Crackpot Time! With Mance the Human: Why I think Mance's part in the pink letter is BS

[Jon of the Dead]

According to Mance, his plan to infiltrate Winterfell was inspired by Bael the Bard. Or at least, that's what he tells Jon:

“Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the

Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her.

“Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them.

Of course, this conversation takes place in aSoS, before Mance's second trip to Winterfell, and this second time it seems that he did follow Bael's story to the letter:

- Abel is an anagram of Bael

- He disguised as a bard, like Bael (duh)

- This time he did steal a Stark girl (a fake Stark, but still).

- The original Bael left a blue rose behind. Mance left Squirrel, disguised as Jeyne. I don't remember any particular connection between Squirrel and a rose (but maybe you clever people can fill in the blanks), but it is ironic that the Brotherhood called Arya a squirrel in aSoS, and now there's a "squirrel" pretending to be Arya

Edit: Mance didn't leave a rose behind, but lots of the spearwives had tree-related names (Rowan, Holly, Myrtle, Willow). Interesting

Anyway, Mance did everything like Bael at this point, except for one thing: he got himself caught. Or did he?

Mance is way too clever and cagey to let himself caught by Ramsey. He knew tensions were high in the castle and he had time to take precautions. He could've slipped easily from the main hall while everyone was fighting or chasing Theon. And when Theon asks Squirrel about Abel she says: “Abel can fend for himself"

So I think Mance did exactly what Bael did: he hid in the crypts. And Ramsey couldn't find him because no one knew the entrance to the crypts, only Lady Dustin, and it was only because she asked Theon. Her men had been looking for the crypts for days with no luck. And I don't think Lady Dustin would tell Ramsey about that.

As for the intel on Mance's true identity, Ramsey could've gotten it from any of the spearwives left behind. The mention of Mance in the pink letter is a lie, I think, and a way for Ramsey to humilliate Jon in front of the NIght's Watch, telling him that he lied.

Now, I think Mance could've gotten the information on how to enter to the crypts from Theon too, as one of his chapters end with Theon presumably going to "sing" to Abel, so we don't know how much Theon told him, but I bet Mance asked for secret ways out of Winterfell and the crypts.

OR there's another possibility and now we are entering...

CRACKPOT TERRITORY!

Ever since I read this SSM thing...

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

"Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after."

...I've been wondering what was scaring Hodor in aGoT, and one of the exclamations I came up with was this: Mance was hiding there after Robert's feast

As we know, Mance tells Jon he joined Robert's freeriders to come to the feast. And one man among a lot of freeriders can go unnoticed, but one single man going north from Winterfell on his own can rise suspicions, especially when the First Ranger Benjen is going north too

After the feast, everyone went south. Everyone except Tyrion, Benjen and Jon:

They had left Winterfell on the same day as the king, amidst all the commotion

of the royal departure, riding out to the sound of men shouting and horses snorting, to the rattle of wagons and the groaning of the queen's huge wheelhouse, as a light snow flurried about them. The kingsroad was just beyond the sprawl of castle and town. There the banners and the wagons and the columns of knights and freeriders turned south, taking the tumult with them, while Tyrion turned north with Benjen Stark and his nephew.

Only those 3 (and Tyrion's 2 servants) went north from Winterfell. Mance could've joined Robert's party and then discreetely leave and turn north, but there are 2 problems with this:

1. Ned was riding there too, and even if Ned didn't know Mance by sight, Mance wasn't protected there by the guest right, as he was in Winterfell. So it was kind of risky

2. This theory wouldn't be fun if he had :P

OK, and now there's this: Hodor wasn't acting strange only on the crypts, but also around the stables and it was because Bran's attempted killer was there, as Hal says:

"Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy's been acting queer, but simple as he is . . ." Hal shook his head.

