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The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!


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What are you thinking is the significance of all this?

What was noteworthy to me about the battles he fought at the Wall is that fire was involved, but it's ice that sealed the victory-- the ice that threw off Styr's men, the frozen barrels that crushed the wildling war machines, etc. Also, I think fire tends to appear in every battle we've seen; I'm not sure it's more pronounced with Jon.

I am thinking about the theory that Jon is the Lightbringer. I gathered some interesting quotes here which looks like Jon's Fire and Blood will be important in the battle with the Others.

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I am thinking about the theory that Jon is the Lightbringer. I gathered some interesting quotes here which looks like Jon's Fire and Blood will be important in the battle with the Others.

oh ok, thanks for clarifying-- I wasn't sure how you were putting it together.

It's an interesting notion, but it might be a little speculative for here-- it presupposes a lot about the nature of Lightbringer (does it literally need to be forged again, can it refer to a person rather than a sword, etc). I think we can safely surmise that Jon will be incredibly important to the upcoming battle, but I'm not sure if labeling him in a particular role (especially one that would preclude his association with the old gods and the importance of ice) is profitable for now. The next 2 chapters will be significant turning points in terms of his identification with the old gods, so I'm a bit cautious about assertions wrt Lightbringer at present.

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Here's the next Jon chapter, but don't feel that the previous Sam discussion should end.

I was struck by Bran Vras's comparison of the Watch election to the Ironborn Kingsmoot. The Watch is an odd place politically in that many of the traditional things of importance in elections are absent or warped in a place like the Watch. By its nature no candidate for LC would ever be seen engaged in the stereotypical political baby kissing. The "future" is a different political thing in the Nights Watch. In US politics there is a popular phrase that "character matters" (not that you could tell from our politicians.) The Watch seems to be more of a "character matters" political place than a place of issues politics. I doubt investing in catapults over trebuchets has ever swayed an election.

I suspect that this is the first election for a LC in generations where there are actually issues to discuss. While those issues are never raised in the campaigning, they are raised on top of the Wall with Stannis and Jon which offers a nice segue into the next chapter.

Jon XI (SoS)

Summary

This is a short chapter. It opens with Jon instructing Satin in the use of sword and shield when Melisandre appears behind him with an escort of a dozen knights to summon Jon to meet the King. Jon meets with Stannis and Melisandre on top of the Wall and Stannis offers to make Jon the Lord of Winterfel with some strings named Val, Stannis, and R'hllor attached. Jon asks for time to consider the offer.

Observations

The trappings of power

  • “We shall await you atop the Wall,” said Melisandre.
  • she was standing behind him, with half a dozen queen’s men around her.
  • Last of all he collected Longclaw, and slung the bastard sword across his back.
  • He was dressed in the same black breeches, tunic, and boots that a brother of the Night’s Watch might wear. Only his cloak set him apart; a heavy golden cloak trimmed in black fur, and pinned with a brooch in the shape of a flaming heart.

Why does Stannis (or Mel) choose the top of the Wall to meet? Privacy? Theater? Symbolism? Jon picks the same spot to meet the Clan leaders in DwD and we get a bit more of his thoughts on why he chooses the Wall. Jon's meeting is for much the same reasons as Stannis discusses here only Jon's position is reversed later.

Stannis is in the blacks of the Watch. I don't see Stannis as the type to wear floppy ears to impress the rabbits, but the garb choice definitely has echoes of Dany. Perhaps like Tyrion back in GoT, his warmest clothes just weren't warm enough? I seem to recall in Dance that Jon provides warmer gloves for some of the Southern guards so it may just be a practical thing. As far as Jon's King symbolism is concerned the garb offers a nice contrast-- Stannis is garbed in the Blacks of the Watch with only the cloak to identify him while Jon is garbed in the same blacks with a hooded cloak that "masks" his identity.

Lords and Kings

Jon calls Stannis "your Grace" eight times.

She and the babe did not require much capturing, Your Grace. You had put the wildlings to flight, and the skinchanger Mance had left to guard his queen went mad when the eagle burned.”

on nodded, and turned back to the king. “Your Grace, you spoke of Val. She has asked to see Mance Rayder, to bring his son to him. It would be a… a kindness.”

“Tormund Giantsbane seemed to me the sort of man who would make a good friend and a bad enemy, Your Grace.”

“My sword is pledged to the Night’s Watch, Your Grace,” Jon Snow answered carefully.

Your Grace,” he said, “you forget. I am a Snow, not a Stark.”

Jon had come to that same realization. “As you say, Your Grace.” He wondered where this king was going.

Your Grace,” he said, “captive or no, if you think you can just give Val to me, I fear you have a deal to learn about wildling women.

Your Grace. Might I beg you for some time to consider?”

and calls him "My lord" once. Curious that Jon reverts to "My lord" when thinking of Robb and his kingship in the North.

“My sword is pledged to the Night’s Watch, Your Grace,” Jon Snow answered carefully.
That did not please the king. Stannis ground his teeth and said, “I need more than a sword from you.”
Jon was lost. “My lord?
“I need the north.”
The north. “I… my brother Robb was King in the North…”

Stannis also calls Jon a lord twice and Jon denies it both times

“Rise. I have heard much and more of you, Lord Snow.”
I am no lord, sire.” Jon rose. “I know what you have heard. That I am a turncloak, and craven.

“Words. Words are wind. Why do you think I abandoned Dragonstone and sailed to the Wall, Lord Snow?”
I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it.”

Mel is thought of as a true queen but the term seems strictly limited to the wielding of power rather than any quality inherent in being a queen.

There's a bit of a sexual overtone on Mel's behalf toward Jon.

The scent reminded him of Mikken’s forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. Kissed by fire, he thought, remembering Ygritte. The wind got in amongst Melisandre’s long red robes and sent them flapping against Jon’s legs as he stood beside her.

Later in DwD she will again remind him of Ygritte in what will seem to be an overt use of magic.

Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

When did Jon start figuring into Mel's fires? Would she have sufficient reason to start working her magic on him here?

The wind comes up a few times here. Osha tells Bran that the wind is the Old Gods speaking. The idea that the power of the Old Gods would take Jon off the Wall while Stannis is offering to use his power to take Jon off the Wall if he will forsake those gods makes for a nice contrast.

He would make me Lord of Winterfell. The wind was gusting, and Jon felt so light-headed he was half afraid it would blow him off the Wall.

This also plays into Jon's dream last chapter. We know from his earlier versions that Jon is in the crypts and the feast is above him. He tells Sam the "a wall" separates him from the voices of Robb and his father and here we see how the Wall separates him from Winterfell.

Analysis

While there are no specific developments into the Nights Watch politics of Sam's last chapter this is a fairly important development on that front all the same. This will also make Jon's becoming Lord Commander feel like more of a choice even though he technically declines the Stannis offer before the LC option becomes apparent to him (unless my memory is wrong on that detail.)

