Jump to content

Sansa and birds: a false lead?


Lady Howell

Recommended Posts

Just ruminating on this as I read this thread.... Sansa has been likened to a winged wolf (a wolf with bat wings) after fleeing, post the purple wedding. A dragon has wings much like a bat as well and is a vicious carnivore not unlike a wolf...


Like I said, just throwing that out there in correlation with symbolic imagery and not necessarily speculating she could be one head of the dragon.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa is LF's little bird, she will become a great pragmatist manipulator who doesnt care if she has to sell littleboy if she can get to her goal.

One can hope, one can hope.

Can warged animals warg into their people? IOW, can there be a bit of Lady inside Sansa?

I think these are great points about Sansa as the bird of prey who will rule from the Vale, with her little bird spies. I'm a fan.

Well, she hasn't exhibiting wolfish behaviour or thoughts so far. OTOH, I think Sansa is a girl who wields a huge difference between what she let's everyone think of her and what she actually carves for. I hope the Sansa who almost threw Joffrey off the battlements is closer to Sansa's deepest desires than the Sansa who goes to Cersei in AGOT or chooses to let LF kiss her instead of confronting him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Well, she hasn't exhibiting wolfish behaviour or thoughts so far. OTOH, I think Sansa is a girl who wields a huge difference between what she let's everyone think of her and what she actually carves for. I hope the Sansa who almost threw Joffrey off the battlements is closer to Sansa's deepest desires than the Sansa who goes to Cersei in AGOT or chooses to let LF kiss her instead of confronting him.

How are those two things similar? Sansa going to Cersei in AGOT was naive and foolish. Sansa letting LF kiss her is a survival strategy. She is socially completely under his power and has nowhere to go, what would confronting him - as she did in ASOS - do for her? It could only make him more aggressive, she's already seen that he doesn't care about her protests when she confronted him after the first unwanted kiss - when Lysa was still alive and before he had complete power over her.

And what does this have to do with Sansa's deepest desires? It's very clear, in fact, that it has nothing. Sansa is keeping her deepest desires hidden from LF, and he has no idea about them. In his mind, she's still the same 11-year old girl who would be into marrying Harry as she was into marrying Joffrey. Meanwhile, she's keeping her courtesy shield and meeting his sexual advances with passive aggressive mix of indifference and quasi-naivete, in a similar way as she met Tyrion with passive aggressive quasi-submissiveness. In LF's case, she not only acts "dutiful" (as with Tyrion) but also 'plays dumb' as if she doesn't even understand the sexual nature of his advances, even though she clearly has to know what's going on (it's not like she didn't feel he was a creep when she was just 11, or that she didn't learn about his lust for her when he kissed her, and she's also able to easily see when a man is interested in a woman - i.e. Lothor and Mya; she also blushes when Myranda asks her about LF's 'finger'). Her lack of sexual thoughts about LF (despite the facts that he has seen him naked, heard him have sex with Lysa, and has been exposed to his unwanted kisses!) may be a part of the attempt to keep thinking about him as her "father" and friend (both in order to be able to play the part of Alayne convincingly, and in order to keep herself from having to face in what an awful situation she is), but it can also be seen as another method of resistance: it's as if she's refusing to see LF in a sexual way, no matter how much he tries to groom her as a lover. (Which contrasts strongly to how she builds up the romanticized and eroticized version of her relationship with Sandor, vividly imagining a kiss with him that never happened, while she's constantly ignoring the unwanted kisses by LF that did and do happen.)

Also, what do you consider "wolfish behavior"?

These are some of the things characteristic of real life wolf behavior:

- living in packs, with strong family bonds,

- strong hierarchy/social order with roles such as alpha pair, subordinate wolves, and juvenile,

- mating behavior: affectionate behavior between the pair, strong monogamous relationship; wolves often mate for life (not always, although that's a popular myth; serial monogamy is also possible).

- if the alpha female does not want to mate with a certain male, she will remain sexually unresponsive and repel him with growls and snaps of her jaws.

