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Ramsay Bolton (Snow)


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#1 Jace Martell

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:27 AM

So i don´t understand one thing, Ramsay married Lady Hornwood or something like that and then killed her, and all this made that Ramsay was caught but changed place with Reek ending up in Winterfell with Theon. Can u explain me that story a bit better, i don't understand why he married that Lady and why he killed her. Thank you :)



#2 Mad Monkey

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:36 AM

If I remember it right, the first time we meet Hornwood is when she comes to Bran to get help with dealing with all of the creeps and weirdos who are hanging around her. Because she is a childless widow, there are a lot of men (Mors Umber, Ramsay Snow, Wyman Manderly) who all want to marry her so that they can steal her land from her.

 

Bran, Maester Luwin, and Rodrik Cassel spend a few chapters spitballing ideas about who she should marry but they never get to come up with one recommendation because Ramsay Snow kidnaps her and marries her by force. The reason he did this was because marrying her would make him her closest male relative and heir; and then, when she died, he would inherit her lands and become Lord of the Hornwood holdings.

 

Of course, this is a highly criminal way to get land even in the North and once Winterfell hears about this they send soldiers out to arrest Ramsay and his accomplice. In the confusion, Ramsay tricks the authorities by dressing as his servant (and having his servant dress as him) -- they kill the servant and take Ramsay into custody (believing him to the servant) so that King Robb Stark can question him about what happened to Lady Hornwood after he returns to Winterfell.

 

Does that make sense?


Edited by Mad Monkey, 20 October 2013 - 10:37 AM.


#3 grasspisser

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

He married her using force to claim her lands, and then he started torturing her by skinning her fingers. I'm not sure if she died because she ate her fingers or because he killed her another way



#4 Longspear Ryk

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:40 AM

I still think rodrik shoulda just married her and stopped being a baby

#5 Kasporio

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:41 AM

She was not skinned.

Just left starving to death.



#6 Balaurderaa

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

Ramsay didn't kill her. He had no incentive, to he just left her to die by locking her in her room and neglecting to feed her (as a consequence she ate her fingers because she was so hungry).

 

He married her so that he could become Lord of the Hornwood (one of the many things he later styles himself) since she had no other relatives having lost her husband and son at the Whispering Wood.

 

After the news of the manner of Lady Hornwoods death spread Rodrick Cassel sent a force down from Winterfell to arrest him. Minutes before they had arrived Ramsay and Reek (Heke) had completed one of there 'hunts' and Ramsay was allowing Reek to 'have his way whilst it was still warm'. When Ramsay saw the Winterfell men on the horizon he ordered Reek to switch closed with him-covered himself in some filth and pretended he was Reek-allowing the real Reek to be killed because Rodrick thought he was Ramsay.

 

Rodrick planned to execute 'Reek' too but 'Reek' agreed to be a witness to Ramsays crimes (In case Roose kicked up a fuss about his son being executed) and so he brought him to Winterfell to remain captive till the war ended.



#7 Danelle

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:13 AM

So i don´t understand one thing, Ramsay married Lady Hornwood or something like that and then killed her, and all this made that Ramsay was caught but changed place with Reek ending up in Winterfell with Theon. Can u explain me that story a bit better, i don't understand why he married that Lady and why he killed her. Thank you :)