There is also a bit of a Robert/Ned and Stannis/Jon parallel here-- a Baratheon King comes North to offer an office to a "Stark." There's a lot to explore in that regard but I find Mel's line rather interesting when pondering this parallel:

What does His Grace want of me?” Jon asked her as they entered the cage.
All you have to give, Jon Snow. He is a king.”

Robert essentially took from Ned all that he had to give.

There is also Robb's will to consider. Stannis is offering Jon almost exactly what Robb wrote in his will. Stannis is insisting on fealty to Stannis, a marriage to Val, and giving up the Old Gods-- his father's gods that have become his own. I don't think the first two would have been much of a problem even if they came as conditions from Robb. The last one however will be the deal breaker. One aspect of this is identity. Religion speaks to core beliefs of the self and it is quite a lot to ask someone to surrender. Stannis and Jon agree here on letting the Wildlings through the Wall but this religious point is one of the key differences between the terms Stannis offers his captives and the terms Jon will offer Tormund. There is also the question of the Old Gods and power that Mel brings up.

A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes.

The Wall clearly has magical power and that magic is almost certainly tied to the Old Gods. There has been speculation, particularly in Apple Martini's Lightbringer is the Nights Watch thread, that the oath taken before a weirwood has power. Jon's objection is about honor and not about power which deprives us of a Stannis response that likely would have been about duty and some variation of the Halfhand's assessment of what honor is worth. It would have been enlightening to get that response from Stannis. This world view of honor vs. power is also a central theme. A number of Tyrion/Tywin conversations have this issue at their root. Mel here represents the Tywin perspective in that honor is a non-factor when power can settle the issue.

The scene also shows how apolitical Jon is at this time. Noye comes up as someone who would make a better Lord Commander than any of the current candidates and Jon has no thoughts on the election. He defends Pyke and Malister and even Yarwick but has no thoughts on any becoming Lord Commander. One of the effects of Sam's machinations is to bring Jon to power without having had to broker any deals or engage in any of the politicking that we see others do. Jon will arrive as Lord Commander without owing any subordinates or internal factions favors. Over the course of DwD he will engage in a good bit of politicking with outside factions yet even then almost all of it is reactionary. Like the office of LC he never seeks out external factions. This makes Jon very much a leader through circumstance and need rather than anything he has sought out or struggled on his own to acquire.

This lack of seeking power or birthright sets him apart from many other characters. Even Winterfell which he very much desires is subordinate to the love for his siblings. Jaime is similar in this regard despite being, or having been, heir. Tyrion and Cersei matter more than the Rock even though Cersei and Tyrion are consumed by it. The issue never arises with Jojen and Meera that we can see and the Mormont women also seem indifferent to succession compared to the importance of family. Theon and Asha are divided by it. Arianne's introduction was all about inheritance. Sam's presence at the Wall is the result of the inheritance matter. His dream indicates it still has some importance to him even if not in a power hungry way. With the marriage topic arising with Val we also have Brienne and Sansa who both seek familial love from a different angle over inheritance. In general we have honor vs. power and love vs. politics as undertones.

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Ragnorak ..I'm really struck by those parallels, and I often feel ,with GRRM's parallels , that the little differences make all the difference... E.G. I think , maybe, Dalla is more the equivalent of Elia, and Val is an important difference , an element missing from the earlier case.

I dont think there exists exact matches, rather some things are reversed or unified. I think it is more likely that Dalla is Lyanna and Val is Ashara. Ned's affection to Ashara fits with Jon's affection to Val. By the way, has anybody compared Ser Patrek of King's Mountain trying to scale Hardin's Tower with the Mountain scaling Maegor's Holdfast?

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Ragnorak


Lots to think about. I'll have to make a longer post later, but one thing from your post that leaps out at me , is your point about the use of "true Queen", because it adds to one of my obsessions :D , the questions around Val and Dalla , whom I've long seen as the Old Religion equivalent of Mel.


Briefly , I see them as inspired by the Vala in Norse culture/religion . They ( the Vala) often used magically induced visions ( especially visions locating things / people / places , etc.) to promote / support a strong leader or cheiftain , sometimes actually marrying him. It's just that with Val and Dalla , their "seeing" hasn't been fully revealed yet. There have been quite a few places where we can see it as being implied , though. ( Mance looking for the Horn of Joramun in the Frostfangs , Val's ease in finding Tormund ). I think this will come into play much more than their bloodlines though..and bears keeping in mind as we read ahead.

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...This is a short chapter. It opens with Jon instructing Satin in the use of sword and shield when Melisandre appears behind him with an escort of a dozen knights to summon Jon to meet the King. Jon meets with Stannis and Melisandre on top of the Wall and Stannis offers to make Jon the Lord of Winterfel with some strings named Val, Stannis, and R'hllor attached. Jon asks for time to consider the offer...

:thumbsup:

Something that popped into my mind here with the offer you can't refuse from Stannis was how it could be a parallel with the scene with Mance in Jon I ASOS. There was the offer of freedom (and free love) at the cost of turning cloak on his oath (to a weirwood), here is the offer of dominion and marriage at the cost of turning his back on his father's gods / his gods by burning the weirwood. I was reminded of the temptations that Jesus was offered by the Devil in the desert, but could only remember the offer of dominion, in anycase the repeated temptations - are there more seem interesting.

I like your drawing the parallel with Bob's offer to The Ned at the opening of AGOT, which was to only cost The Ned his life, cripple Bran, set off a chain of events that would see Catelyn and Robb dead, Arya and Sansa in unsafe places. I wonder if at that moment Jon recalled the dead Mama Direwolf with an antler in its throat?

The meeting on the wall is odd in that Stannis wants to keep it secret yet being summoned by Melisandre and a bunch of Queensmen, riding up with her in the lift to speak with Stannis on top of the wall is highly public. Given the amount of gossip there seems to be going around in Castle Black surely the fact of the meeting would have been no secret! It does seem theatrical as you say, a place that puts a certain perspective on the lay of the land?

Agree that personality or character must be the likely drivers of voting behaviour on the Wall. I can't see there being enough flexibility either in the oath or the resources available for policy issues to predominate: vote Mallister - tough on Wildlings, tough on the causes of Wildlings just doesn't seem very likely somehow!

ETA teh idea that oaths sworn by night's watchmen to Weirwoods have a special quality was also an early idea on the Heresy threads.

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Melissandre's view on the validity of oaths is quite telling. To her an oath isn't a statement of intent, a "verbal contract" of sorts. Without a real and existing deity to enforce it, it holds no weight for her. The Night's Watch itself insists on a vow before some deity, but they don't care which one. Nobody for example was concerned that Sam was trying to set up a loophole by swearing his vows in a religion that wasn't his own.

Which is pretty boneheaded politics. If Jon breaks his previous vows on the grounds that the Old Gods are false, there's nothing stopping him from changing religions disregarding any vows made to her or Stannis.

