Two Onion Knights?

[LittleJon Umber]

When Melisandre introduced Jon Snow to the Lord of Bones (Mance Rayder) following the return of the rangers he sent North, she explained what it took to produce a strong glamor.

"The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of finger bones."

This struck me as an unusual example to give and it got me thinking that perhaps Davos' finger bones were somehow recovered from the Blackwater. Could Melisandre be using/ plan to use a fake Davos to promote her agenda?

Her 'Davos' could return from Manderley and give whatever message she wanted, he could instruct the Kings men that remained at the Wall. All in all, he would prove a useful tool.

[Fire Eater]

I think she does plan on using a fake Davos as that line seems too iffy to be a throwaway. Davos is Mel's biggest rival and impediment in Stannis's court. If she becomes stressed and desperate, I think she may try to knock off Davos, and replace him with a glamoured queensman.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. Melisandre just draws from the list of possible examples. As someone living on Dragonstone for years, she was familiar with Davos' fabled finger bones and it came up naturally.

[JungWheats]

I always got the vibe that she realized she could have done that a long time ago, as she was talking to Jon. That happens to me a lot; I'll be conversing and have a realization as it came out of my mouth. "I could use this....or that...or...those damn finger bones."

[LittleJon Umber]

I think Davos reflects too often about his lost finger bones for it not to be significant. With Davos presumed dead at Manderley's hands and off in search of Rickon, Mel's Davos could return telling a tale of Manderleys deception and pledge of support to Stannis. It will not be until the real Davos appears that anyone tinks to question him.

Davos is a fighter and man of honour, the sort of man Jon would respect. His council would be welcomed by a reborn Jon Snow.

[The Old Tongue]

No. Melisandre just draws from the list of possible examples. As someone living on Dragonstone for years, she was familiar with Davos' fabled finger bones and it came up naturally.

yeah, because it's not within the realm of possibility…at all…and wouldn't make for an interesting subplot whatsoever. GRRM never foreshadows events.

Seven Hells, it bewilders me how many of these plausible speculations are shot down with such authority and yet so little insight. I don't adhere to every theory on this site but until the next couple books come out I'm not going to discredit the ones I don't agree with. I think this is an interesting observation, whether it plays out or not who's to say but GRRM has certainly put the gears in motion should he decide to go this route.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

yeah, because it's not within the realm of possibility…at all…and wouldn't make for an interesting subplot whatsoever. GRRM never foreshadows events.

Seven Hells, it bewilders me how many of these plausible speculations are shot down with such authority and yet so little insight. I don't adhere to every theory on this site but until the next couple books come out I'm not going to discredit the ones I don't agree with. I think this is an interesting observation, whether it plays out or not who's to say but GRRM has certainly put the gears in motion should he decide to go this route.

Except that getting Davos' bag of fingerbones from the middle of a naval battle is pretty much impossible. If Mel had that much power, Stannis would have been sitting the Iron Throne 30 seconds after Robert bit it.

[Fire Eater]

Except that getting Davos' bag of fingerbones from the middle of a naval battle is pretty much impossible. If Mel had that much power, Stannis would have been sitting the Iron Throne 30 seconds after Robert bit it.

I think that is a false conclusion. How would Mel being able recover a bag of fingerbones from the sea be able to help Stannis sit the IT? As for impossible, any more impossible than girl hatching petrified dragon eggs?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think that is a false conclusion. How would Mel being able recover a bag of fingerbones from the sea be able to help Stannis sit the IT? As for impossible, any more impossible than girl hatching petrified dragon eggs?

There are two actions Mel would have to be able to achieve: To identify and locate the bones, and to move them to Dragonstone. While she herself was at Dragonstone. The first is already a pretty impressive feat of clairvoyance. I'd consider it unlikely to find the bones in a mere creek two meters long while standing in it. And moving the bag of bones is teleportation or something related of the highest magnitude.

With the same skills, she could have identified and moved any plans or letters of Tywin, Tyrion, or whomever.

Or if it works two-way, outright slipped poison in their drinks from 1,000 miles away.

[Fire Eater]

There are two actions Mel would have to be able to achieve: To identify and locate the bones, and to move them to Dragonstone. While she herself was at Dragonstone. The first is already a pretty impressive feat of clairvoyance. I'd consider it unlikely to find the bones in a mere creek two meters long while standing in it. And moving the bag of bones is teleportation or something related of the highest magnitude.

With the same skills, she could have identified and moved any plans or letters of Tywin, Tyrion, or whomever.

Or if it works two-way, outright slipped poison in their drinks from 1,000 miles away.

She couldn't use this for letters, she didn't know what letters were being sent to where, and didn't have the information to select with which ravens or what letters as she was more focused on battles and such. Letters are carried by ravens, and or on land in closed rooms while the sea is always moving and fluctuating with the current and storms. The current could be moving towards Dragonstone.

[bemused]

I was just posting about this on another thread ,so I'm pasting it over here, to save my two typing fingers. :D

There's a lot we don't know about shadow babies... Is there a limit to their range? What exactly can they do ? Ummm... they're powerful enough to physically slice through armour and to throw a person off the battlements , for sure, but ... Is more or less life force drained , depending on the task at hand ? Unknown. And... we don't know that Stannis only made two SBs, we only saw the use of two. ( both were physical tasks )

This raises some interesting questions for me.. When Davos is released from the dungeon, he thinks Stannis looks like he's aged 10 yrs. That's much more than the effects he noticed before the Blackwater. Yet both SBs we know of were used before then..while Stannis shows the greatest wasting/ageing afterward.