I'll give you that, Sansa does not repel unwanted males in aggressive way, when such aggressiveness wouldn't help her, since she's socially at their power. But she's said a clear 'no' to the 'marital duty' already, and her own "courtesy is a lady's armour" sexual unresponsiveness can be as efficient.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My mistake I was thinking TV

You're not REALLY wrong. House Baelish has the Titan of Bravos for a sigil. Peter Baelish has taken the mockingbird as his person sigil. He stamps letters with a mockingbird seal, and uses a mockingbird clasp to fasten his cloak, and sometimes wears clothing with an embroidered mockingbird.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(snip)

Er... well, I was answering to the notion, based on the ADWD's prologue, that Sansa's brief relationship with Lady could have changed her and added a layer of wolfish behaviour. What does it mean? Well, aggressiveness - which, in the face of trouble, is a good thing. She's shown that when she was about to kill Joffrey but it's either absent or repressed from there on. With good reason, probably, but even in her thoughts she's not thinking aggressively, or as a hunter. She's mostly behaving like prey trying to escape predators, not the other way around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Also, what do you consider "wolfish behavior"?

These are some of the things characteristic of real life wolf behavior:

- living in packs, with strong family bonds,

- strong hierarchy/social order with roles such as alpha pair, subordinate wolves, and juvenile,

- mating behavior: affectionate behavior between the pair, strong monogamous relationship; wolves often mate for life (not always, although that's a popular myth; serial monogamy is also possible).

- if the alpha female does not want to mate with a certain male, she will remain sexually unresponsive and repel him with growls and snaps of her jaws.

I'll give you that, Sansa does not repel unwanted males in aggressive way, when such aggressiveness wouldn't help her, since she's socially at their power. But she's said a clear 'no' to the 'marital duty' already, and her own "courtesy is a lady's armour" sexual unresponsiveness can be as efficient.

This is an interesting list of "wolfish traits", and I think it supports the claim that Sansa is not displaying "wolfish" behavior. She's been cut off from her pack. She resisted becoming integrated into the hierarchy/social order at KL. Her marriage completely lacks affection - the pairing is extremely weak. You could make a case that Sansa is in no way an Alpha Female so far, so that point may not apply; how do subordinate females react to unwanted advances amongst wolves?

Losing Lady seems to definitely have weakened Sansa's wolfish development. (She has never really expressed a desire to tear out her enemies' throats, has she?) Her Courtesy Armor could be compared to acting like a "cold fish", thus bringing out her Tully traits. (Fish are often described as being armored, due to their scales.) I'm not sure what "bat-like" behavior would be, to be honest; except for that one rumor that was quoted, Sansa doesn't seem all that "batty" to me.

SR, as a representative of House Arryn, could represent a Baby Bird, and you could interpret Sansa's protective attitude toward him as taking on a Mama Bird role. And I still think that people underestimate the significance of that blue and silver gown in her closet at the Eyrie. Those are Mallister colors (silver eagle on blue), and she thinks it would suit her very well. I suspect there is a Mallister either in her past (Rickard Stark's wife, thus her fourth grandparent) or her future (a pairing with Patrek Mallister).

So no, bird symbolism for Sansa is not a false lead IMO. It is significant, and will become more so as her story progresses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe it means she'll become a member of House Baelish, whose sigil is a little bird. And she might do that by publicly assuming the (somehow legitimized) identity of Alayne Baelish forever or as LF's wife or widow.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa is the little bird, repeating what they taught her. Watch, absorb, repeat. Once her teachers were her mother and Septa teaching her to recite pretty pleasantries.

Then her teacher became Cersei and now LF, they've taught her something different to repeat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an interesting list of "wolfish traits", and I think it supports the claim that Sansa is not displaying "wolfish" behavior. She's been cut off from her pack. She resisted becoming integrated into the hierarchy/social order at KL. Her marriage completely lacks affection - the pairing is extremely weak. You could make a case that Sansa is in no way an Alpha Female so far, so that point may not apply; how do subordinate females react to unwanted advances amongst wolves?

