Moments of Foreshadowing 6

[Fire Eater]

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They cannot pass

This is what Jon shouts at the Battle of the Wall, with the phrase referencing Gandalf's "You shall not pass;" I think. Gandalf said this before the darkness takes him, and he dies and is resurrected, transforming from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. After the Ides of Marsh, I think Jon will be taken by the darkness, which BR and Bran operate in, and Jon transforms from Jon Snow to Jon Targaryen.

At night, Cersei sometimes heard soft sounds, even in her own apartments. Mice in the walls she would tell herself, no more than that.

Richer still when Varys trained his mice

Arya felt like a sheep, but Harrenhal turned her into a mouse.

Arya will pose as one of Varys's little birds, or mice, and come to know the secret passages of the RK.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They cannot pass

This is Jon at the Battle of the Wall, with the phrase referencing Gandalf's "You shall not pass." Gandalf said this before the darkness takes him, and he dies and is resurrected, transforming from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. After the Ides of Marsh, Jon will be taken by the darkness, which BR and Bran operate in, and Jon transforms from Jon Snow to Jon Targaryen.

I'm kind of extremely leery of using stuff from another work of literature as if it has any sort of intentional connotation here.

[yolkboy]

I'm kind of extremely leery of using stuff from another work of literature as if it has any sort of intentional connotation here.

I agree. Picking up on Grrm's nods and use of intertextuality is one thing - trying to solve ASoIaF mysteries by examining other works is surely folly. To me it shows a misunderstanding in what Grrm is trying to achieve by nodding to his huge mesh of influences.

The idea that an understanding of an outside text by another author is needed to solve Grrms various puzzles does not sit well at all. With a series that's going to top 8000 pages not only does he not need to do that, but he would be cheating his audience if he did so.

[Fire Eater]

I agree. Picking up on Grrm's nods and use of intertextuality is one thing - trying to solve ASoIaF mysteries by examining other works is surely folly. To me it shows a misunderstanding in what Grrm is trying to achieve by nodding to his huge mesh of influences.

The idea that an understanding of an outside text by another author is needed to solve Grrms various puzzles does not sit well at all. With a series that's going to top 8000 pages not only does he not need to do that, but he would be cheating his audience if he did so.

You mean like using the story of King Arthur for where Jon's road leads, or Thorin Oakenshield for Tyrion?

Using words like folly doesn't sit well in an argument since the speaker is introducing his/her personal premises which have no relevance in the argument, no offense. My example wasn't an examination of another work, but of ASOIAF. GRRM borrows plenty from other works, and how would it be cheating? I don't see it being a game with official rules.

[yolkboy]

You mean like using the story of King Arthur for where Jon's road leads, or Thorin Oakenshield for Tyrion?

Using words like folly doesn't sit well in an argument since the speaker is introducing his/her personal premises which have no relevance in the argument, no offense. My example wasn't an examination of another work, but of ASOIAF. GRRM borrows plenty from other works, and how would it be cheating? I don't see it being a game with official rules.

Aren't all literary premises personal opinions, given they relate directly to an interpretation? Your notions of what will happen to Jon (which you present as fact, with very little evidence to back-up - Jon will be taken into the darkness, ) is a personal premise, and based on a prediction via an understanding of a non-ASoIAF text. Grrm does borrow plenty, but thinking you can guess outcomes from his various nods is, in my opinion, folly. If the word 'folly' doesn't sit well with you, you shouldn't be so easily offended. I saw you had this same debate with Le Cygane and from where I was sat, she was completely in the right. And you didn't offend me at all, why would I be offended?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You mean like using the story of King Arthur for where Jon's road leads, or Thorin Oakenshield for Tyrion?

Using words like folly doesn't sit well in an argument since the speaker is introducing his/her personal premises which have no relevance in the argument, no offense. My example wasn't an examination of another work, but of ASOIAF. GRRM borrows plenty from other works, and how would it be cheating? I don't see it being a game with official rules.

The King Arthur story isn't about the story itself, it's about the classical hero's journey and what that entails. It's not exclusive to King Arthur.

As for Thorin Oakenshield subbing for Tyrion, I'm gonna say yes, that's what he means, given that there's no evidence at all that GRRM is intentionally channeling Tolkien or using his work to foreshadow anything.

I'm going to be frank here and say that way too often, you draw conclusions that are extremely tenuous at best and tend to take stuff as a given when it should be hedged as a prediction. "I read such and such and such. Some person will do this. This means this will happen." A lot of your analysis is good and when it is I will say so. But I will also say when I think you're reaching, and using Tolkien as if it has any foreshadowing merit here, like it's a given, is one of those times.

