Best to Worst Mothers in ASOIAF

[TalalOfDorne]

Though I cant make a judgement, I really want to know more about Elia, Alannys Harlaw, and Cassana Estermont. Im just gonna guess they were good in general.

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

Catelyn has always been a bitch to her stepson.

Even though I can't stand Cat, I don't think that is accurate. Or at least we don't have enough textual evidence for it. She seems to ignore him mostly, except for the whole "it should have been you" comment - something said in a moment of extreme fear and grief. I don't think that qualifies her as alway acting like a bitch to Jon, or hating him.

Best mothers - Cat, Olenna, Ellaria,

Worst - Cersei, Lysa

[Colonel Green]

If a person marries another person who has a child from another relationship

Which Catelyn didn't do. Ned cheated on her (supposedly) and then insisted on bringing the kid home, over her objections. She didn't assume any obligations toward him.

That also touches on the issue of assessing mothers in the world of Westeros, given the different power standards. For instance, Melessa Florent seems, on her own, to have had the makings of a good mother to Sam; but she was totally unable, and perhaps unwilling, to do anything about Randyll's atrocious treatment of him, and if she existed today she'd probably be prosecuted for facilitating child abuse. Is she, by Westeros standards, a good mother?

[Fat Mac]

Best- Cat and Ellaria Sand

Worst- Cersei and Lysa

Though I cant make a judgement, I really want to know more about Elia, Alannys Harlaw, and Cassana Estermont. Im just gonna guess they were good in general.

I feel so bad for Alannys Harlaw. She's basically lost all of her kids due to her dolt of a husband.

[Welease Woger]

Even though I can't stand Cat, I don't think that is accurate. Or at least we don't have enough textual evidence for it. She seems to ignore him mostly, except for the whole "it should have been you" comment - something said in a moment of extreme fear and grief. I don't think that qualifies her as alway acting like a bitch to Jon, or hating him.

Best mothers - Cat, Olenna, Ellaria,

Worst - Cersei, Lysa

Which Catelyn didn't do. Ned cheated on her (supposedly) and then insisted on bringing the kid home, over her objections. She didn't assume any obligations toward him.

That also touches on the issue of assessing mothers in the world of Westeros, given the different power standards. For instance, Melessa Florent seems, on her own, to have had the makings of a good mother to Sam; but she was totally unable, and perhaps unwilling, to do anything about Randyll's atrocious treatment of him, and if she existed today she'd probably be prosecuted for facilitating child abuse.

Yeah, I've alrealy changed my mind in the last page. What I said about Catelyn was not well thought (and probably even somewhat chauvinist), probably because I can't stand her either.

[Thormund Stark]

Best: Cat, Melessa Florent(Sams mom), Gilly

Worst:

1. Cersei- arrogant, delusional, and crazy, Given enough time she would have corrupted Tommen as much as Joffrey.

2. Lysa- Crazy and spoiled her kid rotten.

[James Arryn]

Even though I can't stand Cat, I don't think that is accurate. Or at least we don't have enough textual evidence for it. She seems to ignore him mostly, except for the whole "it should have been you" comment - something said in a moment of extreme fear and grief. I don't think that qualifies her as alway acting like a bitch to Jon, or hating him.

Best mothers - Cat, Olenna, Ellaria,

Worst - Cersei, Lysa

I don't think we can hold Cat's refusal to mother Jon against her.

I think we can say, though, that as an adult who chose to repeatedly make a child feel unwelcome in the only home he ever knew, because of something his father did, and to do so for years and years while the actual person who wronged her is right there, being treated well...I think we can say that's pretty reprehensible/ bitchy behaviour as an adult.

As a mother to her children, though, she's pretty great. Only slight knock is playing/having favourites, but a lot of parents make that mistake.

[Marwi]

I can't help myself to force Cat within the pantheon of best mothers, 'cause what she *felt* toward jon sounds.. ..poorly of a person who's lovely, tenderly, capable to correctly express feelings and understand her own. She has been good though to her own children and did her best despite of her own weaknesses and defects - all of us have those - so I can still say I appreciate her motherly qualities.

