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Is Mance Rayder one of Craster's Sons?


FranklynFowler

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I just found this in ADWD: Jon VIII


"Craster's son?" Val shrugged. "He is no kin to me."

This in conjunction with Sam's thought that Aemon Battleborn is Craster's grandson is the proof. Sam is obviously thinking about relation by blood, and if Val and her sister aren't kin to Craster, then it must be through Mance's bloodline.



Mance is Craster's son.



Mance's backstory of a young child being brought back to the wall by rangers fits perfectly with Craster's MO for disposing of sons.


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  • 11 months later...

Mance is Aemon's son. It is known.



What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy



Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old...



Lord Bloodraven, ever the diligent curator of Targaryen dynasty, found the boy amongst the wildlings and ordered the other Crows to take him safely into the Watch. Mance always remembered this, and even fashioned his helm after the man who spared his life. Perhaps, like Syrio Forel after him, Bloodraven stayed behind to take out the remaining wildlings, and from there disappeared into the mist.



Free folk don't follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic. They won't dance for coins, they don't care how you style yourself or what that chain of office means or who your grandsire was. They follow strength. They follow the man.



(Crackpot? Yes. As good as him being Craster's son? Sure.)



Two things we can agree upon-Mance has Southron knowledge and Mance likes his red-streaked black. He's a Targ.


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Yep you're right titan's bastard just did a re-read and he was the child of some raiders they put to the sword. It's a shame lol i thought i'd actually uncovered something nobody else had.

Those discoveries are few and far between, though they do still happen, usually with the newer stuff. Small tidbits here and there

I figured out what probably happened to blood and cheese from TPATQ for example

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There is plenty of evidence to suggest Mance is at least descended from Bloodraven.

Remember the importance of the red streaks in his cloak, his refusal to change it is why he deserted.

He wears a Raven helm for god sakes.

BR is in the right time and place to be his father or grandfather.

But most importantly Mance is master of disguise, and HE can glamour, just like BR. (Yea I know, Mel's magic right? I call BS on that)

Targ or not GRRM is deliberately drawing parallels here.

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Read my post: My idea is that Sam had it from Gilly, who had it from Val, who is Mance's sister-in-law. And at any rate, Craster is "Monster's" father and grandfather, yet Sam calls him by the latter. You'd think he'd go for the closest relation, no?

The boy has no blood relation with Craster and he's not even supposed to be his son, only his grandson.

That quote struck my attention on first reading, actually, but I must have payed little attention to it, after all.

Given the entire quote, I find it hard to believe Sam knows more than what we do about Mance, I find it much more likely he's just referring to him being nursed by Craster's daughter... In any case, even if it was, I can't imagine how important that could ever be in the story.

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The boy has no blood relation with Craster and he's not even supposed to be his son, only his grandson.

That quote struck my attention on first reading, actually, but I must have payed little attention to it, after all.

Given the entire quote, I find it hard to believe Sam knows more than what we do about Mance, I find it much more likely he's just referring to him being nursed by Craster's daughter... In any case, even if it was, I can't imagine how important that could ever be in the story.

Sam is also incredibly drunk when he says this.

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The boy has no blood relation with Craster and he's not even supposed to be his son, only his grandson.

That quote struck my attention on first reading, actually, but I must have payed little attention to it, after all.

Given the entire quote, I find it hard to believe Sam knows more than what we do about Mance, I find it much more likely he's just referring to him being nursed by Craster's daughter... In any case, even if it was, I can't imagine how important that could ever be in the story.

Sam had been spending all his time with Craster's daughter/wife and the man who most likely taught Mance everything he knows. He knows a lot more about Craster and Mance than the readers.

The quote clearly specifies it's relation by blood.

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Sam had been spending all his time with Craster's daughter/wife and the man who most likely taught Mance everything he knows. He knows a lot more about Craster and Mance than the readers.

The quote clearly specifies it's relation by blood.

I don't think it specifies the relation clearly at all.. It's confusing, and I believe it's meant to be confusing. Sam can be confused by the way Gilly treats the child ...Aemon can be wrong. His opinion on Gilly's behaviour is based on what he and Jon decided was best to do ... but Aemon is blind, and I think there's serious doubt that Val and Gilly ever actually switched the babies.

Back to the quote..

"Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood.

.. this is cutting it pretty close to naming the child before the propitious time, and it may be that Gilly, who was so adamant that neither child should be named so young, can engage in this kind of dreaming because she knows the name will never actually be this child's name.

She may or may not have hinted as much to Sam. ...But let's not forget that Sam is often perceptive abut things that are hidden (e.g. he feels something is off about Pate, when no one else seems to - not even people who are familiar with Pate). What he believes, rationally (Mance's son) and what he feels intuitively (Craster's grandson) can both be coming out in his thoughts.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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