Mystery of Nine

[Lord Martin]

It recently occurred to me that the number 9 appears on at least two occasions in the book and I question the significance of them.

The first passage that gave me pause was this one:

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. "They're watching us," he whispered. "The old gods."

So, its very rare for 9 weirwoods to grow together and they are facing inward. If we are correct that Weirwoods are used to see all over Westeros and preserve the memory of what happened, then it would seem odd to put nine all in the same space. The only reason there would be nine weirwoods in one place is if something very very important was supposed to happen in front of the trees. Some sort of ritual?

[as an aside I also wonder what the "Ruby code" people made of this? No Targs or Lannisters here unless its a hint at R+L=J).

The next passage that reminded me of that Jon passage was the description of the crown of the King in the North:

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

Why nine swords on the crown? No mention of the import. Nine swords on the crown, nine weirwoods beyond the Wall. I suppose this could be a coincidence, but I have a hard time believing that.

I then recalled this bit from Arya's leaving KL:

Come morning, when Praed did not awaken, Arya realized that it had been his coughing she had missed. They dug a grave of their own then, burying the sellsword where he'd slept. Yoren stripped him of his valuables before they threw the dirt on him. One man claimed his boots, another his dagger. His mail shirt and helm were parceled out. His longsword Yoren handed to the Bull. "Arms like yours, might be you can learn to use this," he told him. A boy called Tarber tossed a handful of acorns on top of Praed's body, so an oak might grow to mark his place.

The idea of planting a tree to mark the location of a body seems a logical thing to do. I suspect its been done before. And I wonder if the grove of nine is such an instance. Of course that then begs the question, who are those nine?

I considered that they could have been the last hero's companions, but Nan said there were a dozen, so that's not it.

I tried counting the great northern houses that we know to be of the FIrst Men: Stark, Bolton, Umber, Mormont, Glover, Hornwood, Tallhart, Dustin and Ryswell. But that doesn't work either, what about Cerwyn or Reed?

Interestingly, the Wiki lists a total of 10 "Brandon Starks," our Bran being the 10th. So there are 9 dead Brandon Starks. But even that isn't idea because one died across the sea.

There is another grove of weirwood trees mentioned prominently in the book, at High Heart:

The next day they rode to a place called High Heart, a hill so lofty that from atop it Arya felt as though she could see half the world. Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods. Arya and Gendry walked around the hill to count them. There were thirty-one, some so wide that she could have used them for a bed.

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. "No harm can ever come to those as sleep here," the singer said. Arya thought that must be true; the hill was so high and the surrounding lands so flat that no enemy could approach unseen.

The smallfolk hereabouts shunned the place, Tom told her; it was said to be haunted by the ghosts of the children of the forest who had died here when the Andal king named Erreg the Kinslayer had cut down their grove. Arya knew about the children of the forest, and about the Andals too, but ghosts did not frighten her. She used to hide in the crypts of Winterfell when she was little, and play games of come-into-my-castle and monsters and maidens amongst the stone kings on their thrones.

And High Heart reminds me in many ways of the Fist of the First Men.

I cannot seem to puzzle out more than this. But I'd be curious to see any other thoughts on the significance of the number 9, especially as it pertains to the First Men and Northern culture.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

Very intruiguing ideas.

There is an excellent analysis by He Who Eschwes The White Of The Egg about the 9 weirwoods at the grove relating to the 9 dead rangers Melisandre has seen in a vision and described in very similar words. If you're interested, it's here. It's a relatively long read, but I promise it's mind blowing and it also addresses the ruby symbolism.

[First of My Name]

The kink between the weirwood grove and Robb's crown is interesting, but I don't know if it has anything to do with the Arya bit. Furthermore, I agree with Dornishman's widow.

[Blutraven]

Maybe nine could be to the First Men what seven is to the Andals?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

There are nine free cities.

[BearIslander]

IIRC, the Eyrie is described at first to have nine towers, and then suddenly it has seven.

[Lord Martin]

There are some interesting points in the Yolkboy post. Its a little metta and I don't like the idea that the ruby reference in AGOT is actually a reference to Mel's visions in ADWD. I'd like to think it has significance within the oath scene itself.

But the tie with the 9 rangers is interesting. Makes me wonder if 9 rangers rode out before and never came back? Or 9 green seers or something along those lines?

9 figures in black could also be a homage to Tolkien's Nazgul, but that doesn't help solve the mystery.

There is a Celtic myth or legend, Niall of the Nine Hostages. Niall was a high king in Irish lore, while he was a historical figure much said about him is myth. Niall was reportedly made King by beating his brothers in various contests set up by his father. In the last one, the sons have to kiss a crone. The eldest two refuse, the third only kisses halfheartedly, but Niall gives her a true kiss. The crone is then revealed to be a lovely maiden and Niall becomes King.

There are some parallels for those who think Mel is really an old crone under a glamour. Could she be the one to bestow a kingship on Jon in some way.

I appreciate the feed back, any other thoughts on the significance of nine?

