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Dany: The Darth Vader of ASOIAF?


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#1 Fire Eater

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

Inspired by a good analysis on the subject:

 

This is a turning point for Dany. The book started with Dany finding out her dragon had killed the little girl Hazzea. The girl’s name haunted her throughout the book, so it’s immensely significant that her name has been forgotten now — in favor of the dragons. Dany’s vision seems to be saying that innocent little Meereenese girls aren’t your real children — the dragons are. The clear suggestion being that Dany needs to abandon or seriously reduce her concern for innocent life, in favor of using her own dragonpower to do what she wants.

 

As Apple Martini, stated Dany's storyline in Meereen with her being pitted against slavers was to build her up in the reader's mind as a hero before GRRM pulls the rug from under us as he is wont to do. In the 19th century, the "evil  Arab" slave traders were the go to villains for the British, and so it comes to no surprise that GRRM would put slavers in opposition to Dany in her POV. Dany also benefits from not being conflict with other POVs in the book, but that will change when she starts the second Dance when she fights POV characters Arianne and JonCon.

 

The basic story of Anakin Skywalker is from a hero to villain. Anakin starts out as a compassionate human being with some issues, but his lust for power and unbridled passion or anger lead him down a dark path. he originally starts out fighting the Sith, but later ends up fighting the Rebe Alliance. Dany may be following a similar story as she suffers some of the shortcomings of Anakin: impatience and unbridled passion. Anakin Skywalker wants to save the life of the one he loves, and he becomes willing to sacrifice anything to achieve it, even innocents. After some soul-searching in the Dothraki Sea Dany comes to the conclusion of "dragons plant no trees", a reference to her planting olive trees, olvies being a symbol of peace. Instead it has been replaced with her house's words: fire and blood. She has decided that the easiest way to deal with issues of possible innocents getting harmed is simply to stop caring. The dragons are her children, and she is the Mother of Dragons, much like Anakin Skywalker becomes consumed by his title, Darth Vader.

 

Is the Dark Side stronger?

No, quicker, easier, more seductive.

 

Dany tried peace, but it proved to put a bitter taste in her mouth. She could have used Jon's saying: "A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy, I’ve heard it said." She immediately starts sending envoys to the Yunkish sellswords and wanting to break the peace. It is easier for her to end the conflict by force rather than to compromise on a few things.

 

Barristan's Departure

 

"Better to become a beggar than a slaver," Arstan said.

 

Barristan has been with Dany since the end of ACoK. In ASoS, he tried to convince her however he could from buying Unsullied, and throughout ASoS and ADwD he tried to steer her in what he felt was the right direction, including advising against reopening the fighting pits along with Missandei. Barristan, her white knight, plays a bit of Jimminy Cricket, her conscience.

 

He would give half his teeth for the chance to try his axe against the Kingslayer or the Knight of Flowers.

Jaime and Loras are both members of the KG, I think Victarion will fight Barristan and kill him. With Barristan dead, only Tyrion will be left to restrain Dany's temper, and I don't know if he will be as effective as Barristan.

 

The signs of Dany as a Potential Villain

 

After Meereen had fallen, Dany nailed up a like number of Great Masters . . . Yet some days she feared that she had not gone far enough. 

 

These are her thoughts in relation to crucifying 163 people, and she later allows a wineseller's daughters to be tortured after hearing of Rylona Ree's death. She also allows the two men, one who is one of the Mother's Men, to avoid punishement for raping and killing a boy's mother in contrast to her swearing bloody vengeance to Mago and Jhaqo for raping and killing Eroeh, also pointed out by Apple I believe.

 

Now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy

 

"Either you die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

 

With Stannis pressing his claim, Dany will eventually come into conflict with everyone's favorite family: the Starks. That is the red line for most readers, and she will go from protagonist to antagonist.

 

they [herons] all took to wing like they'd seen a dragon . . Cletus nocked an arrow to his string and brought one down. Tasted like duck, but not so greasy

 

He moved the catapult again, closed his hand around Tyrion's alabaster dragon, removed it from the board.

 

Tyrion's white dragon is removed from the board. The only white dragon I can think of is Viserion, and I think there is a chance Tyrion might ride him using the dragon horn, although I am completely unsure if that is possible for someone without Valyrian blood. I think the last three quotes possibly foreshadow Tyrion being killed while he is riding on Viserion in flight, possibly by a projectile launched at Viserion's wing. I think Viserion might survive, albeit with a broken wing, but Tyrion won't survive the fall. Either way Tyrion will be killed in battle.

