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Royces, Starks and Waynwoods-- Corbrays and Templetons too


Lady Gwynhyfvar

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In ASoS Catelyn Tully tells Robb:




"Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom married Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray for certain. The youngest… it might have been a Templeton…"

ASoS, ch.45



Timeline first. The woman who married the younger son of Raymar Royce was the sister of Edwyle Stark. Her children (the girls who married the Vale lordlings) were Rickard's first cousins. Their children would be Eddard's second cousins. There can be little doubt that Nestor Royce is the great-nephew (or great-great-nephew) of the Royce-Stark couple as he is the current head of the junior branch. But can we assume the Lady Anya, Lyonel and Lyn Corbray and Symond Templeton are the Stark cousins? Because the use of the term "lordling" implies a young heir, I believe we can. The word "lordling" is used commonly enough in the novels. Except for at the Wall, where it seems to be a derogatory term for the sons of nobility, it is elsewhere mostly applied to minor lords or the young heirs of lords (Bran, as Robb's heir, is repeatedly called "lordling", as is Sweet Robin, Theon Greyjoy, Tyrion Lannister, Wyman Manderly and Beric Dondarrion-- young lords or heirs, all) Because of the way the word is applied to others, by others of her social class, I conclude that when Cat mentioned "Vale lordlings" she spoke of the young heirs to those Houses. Which would make Anya, Lyonel, Lyn, Symond etc. the Vale cousins that could be heirs to Winterfell.



Assuming the generations line up, the current crop of Waynwoods, Corbrays and Templetons could be second cousins to the Starks, but that would also make them first cousins to each other. Since that isn't mentioned, I actually suspect a more staggered relationship. If the sister of Edwyle Stark was his elder sister by some years, she could have married up a generation. Whoever Edwyle's father was ("She-Wolves" where are you?!) it seems likely that he (Edwyle) was born prior to the time of the She-Wolves (c.212 AL) and also that his sister would be older. Let's assign her a birth somewhere around 200AL. That would make her marriage most likely around 215-220. Let's make a further jump and assign the role of eldest to the daughter who married the Waynwood lordling (not actually a huge jump since Cat lists the Waynwood first.) Her birth could have been as early as 215-220 and her first child born prior to 235AL. Now suppose she had at least two sons. The eldest grew up to be the father of Lady Anya (although described as an "old" woman in 300AL, I'd place her around fifty-- her next to youngest son, Ser Donnel, is described as a twenty year old, making her youngest, Wallace, still a teenager) So to review- Lord Edwyle's sister's eldest daughter marries a Waynwood lordling and has two sons, the elder of whom grows up to father Lady Anya, the current head of the House. The second son of course would be Lady Anya's uncle Elys Waynwood who married Alys Arryn and had a crop of daughters, the sole survivor of whom gave birth to the current heir to the Vale-- Harrold Hardyng. As for the Corbrays and Templetons-- my assumption is that at least one of the three daughters married a generation lower, making the kinship between the current group more distant and less likely to be remarked upon.



Who among us hasn't wondered what on earth induced Lady Anya to agree to marry her precious cousin Harry the Heir to Alayne Stone? Littlefinger bought up her debt, we are told. The Lord Protector is a prestigious man, we are told. But she risks the anger of Bronze Yohn Royce by spurning his daughter in favor of "Alayne." We are also told that the dower offered for "Alayne" was large "even larger than the one that Lyonel Corbray just collected." It seems obvious that Littlefinger has told her the truth of Sansa's identity, and the dower is Winterfell. In which case she is well aware of the kinship between the two youngsters and the twist of fate that would make Lady Anya herself, and her sons after her, heirs to Sansa Stark whose trueborn siblings are all (presumed) dead.



Because this is part of a bigger picture that I'm looking at, I'm interested in constructive feedback here. I have all the dates laid out in front of me, so I don't need to be reminded of Jon Arryn's birth year or how little we know about the ages of other characters. That said, I know exactly how creaky this hypothetical limb I'm on is. What I'd like to hear is ideas on what this could mean to the narrative. I have my own ideas of course, but they're dark and stormy... I'm wondering what others' take on this will be. Do you accept this as a possibility? Where is Littlefinger going with this? Lady Anya? Could it all just be an absurd coincidence?




eta-- I feel it's important to note that even if we assign later dates to the Waynwood marriage and assume that Lady Anya is the daughter of the Royce girl with the Stark mother, she could still be "the cousin in the Vale" with the claim to Winterfell-- that would just remove the relationship with Harry Hardyng from the picture. (But where would be the fun in that?)