  1. Domeric Bolton, Roose's only heir dies.
  2. Ramsay arrives at Dreadfort. The Bastard Boys are more than just Ramsay's friends, they are Roose's spies.
  3. The Wotfk begins and Roose follows Robb Stark, his King.Ramsay is left behind.
  4. Jaime Lannister faces Robb Stark in battle and attempts to kill him. He fails but he kills Daryn Hornwood, Lady Donella's son. Her husband had died during the war as well.
  5. During the Harvest Feast at Winterfell Lady Donella expresses her concern over Ramsay. She is a wealthy widow during wartime, which makes her even more vulnerable. She is aware of Ramsay's reputation and notices that he is gathering troops. Since Ramsay refuses to explain himself to a woman Lady Donella becomes suspicious. Several Northern lords would be eager to marry Lady Donella, because she is quite wealthy and without any heirs. Umbers and Manderlys are likely candidates but Lady Donella would much rather prefer to marry a man like Ser Rodrik, who refuses.At some point there is the suggestion of marrying Lady Donella to a Frey or a Blackwood in an attempt to strengthen the bonds between North and Riverlands. The Harvest Feast ends and all the lords and ladies return home.
  6. Lady Donella is abducted by Ramsey, before she even reaches home.
  7. Ramsay forces her to marry him, thus gaining access to her fortune.
  8. But Lord Manderly takes Hornwood, so as to ensure that Ramsay never seizes the castle. Lady Donella is related to the Manderlys.
  9. Lady Donella is locked in a tower and is forced to starve to death. She is found dead, blood around her mouth and fingers missing.
  10. Ser Rodrik decides to find and punish Ramsay.
  11. Ser Rodrik finds Ramsay and Reek.
  12. Ramsay had switched clothes with Reek. 
  13. Ser Rodrik kills Reek-he believes he is Ramsay and arrests Ramsay-whom he believes he is Reek.
  14. Ramsay is a prisoner at Winterfell
  15. Theon Greyjoy takes Winterfell, frees Ramsay and follows his advise.
  16. Ramsay betrays Theon, burns Winterfell.

 

Basically Ramsay took advantage of the delicate balance in the North during the war. The vast majority of men had followed Robb to his campaign. If anything, wars make women widows and children orphans. Lady Donella lost in the same period her husband and son. She was too proud to marry immediately a Manderly or an Umber but she was clever to realise the threat that Ramsay posed to her.

Ramsay married her, ensuring that he could claim his lands, tortured her because he is a sadist and had her killed because that would mean that he inherits the Hornwood lands.

 

The Donella Hornwood affair was a combination of political ambition and sadism.



#8 tinyskeeveuk

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:15 AM

Out of interest, do you think if Rodrik would have married her it would have changed anything? Or would Ramsey just have killed Rodrik and forced LH to marry him still?



#9 Balaurderaa

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:18 AM

Out of interest, do you think if Rodrik would have married her it would have changed anything? Or would Ramsey just have killed Rodrik and forced LH to marry him still?

 

Maybe not he might have thought with Rodrik being a friend of the KITN it wasn't worth the risk. He might have bided his time.

 

He took Hornwood because there was no one to stop him and he didn't think there would be any repercussions with all the Hornwoods dead



#10 Blueberry Stark

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:30 AM

She was not skinned.

Just left starving to death.

Actually, it's assumed in the north that she was locked up and starved, thus she ate her fingers. Knowing Ramsey, I think that he probably flayed her fingers; however, we really don't know for sure except that he left her locked away to die.



#11 RumHam

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 12:45 PM

Actually, it's assumed in the north that she was locked up and starved, thus she ate her fingers. Knowing Ramsey, I think that he probably flayed her fingers; however, we really don't know for sure except that he left her locked away to die.

 

I'd be with you if it weren't for the fact that her mouth was all bloody.

 

Bran had heard men saying that when Ser Rodrik had smashed down the door he found her with her mouth all bloody and her fingers chewed off.

 



#12 Tywin Manderly

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:48 PM

Rodrik Cassel should have, for her safety, kept Lady Hornwood at Winterfell or send her to White Harbor with Wyman Manderly who is related to her.



#13 Blueberry Stark

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:55 PM

 

I'd be with you if it weren't for the fact that her mouth was all bloody.

 

True, but I get the feeling that he flayed her fingers and THEN she ate them. In the first Reek chapter of ADwD:

"'There's blood on your mouth,' Ramsay observed. 'Have you been chewing on your fingers again Reek?'"

This takes place after the Walders take Theon from the dungeon, and Theon is afraid that Ramsay will be enraged that he's eaten the rat he caught. Theon then remembers that "Reek [Theon] had tried to bite off his own ring finger once, to stop it hurting after they had stripped the skin from it." He goes on to remember that the pain of the flaying had been so agonizing, worse than being whipped or racked even, that he tried to chew off his flayed finger in order to alleviate the pain. Of course, he subsequently loses another toe for not playing Ramsay's "game" correctly.