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The only thing that makes sense to me at this point is that Val or perhaps Dalla was a moon singer, only based on Val's singing for herself and monster can listen if he likes and that they get a show mention. The moon singer's also lead the slaves to Bravos according to the kindly man. Perhaps they are doing a similar function here and think Mance is/was their hope, but it's actually his influence on Jon?



Random note, but i think interesting about Stannis/Jon interactions in Storm. In Clash prologue the white raven's only words are to refer too Stannis as Lord and Shireen as Lady while Cressen is thinking how he is a king and she is a princess now. The white raven that comes to the wall is silent.


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I dont think there exists exact matches, rather some things are reversed or unified. I think it is more likely that Dalla is Lyanna and Val is Ashara. Ned's affection to Ashara fits with Jon's affection to Val. By the way, has anybody compared Ser Patrek of King's Mountain trying to scale Hardin's Tower with the Mountain scaling Maegor's Holdfast?

But that would be a completely different parallel than the one Ragnorak was making. He? was comparing Stannis/Baratheon treatment of Mance's queen and family to the Tywin/Lannister treatment of Rhaegar's, and equating Val with Elia . Val makes a difference in that she's not Mance's wife or lover, and Dalla has died in childbirth ( which was what was believed would happen to Elia if she tried to bear another child)..But the parallel , and difference in treatment may certainly exist in Stannis' mind , since he at first refers to Val as Mance's wife and the baby's mother ( in the current chapter).

Mmmm...I'm not very drawn to the Lyanna or "Mountain" comparison at this stage. , because Mance never says he stole Dalla , just that he met her on his return from his second trip to WF ( though outsiders might assume he "stole" her because of the known wildling practice ) ..not to mention that I suspect she sought him out , instead of the other way around.. As for Patrek of King's Mountain, he's a Queen's man, in any case , and Gregor the Mountain was not the King's man , but Tywin's... Although Robert no doubt wanted the victims dead, rape or the extreme brutality used would not be in his desired scenario... while Ser Patrek's / Selyse's desired end wouldn't include Val's or the Monster's death.. anyway , that will all come up later. ( and, for sure , more may be written to clarify )

Ser Pollo Loco.. one thing more and I'm off this, for now (before I'm branded a hijacker).. ;) I doubt Val and Dalla are Moonsingers, exactly , but I think it very likely that the Moonsingers evolved out of the beliefs and practices of wildling slaves in Valyria. The MS now have their own temple and religion ... and as far as we know, there's not a weirwood to be found in Braavos.

Very interesting about the white raven.

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Thank you Ragnorak. My notes on the chapter.


Turncloak, bastard, warg. Stannis seems to exonerate Jon of the three infamies on the basis of three arguments: Slynt is despicable, Jon’s father was honourable, the warg accusation is outrageous. Interesting how none of these reasons is compelling.


Stannis hasn’t met Val despite the plans he has for her. Much later Asha will take the measure of Stannis’ misogyny.


I feel that Stannis’ offer is not quite honorable and a perilous political gambit. Giving Winterfell to a bastard while trueborn daughters are alive, burning the heart tree, marrying the lord of Winterfell to a wildling instead of a northman’s daughter are all initiatives that shouldn’t earn Stannis much love in the north. Since all this is bound to remain theoretical, I won’t elaborate.


Is the power of the Wall really connected to the weirwoods? I don’t know. But I can’t help noticing that weirwoods are banned around the Wall, and perhaps in all the Gift (there is none at Queenscrown), except at the Nightfort, where a young tree has grown recently in what Bran recognizes as a kitchen. The tree is cut down at some point at ADwD. Why not keep a proper heart tree at Castle Black for the oaths? Is the Wall+Gift designed as a barrier against the weirwoods beyond?


On the other hand, Melisandre seems very at ease on the Wall. While I was contributing to the very early heresies, I recall having seen the sound suggestion that the vows of the Watch recall the credo of the red priests, which might point to a common origin. Why does Melisandre want to burn heart trees? It goes along the burning of the heart tree of Storm’s End, and the statues of the Seven at Dragonstone. Erasing all current religions of Westeros is not a realistic policy for Stannis.


Most interesting is Stannis’ insistence that Jon marries Val. I can’t see why Stannis would want a wildling lady to rule Winterfell. He does not need the wildlings, which will hardly count in the game of thrones. It seems to me that Stannis wants that wildling lady to rule Winterfell. Indeed, Val is neither willing nor pliable. Why not find another woman among the wildling captives? Could Stannis have learned something about Val from Mance? That brings us back to Dalla’s lineage.


@Lamprey@Winterfellian. I feel it is useful to gather what we know about Val and Dalla. We will learn more around Jon X, ADwD. Already with what we know as of ASoS, questions can be asked. The grand total of five sentences uttered by Dalla is enough to make apparent that her language is more polished than what we hear from Ygritte, Tormund, Rattleshirt, Craster etc. (Val will even use the social marker "my Lord" instead of the common "m’lord" in ADwD). Since Mance married Dalla recently, and since Dalla’s sister is at Mance’s side, one wonders where is the rest of their family, their clan etc. Moreover, Dalla is evidently privy to every council of Mance, even those from which Tormund is excluded. I can’t identify a single environment beyond the Wall from where Val and Dalla could come from (at least with what we know from ASoS).


That should be tied to other unknown elements of Mance’s realm. Osha told us about giants and children of the forest in AGoT/ACoK. We saw giants with Mance. But the wildlings met by Jon never mention the children of the forest. It is not a coincidence that the emblems of Mance as King are raven wings (on his elm) and elk antlers (on his tent). Ravens and elks are Coldhand’s animals, precisely the animals associated to the children of the forest by the folklore (green men that ride elks) and by Brynden (all ravens are inhabited by what he calls the singers). Hence the children of the forest seem to be heralded by Mance in his quality of king-beyond-the-Wall.


That opens the question of the relation of Mance to other powers beyond the Wall. What about the greenseers? How could the three-eyed-crow be indifferent to Mance?



@Lummel@Ragnorak You are both right that the Lord Commander has generally a narrowly defined task, which explains that he would rather be elected in function of his standing among his peers. This is why I mentioned the extraordinary current circumstances: 1) Stannis’ arrival and occupation, 2) the murder of Mormont, 3) the wildling assault, 4) the resurgence of the Others, 5) the war of the five kings and 6) the continuing decline of the Watch. Only 1) and 5) seem to have been an election issue.

The Kingsmoot and the choosing of the Commander are part of a larger comparison I have in mind. It seems to me that Euron’s kingship is a useful counterpart to understand Jon Snow’s tenure as Lord Commander. Whatever we think of these rulers, they will both prove to be revolutionary leaders. For a start, Euron will operate with a stronger mandate, in reason of his declared intentions prior to his election.



@Ser Pollo Loco. I fear I am the one who raised the possibility of the moonsinger relation long ago on these boards. Perhaps there is a distant cultural continuity to be explained with the wildling slaves of Valyria, as Bemused suggests. But that seems of little importance for current events, and I hardly see how Val and Dalla could have been to Braavos in any case.