A few people have pointed out that Mel wouldn't have been happy about being kept away from the battle , and have suggested that she might have followed to a discreet distance. Could be.. and she would at least have been trying to follow events through her flames. I ,for one, would be very surprised if she didn't have some plan to try to rescue Stannis if he needed it. She knows that sometimes her visions are a bit off , and everything she's doing hinges on Stannis. ...As it turned out , he didn't need rescue... but Davos did . ( OTOH, she may have always thought Davos would need rescue, and that it would be vital to Stannis, going forward. She seems to have known about Mathos.)

Davos doesn't know how he could have miraculously got all the way to that island, from going down on the wrong side of the chain. ...He doesn't know how he lost his "luck", either... and then in ADWD Mel just happens to mention a bag of finger bones as one thing that could help in creating a glamour...?!

(A rag, a bone , a hank of hair and even dead man's boots are examples she might give generally..there's a lot of them about..but a bag of fingerbones is too specific ..She must have them.)

I'm thinking Mel could have had a shadow baby held in reserve for a possible rescue of Stannis , which she then used for Davos , having seen Davos as a vital asset to Stannis in her flames. If that would have required an especially powerful SB, it might account for the dramatic deterioration in Stannis' appearance.

[Django]

Neat topic! I agree with some of the replies that it's unlikey that she was able to locate the bag of bones to use them for the reasons already stated and also for the fact that Davos no longer has the bag of bones, so Stannis or anyone else would likely recognize that fake Davos is wearing the bones as being odd.

But I do agree it's insteresting and noteworthy that she mentioned the bag of bones specifically. Perhaps she had used them in the past? Prior to the Blackwater, when he loses the finger bones, I'm pretty sure we only see Melisandre in the prologue of aCoK and in Davos Chapters... maybe also in one Catelyn chapter too, but Davos doesn't seem to anything odd or out of character in the non-Davos chapters that would serve Melisandre.

One thing that is also mentioned that Melisandre chapter is that she remembers how difficult it was to get Stannis to trust her, in the same way that Jon doesn't trust her. Maybe she previously used a fake Davos to somehow gain Stannis' trust?

There's so much in that Melisandre chapter, I think I'll reread it again.

[ShinD]

I only noticed that detail on my last reading, and I also thought it was strangely specific as an example.

But like most of you I'm at lost when I look for a possible use of a fake Davos.

Maybe we're in the wrong when we assume that anybody who knows that Davos lost his fingerbag won't be fooled. That was my first reaction, but it's because I know Melissandre is capable of such glamours, unlike most of the characters in the book.

I feel like most people would rather accept that someone recovered the fingerbag and gave it back to Davos, than suspect him for a fake. Most people believe what they see.

[BitsOfBrains]

Yeah I caught that line too and thought it was a pretty obvious, "yeah I got them bones stashed... just in case."

I really think Mel has love for Davos though and wouldn't kill him.

In her first POV she talks about how she keeps Devan as her personal chimp because she thinks Davos has suffered enough and doesn't want the kid to die. She also talks about how she knows Davos is completely loyal via fire TV and knows that the list of men who love Stannis can be counted on Davos shortened hand.

She knows that it might be useful to have a fake Davos, but she wouldn't kill him.

He is the one and only person who knows that she can make shadow demons with her girl parts, which is a dangerous piece of info to be out there. Seems to me thats a pretty compelling reason to have someone killed, but she doesn't because she has love for him and knows his value.

[wargalicious]

In regards to the pooh-poohing of the idea that Melisandre might have Davos' finger bones squirrelled away, I simply don't think it's all that unlikely: when I first read that passage I was immediately struck by it and almost immediately assumed that she had taken them from Davos BEFORE the Battle of Blackwater. I mean, he touches his pouch constantly up to that point but it's not like he examines the contents or does DNA testing on them to determine if they are genuine or anything. The pouch could have easily been replaced with a similar pouch while he was sleeping on Dragonstone(by Devan ) for example and he might never have known.



Who knows what will happen, but I do think it curious for to her to mention FINGER BONES of all things as potential components for a glamor spell. My guess is that if Stannis indeed fakes his own death, he might impersonate Davos.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

... almost immediately assumed that she had taken them from Davos BEFORE the Battle of Blackwater

Very well done... what struck me as odd is that among the thousands of people we get to see in ASOIAF there isn't the classic almost magical fantasy pickpocket who wanders through the epos stealing everything that's not nailed down while nobody is noticing.¹

Or maybe it is just me not noticing it, but Melisandre would have had a number of opportunities to exchange the sack for another or 3D-copy (in stone or clay or whatever) and exchange its contents. Maybe she did?

... if Stannis indeed fakes his own death, he might impersonate Davos.

Ooh, this is my second Post and it is already off topic, but when was the last time we saw Stannis eat or drink anything?

Edit: ad ¹⁾ Ok, there's a faceless man in Westeros, appearing in several kinds of places - a thief taking life, and sometimes, a thing...

[wargalicious]

I seem to remember Stannis drinking water wiht lemon and a pinch of salt in Dance with dragons.

[king of the north portland]

Acsio finger bones!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey @wargalicious,

I seem to remember Stannis drinking water with lemon and a pinch of salt in Dance with dragons.

I wished there was a search function. Am still busy rereading ASoS and cross-checking the other 4 books.

Thanks, I hope I will not forget and finally get where Stannis for the last time reportedly eats or drinks.

[Bran's Tourney]

Neat topic- just stumbled upon Mel's finger bone reference during my re read.

Someone suggested maybe Mel was at BW... Any ruby-clad characters in that scene that could possibly be a disguised Mel? Someone close to Davos who could snatch his finger bones before all he'll breaks loose?