[Lord Martin]

I agree 7 is important to the Faith in many ways and I don't doubt there might be some parallels. I suppose the seven plus R'Hollor and The Great Other total nine. Nine Gods of a Pantheon?

And the nine free cities is very interesting, but what is the connection between the former freehold of Valyria and Westeros? I thought the nine free cities emerged as independent powers after the fall of Valyria?

I suppose there are parallels between the Doom and Hardhomme, but I don't know that there's enough to ferret out a connection to that nine. But its a good point.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Interesting ideas.

I actually wanted to point you in the direction of yolkboy's ideas on this, but I see DW has beat me to it :)

Blutraven could be correct that nine was a significant number to First Men. Though I doubt it has anything to do with their pantheon as the old gods, being largely animistic, seem to be beyond number.

What I wonder about is the significance of the iron spikes in the crown, since we know that iron is believed to keep the dead at rest and may have some effect on wights. Perhaps nine signifies the original NW with their iron weapons, which would tie in nicely with yolkboy's analysis of the nine trees and nine rangers.

I'd be interested to see if there are other references specifically to nine and iron related to the NW or the Wall.

[Carcetti]

There are some interesting points in the Yolkboy post. Its a little metta and I don't like the idea that the ruby reference in AGOT is actually a reference to Mel's visions in ADWD. I'd like to think it has significance within the oath scene itself.

But the tie with the 9 rangers is interesting. Makes me wonder if 9 rangers rode out before and never came back? Or 9 green seers or something along those lines?

9 figures in black could also be a homage to Tolkien's Nazgul, but that doesn't help solve the mystery.

There is a Celtic myth or legend, Niall of the Nine Hostages. Niall was a high king in Irish lore, while he was a historical figure much said about him is myth. Niall was reportedly made King by beating his brothers in various contests set up by his father. In the last one, the sons have to kiss a crone. The eldest two refuse, the third only kisses halfheartedly, but Niall gives her a true kiss. The crone is then revealed to be a lovely maiden and Niall becomes King.

There are some parallels for those who think Mel is really an old crone under a glamour. Could she be the one to bestow a kingship on Jon in some way.

I appreciate the feed back, any other thoughts on the significance of nine?

This is actually quite interesting. Imagine Mel giving Jon the kiss of life, thereby losing her glamour and being revealed to be an old crone. It also ties in with theories of Jon being King, KitN or NightsKing. Any kind of king basically. Just not sure how the "nine" ties into this..

interesting find though, gonna see what wikipedia has to say on the matter

[Lord Martin]

Interesting ideas.

I actually wanted to point you in the direction of yolkboy's ideas on this, but I see DW has beat me to it :)

Blutraven could be correct that nine was a significant number to First Men. Though I doubt it has anything to do with their pantheon as the old gods, being largely animistic, seem to be beyond number.

What I wonder about is the significance of the iron spikes in the crown, since we know that iron is believed to keep the dead at rest and may have some effect on wights. Perhaps nine signifies the original NW with their iron weapons, which would tie in nicely with yolkboy's analysis of the nine trees and nine rangers.

I'd be interested to see if there are other references specifically to nine and iron related to the NW or the Wall.

This is the track I had in mind. 9 swords = 9 heroes?, 9 trees = 9 graves? Nine ghosts maybe? I also wonder if 9 appears in the WF crypts at all or somewhere in NW history or lore. We may have to count lists, I'll try to keep this in mind for future re-reads.

I also like the idea of iron keeping the dead at rest. Could 9 heroes have been buried with their iron swords and 9 weirwoods grew up where they died? 9 original rangers?

The NW oath has nine sentences in it:

1. Night gathers and now my watch begins.

2. it shall not end until my death.

3. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

4.I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

5. I shall live and die at my post.

6. I am the sword in the darkness.

7. I am the watcher on the walls.

8.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

9. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Could be pure coincidence. But I wonder if a brother was supposed to say each sentence before each tree. I think there is theory out there that only NW brothers who swear before a heart tree are true brothers of the NW. This could bolster that concept.

[joluoto]

There were also apparently 9 Nine-Penny Kings.

Westeros has 9 major regions.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The number nine is also highly symbolic, being the square of three which in itself is extremely significant in religion and mythology. Because I'm feeling lazy, here's a link to some ideas about the number nine which may be interesting (especially religion, mythology and maths... the literature links are interesting too)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_(number)#Culture_and_mythology

A lot of these themes can probably be found in discussion on the Heresy threads.

[Iona]

In the last one, the sons have to kiss a crone. The eldest two refuse, the third only kisses halfheartedly, but Niall gives her a true kiss. The crone is then revealed to be a lovely maiden and Niall becomes King.

This is actually quite interesting. Imagine Mel giving Jon the kiss of life, thereby losing her glamour and being revealed to be an old crone. It also ties in with theories of Jon being King, KitN or NightsKing. Any kind of king basically. Just not sure how the "nine" ties into this..

interesting find though, gonna see what wikipedia has to say on the matter

Kissing a withered crone made me think of the Ghost of High Heart, she did want a sloppy kiss from - Lem, was it?