So we know Hodor reacted weird at a stranger's presence. Bran says Hodor reacted strange when he tried to make him go to the crypts, and Summer reacted oddly too:

He just stood on the top step and said 'Hodor,' like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch

Summer stalked out in the echoing gloom, then stopped, lifted his head, and sniffed the chill dead air. He bared his teeth and crept backward, eyes glowing golden in the light of the maester's torch

But then in aCoK Hodor and Summer practically live in the crypts for quite a while. So, if Mance was there, and he didn't want to leave in the midst of Robert, Ned and Benjen, he could've left after Robb marched the bannermen and marched south. Or, even if this is stretching it, he could've left after the harvest feast, maybe he was even the singer that joined Manderly's ranks:

Lord Wyman’s musicians played bravely and well, but harp and fiddle and horn were soon drowned beneath a tide of talk and laughter, the clash of cup and plate, and the snarling of hounds fighting for table scraps. The singer sang good songs, “Iron Lances” and “The Burning of the Ships” and “The Bear and the Maiden Fair,”

As to how he could've fed himself all that time, maybe Osha fed him in secret, since she worked in the kitchens (remember this is a crackpot)

But if he had left earlier, say around the time Robb marched north, then there's space for another small crackpot of mine: that the arrowheads Jon found near the Fist came from Luwyn's jar full of them (but that's for another time)

Anyway, to sum up:

- Ramsey lied about having Mance; he's hiding in the crypts

- Crackpot: Mance knew the crypts from before, because he hid there after Robert's feast

ETA: Sorry for the weird random bold font in some quotes, I don't know what happened :blush:

[Marwi]

I really like your connection with the crypts, it doesn't collide against anything I recall by know and it isn't far fetched nor an attempt of plot twist.. just an addition of a detail that fits well in the picture and - if not true - does not cause any harm. :)

I wondered about Hodor fear too in the past, never thought of Mance though.. good catch.

For me it is a: Yes.

[Jon of the Dead]

I really like your connection with the crypts, it doesn't collide against anything I recall by know and it isn't far fetched nor an attempt of plot twist.. just an addition of a detail that fits well in the picture and - if not true - does not cause any harm. :)

I wondered about Hodor fear too in the past, never thought of Mance though.. good catch.

For me it is a: Yes.

Thank you. I still think there's way more to the crypts, especially in the mysterious lower level

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

dude! I was just looking at that SSM the other day. I thought Hodor was afraid of ned's ghost or something but this is a much better explanation

And if you think about it, mance never says how he came back to the wall, just how he left

And i agree about mance hiding from ramsey in the crypts too, unless he wrote the pink letter

Anyway, great theory! :cheers:

[Arya kiddin']

Jon of the Dead, this was a good read. I agree with almost all of it, this doesn't sound crackpot at all. And is a proper explanation of why Hodor the brave will fear the crypts just that one time.

It can have nice repercussions as well. If the crypts have something that have something to do with Jon's parentage, and Mance does finds it, it will make things hella interesting....:D

[Jon of the Dead]

Jon of the Dead, this was a good read. I agree with almost all of it, this doesn't sound crackpot at all. And is a proper explanation of why Hodor the brave will fear the crypts just that one time.

It can have nice repercussions as well. If the crypts have something that have something to do with Jon's parentage, and Mance does finds it, it will make things hella interesting.... :D

Thanks :P There's also a connection between the blue roses (Jon, Lyanna) and Bael (Mance). In fact, I can get why some people think Mance is Jon's dad, since there's that bit that Alfie Allen said of Jon's father being somewhat like a Star Wars case, and then Bael's son unknowingly killing his father, and the blue roses. I mean, I don't buy that Mance is his dad, but there are some interesting paralellisms.

In fact the whole story of Bael is full of neat little bits, like the woman jumping off a tower (Ashara) and the guy caught and forced to wear cloaks of skin

[Arya kiddin']

Thanks :P There's also a connection between the blue roses (Jon, Lyanna) and Bael (Mance). In fact, I can get why some people think Mance is Jon's dad, since there's that bit that Alfie Allen said of Jon's father being somewhat like a Star Wars case, and then Bael's son unknowingly killing his father, and the blue roses. I mean, I don't buy that Mance is his dad, but there are some interesting paralellisms.

In fact the whole story of Bael is full of neat little bits, like the woman jumping off a tower (Ashara) and the guy caught and forced to wear cloaks of skin

Wow. never really thought that much. :shocked:

http://t.qkme.me/3pcnb1.jpg

[kiasyd]

I like this theory, seems plausible to me, but I have one question: Aren't the crypts supposed to be locked? I mean, during Robert's feast?

