Ted Chang Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Is Stannis the rightful king? Well, we all know the arguments, but essentially as the eventual and convoluted heir to a surper he is only rightful if he can enforce it. I think that he will sit on the Iron Throne, mainly because of all the oblique references to it and Melisandre's visions, but my guess is it will be a short and painful experience for him. Either that or his iron sense of duty will oblige him to stand aside with a better candidate comes along, that candidate currently knocking about in Black up North... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Is Stannis the rightful king? Well, we all know the arguments, but essentially as the eventual and convoluted heir to a surper he is only rightful if he can enforce it. I think that he will sit on the Iron Throne, mainly because of all the oblique references to it and Melisandre's visions, but my guess is it will be a short and painful experience for him. Either that or his iron sense of duty will oblige him to stand aside with a better candidate comes along, that candidate currently knocking about in Black up North... How is Jon a better candidate? The Targaryen dynasty ended after RR. Stannis is the lawful heir to the current ruling Baratheon dynasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Chang Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 How is Jon a better candidate? The Targaryen dynasty ended after RR. Stannis is the lawful heir to the current ruling Baratheon dynasty. Well, I can only speak as if I were there. Placing myself as a neutral if the proven son of RT turned up I'd be backing him over the brother of the usurper who gave us Mad Cersei Lannister as a queen regent. That of course is just my opinion, but in all these things I try and put myself there looking out, not here looking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Well, I can only speak as if I were there. Placing myself as a neutral if the proven son of RT turned up I'd be backing him over the brother of the usurper who gave us Mad Cersei Lannister as a queen regent. That of course is just my opinion, but in all these things I try and put myself there looking out, not here looking in. And therein lies the problem. Proof. In-story, Stannis could not unequivocally prove that Joffery, Myrcella and Tommen were illegitimate and should Jon decide to make a claim to the IT, he will encounter a similar problem - proving beyond doubt he is Rhaegar's legitimate son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Contrary to Eddard Cersei has hundreds of guards sworn to Casterly Rock in the Red Keep and those Lannister guards will do as she says. Unlike Eddard she has also control of the king. And if Mace would try to seize the regency, Varys will quickly ensure that Mace will be going back to Highgarden for his own funeral. Varys needs Cersei to cause chaos to ppave the way for Aegon as the great saviour and will not allow anyone else than her as regent for there is no better in causing chaos than Cersei. Nope. Cersei has a negligible amount (50? 100? About that) of guards sworn to Kevan Lannister in the Red Keep, who did instruct them not to listen to Cersei. Every guardsmen loyal to Cersei found a noose at Riverrun, thanks to Tyrion. And Randyll Tarly and Mace Tyrell each got ~20,000 men or the like in the city and the Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 If their desire is an heir to Robert, I suppose it might be Stannis. Perhaps the Faith will take over for a time? The faith hate Stannis because of R'hyllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hello all. I have been looking at many topics, but this is my first, I may have troubles going exactly where I want to go in my argumentation. Well, let's go into this: In the upcoming sixth book of ASOIAF, we will read about Cersei's trial, which she has chosen to be a trial by battle, and where her innocence (lol), will be defended by the great unknown knight called Robert Strong. I am of the ones who really think this UnGregor is just a great scam by Qyburn and that it will prove completely useless. Anyhow, in my opinion, Cersei will lose: her trial, her head. But let's just recap the charges brought forth by the High Septon: -High treason (kind of general) -Regicide (Robert Baratheon) -Deicide (Previous High Septon) -Incest That got me thinking... Should she lose, Tommen and Myrcella will be seen as full Lannister incestuous spawn, and their claim over the Iron Throne will be widely considered as invalid. And in this case, what will happen exactly? First of all, will Kevan, Mace and all the Tyrell bannermen on the small council suddenly decide that the Faith has suddenly no legitimacy to juge this trial, since it will mean that Margeary is no longer Queen? If not, considering that the throne belong to the new Baratheon dynasty, I believe they will search for uncles. But, Renly is dead and Stannis is a worshiper of red demon according to the High Septon himself. What's supposed to happen then, in the wait for Aegon to march on KL? (Sorry if it's unclear, badly formulated, full of poor English or whatever) Aegon will arrive in KL in time and Cersei will win. But when Aegon dies and Cersei