There's also Arya's first appearance at the Temple of the Many Faced God, where the Kindly Old Man wears the glamour of a icky skull with a worm and asks Arya to kiss him. When she does, the glamour dissolves.

[Kienn]

9 is a holy number for some religions, like occult and Bahai.

Of course 1-8 and 10-13 are holy for some religions too...

[The Young Black Dragon]

This is the track I had in mind. 9 swords = 9 heroes?, 9 trees = 9 graves? Nine ghosts maybe? I also wonder if 9 appears in the WF crypts at all or somewhere in NW history or lore. We may have to count lists, I'll try to keep this in mind for future re-reads.

I also like the idea of iron keeping the dead at rest. Could 9 heroes have been buried with their iron swords and 9 weirwoods grew up where they died? 9 original rangers?

The NW oath has nine sentences in it:

1. Night gathers and now my watch begins.

2. it shall not end until my death.

3. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

4.I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

5. I shall live and die at my post.

6. I am the sword in the darkness.

7. I am the watcher on the walls.

8.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

9. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Could be pure coincidence. But I wonder if a brother was supposed to say each sentence before each tree. I think there is theory out there that only NW brothers who swear before a heart tree are true brothers of the NW. This could bolster that concept.

The only argument I would have agaisnt this is the heretical vew that the vows changed after the Andals came. :dunno:

[joluoto]

The only argument I would have agaisnt this is the heretical vew that the vows changed after the Andals came. :dunno:

I'm sure the vows have changed multiple times even before the Andals came. Thousands of years is a long time, and things change.

[Ser Greg of House House]

It's interesting. Maybe there were nine different folks or families in the north and they united behind a King of Winter.

[First of My Name]

This is the track I had in mind. 9 swords = 9 heroes?, 9 trees = 9 graves? Nine ghosts maybe? I also wonder if 9 appears in the WF crypts at all or somewhere in NW history or lore. We may have to count lists, I'll try to keep this in mind for future re-reads.

I also like the idea of iron keeping the dead at rest. Could 9 heroes have been buried with their iron swords and 9 weirwoods grew up where they died? 9 original rangers?

The NW oath has nine sentences in it:

1. Night gathers and now my watch begins.

2. it shall not end until my death.

3. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

4.I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

5. I shall live and die at my post.

6. I am the sword in the darkness.

7. I am the watcher on the walls.

8.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

9. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Could be pure coincidence. But I wonder if a brother was supposed to say each sentence before each tree. I think there is theory out there that only NW brothers who swear before a heart tree are true brothers of the NW. This could bolster that concept.

Now this is interesting... I think the weirwood grove might have some greater significance to the Night's Watch than I previously thought, but have no idea how. Good catch.

[bemused]

It's a world with magic and 3 and it's multiples are important numbers in magic in our world. Therefore, so is 9 . 3x3 =9= magic multiplied by magic.. 9 can only be divided by 3 ,which still leaves you with a magic number, 3 ..etc... 12 is pretty cool,too. That's 4x3=12, but the 1 plus the 2 also equal 3... 31(prime #) cannot be broken down,or reduced, which also has power...and may be part of the reason that even though the trees at high heart have been cut down ,some power remains.. I'm not an expert,only a dabbler..but you get the idea.

If you leave Mormont out of your list of great northern houses ( Andals , not first men ) and Boltons, who may always have been outliers, add in Cerwyn and Reed..you're left with 9...but I'm not sure how the clans would fit in..Flint , Norrey ,Wull, Liddle, and so on. Not great houses, they seem closer to the old gods and magic , now.. but that may not always have been so. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some original magic equation for numbering the houses ( and a possible reason the Boltons may have been left out )..whatever it may have been.

So, to take 12 companions on a quest wanting to defeat some other magic and shore up your own ,would be pretty potent, I guess.. 12 has it's own strength, but add in the leader and you have 13 ..another very magic number, and like 31, a prime.

I agree that the 9 weirwoods with the faces looking in seem to form a spot designed for ritual ( or a kind of sanctuary, as the wildlings were using it ?) . I like the idea that only those who swear before a heart tree are truly connected to the magic of the wall..

As one who thinks that parts of the oath are just political chaff ..I'm kind of struggling with the 9 sentences...

Thinking of the crown.. I hope , if it's ever discovered, that someone ( like Val, maybe ) will know how to read runes. ( Also makes you wonder about Bronze Yohn's supposedly magic armour , doesn't it ?). Anyway, I fully expect the 9 swords will have a symbolic meaning and/or magical significance , in their number as well as the material they're crafted in.

If (as expected by many ) Winterfell is warded by / built with magic , it would follow that the crown, itself might also be , to some degree.

This fits with the (still nebulous) thoughts I've had for some time ,that it may have been pragmatic to bend the knee to the Targaryens, thus avoiding loss of life, despoiling assets, etc. , but magically speaking, damaging for Torrhen Stark to put off his crown.( contributing to the dangerous state the Starks and the North..and everyone, really.. are in when the story opens )

ETA: Lady Gwyn.. Beat me to it.. :D I started this off the top of my head before your post. Then my phone rang and eons, later, here I am..