Samwell Tarly mother - through his eyes - looks a pretty good. The boy has been loved enough to grow up pretty decently despite of the sick educational methods used by sam's father. She encouraged him for the skills he naturally showed and appreciated him for what it was.

I liked also Gilly, despite the fact we have been shown little of her mother educational skills, she has undoubtedly an unlimited love for her own child and a gentle heart, to the point that it can sincerely worry for another's woman child as hers.

I won't try to list the "worst" mothers because:

a ) I'm not a mother, can't fully understand the difficulty of being such

b ) I'm not even a woman to try to think what it could mean

c ) It's easier to judge negatively than assess qualities without proper understanding of situation.. Also, it's easy to confuse the concept of "good mother" with the one of "good woman".

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think we can say, though, that as an adult who chose to repeatedly make a child feel unwelcome in the only home he ever knew, because of something his father did, and to do so for years and years while the actual person who wronged her is right there, being treated well...I think we can say that's pretty reprehensible/ bitchy behaviour as an adult.

I think Jon's "bad treatment" is overrated. He still got pretty much everything the true born children of Ned got, the best education money could buy. He didn't even necessarily had to go to the NW, he chose to. My vision is that she pretty much ignored him, avoiding interaction at all costs. I can't really blame her on the situation because she was just as forced into it as Jon. I guess Ned's secrecy made matters worse as well, because it seemed she'll always be second to Ned's true love, Jon's mother.

Edit: She also didn't forbade or seemed willing to turn her children against Jon. If she had been so against him, then I'm sure the Starks would've never been that close to him.

[Skoboe]

I fail to see how Cat can be regarded as a good mother.

Sure, she absolutely doted on Robb, but she couldn't control Arya or Bran, she allowed her two daughters to leave home without any fuss, she abandoned her two youngest boys - one while still in a coma - to run an errand, and apart from a few chapters at the start only ever saw one of her five children.

She didn't even high-tail it back to Winterfell when Bran and Rickon were 'murdered', instead she goes and plans a wedding!

I can't think of any good mothers in the series...Gilly comes close but even she gives up her own baby.

Cersei is constantly pulling out the 'all for my children' line to justify her own ambitions.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Best- Catelyn, Maege Mormont, Ellaria Sand

Worst- Cersei, Lysa, Any Weasel-spawn mothers

[Minsc]

She didn't even high-tail it back to Winterfell when Bran and Rickon were 'murdered', instead she goes and plans a wedding!

What logic would dictate someone high-tail though a warzone (particularly one where passage into the North is controlled by the enemy) to visit the smoking ruin of a castle?

Furthermore, that "wedding" was Team Stark's last ditch move to salvage their relationship with an important ally needed to protect her remaining family.

[Lasicka]

I fail to see how Cat can be regarded as a good mother.

Sure, she absolutely doted on Robb, but she couldn't control Arya or Bran, she allowed her two daughters to leave home without any fuss, she abandoned her two youngest boys - one while still in a coma - to run an errand, and apart from a few chapters at the start only ever saw one of her five children.

She didn't even high-tail it back to Winterfell when Bran and Rickon were 'murdered', instead she goes and plans a wedding!

You are kidding, right? So she is a bad mother, because she let her children play? Allowed them to leave home? I remember Sansa being pretty excited about it plus I guess Cat thought it could help Arya become a proper little lady (there is your control). And I wouldn´t describe trying to save your family as "running an errand"

I think Jon's "bad treatment" is overrated. He still got pretty much everything the true born children of Ned got, the best education money could buy. He didn't even necessarily had to go to the NW, he chose to. My vision is that she pretty much ignored him, avoiding interaction at all costs. I can't really blame her on the situation because she was just as forced into it as Jon. I guess Ned's secrecy made matters worse as well, because it seemed she'll always be second to Ned's true love, Jon's mother.

Edit: She also didn't forbade or seemed willing to turn her children against Jon. If she had been so against him, then I'm sure the Starks would've never been that close to him.