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Thank you Ragnorak. My notes on the chapter.


Turncloak, bastard, warg. Stannis seems to exonerate Jon of the three infamies on the basis of three arguments: Slynt is despicable, Jon’s father was honourable, the warg accusation is outrageous. Interesting how none of these reasons is compelling.


Stannis hasn’t met Val despite the plans he has for her. Much later Asha will take the measure of Stannis’ misogyny.


I feel that Stannis’ offer is not quite honorable and a perilous political gambit. Giving Winterfell to a bastard while trueborn daughters are alive, burning the heart tree, marrying the lord of Winterfell to a wildling instead of a northman’s daughter are all initiatives that shouldn’t earn Stannis much love in the north. Since all this is bound to remain theoretical, I won’t elaborate.


Is the power of the Wall really connected to the weirwoods? I don’t know. But I can’t help noticing that weirwoods are banned around the Wall, and perhaps in all the Gift (there is none at Queenscrown), except at the Nightfort, where a young tree has grown recently in what Bran recognizes as a kitchen. The tree is cut down at some point at ADwD. Why not keep a proper heart tree at Castle Black for the oaths? Is the Wall+Gift designed as a barrier against the weirwoods beyond?


On the other hand, Melisandre seems very at ease on the Wall. While I was contributing to the very early heresies, I recall having seen the sound suggestion that the vows of the Watch recall the credo of the red priests, which might point to a common origin. Why does Melisandre want to burn heart trees? It goes along the burning of the heart tree of Storm’s End, and the statues of the Seven at Dragonstone. Erasing all current religions of Westeros is not a realistic policy for Stannis.


Most interesting is Stannis’ insistence that Jon marries Val. I can’t see why Stannis would want a wildling lady to rule Winterfell. He does not need the wildlings, which will hardly count in the game of thrones. It seems to me that Stannis wants that wildling lady to rule Winterfell. Indeed, Val is neither willing nor pliable. Why not find another woman among the wildling captives? Could Stannis have learned something about Val from Mance? That brings us back to Dalla’s lineage.


@Lamprey@Winterfellian. I feel it is useful to gather what we know about Val and Dalla. We will learn more around Jon X, ADwD. Already with what we know as of ASoS, questions can be asked. The grand total of five sentences uttered by Dalla is enough to make apparent that her language is more polished than what we hear from Ygritte, Tormund, Rattleshirt, Craster etc. (Val will even use the social marker "my Lord" instead of the common "m’lord" in ADwD). Since Mance married Dalla recently, and since Dalla’s sister is at Mance’s side, one wonders where is the rest of their family, their clan etc. Moreover, Dalla is evidently privy to every council of Mance, even those from which Tormund is excluded. I can’t identify a single environment beyond the Wall from where Val and Dalla could come from (at least with what we know from ASoS).


That should be tied to other unknown elements of Mance’s realm. Osha told us about giants and children of the forest in AGoT/ACoK. We saw giants with Mance. But the wildlings met by Jon never mention the children of the forest. It is not a coincidence that the emblems of Mance as King are raven wings (on his elm) and elk antlers (on his tent). Ravens and elks are Coldhand’s animals, precisely the animals associated to the children of the forest by the folklore (green men that ride elks) and by Brynden (all ravens are inhabited by what he calls the singers). Hence the children of the forest seem to be heralded by Mance in his quality of king-beyond-the-Wall.


That opens the question of the relation of Mance to other powers beyond the Wall. What about the greenseers? How could the three-eyed-crow be indifferent to Mance?



@Lummel@Ragnorak You are both right that the Lord Commander has generally a narrowly defined task, which explains that he would rather be elected in function of his standing among his peers. This is why I mentioned the extraordinary current circumstances: 1) Stannis’ arrival and occupation, 2) the murder of Mormont, 3) the wildling assault, 4) the resurgence of the Others, 5) the war of the five kings and 6) the continuing decline of the Watch. Only 1) and 5) seem to have been an election issue.

The Kingsmoot and the choosing of the Commander are part of a larger comparison I have in mind. It seems to me that Euron’s kingship is a useful counterpart to understand Jon Snow’s tenure as Lord Commander. Whatever we think of these rulers, they will both prove to be revolutionary leaders. For a start, Euron will operate with a stronger mandate, in reason of his declared intentions prior to his election.



@Ser Pollo Loco. I fear I am the one who raised the possibility of the moonsinger relation long ago on these boards. Perhaps there is a distant cultural continuity to be explained with the wildling slaves of Valyria, as Bemused suggests. But that seems of little importance for current events, and I hardly see how Val and Dalla could have been to Braavos in any case.





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Samwell's mother Melessa Florent is the daughter of Alester Florent and Melara Crane.

That makes Alester Florent Sam's maternal grandfather, Ser Axell Florent his great uncle, Queen Selyse his first cousin once removed and Shireen Baratheon his second cousin.

For some reason he never thinks of any of this even when some of those people are at the Wall.

And this isn't relevant to the Jon re-read, but when Brightwater Keep was given to Garlan Tyrell, it was [insult || provocation || injustice] to Randyll Tarly as with Alester and his son Alekyne attainted, Brightwater Keep should have passed to Melessa Tarly.

Thanks for pointing out that Lord Florent was Sam's grandfather.

I suppose that once a lord has been attainted, his lands revert to his overlord, who can dispose of them as he wishes. But, it does seem a bit of a slap in the face to

Lord Tarly, who does a lot of heavy lifting on behalf of the Tyrells.

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I feel it is useful to gather what we know about Val and Dalla. We will learn more around Jon X, ADwD. Already with what we know as of ASoS, questions can be asked. The grand total of five sentences uttered by Dalla is enough to make apparent that her language is more polished than what we hear from Ygritte, Tormund, Rattleshirt, Craster etc. (Val will even use the social marker "my Lord" instead of the common "m’lord" in ADwD). Since Mance married Dalla recently, and since Dalla’s sister is at Mance’s side, one wonders where is the rest of their family, their clan etc. Moreover, Dalla is evidently privy to every council of Mance, even those from which Tormund is excluded. I can’t identify a single environment beyond the Wall from where Val and Dalla could come from (at least with what we know from ASoS).

I made a thread about Mel's intentions with Jon and it appears that she is only interested in making shadow babies with Jon. Next I was exploring Val's intentions with Jon.

“This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.”

“I am no man’s pet,” said Jarl, dark and fierce.

“And Val’s no man,” white-bearded Tormund snorted. “You ought to have noticed that by now, lad.”

This was the first time Jon met Val. She had a pet named Jarl back then. He was a dark haired, brave and young raider, the exact type which Ygritte was trying to mold Jon into. I cant resist to add "you know nothing Jarl" to Tormund's words. Val didnot give much attention to Jon back then, and neither Jon to her. Val is described several times grey eyed before. Ygritte's eyes were grey-blue.