[Jon of the Dead]

I like this theory, seems plausible to me, but I have one question: Aren't the crypts supposed to be locked? I mean, during Robert's feast?

Hmm, I don't remember. Ned and Robert went down there as soon as Robert arrived, right?

I think they were blocked or something in aDwD, after the fire, and that's why Lady Dustin's men couldn't find them, but Theon knew how to enter

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Thanks :P There's also a connection between the blue roses (Jon, Lyanna) and Bael (Mance). In fact, I can get why some people think Mance is Jon's dad, since there's that bit that Alfie Allen said of Jon's father being somewhat like a Star Wars case, and then Bael's son unknowingly killing his father, and the blue roses. I mean, I don't buy that Mance is his dad, but there are some interesting paralellisms.

In fact the whole story of Bael is full of neat little bits, like the woman jumping off a tower (Ashara) and the guy caught and forced to wear cloaks of skin

:eek:

I hadn't made that connection either. The lord of winterfell, bael's son, was the one forced to wear cloaks of skin, right? As a punishment for kinslaying?

[Jon of the Dead]

:eek:

I hadn't made that connection either. The lord of winterfell, bael's son, was the one forced to wear cloaks of skin, right? As a punishment for kinslaying?

Yep. Well, I think he was actually killed and his skin was peeled off and turned into a cloak.

[PeterPaulGualtieri]

According to Mance, his plan to infiltrate Winterfell was inspired by Bael the Bard. Or at least, that's what he tells Jon:

Of course, this conversation takes place in aSoS, before Mance's second trip to Winterfell, and this second time it seems that he did follow Bael's story to the letter:

- Abel is an anagram of Bael

- He disguised as a bard, like Bael (duh)

- This time he did steal a Stark girl (a fake Stark, but still).

- The original Bael left a blue rose behind. Mance left Squirrel, disguised as Jeyne. I don't remember any particular connection between Squirrel and a rose (but maybe you clever people can fill in the blanks), but it is ironic that the Brotherhood called Arya a squirrel in aSoS, and now there's a "squirrel" pretending to be Arya

Edit: Mance didn't leave a rose behind, but lots of the spearwives had tree-related names (Rowan, Holly, Myrtle, Willow). Interesting

Anyway, Mance did everything like Bael at this point, except for one thing: he got himself caught. Or did he?

Mance is way too clever and cagey to let himself caught by Ramsey. He knew tensions were high in the castle and he had time to take precautions. He could've slipped easily from the main hall while everyone was fighting or chasing Theon. And when Theon asks Squirrel about Abel she says: “Abel can fend for himself"

So I think Mance did exactly what Bael did: he hid in the crypts. And Ramsey couldn't find him because no one knew the entrance to the crypts, only Lady Dustin, and it was only because she asked Theon. Her men had been looking for the crypts for days with no luck. And I don't think Lady Dustin would tell Ramsey about that.

As for the intel on Mance's true identity, Ramsey could've gotten it from any of the spearwives left behind. The mention of Mance in the pink letter is a lie, I think, and a way for Ramsey to humilliate Jon in front of the NIght's Watch, telling him that he lied.

Now, I think Mance could've gotten the information on how to enter to the crypts from Theon too, as one of his chapters end with Theon presumably going to "sing" to Abel, so we don't know how much Theon told him, but I bet Mance asked for secret ways out of Winterfell and the crypts.

OR there's another possibility and now we are entering...

CRACKPOT TERRITORY!

Ever since I read this SSM thing...

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

"Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after."