 

Dany after suffering from the loss of her Hand (and possibly her husband) along with seeing one of her children, Viserion hurt, this will cut her deeper than Rylona Ree, and she will be quite angry. The Northmen would likely tell her that Rickon Stark, Ned's son, is their new king. In her anger and a desire for vengeance, I think Dany will decide to kill their new king, Rickon. Whether or not she knows he is only a child I don't know, but she will come close to breaking one of her own rules: the prohibition against the killing of children.

 

When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand. 

 

It is a bit ironic that Ned resigned his post over Robert's plan to kill Dany only to later have her coming to kill his son. Rickon will share several similarities with Dany before and after she fled Dragonstone:

  • Dany lost her parents and her fondly remembered eldest brother, Rhaegar, was killed in war/ Rickon lost both his parents and his fondly remembered eldest brother, Robb, was died in war
  • Dany was at Dragonstone, the ancestral seat of her family/Rickon will be at WF, the ancestral seat of his family
  • Dany is believed to be the rightful Targaryen monarch, ignorant of Jon/ Rickon is believed to be the rightful KitN, but Robb's will says otherwise
  • Rickon's direwolf is named Shaggydog/ Dany's quest to reclaim the IT is a shaggy dog story when R+L=J is revealed.

At some point Dany will eventually realize that somewhere along the way she had become what she hated, and stop short from killing Rickon.


Edited by Fire Eater, 24 October 2013 - 10:18 PM.


#2 Rhymes with Weak

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:33 PM

Very eloquently written but I got one problem:

 

Darth Vader is awesome, Dany on the other hand...



#3 houseHB

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:37 PM

So then Jon = Luke Skywalker in this situation?

#4 mindchap

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:38 PM

And then becomes the savior of the galaxy? I like the comparison but to me there is another character who's just as likely to turn into that which he hates, but would eventually pull the turnaround.



#5 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:41 PM

Dany burns King's Landing to the ground.

 

Barristan Selmy: "You were the chosen one! It was said you would..."

 

Then Bloodraven's champion (aka Jon Snow) appears to save the day.



#6 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:48 PM

"Jon I am your mother"- Dany is Jon's mom that's why they said she has been bathing with virgin blood to keep herself young.



#7 Fire Eater

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:50 PM

So then Jon = Luke Skywalker in this situation?

 

Secret parentage that Jon would likely react to akin to Luke's response to Vader's reveal about his parentage, dresses in black like Luke in Return of the Jedi with a glove covering his scarred hand, and seems to have gone berserk in his fight against Iron Emmett like Luke against Vader. Luke's confrontation with Vader ends in Vader's death, and Jon's meeting with Dany will likely have a similar result for her.


Edited by Fire Eater, 25 November 2013 - 03:03 PM.


#8 Apple Martini

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:52 PM

I agree with the overall premise — Dany eventually turns into everything she ever hated in a classic tragic arc — but some stuff I just don't see and have told you so. Namely the thing with Rickon. I think the overall big picture is sound but some of the specific predictions (you need to be careful with the word "will" and not use it as liberally as you do) are tenuous at best.


Edited by Apple Martini, 20 October 2013 - 11:52 PM.


#9 Fire Eater

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:54 PM

I agree with the overall premise — Dany eventually turns into everything she ever hated in a classic tragic arc — but some stuff I just don't see and have told you so. Namely the thing with Rickon. I think the overall big picture is sound but some of the specific predictions (you need to be careful with the word "will" and not use it as liberally as you do) are tenuous at best.

 

I put "I think" before the word "will" to make it clear that it is my opinion.



#10 Nictarion

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

I can see Dany going down a very dark path like Vader, but in the end Vader is the hero. And I still think Dany plays that kind of role in the end. Maybe her last act is something that redeems her (maybe killing the great other) like Vader killing the emperor, proving he still had good in him.

#11 Alayne's Shadow.

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

I'd find that really interesting from Martin's writing, if It's indeed what happens. I'm a personal fan of the Star Wars saga, so I enjoyed the parallel very much. I'm not exactly rooting for Dany/Jon as heroes as I personally believe there shouldn't be clear heroes, and IMO their endings on ADWD do point to a Darker Future. I don't think she'll kill Rickon - Not because I'd justify if she does, but I don't see how the storyline would fit. Dany still has the Dothraki, Volantis and Aegon to deal before going to the North, and I can't see Rickon going South.