Mance sent Jarl with Magnar to scale the Wall and gave him the command, which certainly displeased the Magnar. Jarl declared the first team to go up will get castle forged steel swords from Mance, which are extremely valuable gifts for wildlings. Jon recalls Jarl:

Mance Rayder had called the dark youth a “pet” of Val, who was sister to Dalla, his own queen, which made Jarl a sort of good brother once removed to the King-beyond-the-Wall.

The following quote is interesting. Magnar calls Jarl as "Mance's pet":

By the sixth hour, Jarl had moved ahead of Grigg the Goat again, and his men were widening the gap. “The Mance’s pet must want a sword,”

It is necessary to refer to some future chapters slightly.

Asha is king's prize. Even one of her POVs is named like that. Similarly, Val is also the king's prize. She is locked in a tower, all the hope of freedom left her. She will see Mance burning (it is unknown whether she was able to see past Mel's glamor). Stannis obviously considers her as a valuable prize for the most deserving and helpful servant of his.

Val begged for Mance's life, even she said she would be willing to marry a kneeler and not slit his throat. So Val is waiting to be stolen by a worthy man and Jon gives her freedom, sends her to find Tormund. Val's playful tone when speaking to Jon starts while departing and continues on. So did Jon steal Val from Stannis?

Interestingly, just after sending Val, Jon breaks his fast in his chamber and Mormont's raven steals his bacon. Jon calls him "Thief" to which the raven replies "Thief". We dont know whether the Thief was shining in the sky at that time but it may show that Jon actually did steal Val.

Remember Tormund made it plain to Jon that Ygritte was obviously desiring Jon while he was avoiding the intercourse. There was a long dialogue about this. After the return of Val, Tormund interestingly brings up the subject of stealing Val and urges Jon to do it quickly. Val is playful as ever there. And her eyes turned blue like hell.

I dont want to sound nasty but please follow me for a while. Dalla's advice to Jon (which Val brought up again before leaving) was that sorcery is a sword without a hilt and there is no way to grasp it safely. We know that Mel wants to grasp Jon's sword (which has no hilt) for her sorcerous intentions. Did Dalla and Val foresee a succubus (Mel) to haunt Jon?

ETA:

"You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise."

“Dalla told me something once. Val’s sister, Mance Rayder’s wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

A wise woman.” Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind.

Melisandre from Asshai should be well aware of what maegi really means. Did she reveal that Dalla was indeed a maegi?

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Melissandre's view on the validity of oaths is quite telling. To her an oath isn't a statement of intent, a "verbal contract" of sorts. Without a real and existing deity to enforce it, it holds no weight for her. The Night's Watch itself insists on a vow before some deity, but they don't care which one. Nobody for example was concerned that Sam was trying to set up a loophole by swearing his vows in a religion that wasn't his own.

Which is pretty boneheaded politics. If Jon breaks his previous vows on the grounds that the Old Gods are false, there's nothing stopping him from changing religions disregarding any vows made to her or Stannis.

Well I suppose from Melisandre's POV Rh'llor would enforce all contracts and oaths made in his (? her? its?) name, but it does show how theocratic her world view is. There doesn't exist for her anything meaningful outside faith in R'hllor and complete submission to the will of that god.

The only thing that makes sense to me at this point is that Val or perhaps Dalla was a moon singer, only based on Val's singing for herself and monster can listen if he likes and that they get a show mention. The moon singer's also lead the slaves to Bravos according to the kindly man. Perhaps they are doing a similar function here and think Mance is/was their hope, but it's actually his influence on Jon?

Random note, but i think interesting about Stannis/Jon interactions in Storm. In Clash prologue the white raven's only words are to refer too Stannis as Lord and Shireen as Lady while Cressen is thinking how he is a king and she is a princess now. The white raven that comes to the wall is silent.

When do we see the White Raven at the Wall? Isn't that still to come?

I think Moonsinger speculation has been effectively quashed by GRRM in an interview he gave in Spain over a year ago:

Question: Could you give us any information concerning the moonsingers that were key to the founding of Braavos?

GRRM answer: (background and history of Braavos and Moonsingers)...They were very important in the founding and early history of Braavos, but they still exist to this day. Beyond that, I don't expect they'll have much importance to the present story.

You could, if you are keen, focus on the "much" but it looks at present like a dead end, particularly since they are explicitly linked to Braavos and only to Braavos.

...By the way, has anybody compared Ser Patrek of King's Mountain trying to scale Hardin's Tower with the Mountain scaling Maegor's Holdfast?

I don't think it comes to anything significant. Gregor has Mountain as a nickname, Ser Patrek has mountain as part of his toponym. Gregor probably walked up some stairs, Patrek only intended to do so. Gregor wanted to kill, Patrek to get married. :dunno:

...Most interesting is Stannis’ insistence that Jon marries Val. I can’t see why Stannis would want a wildling lady to rule Winterfell. He does not need the wildlings, which will hardly count in the game of thrones. It seems to me that Stannis wants that wildling lady to rule Winterfell. Indeed, Val is neither willing nor pliable. Why not find another woman among the wildling captives? Could Stannis have learned something about Val from Mance? That brings us back to Dalla’s lineage.
@Lamprey@Winterfellian. I feel it is useful to gather what we know about Val and Dalla. We will learn more around Jon X, ADwD. Already with what we know as of ASoS, questions can be asked. The grand total of five sentences uttered by Dalla is enough to make apparent that her language is more polished than what we hear from Ygritte, Tormund, Rattleshirt, Craster etc. (Val will even use the social marker "my Lord" instead of the common "m’lord" in ADwD). Since Mance married Dalla recently, and since Dalla’s sister is at Mance’s side, one wonders where is the rest of their family, their clan etc. Moreover, Dalla is evidently privy to every council of Mance, even those from which Tormund is excluded. I can’t identify a single environment beyond the Wall from where Val and Dalla could come from (at least with what we know from ASoS)...

Stannis seems pretty clear about why Jon should marry Val: "the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess". I don't see any mystery here - he is simply applying the political and marital norms he is familiar with and applying them to the wildlings, not understand ho different things are north of the wall. He imagines marrying Jon to Val will have the same effect as his marriage with Selyse has in winning him some support from the Florents. This is in the context of having decided that he will let the Wildling through the Wall. Whether to fight for the Iron Throne or against the Others the Wildlings are at least manpower which Stannis is desperately short of.

What we know about Dalla and Val at this stage is that they don't make a lot of sense, although this could simply be because we don't know much about life beyond the wall. The mentions of clan mothers and the red silk given to the wise woman could be taken as hints that even as there are Thenns and Tormunds the variety of women there is wider than simply Gilly and Ygritte. Val is somebody who emerges a little more in ADWD.

Thanks for pointing out that Lord Florent was Sam's grandfather.

