Sultan Of Sleaze Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 When I first read Barbrey Dustin's grievance against the Starks, something about it didn't make sense to me. I thought at first maybe she was faking it for tactical reasons like Wyman Manderly does but that didn't seem right either. Her grievance is due to Ned Stark not returning her husband, William Dustin's bones after he died at the Tower of Joy. Returning of bones is very important in the North so why would Ned buried Lord Dustin in a cairn in Dorne when the war was over? If the load weight would have been too hard to bear for Ned and Howland Reed, then why not send knight down to Dorne on an honor mission to retrieve the bones any time over the next 16 years of relative peace. Ned traveled with Dawn to Starfall to the family of the man who killed Ned's banner men instead of returning the bones of a man who died fighting for Ned. I believe that Lady Dustin's grievance is real and justified but I have a crackpot theory for Ned's motivation for doing this. -- Part I: Arthur Dayne did not die at the Tower of Joy-- In GoT, Ned says that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed. He doesn't say that Arthur Dayne died in his POV, he simply says that if Howland Reed wasn't there then Arthur Dayne would have killed them. This seems like a strategic choice of words. Howland Reed would not be much a physical threat to one of the greatest knights in recent memory but that is not to say that Reed could have not persuaded him through his words. My theory is that Howland tells Dayne about what happened to the Targaryen babies. If Lyanna did have a child with Rheagar at the ToJ, then both Ned and Arthur Dayne would have reasons for wanting to protect the child from a similar fate. Dayne would probably know by then that all is lost except for the child and as long as "Arthur Dayne" was alive, it might put both their lives at risk. --Part II: Ned helped Arthur Dayne to fake his death-- My theory is that Ned used Lord Dustin's bones to pass them off as Arthur Dayne's bones. This would make it much more believable that Dayne was actually dead. Ned traveled to Starfall with Dawn (and possibly Arthur) and there I think Ned explained their plan to the Dayne's. The tipoff to me that the Dayne's of Starfall knew about this is Edric Dayne, who's nickname is Ned who was named after these events. Common name or not, who would name their child after the man who rebelled against the kingdom, killed their brother who dedicated his life to the kingdom, and rumor has it, caused their sister to commit suicide? No one. That's why I think that they were in on it. Ashara may have faked her death too especially since they never found her body. As for the baby, there are a few theory's that fit here like R+L=J or the baby swap theory. --Part III: If he isn't dead, where is Arthur Dayne-- This is where things get messy. Personally, I think he is Mance Rayder. The Night's Watch would be a great place for him to hide out and plan. His identity could be easily washed away from him and it would be the last place anyone would expect him. Now the book presents plenty of conflicting info on Mance that would say otherwise like the story about how he was a wildling child recovered by the NW. I think these stories are not true. Most of this info is provided by Mance who frequently lies throughout the series. For example, Mance claims to recognized Jon from when he snuck into Winterfell for King Robert's visit. This sounds like a believable story except Benjen was also there and should have recognized Mance on the spot. Also the timeline for that doesn't really fit since at that time, Mance would have been in the middle of uniting all the Wilding Tribes with all their different languages. Seems silly for the Wildling Leader to leave all that for a weeks just to gawk at the King especially if they felt that the Others were such a threat. More likely that he recognizes Jon for other reasons. Another thing is what a remarkable fighter Mance is. He easily beat Jon despite how formidable Jon is portrayed in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance Layder Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 This actually makes a lot of sense, idk about the Mance bit, but bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/read ALL of the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I don't why and how Arthur could be alive and I most definitely don't believe that Mance is anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I don't why and how Arthur could be alive and I most definitely don't believe that Mance is anyone else.he is alive in The Neck :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Neat idea, but one small detail. The Daynes did not name their son after Ned Stark. Just because the nicknames are the same doesn't make it the same name. Other than that, nice work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 he is alive in The Neck :commie: I had forget about that. But I think that he is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Widow Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I don't why and how Arthur could be alive and I most definitely don't believe that Mance is anyone else. Yeah, I think it's highly unplausible that someone could fake growing up from babe to man with the whole of the NW and make the NW believe it as well. It's not like it's only Mance himself who confirms this background. We know it from Qhorin Halfhand after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I had forget about that. But