is disgraced this question will come again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Chang Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 And therein lies the problem. Proof. In-story, Stannis could not unequivocally prove that Joffery, Myrcella and Tommen were illegitimate and should Jon decide to make a claim to the IT, he will encounter a similar problem - proving beyond doubt he is Rhaegar's legitimate son. Yes, I'm wondering if and how GRRM will accomplish this. Possibly a magical solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Well there's the obvious way, who is going to doubt he's the son of Rhaegar if he's on a dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Well there's the obvious way, who is going to doubt he's the son of Rhaegar if he's on a dragon? Even besides that, if he has a dragon, who is going to care whether or not he is Rhaegar's son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Yes, I'm wondering if and how GRRM will accomplish this. Possibly a magical solution? Why should he prove it? That connection only matters on the personal level, not on the political one. Lord Commander Snow has no claim to any inheritance and if he goes for the throne regardless, he'll do it based on personal connections to the movers and shakers, not based on who his father was. And that assumes him to go for the throne, quite a stretch on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Chang Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Why should he prove it? That connection only matters on the personal level, not on the political one. Lord Commander Snow has no claim to any inheritance and if he goes for the throne regardless, he'll do it based on personal connections to the movers and shakers, not based on who his father was. And that assumes him to go for the throne, quite a stretch on its own. Well, if I was going to throw in my lot with the son of Rahegar I'd be wanting some evidence that he wasn't just Lambert Simnel or similar. As for whether he is who he may be and would go for the throne, I suspect that the decision would be made for him by others and he would need some serious persuading, based on his character. However if it was needed to unite the land against the common enemy then I'd think he'd do it. Personally I think it would likely be Tyrion who convinces him, should that scenario play out. They already have the beginnings of a relationship. I still imagine the three heads as Dany, Jon and Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 In that case the Throne will go to Stannis, because he would be Robert's true heir but I guess Cersei will be found inocent She created her own enemy, she gave weapons to the Faith Militant, it's really ironic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Well, if I was going to throw in my lot with the son of Rahegar I'd be wanting some evidence that he wasn't just Lambert Simnel or similar. As for whether he is who he may be and would go for the throne, I suspect that the decision would be made for him by others and he would need some serious persuading, based on his character. However if it was needed to unite the land against the common enemy then I'd think he'd do it. Personally I think it would likely be Tyrion who convinces him, should that scenario play out. They already have the beginnings of a relationship. I still imagine the three heads as Dany, Jon and Tyrion. But who would be interested in throwing in their lots with the son of Rhaegar? The Northmen would rather follow Ned Stark's nephew, the Riverlanders Robb Stark's cousin and destinated heir, the Valemen Ned Stark's nephew or Sansa's cousin, the Dornish won't follow Lyanna's son and have the choice between Aegon and Dany regardless, same for the Reachmen and the Crownlanders, the Ironborn don't care either way. In the political arena, being Rhaegar's son is not an advantage for Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Chang Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 But who would be interested in throwing in their lots with the son of Rhaegar? The Northmen would rather follow Ned Stark's nephew, the Riverlanders Robb Stark's cousin and destinated heir, the Valemen Ned Stark's nephew or Sansa's cousin, the Dornish won't follow Lyanna's son and have the choice between Aegon and Dany regardless, same for the Reachmen and the Crownlanders, the Ironborn don't care either way. In the political arena, being Rhaegar's son is not an advantage for Jon. Dragons, I suspect, will be a motivating factor. As for relying on loyalty, I wouldn't trust any of them the moment my back was turned. The majority of the nobility will go where the best chance lies. Look how quickly Renly's followers went over to Stannis. You can bet the day before Renly's murder they had no such idea but circumstances can quickly change. All they needed was a convenient patsy in Catelyn to make them forget who had the most to gain from Renly's death. None of us know for sure what twists and turns GRRM has in mind but he has to drive towards a conclusion and if Jon is a part of that conclusion then it seems to me he will need credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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