 

It's definitely ambiguous, but I think that it's very possible that Lady Hornwood gnawed her fingers off post-flaying.



#14 RumHam

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

Yeah I suppose it's possible.



#15 Jace Martell

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 03:38 PM

Yeah guys thanks a lot, now I remember everything. Ramsay is really tricky and master-mid, he took advantage of all the bad situation ..

#16 Sweet-N-SourRobin

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 04:10 PM

True, but I get the feeling that he flayed her fingers and THEN she ate them. In the first Reek chapter of ADwD:

"'There's blood on your mouth,' Ramsay observed. 'Have you been chewing on your fingers again Reek?'"

This takes place after the Walders take Theon from the dungeon, and Theon is afraid that Ramsay will be enraged that he's eaten the rat he caught. Theon then remembers that "Reek [Theon] had tried to bite off his own ring finger once, to stop it hurting after they had stripped the skin from it." He goes on to remember that the pain of the flaying had been so agonizing, worse than being whipped or racked even, that he tried to chew off his flayed finger in order to alleviate the pain. Of course, he subsequently loses another toe for not playing Ramsay's "game" correctly.

 

It's definitely ambiguous, but I think that it's very possible that Lady Hornwood gnawed her fingers off post-flaying.

 

Since ADWD's release and that passage I think it is almost certain Lady Hornwood actually had her fingers flayed and she chewed on/bit off what was left of them afterwards in order to alleviate the pain, than eating them out of hunger (which in retrospect doesn't quite add up.  At least, not as well as the first possibility does).



#17 Rooseman

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:18 PM

@Finger eating.

 

It makes no sense at all, that she ate them because she was hungry. You die of thirst before you starve, and there's not much meat on your fingers anyway. Has there ever been a case where somebody was so hungry, that he tried to eat his own bodyparts? Drinking your own blood to prevent dehydration makes more sense.

 

It's just what people assumed, since they didn't have a better explanation for it. They found her dead in her tower with her fingers chewed off, why would she do that if not because of hunger? We got a better explanation in ADWD. We know that Reek bit his finger off because of the unimaginable pain that followed flaying.

 

Ramsay stripped the skin off her fingers and left her there. Yeah, he's a dick.



#18 blood of the dragoon

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

 
Since ADWD's release and that passage I think it is almost certain Lady Hornwood actually had her fingers flayed and she chewed on/bit off what was left of them afterwards in order to alleviate the pain, than eating them out of hunger (which in retrospect doesn't quite add up.  At least, not as well as the first possibility does).

I'm with you and Rooseman on this one. Eating her own fingers always struck me as suspect, but i didn't have a better explanation. Now that we know Ramsay and what a darling he is, we have a much more believable alternative.

#19 Rooseman

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:34 PM

Ramsay, what a dick, I gotta say it again. :) Not only did he leave her to starve, but he took the time to strip the skin off every single one of her fingers just for the lulz.



#20 Kasporio

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

Im still not sure Ramsay did (or ordered the skinner to) skin lady Hornwood. He had no need. She was too old for a "hunting" party, and, as soon as he married her, she became useless. Ramsay likes torture on long term, both physically and mentally. 

 

And there is some historical anecdotes of people let starving and who ate  their own flesh.

read something about king John, who emprisonned the wife and infant child of a rebel baron, with only some raw meat  for days.

Both died starving. Gruesomly, the mother ate her child cheeks before dying. So the fact of resorting to cannibalism when trapped isnt about hungry, its more the result of the psychological anguish.

 

And the accounts about the death of lady Hornwood are very concise, just she died starving and ate some of her fingers.

If she had be skinned, the maester who probably examined the corpse would have saw it, and Ramsay clearly didnt cared for evidences.

He just forgotten her in a tower, after marrying her in front of a septon and a weirwood, then rapying her to make sure the marriage couldnt be annulled, by ACOK accounts.