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I don't really think there is enough indications in the text to narrow down who the third daughter married to, or who are the current Stark 'heirs' in the Vale. GRRM probably introduced the ambiguity on purpose, so he'll have flexibility when dealing with this particular issue.



So, it might be possible that Harry the Heir is a distant relative of Sansa Stark and the heir Catelyn wanted for Robb, but there is no way to 'prove' it. It's also likely that Lady Waynwood knows, although, if she does, she has reasons to put a lot of pressure in Harry about agreeing to the marriage instead of the more 'hands off' approach LF claims she has.


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I don't really think there is enough indications in the text to narrow down who the third daughter married to, or who are the current Stark 'heirs' in the Vale. GRRM probably introduced the ambiguity on purpose, so he'll have flexibility when dealing with this particular issue.

So, it might be possible that Harry the Heir is a distant relative of Sansa Stark and the heir Catelyn wanted for Robb, but there is no way to 'prove' it. It's also likely that Lady Waynwood knows, although, if she does, she has reasons to put a lot of pressure in Harry about agreeing to the marriage instead of the more 'hands off' approach LF claims she has.

You're right about the ambiguity. To be clear though-- that relates to the third daughter, not the one who married a Waynwood. Cat seemed quite certain of that. Also I'm not implying that Harry is the Stark heir, but that Lady Anya is (or one of her sons) Where would that leave the marriage agreement? If her own immediate family stands to benefit from an absence of Starks, what would be her motivation in marrying Harry to Sansa? Does she have a power play in mind where Harry refuses "Alayne" and she is married off to Donnel or Wallace Waynwood? Is there something more nefarious at work? Is Littlefinger aware?

This is the kind of theory that raises more questions than it answers, to be honest :dunno:

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If Lady Waynwood is in the line of succession to Winterfell then marrying Harrold the Heir to Sansa doesn't improve the chances of her or her sons inheriting - unless she believes that overcome with gratitude Sansa will waive her right to inherit in favour of the distant cousins?



I suppose there would be other benefits potentially, either The Eyrie or Winterfell might well require a loyal family member as castellan. :dunno:



The Stark cousins are an intriguing titbit, but maybe we are missing something about Vale politics.


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<snip>

Lady Gwyn, the analysis actually has too many assumptions, even if they all seem likely. The scenario can be likely because Harry the heir's claim to the Vale is just as crooked. The 'dower' so to speak is not necessarily Winterfell though (or the said claim to it). It might as well be some other holding.

I don't see Petyr passing on Harrenhal to someone, but it could easily be some other big fish I believe, I do expect LF to conjure something like that. Though it might be true that the match was made only after he revealed Sansa's true identity to Lady Anya.

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Lady Gwyn, the analysis actually has too many assumptions, even if they all seem likely. The scenario can be likely because Harry the heir's claim to the Vale is just as crooked. The 'dower' so to speak is not necessarily Winterfell though (or the said claim to it). It might as well be some other holding.

I don't see Petyr passing on Harrenhal to someone, but it could easily be some other big fish I believe, I do expect LF to conjure something like that. Though it might be true that the match was made only after he revealed Sansa's true identity to Lady Anya.

I know it rests on assumptions. I was hoping for feedback on it's implications if it were true (eta-- I'm looking at a bigger picture and this little piece might help explain some things)

Let's start here-- do you (and others) think the point about the term "lordling" is a good one? That to me is the biggest assumption and also the most provocative. If "lordling" implies lord or heir, as I think it does, then the descendants of the Stark auntie would currently be lords of those Houses, barring any die-offs or dynastic changes.

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Well, there's the issue of what this suggests re: Waynwoods and the crown. A rejection of the Lannister marriage is either going to be premised on knowledge/proof of prior marriage still in place, significant cooperation of the Crown against it's own interests, or outright hostility towards the crown in calling the wedding forced and unlawful.

Waynwood previously pushed for antagonism towards the Lannisters, but Robb and the Stark power base are gone, so not sure she'd pursue that, espeially in a manner that isolates her from some other Vale support. And also not sure that LF wants to be that definitive at this stage.

So the poisoned fruit of Sansa's true identity remains for me. That being true, I don't see LF making himself that vulnerable without already having a real solution in hand, and one that requires him to be alive and in power to work. Otherwise telling Waynwood is giving her serious power over him, and I don't think that's how he works.

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I know it rests on assumptions. I was hoping for feedback on it's implications if it were true.