I suppose that once a lord has been attainted, his lands revert to his overlord, who can dispose of them as he wishes. But, it does seem a bit of a slap in the face to

Lord Tarly, who does a lot of heavy lifting on behalf of the Tyrells.

If Sam's absence of thought about this isn't just from ignorance but shows instead the extent of his divorce from his family then it is very telling. We'll be continuing Sam as a spin off reread once Jon and Sam split in AFFC so we won't lose sight of him.

...It is necessary to refer to some future chapters slightly...

You are getting way ahead of us! But the danger of grasping Lord Snow's sword is duly noted :laugh:

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Nice job, Rag.

why the top of the Wall?

I think there’s two practical reasons for this meeting place. It allows for secrecy of the words exchanged, though the fact that Jon and Stannis are meeting is public knowledge. As a second point, Stannis is trying to impress the need for alliances upon Jon, especially in terms of making common cause with the wildlings; the killing field that bled them both beforehand is thusly visible as evidence why joining powers is critical.

More symbolically, I think it bears the same significance that led Jon to meet here late in DwD—The Wall is the major hinge point separating Watch, wildlings and the North, and both Jon and Stannis make appeals to revise the border, putting all men on one side, Others on the other. The notion of total unification will be more prominent in Jon’s later speech, but the symbolic redrawing of the boundary applies here as well.

is Jon unintentionally canvassing votes?

I don’t mean literally, as Jon’s name doesn’t come up as a candidate until Sam V. I’m speaking more to the significance of stepping in to train men. At the beginning of aGoT, most of the Watch dislikes Jon tremendously, as he was a bit of an elitist jerk to the boys. After Donal’s chastening, he atones by offering lessons in swordplay, leveling the playing field. This serves to win over the majority of boys so well, that by the time Sam shows up (in basically the next chapter), he has enough influence to step in on Sam’s behalf. We know Jon isn’t thinking in these terms, and his practice sessions are largely about relieving personal angst, but it is an activity that made others love him in the past.

true queens

Rag, in Jon X you made some observations about “true queens,” after Mance refers to Dalla as one in relation to her wisdom. We have a repetition of “true queen” here, in Jon’s observation of Mel’s role to Stannis. Had anything struck you here, as a continuation of the construction of a “true queen?”

a task for every tool

There are some pretty serious allegations against Jon:

“I know what you have heard. That I am a turncloak, and craven. That I slew my brother Qhorin Halfhand so the wildlings would spare my life. That I rode with Mance Rayder, and took a wildling wife.”

“Aye. All that, and more. You are a warg too, they say, a skinchanger who walks at night as a wolf.” King Stannis had a hard smile. “How much of it is true?”

“I had a direwolf, Ghost. I left him when I climbed the Wall near Greyguard, and have not seen him since. Qhorin Halfhand commanded me to join the wildlings. He knew they would make me kill him to prove myself, and told me to do whatever they asked of me. The woman was named Ygritte. I broke my vows with her, but I swear to you on my father’s name that I never turned my cloak.”

and Stannis seemingly shrugs them off rather cavalierly:

Stannis snorted. “I know Janos Slynt. And I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty. You have his look.” A big man, Stannis Baratheon towered over Jon, but he was so gaunt that he looked ten years older than he was. “I know more than you might think, Jon Snow. I know it was you who found the dragonglass dagger that Randyll Tarly’s son used to slay the Other.”

Jon’s clearly resigned to being reprimanded by Stannis (and the Watch at large), believing that everyone will just assume the worst. But the reason Stannis gives for believing him—that Ned was an honorable man and that Jon looks like him—is pretty ridiculous. I can understand Stannis’ distrust of Slynt’s accusations given past behavior, but the appeal to Ned’s honor as a means of exonerating Jon is pretty absurd. Especially in light of a later paragraph where Stannis speaks to Jon’s having less honor than Ned due to his being a bastard.

I don’t think Stannis is being foolish, though. I think he made that lame appeal initially to mask the fact that he simply needs to use Jon as his tool, and thought appealing to Ned would butter him up. Stannis becomes increasingly more transparent in his desire to give Jon Winterfell, appealing to the Tywin school of “a tool for every task, a task for every tool:”

But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you.

Which means that Stannis doesn’t care whether the allegations against Jon were true or not; Stannis sees Jon as extremely useful for his own purposes, and this utility has overridden any concern about decorum. He brings up Mance in passing, another “turncloak,” and mentions he’ll be good for the fires once his utility is gone. The leap to turning a similar fate on Jon—declaring him a turncloak when the utility is expended—is not a large one. Though Jon doesn’t seem to make that connection, the divergent fates of the two turncloaks, which I believe is based primarily on the utility they can provide, is certainly present.

The main point I take from this is that Jon’s crimes are somewhat beside the point for Stannis; Stannis believes Jon because it’s in Stannis’ best interest to believe Jon, as he’s got a critical task in mind for him. I don’t think that’s necessarily a criticism against Stannis; the task in mind pertains to rallying against the Long Night, so there’s that to consider as well.

Stannis’ art of seduction

I would, however, criticize Stannis’ art of seduction, though, in fairness, he doesn’t know Jon the way we do, and his errors in persuasion are largely a function of not understanding this boy he’s never met.

Basically, Stannis projects his own relationship with his brother, the bastard stereotype, the assumption that any man would take any beautiful woman, and the customs of the realm onto Jon and the wildlings (all reasonably fair assumptions). The problem, though, is that in doing so, Stannis isn’t speaking to his actual target audience, and his offer is delivered in a way that’s counterproductive. In fact, I wonder if Stannis would have had better success had he started by addressing the Long Night initially.

Stannis begins with that lame appeal to Ned’s honor as rationale for believing him. They get sidetracked by debating a few cultural differences, and then Stannis announces the revelation about his destiny: he was meant to fight the Others. He goes on to tell Jon that he needs to take Winterfell for the following reason:

“Tywin Lannister has named Roose Bolton his Warden of the North, to reward him for betraying your brother. The ironmen are fighting amongst themselves since Balon Greyjoy’s death, yet they still hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, and most of the Stony Shore. Your father’s lands are bleeding, and I have neither the strength nor the time to stanch the wounds. What is needed is a Lord of Winterfell. A loyal Lord of Winterfell.”

He goes on to say that he knows the Northmen will not follow him automatically, but that he’ll need their swords in the upcoming battle. Stannis is appealing to the idea that the North is full of infighting, weakening itself, but will need to stand together in order to face the Others.

Jon balks at taking Winterfell as a bastard, and then balks at the thought of burning weirwoods. He’s plagued by the fact that he had wanted Winterfell despite the fact it would require his entire family to die in order to get it. The condition that makes this a dealbreaker is the fact that he’d have to burn his father’s gods, however.

Stannis goes on to become more direct in his goal to use Jon as his minion for the sake of the big picture. He appeals to the need to end cultural division by allowing the wildlings to enter peacefully as allies, and plans to do so by forcing them to swear fealty to him, convert, and arrange a political marriage with Val.