There's just too much speculation for me - Mainly the whole guessing about Tyrion and Viserion. They don't know each other yet, and she'll know he's a Lannister. If she's on a Darker Path, why should she trust an Usurper Dog? Not just any dog, mind you, but the son of Tywin Lannister, that butchered the Targaryen heirs.

 

Interesting read and great thread though.



#12 Apple Martini

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

 

I put "I think" before the word "will" to make it clear that it is my opinion.

 

Thanks. Like I said, I agree with the overall concept. But I do have some definite areas of disagreement.



#13 Fire Eater

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:01 AM

There's just too much speculation for me - Mainly the whole guessing about Tyrion and Viserion. They don't know each other yet, and she'll know he's a Lannister. If she's on a Darker Path, why should she trust an Usurper Dog? Not just any dog, mind you, but the son of Tywin Lannister, that butchered the Targaryen heirs.

 

GRRM normally kills off his POV characters at the time when their deaths would have the most impact. I don't see GRRM sending Tyrion to Meereen to no purpose other than to meet Dany just for her to kill him. Besides, Tyrion is skilled with words, and he may know how to sway her. If she asks how can she trust him, his reply would likely be somewhere along the lines of what he told Aegon: he doesn't expect her to trust him as she should trust no one.

 

He will have consolidated some things in Meereen for her.


Edited by Fire Eater, 21 October 2013 - 12:03 AM.


#14 Gneisenau

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:02 AM

"Join me Jon, and together, we can rule Westeros as aunt and niece!"

 

I think if Dany does kill children, it will be something like, "ensure no one leaves the town" kind of thing.

 

Personally, I'm not sure I like the whole Anakin comparison, because I find Anakin's turn to the dark side to be too contrived. I don't think Palps even explicitly stated he could help save Anakin, and if you read the novels, Mace Windu was a lover of Republic and all it stood for, so he wouldn't just go all dark side and execute Palps on the spot, which is what caused Anakin to break.


Edited by Gneisenau, 21 October 2013 - 12:02 AM.


#15 Audrey Arryn

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:06 AM

Nice theory but I disagree.

I do believe Dany is going down a "war" path but I find it hard to see GRRM making a classic "villian"

I think it is all about grey characters and heroes and villains being subjective to the POV's such as the battle of Blackwater bay different POVs at different ends of the battle.

I also don't see Dany losing her morals.



#16 Apple Martini

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

Nice theory but I disagree.

I do believe Dany is going down a "war" path but I find it hard to see GRRM making a classic "villian"

I think it is all about grey characters and heroes and villains being subjective to the POV's such as the battle of Blackwater bay different POVs at different ends of the battle.

I also don't see Dany losing her morals.

 

I think she's already started to lose these. Burning people alive, mass executions and torture come to mind.

 

Dany will never be villainous in the way that the Boltons are, but a heroine who becomes corrupted and ends up becoming the monster? Not only do I find that believable, I'd say it's already happening.



#17 RKOpanther

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:11 AM

Very eloquently written but I got one problem:

 

Darth Vader is awesome, Dany on the other hand...

If Dany goes evil she will be awesome.

 

If Dany hunts Rickon and kills him I can see a whole new brand of awesomeness on this story.

 

Also, if Jon learns of R+L=J but chooses to remain true to his vows rather than help his family again but then he learns Dany has killed Rickon it could be enough for Jon to forsake his vows and force his claim to the IT.



#18 Audrey Arryn

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:17 AM

 

I think she's already started to lose these. Burning people alive, mass executions and torture come to mind.

 

Dany will never be villainous in the way that the Boltons are, but a heroine who becomes corrupted and ends up becoming the monster? Not only do I find that believable, I'd say it's already happening.

I wouldn't say lose since these have been her morals since the very start but she is definitely going to be doing it without fear now.



#19 Rhymes with Weak

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:22 AM

I wouldn't say lose since these have been her morals since the very start but she is definitely going to be doing it without fear now.

When you think about it, the "dragon" aspect of Dany's personality has been a sociopathic asshole from the get-go. 



#20 SeanF

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:22 AM

"Join me Jon, and together, we can rule Westeros as aunt and niece!"
 
I think if Dany does kill children, it will be something like, "ensure no one leaves the town" kind of thing.
 
ak.


Sealing off a town, and burning it down with its inhabitants (which Jon Con thinks he ought to have done at Stony Sept) or refusing to let starving women and children pass through siege lines, seem more likely to me than the kind of massacre which Anakin carried out.