I agree. I don´t think she abused him in any way, ignoring him seems more plausible. I think the real problem is that Cat made it clear for Jon that he is not part of the family although he spent all his time with them, loved them etc.

[James Arryn]

I think GRRM stated that Cat always made Jon aware he was not welcome or trusted.

Because he ___________....

[Winter's Knight]

Re Cat and Bran climbing.

His mother was terrified that one day Bran would slip off a wall and kill himself. He told her that he wouldn’t, but she never believed him.

Once she made him promise that he would stay on the ground. He had managed to keep that promise for almost a fortnight, miserable every day, until one night he had gone out the window of his bedroom when his brothers were fast asleep.

He confessed his crime the next day in a fit of guilt. Lord Eddard ordered him to the godswood to cleanse himself. Guards were posted to see that Bran remained there alone all night to reflect on his disobedience. The next morning Bran was nowhere to be seen. They finally found him fast asleep in the upper branches of the tallest sentinel in the grove.

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. “You’re not my son,” he told Bran when they fetched him down, “you’re a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you.”

Bran did his best, although he did not think he ever really fooled her. Since his father would not forbid it, she turned to others. Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes. Bran was not impressed. There were crows’ nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand. None of them had ever shown the slightest bit of interest in pecking out his eyes.

Later, Maester Luwin built a little pottery boy and dressed him in Bran’s clothes and flung him off the wall into the yard below, to demonstrate what would happen to Bran if he fell. That had been fun, but afterward Bran just looked at the maester and said, “I’m not made of clay. And anyhow, I never fall.”

Then for a while the guards would chase him whenever they saw him on the roofs, and try to haul him down. That was the best time of all. It was like playing a game with his brothers, except that Bran always won. None of the guards could climb half so well as Bran, not even Jory. Most of the time they never saw him anyway. People never looked up. That was another thing he liked about climbing; it was almost like being invisible.

Cat does try everything but with Ned actively undermining her, it's not surprising Bran didn't listen.

[Minsc]

I think GRRM stated that Cat always made Jon aware he was not welcome or trusted.

Because he ___________....

And Theon always feared Ned and his longsword, yet that never affects Ned's ranking as a father/person because how he isn't Theon's father. Thus, the same should be held for Catelyn and her relationship with Jon.

[Er Rn]

Best: Catelyn, Maege Mormont, Ellaria Sand, Gilly

Worst: Lysa and Cersei

[Mladen]

I think GRRM stated that Cat always made Jon aware he was not welcome or trusted.

Because he ___________....

July 14, 1999

Chronology, Timeline, and Catelyn

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

Here is the best SSM describing their relationship...

[grand old duke of stark]

Best: Cat, Olenna, Maege Mormont, probably Margaery's mum, Marya Seaworth.

Worst: Lysa, Selyse (because she probably would agree to Mel burning Shireen).

[Ludd]

Look all the mothers behave like MOTHERS. They each do their best according to their own abilities and personalities. They have strengths and weaknesses.

In terms of raising a capable child Lyssa Arryn performs badly BUT Robin was already sickly and it is not clear how she would have behaved if she had four health kids.

Cersai protected her kids as best she could - Joffrey was too strong willed for her to control.

Ellaria Sand seems pretty modern and sensible but we barely know her

Joanna Lannister died too early so we have no idea what she was like but she seems to have been a good sort of woman. She has picked up on the possible twincest and would have stopped it before it started for real. She would have arranged good marriages with the Dornish and kept Jaime safe from shame. Cersai and Oberyn might have made a good match and Elai and Jaime.

Mylessa Tarly - tried to be kind with Sam

Lady Smallwood - seemed wise and kind to all children

Then there is Catelyn. She was an OK mother but she made mistakes. She rather neglected Rickon in her grief for Bran and I think leaving Rickon behind when she ran off to KL was not especially motherly. She chose her dying father ahead of Rickon and Bran, which while understandable is not consistent with here being a super careful mother. Cat did NOT handle either of the girls especially well - Sansa too soft and Aryea too wild. And let us not even raise her spiteful treatment of Jon, who was bastard or not just a child.