I think that he is dead. yep I'm 99.99% sure he is dead but GO 0.01 % ! :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat King Robert Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Mance Rayder is Mance Rayder and no one else. The bit about Benjen recognising Mance: Benjen never met Mance. Never. Neither Benjen or Eddard met Mance (before the feast at Winterfell). There's a post about Jojen and Merre being the son and daughter of Ashara Dayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat King Robert Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Mance Rayder is Mance Rayder and no one else. The bit about Benjen recognising Mance: Benjen never met Mance. Never. Neither Benjen or Eddard met Mance (before the feast at Winterfell). There's a post about Jojen and Merre being the son and daughter of Ashara Dayne. Ninja'd by Arthur Dayne's Honor (Ironically enough) :ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 If Lyanna did have a child with Rheagar at the ToJ, then both Ned and Arthur Dayne would have reasons for wanting to protect the child from a similar fate. Dayne would probably know by then that all is lost except for the child and as long as "Arthur Dayne" was alive, it might put both their lives at risk. Ned did protect Jon by claiming he was his child. I don't see how Arthur Dayne still being alive would put both their lives at risk. Robert did, afterall, pardon both Jaime and Barristan. I dont buy the Mance = Arthur Dayne theory either. As others have pointed out it is not just Mance who confirms his background. Also, there is no evidence that Benjen even met Mance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 yep I'm 99.99% sure he is dead but GO 0.01 % ! :commie: I will support you GO ARTHUR :commie: GO ARTHUR! :commie: Yeah, I think it's highly unplausible that someone could fake growing up from babe to man with the whole of the NW and make the NW believe it as well. It's not like it's only Mance himself who confirms this background. We know it from Qhorin Halfhand after all. Agree. Everyone on NW knows who Mance is, there is no way he could be Rhaegar or Arthur. There's a post about Jojen and Merre being the son and daughter of Ashara Dayne. Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe42m1 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 based on pretty much every description we have of arthur dayne, i can't see a reason why he would run or fake his death and go into hiding. he seems like the kind who would rather die doing his duty than play kingmaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Well, Mance is quite the skilled swordsman... But I don't know...I mean, I do think the OP is on to something regarding Dustin's bones. Something strange happened during that fight, I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g.o.d Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Stannis would certainly recognize Arthur Dayne if he was Mance And I think Mance recongized Jon thanks to Ghost while he was in Winterfell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sultan Of Sleaze Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Edric tells Arya that he is called Ned in Chapter 43 (Arya VIII I think with the Ghost of High Heart). Also I think there was a King Edric Stark in there for good measure. Mance being Arthur Dayne theory is where things get sketchy especially with the eye color. I just love the idea of the man considered to the pinnicle of knightly virtue turned out to be one of the characters who does the most dishonorable things (at least traditionally speaking like the oath breaking). Especially since one of the strongest themes in the story is how characters do dishonorable things for surprisingly noble reasons such as Jamie killing the king to save KL. Plus the little things, like how he left the NW when they wouldn't let him continue to where his black cloak mended with the red swatches (obvious Targ colors). Personally there is alot to the Mance descriptions and actions which don't pass the sniff test for logic. He might not be Arthur Dayne but I think we will discover there is more to him than we have been led to believe. I just like this theory more than saying something nuts like Mance is Rheagar glamoring himself to look as nondescript as possible. I am a strong believer of H+A=J&M as opposed to Ashara being Septa Lamore. I didn't want to touch too much on that and other theories that did or didn't fit because I would writing for weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Saga Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I do not think he is Mance (the cracpot theory about Quorin Halfand being him far more believeble,and a good parallel to Jaimie).But I have a theory that maybe Mance was the member of the nightwatch,trying to recruit people,during the tourney of the harrenhall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckfield Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 But how is not returning lord Dustin's bones implying Dayne's still alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 So Dayne stopped fighting, but everyone else carried on? No, I don't thinks so. Picture it: they all start fighting and killing each other until it's just Arthur, Ned and Howland left, and then Arthur agrees to abandon his duty? His sworn brothers are dead and you think he'd just give up? No. The tragic thing about that fight is that the Kingsguard were honour bound to fight to the death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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