Let's start here-- do you (and others) think the point about the term "lordling" is a good one? That to me is the biggest assumption and also the most provocative. If "lordling" implies lord or heir, as I think it does, then the descendants of the Stark auntie would currently be lords of those Houses, barring any die-offs or dynastic changes.

The lordling point does make sense, yes. As for the analysis, if this is true, then we have a good challenger to Robb's will. Lady Anya, Harry and the Vale lorlings will push for Sansa's claim for Winterfell as the trueborn daughter of House Stark, against Jon whom the Young Wolf legitimized only after assuming his other siblings dead. So we may see five factions contesting for Winterfell supporting either Stannis, Sansa, Rickon, Jon or the Boltons.

And if such a conflict does happen, I don't know hom many Northerners will stand with Sansa, or how Sansa herself will react to being pitted against one and a half of her brothers. :)

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There can be little doubt that Nestor Royce is the great-nephew (or great-great-nephew) of the Royce-Stark couple as he is the current head of the junior branch.

Is he? Cat refers to the head of the junior branch as "Lord Raymar Royce", but Nestor, prior to acquiring the Gates of the Moon, was not a lord in his own right (nor likely to become one, from the sound of it). That point was made pretty explicitly.

This is actually one of my minor questions about the Seven Kingdoms backstory. What is the the junior branch of House Royce? It's clearly been around for a while, and was even able to snag a Stark bride at one point, but there are no lands or titles associated with it, as far as we know. If the junior branch does in fact have a lord, then there's a third Royce lordship out there right now, and the junior branch would now be the "middle" branch, the Nestor's Gates of the Moon Royces as the junior branch

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Well, there's the issue of what this suggests re: Waynwoods and the crown. A rejection of the Lannister marriage is either going to be premised on knowledge/proof of prior marriage still in place, significant cooperation of the Crown against it's own interests, or outright hostility towards the crown in calling the wedding forced and unlawful.

Waynwood previously pushed for antagonism towards the Lannisters, but Robb and the Stark power base are gone, so not sure she'd pursue that, espeially in a manner that isolates her from some other Vale support. And also not sure that LF wants to be that definitive at this stage.

So the poisoned fruit of Sansa's true identity remains for me. That being true, I don't see LF making himself that vulnerable without already having a real solution in hand, and one that requires him to be alive and in power to work. Otherwise telling Waynwood is giving her serious power over him, and I don't think that's how he works.

That's a very good point. What strikes me about Littlefinger's "explanation" to Sansa is that (like everything else that comes out of his mouth) it's a bit too flip, too pat. To Sansa's valid questions (she specifically raises her marriage to Tyrion) he basically tells her "Don't worry Harry will marry my daughter, Alayne." But then he adds the bit about the dower and presenting her as a Stark at the wedding. I'm curious as to what he could have offered Lady Anya to overcome the "wroth" of Bronze Yohn, if not Sansa's true identity.

By the way-- another good point is Lady Anya's past support of the Stark cause. In that she was joined by Bronze Yohn (who hoped to marry his daughter to Harry Hardyng), Symond Templeton and Lords Redfort and Belmore. All of whom became Lords Declarant.

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The lordling point does make sense, yes. As for the analysis, if this is true, then we have a good challenger to Robb's will. Lady Anya, Harry and the Vale lorlings will push for Sansa's claim for Winterfell as the trueborn daughter of House Stark, against Jon whom the Young Wolf legitimized only after assuming his other siblings dead. So we may see five factions contesting for Winterfell supporting either Stannis, Sansa, Rickon, Jon or the Boltons.

And if such a conflict does happen, I don't know hom many Northerners will stand with Sansa, or how Sansa herself will react to being pitted against one and a half of her brothers. :)

This is what I'm afraid of. Important to note that Littlefinger thinks Bran and Rickon (and Arya for that matter) are dead. He knows that Jeyne Poole is a fake, and most likely has no knowledge of the will or at least assumes that Jon Snow is safely tied to the NW.

Is he? Cat refers to the head of the junior branch as "Lord Raymar Royce", but Nestor, prior to acquiring the Gates of the Moon, was not a lord in his own right (nor likely to become one, from the sound of it). That point was made pretty explicitly.