I think Stannis misjudged a good deal about both Jon and the wildlings here, and wonder if he’d have approach it in a different order, whether this might have made an impact on Jon’s decision.

What if Stannis started this with an appeal to the foe common to Watch, realm and wildling at the outset? What if he started with the “cart before the horse” speech, went on to speak of the need to unify wildling and North in service to fighting the Long Night, and then made his pitch to Jon? I wonder if Jon would have seen this differently, and may have had more of an opportunity to negotiate, i.e. “if you’re true concern is unifying against this threat, then creating barriers to this unity, such as forced conversion goes against this premise,” and so forth. I’m extremely conflicted about whether rejecting Stannis’ offer was the wisest course (I believe it was with the stated conditions, but I wonder if there’s some broader sense in what Stannis proposed in terms of a figurehead to lead these factions).

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That is a very interesting reading of Stannis Butterbumps, but I suspect that the religious change is non-negotiable for Stannis, R'hllorism seems to be a basic part of how Stannis and Melisandre see the realm as being saved. But this is something that comes up with more detail in the next chapter. I thought on the subject of Stannis that this chapter was interesting first in the requirement that Jon has to "burn these weirwoods" - I'm not sure if weirwoods in general are implied or the specific ones he swore an oath to. I've seen some posters point out that since Melisandre rather than Stannis says this that Stannis can be exonerated here, yet he doesn't interject to qualify what Melisandre says, the implication seems clear to me that what Melisandre says goes here, particularly as he says that he will require the wildlings to "take the lord of light as their god" as a condition of letting them through the Wall. It is also said from time to time that Stannis is an atheist yet here he does say "Had the God seen fit to spare him", a reference to R'hllor. My sense of it is that Stannis has a literal or contractual understanding of religion. He's not a man of faith as such, but their is an exchange of promises between himself and R'hllor. Since R'hllor has proved himself (in Stannis' view) to be active on his behalf then Stannis will act in accordance with what he believes to be R'hllor's will. The flip side of this is as Julian was saying above the attitude of Stannis and Melisandre endangers all existing contracts and oaths as well as risking alienating people whose support they need.



I also thought that the way in which Stannis discusses family with Jon was revealing. A parallel I thought with the talk with Tyrion in Tyrion II AGOT. Both the Lannister and the Baratheon apply their understanding of their own, highly specific, family dynamics to their mental model of the Stark family dynamic. Both hit absolutely the wrong note. "Your brother was a rebel and a traitor", ah that kind of blunt, direct talk will really win Jon's heart :laugh: only of course to be followed by "I loved my brother"..."And I mine" yet there is a world between how those two men understand and use the word love.



Something we haven't seen for a while with Jon - animal language. This chapter opens with him prowling around Satin. Now we see a man, then a beast.




ETA going back a bit - have a look at this website for pictures of Kazakhs hunting with eagles to give you an idea of Orell the Eagle


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oh, you're right Lum. I agree that the burning of the Winterfell godswood and forced conversion was a foregone conclusion, and that with the godswood stipulation in particular, Jon's mind likely wouldn't change.



I may have expressed this poorly, but I was thinking more about a missed connection between Jon and Stannis than necessarily something that would have changed the immediate outcome. Perhaps you could say I'm a little disappointed by the way both are thinking about this.



So, both Jon and Stannis are at this point abundantly aware of the Long Night. Both have reached the conclusion that factions must be unified, and at least in the case of the wildlings, they both believe uniting behind the Wall is the right thing to do (Jon thinks on how he came to the same conclusion about the wildlings when Stannis finally announces it). We also know Jon's aware of the broken condition of the North (though not necessarily in detail), and Stannis speaks to the importance of rallying behind a strong Northern leader for the sake of the larger fight. These are pretty important topics here, right? The issues that, perhaps, should be front and center?



Without knowing Jon, Stannis seems to anticipate that Jon will be moved by baser desires. I think he expected a much easier sell based on the belief that bastards would jump on the chance to be legitimized and able to inherit, and hadn't counted on the fact that bringing up the inheritance would open Jon's grief about Robb. Leaving the burning condition aside for a moment, I'm saying that Stannis somewhat obfuscates the larger picture at first, counting on Jon to agree for more or less selfish reasons, which Jon balks at, in part due to grief.



Granted the way Stannis sells this is not conducive to seeing the whole picture, Jon doesn't think in terms of the larger picture either about this. A massive coalition of united forces to combat the Long Night is not what he's thinking about. It's the personal grief and the hang up about the godswood that preoccupies him.



Stannis' pitch was not delivered in a way that catered to his audience (which is understandable, as he doesn't know Jon), and basically served to open Jon's grief, which led to a somewhat solipsistic reaction. The general aim of Stannis-- to unite all factions against the Others-- is correct, and is what they should have been talking about, even if the particulars of his plan and delivery were flawed.



So I guess what I'm saying is that they were talking/ thinking at cross purposes. It was a missed opportunity to have a frank discussion about the impending apocalypse and how to deal with it in broad strokes, that imploded in part due to Stannis' jumping the gun in terms of offering Winterfell (not to mention burning the damn godswood). I'm disappointed in a way that Jon never thinks about the bigger picture in his decision making-- it's about whether he feels right taking this in light of his grief and birth status, and then about the godswood. I don't begrudge him his grief or think he came to the wrong decision wrt what Stannis pitched, but I wish his thoughts weighed that grief against the larger picture.

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a task for every tool

There are some pretty serious allegations against Jon:

“I know what you have heard. That I am a turncloak, and craven. That I slew my brother Qhorin Halfhand so the wildlings would spare my life. That I rode with Mance Rayder, and took a wildling wife.”

“Aye. All that, and more. You are a warg too, they say, a skinchanger who walks at night as a wolf.” King Stannis had a hard smile. “How much of it is true?”

“I had a direwolf, Ghost. I left him when I climbed the Wall near Greyguard, and have not seen him since. Qhorin Halfhand commanded me to join the wildlings. He knew they would make me kill him to prove myself, and told me to do whatever they asked of me. The woman was named Ygritte. I broke my vows with her, but I swear to you on my father’s name that I never turned my cloak.”

and Stannis seemingly shrugs them off rather cavalierly:

Stannis snorted. “I know Janos Slynt. And I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty. You have his look.” A big man, Stannis Baratheon towered over Jon, but he was so gaunt that he looked ten years older than he was. “I know more than you might think, Jon Snow. I know it was you who found the dragonglass dagger that Randyll Tarly’s son used to slay the Other.”

Jon’s clearly resigned to being reprimanded by Stannis (and the Watch at large), believing that everyone will just assume the worst. But the reason Stannis gives for believing him—that Ned was an honorable man and that Jon looks like him—is pretty ridiculous. I can understand Stannis’ distrust of Slynt’s accusations given past behavior, but the appeal to Ned’s honor as a means of exonerating Jon is pretty absurd. Especially in light of a later paragraph where Stannis speaks to Jon’s having less honor than Ned due to his being a bastard.