[tze]

With a long hooked blade, he sliced me [Varys] root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched the him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

Sam Stoop's wife says she [Lady Rohanne Webber] sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts.

This is Egg talking about Lady Webber, whose sigil is a spider. Varys is referred to as the Spider, and his castration was in a way, selling his babes unborn with the seven hells imagery tied to the burning brazier. Varys actually wasn't castrated by force but sold his manhood and ability to reproduce as the price to pay for him to learn the black arts of sorcery.

I think the point is to highlight the lack of sorcery practiced by "the spider". Lady Rohanne is not actually a sorceress, despite the stories told about her "powers", just like Varys is not a sorcerer, despite the stories told about his "powers".

A character we've seen "selling" her unborn kid in exchange for the aid of "the black arts" (intentionally or not, before someone jumps in) is Dany. Lady Rohanne is associated with the colors black, red, and silver, just like Dany, and like Dany, she is a widow. Lady Rohanne ends up marrying Ser Eustace Osgrey, whose House's power had greatly diminished from its past glory, and whose sigil is a green-and-gold lion. To me, this foreshadows Dany marrying into a diminished House Tyrell, especially given that it's not the only time we see such a hint: the green-and-gold slippers that are too small for Dany, for example, as well as the too-small "peach" Jorah gives her from the garden in the west in Vaes Tolorro, which I discussed here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96479-jorahs-peach-symbolism-and-foreshadowing/#entry4936389

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

@ tze

I remember I shipped Dany and Loras some time ago since she likes pretty boys that are "bad ass" and he is on Dragonstone which is where she might land but oh well my theory has little to none foreshadowing its just crackpot.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

@ tze

I remember I shipped Dany and Loras some time ago since she likes pretty boys that are "bad ass" and he is on Dragonstone which is where she might land but oh well my theory has little to none foreshadowing its just crackpot.

i think Dany is lacking an important body part......OR IS SHE?!?!

[Fire Eater]

Aren't all literary premises personal opinions, given they relate directly to an interpretation? Your notions of what will happen to Jon (which you present as fact, with very little evidence to back-up - Jon will be taken into the darkness, ) is a personal premise, and based on a prediction via an understanding of a non-ASoIAF text. Grrm does borrow plenty, but thinking you can guess outcomes from his various nods is, in my opinion, folly. If the word 'folly' doesn't sit well with you, you shouldn't be so easily offended. I saw you had this same debate with Le Cygane and from where I was sat, she was completely in the right. And you didn't offend me at all, why would I be offended?

I meant personal premises as in feeling if an idea or argument is stupid or such, I am thinking in terms of trying to persuade someone in an argument, and I think one should avoid words that could taken as denigrating one's argument or opinion. I advise using more scientifically correct terms like inaccurate, or saying "I think" or "in my opinion", like you just did, acknowledging that it is your personal opinion instead of it being taken as to mean matter-of-factly. I never meant to present my theory as fact, and I made some changes to the post.

I had an issue with the way Le Cygne presented her argument. The purpose of debate is to persuade and educate according to the Iroquois, and I don't think calling another's argument "dubious" or "folly" is a good way to persuade someone away from their argument.

Also, let's everyone please stick to the theme of this thread as I don't want any mods to come in.

He did not proclaim you [sandor] Baelor the Blessed come again.

Foreshadowing for Sandor on the QI?

I think the point is to highlight the lack of sorcery practiced by "the spider". Lady Rohanne is not actually a sorceress, despite the stories told about her "powers", just like Varys is not a sorcerer, despite the stories told about his "powers".

A character we've seen "selling" her unborn kid in exchange for the aid of "the black arts" (intentionally or not, before someone jumps in) is Dany. Lady Rohanne is associated with the colors black, red, and silver, just like Dany, and like Dany, she is a widow. Lady Rohanne ends up marrying Ser Eustace Osgrey, whose House's power had greatly diminished from its past glory, and whose sigil is a green-and-gold lion. To me, this foreshadows Dany marrying into a diminished House Tyrell, especially given that it's not the only time we see such a hint: the green-and-gold slippers that are too small for Dany, for example, as well as the too-small "peach" Jorah gives her from the garden in the west in Vaes Tolorro, which I discussed here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96479-jorahs-peach-symbolism-and-foreshadowing/#entry4936389

I don't think Dany will marry into House Tyrell as Cersei would keep Margaery and her friends as hostages, and Cersei will take whataever measures she can to ensure the Tyrells' loyalty. Lady Webber's new husband also has a lion in his sigil, and I think that might provide a clue to Dany's husband, much to the vitriol of a few Dany fans. As to Varys not being a sorcerer, then there is the question of what purpose Varys's story serves. Why would GRRM put it there?

i think Dany is lacking an important body part......OR IS SHE?!?!