This is actually one of my minor questions about the Seven Kingdoms backstory. What is the the junior branch of House Royce? It's clearly been around for a while, and was even able to snag a Stark bride at one point, but there are no lands or titles associated with it, as far as we know. If the junior branch does in fact have a lord, then there's a third Royce lordship out there right now, and the junior branch would now be the "middle" branch, the Nestor's Gates of the Moon Royces as the junior branch

Lord Nestor was referred to as "Lord Nestor" before Littlefinger bestowed the GotM on him. He was the High Steward of the Vale and as such I assumed that his is the junior branch that Cat referred to, that he has some estate somewhere and his occupation of the GotM is similar to the Hand of the King living in King's Landing.

Afaik, no other Royces are ever mentioned.

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This is an interesting thread Lady Gwynhyvar, I'm glad someone is putting the Vale situation under the spotlight, and looking at possibilities. I don't know enough about the lines of succession to wade in with any confidence, but your angle regarding 'lordlings' is new and interesting, especially if you are correct and the term could be revelatory.


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Let's start here-- do you (and others) think the point about the term "lordling" is a good one? That to me is the biggest assumption and also the most provocative. If "lordling" implies lord or heir, as I think it does, then the descendants of the Stark auntie would currently be lords of those Houses, barring any die-offs or dynastic changes.

I think that "lordling" as it was used with regards to Bran is a somewhat derogatory way to refer to a younger son of a lord (not the heir). On the other hand, the Starks are an old and important family. Would a daughter of that family allow her girls to be married to someone who is not on his path to be a lord (that is, an heir)? If we assume the latter, then you are most probably right that the current generation of Waynwoods, Corbrays and Templetons have Stark blood in them.

However, this raises another question: if that Stark woman only had three daughters, who succeeded her husband in his lordship? In other words, do the current Royces have Stark blood as well?

Also, according to wiki, there was a Kyle Royce in Brandon Stark's party when he rode to KL to demand Rhaegar's death. Maybe he was a cousin?

There are also two Royce women married into House Frey, though I do not see how they can be relevant.

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That's a very good point. What strikes me about Littlefinger's "explanation" to Sansa is that (like everything else that comes out of his mouth) it's a bit too flip, too pat. To Sansa's valid questions (she specifically raises her marriage to Tyrion) he basically tells her "Don't worry Harry will marry my daughter, Alayne." But then he adds the bit about the dower and presenting her as a Stark at the wedding. I'm curious as to what he could have offered Lady Anya to overcome the "wroth" of Bronze Yohn, if not Sansa's true identity.

By the way-- another good point is Lady Anya's past support of the Stark cause. In that she was joined by Bronze Yohn (who hoped to marry his daughter to Harry Hardyng), Symond Templeton and Lords Redfort and Belmore. All of whom became Lords Declarant.

On the first, yeah, it's problematic. More, I have never understood how he thinks he will retain control of Sansa after unveiling her. His hold over her is premised on being the buffer between her and the world's knowledge of who she is. Once he lets that go, he loses that hold AND she has a lot of dirt on him.

That said she's mostly been a follower in her life, so maybe he assumes that will stay true. But I don't think he makes the same assumptions about Lady Waynwood, so I don't see him offering up that leverage. He'd at least have to make her complicit somehow, and not in some vague way.

I sometimes think we miscast LF as a long-game player when mostly he's short to intermediate, and often making it up as he goes along. He might not have a great answer to the problem, and is relying on his network of information and ability to improv to get by. If he is playing out something long here, I would assume that Lady Waynwood's knowledge isn't supposed to be around long. None of her children seem the type to conspire with LF to pull a fatal coup, but you never know.

One note...her other ward is a Frey. Which could be just one of the places GRRM put a Frey to illustrate their omnipresence, or it could have other implications. They seem to be unusually Frey-lineal irrespective of gender, those Frey relatives.

As to the Lords Declarant, yeah, that was what I was trying to say. But to expect her to now pursue a conflict with the Crown without a Stark cause/force to support AND while distancing herself from the other LsD, especially the most powerful one...I think it would be a pretty rash call, and she doesn't seem rash.

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His hold over her is premised on being the buffer between her and the world's knowledge of who she is. Once he lets that go, he loses that hold AND she has a lot of dirt on him.

Not to mention that once the marriage becomes public, Littlefinger would basically be declaring himself an enemy of the Iron Throne and the Lannisters (Sansa is wanted for Joff's murder, after all). And he would be involving the Vale in the war Lysa managed to keep them out of.

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I've always assumed the term "lordling" referred to either a younger brother of the heir or a "petty lord" (aka: someone of little or no importance) Someone like Littlefinger would have been considered a petty lord before he received all his new titles from the Lannister Crown.