I don’t think Stannis is being foolish, though. I think he made that lame appeal initially to mask the fact that he simply needs to use Jon as his tool, and thought appealing to Ned would butter him up. Stannis becomes increasingly more transparent in his desire to give Jon Winterfell, appealing to the Tywin school of “a tool for every task, a task for every tool:”

But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you.

Which means that Stannis doesn’t care whether the allegations against Jon were true or not; Stannis sees Jon as extremely useful for his own purposes, and this utility has overridden any concern about decorum. He brings up Mance in passing, another “turncloak,” and mentions he’ll be good for the fires once his utility is gone. The leap to turning a similar fate on Jon—declaring him a turncloak when the utility is expended—is not a large one. Though Jon doesn’t seem to make that connection, the divergent fates of the two turncloaks, which I believe is based primarily on the utility they can provide, is certainly present.

The main point I take from this is that Jon’s crimes are somewhat beside the point for Stannis; Stannis believes Jon because it’s in Stannis’ best interest to believe Jon, as he’s got a critical task in mind for him. I don’t think that’s necessarily a criticism against Stannis; the task in mind pertains to rallying against the Long Night, so there’s that to consider as well.

...

I might be giving Stannis more credit than he is due, but I don't think he would use Jon anyway. I am certain that, before meeting Jon, Stannis had gathered all the info about the events at the Wall prior to his arrival.

Stannis would be positively predisposed towards Jon for the reasons he gives as to why he believes him (the lack of credibility of the accuser, the quality of the man who raised him, plus maybe Donal Noye and Aemon's opinions) but for his final verdict and decision, this meeting on the Wall was absolutely nessecary, IMO. Melissandre is also present there. In Davos III, she claims that she can tell when someone lies (and I believe that she does have that skill). So Stannis would know if Jon tells the truth or no.

The true reason that Stannis invokes Jon's father and their resemblance would be, I think, to put Jon at ease so that he can pass on to the real test: the questions for the good things he's heard about him. Jon's answers there are what seal the deal for Stannis, I believe. It's noticeable that he doesn't offer Winterfell before. Had Jon claimed the honor of capturing Val and the baby or holding the gate instead of crediting Noye, I'm not sure if Stannis would have proceeded. The whole conversation before the offer is actually made, seems very much like an evaluation procedure to me.

------------

Stannis on Mance:

“Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder.” He ground his teeth. “A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames.

It seems that Stannis had considered to spare Mance, provided that he'd agree to his terms, bend the knee etc. "The law is the law", but not always... Another instance where Stannis is more flexible than people around him think.

-----------

This chapter is mostly about temptation. A promise to get his secret and "guilty" wish, in exchange for his vows.

Three times Jon has faced temptation that he associates with oathbreaking and treason, and I think there is a strong parallel with Daenerys' three treasons:

Once for blood: when he attempts to leave the Watch and join Robb marching south for Ned

Once for gold: this one. Personal gain, metaphorically. Winterfell, a name, a lordship, a beautiful woman...

Once for love: that led to his "death".

Only, he's the one to potentially commit the act of "treason" - it's all about choices, nothing set in stone...

I wonder if there are more "threes" in Dany's HotU prophecy that could also apply to Jon.

edited for typos

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is Jon unintentionally canvassing votes?

I don’t mean literally, as Jon’s name doesn’t come up as a candidate until Sam V. I’m speaking more to the significance of stepping in to train men. At the beginning of aGoT, most of the Watch dislikes Jon tremendously, as he was a bit of an elitist jerk to the boys. After Donal’s chastening, he atones by offering lessons in swordplay, leveling the playing field. This serves to win over the majority of boys so well, that by the time Sam shows up (in basically the next chapter), he has enough influence to step in on Sam’s behalf. We know Jon isn’t thinking in these terms, and his practice sessions are largely about relieving personal angst, but it is an activity that made others love him in the past.

While most of his training "class" disliked him I don't think that can be said of the Watch. I doubt they actually paid much attention to him before he took his vows (or before the builder/ranger/steward assignments were discussed anyway). There were exceptions of course, Donal Noye pays attention to the new recruits, we've seen that in ASoS. But Mormont barely knew who Tyrion was talking about when he mentioned Jon. And while his position as LC's steward might have been advised by Aemon, I frankly think he only got it because of his birth.

If anyone here has read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet, there's a very similar situation of a dark horse candidate getting elected without trying unduly hard. I certainly think that his particular group of trainees voted for him because of his attitude adjustment during training, but the majority of the Watch voted for him because of Mormont's raven. They certainly believed there was some supernatural mandate for him (and they very well might have been right). But by then, his escapades with the Wildlings, along with his status as Mormont's choice for successor (via the raven, the sword and his initial appointment as steward to the LC) would have been a much bigger factor than his behavior during his training.

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I think Stannis misjudged a good deal about both Jon and the wildlings here, and wonder if he’d have approach it in a different order, whether this might have made an impact on Jon’s decision.

I would go as far as saying that Stannis' offer does not make political sense. Allocating Winterfell to an apostate bastard and his wildling consort would antagonize the north, or so it seems after ADwD. Has Stannis any idea of the politics of the north at this point? Melisandre's influence and manichean views are possibly to blame. It's interesting to consider that she is behind Stannis' proposal, as the scene in the winch cage clearly suggests that Melisandre has already her eyes on Jon Snow.

Compare this to the war council in Jon IV, ADwD, where Stannis will listen to Jon's forceful advice for gaining the north: don't give lordships to wildlings, keep Melisandre away from the heart trees.

It's seemingly a contradiction that Jon's strategic lucidity of the latter chapter does not appear when Stannis makes his offer at the top of the Wall.

Stannis seems pretty clear about why Jon should marry Val: "the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess". I don't see any mystery here - he is simply applying the political and marital norms he is familiar with and applying them to the wildlings, not understand ho different things are north of the wall. He imagines marrying Jon to Val will have the same effect as his marriage with Selyse has in winning him some support from the Florents. This is in the context of having decided that he will let the Wildling through the Wall. Whether to fight for the Iron Throne or against the Others the Wildlings are at least manpower which Stannis is desperately short of.

I understand your point. But still...

At the very least, Stannis stretches the rules. Titles of royalty don’t normally pass to the family of the queen and none should be more determined about this than Stannis (see Cersei Lannister). No one can question the decision of a king, but, as a just man, Stannis would have to base the promotion to a lordship on blood or on merit (see Davos’ lordship). But Val has no particular merit and is, a priori, just the sister of the wife of a defeated king-beyond-the-Wall. Since she is not recognized as a princess by the free folk, of what use is she to Stannis? Either Stannis has grasped something that we haven't or he is again misguided.

A few incursions into ADwD would be helpful for this discussion of Val. So I fear we have to adjourn.
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