:lol:

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

i think Dany is lacking an important body part......OR IS SHE?!?!

:lmao: I know what you mean there.

I think Valyrian "inuman beauty" might make Loras straight.

Or the theory that Dany is a man :leaving:

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

:lmao: I know what you mean there.

I think Valyrian "inuman beauty" might make Loras straight.

Or the theory that Dany is a man :leaving:

or a shemale

[Dagon]

I've been thinking about the Ironborn's religion of "dying and becoming stronger," and Patchface's quote about them riding horses under the sea and mermaids trumpeting their arrival. Makes me think we'll have an Undead Fleet on our hands at some point. (Mermaids =NW, Trumpeting arrival = 3 blasts from the horn.)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

or a shemale

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96325-spoilers-is-daenerys-targaryen-possibly-a-woman/

[Fire Eater]

I dreamed of you Ser Duncan.

[Jaime to Brienne:] I dreamed of you

Daemon II Blackfyre's sigil as John the Fiddler was a golden fiddle quartered with a golden sword. Jaime cut Aerys's throat with a golden sword and Ned found him with it. Alyn Cockshaw, a man with blond hair, and Daemon's old lover since they were young, tries to kill Dunk out of jealousy after Daemon shows interest in Dunk. Brienne in both a parallel and a possible descendant of Dunk is becoming a love interest of Jaime, and I think this foreshadows Jaime's old lover, Cersei, trying to have Brienne killed out of jealousy.

[Little Balerion]

“I’ve brought you a peach,” Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could almost hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

“Fruit and water and shade,” Dany said, her cheeks sticky with peach juice. “The gods were good to bring us to this place.”

This can be interpreted in so many different ways (I guess a lot of GRRM's work can be interpreted in multiple different ways).

1. Jorah offers Dany a peach. Dany accepts it. Jorah and Dany share each others trust. Renly offers Stannis a peach. Stannis refuses it. The trust between them is broken.

2. Jorah offers Dany a peach. The peach makes her a future ally of Highgarden because it symbolizes Highgarden. Stannis refuses to ally with Highgarden, hence refuses the peach.

3. The peach represents 'luxury' as quoted by GRRM in an SSM. Stannis prefers a life of simplicity, hence refuses the peach. Dany chooses a life of luxury hence accepts the peach.

[Newstar]

Lady Rohanne ends up marrying Ser Eustace Osgrey, whose House's power had greatly diminished from its past glory, and whose sigil is a green-and-gold lion. To me, this foreshadows Dany marrying into a diminished House Tyrell, especially given that it's not the only time we see such a hint: the green-and-gold slippers that are too small for Dany, for example, as well as the too-small "peach" Jorah gives her from the garden in the west in Vaes Tolorro, which I discussed here: http://asoiaf.wester...g/#entry4936389

Heh. If half the theories on these threads are right, in between Euron, Victarion, Tyrion, Jon, and now according to tze some or other Tyrell, Dany's going to be a very busy lady in the matrimonial department over the next few books. :D

There was an interesting series of posts a while ago about how "green" signifies danger/ill intent in Dany's arc. That suggests to me that she's going to wind up going against the Tyrells, not allying with them.

[Little Balerion]

Heh. If half the theories on these threads are right, in between Euron, Victarion, Tyrion, Jon, and now according to tze some or other Tyrell, Dany's going to be a very busy lady in the matrimonial department over the next few books. :D

.

You are right! :drunk: Unless she goes and marries another Harzoo again, and surprises us all!

[cocoalover1956]

Nothing will happen to you. Nothing. I could not stand it. They took Ned, and your sweet brothers. Sansa is married, Arya is lost, my father’s dead . . . if anything befell you, I would go mad, Robb. You are all I have left. You are all the north has left.

Poor Cat

[PeterPaulGualtieri]

Some Dunk & Egg foreshadowing:

Egg: "I won't need to go into the castle, will I?"

Dunk: "Why not? One day I mean to live in a castle. I hope to win a place above the salt before I'm done."

Well, eventually Dunk did live in a castle and, being the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, he definitely won a place above the salt.