I have audio copies of all the books. I'll re-listen to some of the Catelyn, Sansa and possibly Tyrion/Jaime chapters in ACOK and SOS, I might be able to catch something.

The wiki doesn't named the houses that Cat named, maybe someone could make a crude family tree and post a link for it, maybe in google docs, then we could add notes to it and references to it.

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On the first, yeah, it's problematic. More, I have never understood how he thinks he will retain control of Sansa after unveiling her. His hold over her is premised on being the buffer between her and the world's knowledge of who she is. Once he lets that go, he loses that hold AND she has a lot of dirt on him.

That said she's mostly been a follower in her life, so maybe he assumes that will stay true. But I don't think he makes the same assumptions about Lady Waynwood, so I don't see him offering up that leverage. He'd at least have to make her complicit somehow, and not in some vague way.

I sometimes think we miscast LF as a long-game player when mostly he's short to intermediate, and often making it up as he goes along. He might not have a great answer to the problem, and is relying on his network of information and ability to improv to get by. If he is playing out something long here, I would assume that Lady Waynwood's knowledge isn't supposed to be around long. None of her children seem the type to conspire with LF to pull a fatal coup, but you never know.

One note...her other ward is a Frey. Which could be just one of the places GRRM put a Frey to illustrate their omnipresence, or it could have other implications. They seem to be unusually Frey-lineal irrespective of gender, those Frey relatives.

As to the Lords Declarant, yeah, that was what I was trying to say. But to expect her to now pursue a conflict with the Crown without a Stark cause/force to support AND while distancing herself from the other LsD, especially the most powerful one...I think it would be a pretty rash call, and she doesn't seem rash.

I'm trying to figure out if she's playing LF or the other way around. She seems pretty sharp and I think her support for the Starks was genuine, possibly based on the kinship. I don't really see them working together per se, though you know what they say about politics...

Freys-- yeah, they're everywhere. The have a number of Vale connections, with Lord Walder's first wife being a Royce. Lady Waynwood's ward is the daughter of a Waynwood who married a Frey of the Crakehall-Freys which incidentally also includes Hosteen (also married to a Royce), Merrett, Symond and Raymund (the one who killed Catelyn)

Not to mention that once the marriage becomes public, Littlefinger would basically be declaring himself an enemy of the Iron Throne and the Lannisters (Sansa is wanted for Joff's murder, after all). And he would be involving the Vale in the war Lysa managed to keep them out of.

I think LF is counting on the Lannisters crashing and burning. He makes a point of saying he thought he'd have more time before Cersei destroyed herself. Then he follows up with his enigmatic "three queens" comment, which I believe implies he knows just enough about Dany to expect that she's on her way to Westeros. My reading of that entire passage is that he expects the ensuing three way war between the powers in KL (Lannister and Tyrell) and Daenerys to take out the last of the Lannister strength. If he knows Dany has dragons, he expects her to win. Does he think she'll care if he quietly (or dramatically, for that matter) reinstates the last Stark in Winterfell? If that Stark is going to support her, I expect he thinks it will all work out perfectly. I strongly suspect Littlefinger's downfall will be his assumption that he is in possession of all the facts, when in fact he is not, One person who will not be surprised by that-- Varys ;)

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One more note regarding lordling-- yes, it used by Osha towards Bran in a derogatory or mocking way. But she's a Wildling, I'd expect her use to be more in line with the way it's used at the Wall. Others call Bran lordling though when he is left behind at Winterfell and he is certainly Robb's heir. Except for vague, unquantifiable uses (i.e. "lordlings" who are not identified) every personal use I could find for it, by people who were of similar social standing to Catelyn, was in reference to someone who was an heir or a minor lord.



Regarding the family tree-- would it surprise you to know that I have an actual family tree in a genealogy program for asoiaf that includes this particular group? That's how I puzzled it out... Not sure I could link it but I can look into it.


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Regarding the family tree-- would it surprise you to know that I have an actual family tree in a genealogy program for asoiaf that includes this particular group? That's how I puzzled it out... Not sure I could link it but I can look into it.

Having seen your GNC locator, this doesn't surprise me at all! The thoroughness of your approach is second to none LG, I thought you had genealogies worked out somehow.

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Having seen your GNC locator, this doesn't surprise me at all! The thoroughness of your approach is second to none LG, I thought you had genealogies worked out somehow.

Aww... :blushing:

Thanks yolkboy! What you're trying to say is I'm off the geek-charts thorough? Lol :D

I'll try to find a way to link it without also linking my RL family tree!

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