...I've been wondering what was scaring Hodor in aGoT, and one of the exclamations I came up with was this: Mance was hiding there after Robert's feast

As we know, Mance tells Jon he joined Robert's freeriders to come to the feast. And one man among a lot of freeriders can go unnoticed, but one single man going north from Winterfell on his own can rise suspicions, especially when the First Ranger Benjen is going north too

After the feast, everyone went south. Everyone except Tyrion, Benjen and Jon:

Only those 3 (and Tyrion's 2 servants) went north from Winterfell. Mance could've joined Robert's party and then discreetely leave and turn north, but there are 2 problems with this:

1. Ned was riding there too, and even if Ned didn't know Mance by sight, Mance wasn't protected there by the guest right, as he was in Winterfell. So it was kind of risky

2. This theory wouldn't be fun if he had :P

OK, and now there's this: Hodor wasn't acting strange only on the crypts, but also around the stables and it was because Bran's attempted killer was there, as Hal says:

So we know Hodor reacted weird at a stranger's presence. Bran says Hodor reacted strange when he tried to make him go to the crypts, and Summer reacted oddly too:

But then in aCoK Hodor and Summer practically live in the crypts for quite a while. So, if Mance was there, and he didn't want to leave in the midst of Robert, Ned and Benjen, he could've left after Robb marched the bannermen and marched south. Or, even if this is stretching it, he could've left after the harvest feast, maybe he was even the singer that joined Manderly's ranks:

As to how he could've fed himself all that time, maybe Osha fed him in secret, since she worked in the kitchens (remember this is a crackpot)

But if he had left earlier, say around the time Robb marched north, then there's space for another small crackpot of mine: that the arrowheads Jon found near the Fist came from Luwyn's jar full of them (but that's for another time)

Anyway, to sum up:

- Ramsey lied about having Mance; he's hiding in the crypts

- Crackpot: Mance knew the crypts from before, because he hid there after Robert's feast

ETA: Sorry for the weird random bold font in some quotes, I don't know what happened :blush:

Well done, Jon of the Dead. I'm at the point in AGoT where Bran starts dreaming of The Ned so I will look for all you've pointed out on my re-read. :wideeyed:

[Jon of the Dead]

Well done, Jon of the Dead. I'm at the point in AGoT where Bran starts dreaming of The Ned so I will look for all you've pointed out on my re-read. :wideeyed:

Please comment if you find something interesting, I really can't get enough of the crypts :P

[Iron-born]

Cool theory, I like it.

Maybe Mance stayed in the crypts to look for something. There is a lower part that Theon mentioned, iirc

[jet199]

There is a lower part that Theon mentioned, iirc

I thought Ramsay cut that off?

[Iron-born]

I thought Ramsay cut that off?

Not that lower part! :huh:

[PeterPaulGualtieri]

Please comment if you find something interesting, I really can't get enough of the crypts :P

You got it. Will do. :cool4:

[jkim2179]

First time posting, like the crackpot but one small issue. Holly, one of the spearwives, asks Theon to show her where the crypts are. I assume she was asking on behalf of Mance/Abel. I guess you could also argue then that Mance forgot or that due to the destruction of Winterfell, he could not find it anymore. But Mance is a smart guy and as a former ranger, I would think he's good about finding his way around.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Definitely enjoyed this one... Here's a crackpot on top of a crackpot. What if Mance finds something in the Crypts that points to Jon's heritage :)

Also, could Mance/Abel be the Hooded Man?

[Jon of the Dead]

First time posting, like the crackpot but one small issue. Holly, one of the spearwives, asks Theon to show her where the crypts are. I assume she was asking on behalf of Mance/Abel. I guess you could also argue then that Mance forgot or that due to the destruction of Winterfell, he could not find it anymore. But Mance is a smart guy and as a former ranger, I would think he's good about finding his way around.

You're right yeah, the spearwives were very interested in how Theon took Winterfell, in case there was a secret entrance, and in the crypts. Well, it's just more evidence for the part of Ramsey lying, I think :P

Definitely enjoyed this one... Here's a crackpot on top of a crackpot. What if Mance finds something in the Crypts that points to Jon's heritage :)

Also, could Mance/Abel be the Hooded Man?

I like that, about Jon's dream of going to the crypts and Bran's dream where Ned was in the crypts and was sad about something to do with Jon.

Could there be something hidden in Lyanna's tomb?

I don't think Mance is the Hooded Man because he seemed to be the one orquestrating the other murders (with the spearwives) and one spearwife said they didn't kill the Walder boy.

I think the Hooded Man is Benjen and there could be some evidence on that