Losing Lady seems to definitely have weakened Sansa's wolfish development. (She has never really expressed a desire to tear out her enemies' throats, has she?) Her Courtesy Armor could be compared to acting like a "cold fish", thus bringing out her Tully traits. (Fish are often described as being armored, due to their scales.) I'm not sure what "bat-like" behavior would be, to be honest; except for that one rumor that was quoted, Sansa doesn't seem all that "batty" to me.

SR, as a representative of House Arryn, could represent a Baby Bird, and you could interpret Sansa's protective attitude toward him as taking on a Mama Bird role. And I still think that people underestimate the significance of that blue and silver gown in her closet at the Eyrie. Those are Mallister colors (silver eagle on blue), and she thinks it would suit her very well. I suspect there is a Mallister either in her past (Rickard Stark's wife, thus her fourth grandparent) or her future (a pairing with Patrek Mallister).

So no, bird symbolism for Sansa is not a false lead IMO. It is significant, and will become more so as her story progresses.

Sorry, what? Her marriage was forced at sword point, and she did everything in her power as a captive to resist. In fact, her showing backbone and not agreeing to be an obedient wife/prize for Tyrion is why a lot of fools dislike her. So how on Earth does that support your argument?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think so. Its done too much to be a red herring. The Air and Birds motifs are the opposite to Arya's Water and 'beasts' motifs. Still think Arya's warging cats echo the Children's cat's eyes.

It may not lead her to the Arryns though, it may lead her to Raventree Hall.

Okay, I'm curious. What do you think could happen at Raventree Hall? I know it's still loyal to the North and the Starks and has begrudgingly surrendered.

Do you see a major ally there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sansa is more fox than wolf tbh

it has so many facets, this! on the surface level, you have the "Foxy mamma, hubba hubba" foxiness. But also the fox is a more wily and crafty animal than the wolf which is more forthright and strength-in-numbers, no? So she may use foxlike tactics to avoid the fate of the lone wolf we hear so much about. Wolves don't walk in marble halls, but she still might. Get ahead in life and get herself some chicken by living like a fox, whereas a Stark wolf would stroll right into the henhouse and get caught like Ned did. (or a wolf might try the public reveal that Baelish suggested to her). A fox can climb trees, which is closer to being a bird (for those in love with airborn bird sansa). And a fox outfoxes the hunter sometimes! Also, this fox hint comes to us from Sansa_Stark herself! I can't stress enough the significance of that!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, I'm curious. What do you think could happen at Raventree Hall? I know it's still loyal to the North and the Starks and has begrudgingly surrendered.

Do you see a major ally there?

Well:

Wouldn't be the first Sansa Stark to marry a Lord Blackwood. Cregan Stark's daughter Sansa did as well (not entirely sure if it was Sansa, or another daughter). And was most likely Bloodraven's grandmother.

As Hoster Blackwood said, history repeats itself.

It's from the snippets of the world book GRRM leaked last autumn.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102903-the-river-lords/page-2

Although it may have been Cregan's grandaughter and not daughter. If Sansa is to claim Harrenhal or the Riverlands, a riverlands match would be great for her and would work into her bird imagery. Not to mention, they are First Men who worship the old gods. Hoster and Sansa would be lovely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, what? Her marriage was forced at sword point, and she did everything in her power as a captive to resist. In fact, her showing backbone and not agreeing to be an obedient wife/prize for Tyrion is why a lot of fools dislike her. So how on Earth does that support your argument?

Sansa never "repel(s) him with growls and snaps of her jaws." Yes, she's unresponsive, but in an entirely different manner than what has been described as "wolfish". That is why I characterized her response to Tyrion as being a "cold fish". IMO, the first time Sansa displays anything like "wolfish" behavior is when she protects Sweetrobin on the way down the mountain in aFfC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...