The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[butterbumps!]

Sam V

overview

Ten days of voting have passed. Stannis and Mel meet with the 6 remaining LC contenders, Bowen and Aemon, accompanied by Sam. Feeling stymied by the indecision, Stannis tries to put pressure on the contenders to come to a decision quickly. Stannis appeals to the fact that they are fighting the same war, and explains that he needs resources from the Watch (castles, the Gift) in order to move forward with his plan. He warns them that he’d prefer to take these resources with the LC’s approval, but if they fail to choose an LC efficiently, he will seize what he needs. After dismissing the contenders, Stannis asks Sam about the slain Other, and Aemon inquires about Lightbringer, resulting in a demonstration.

Deeply concerned for the future of the Watch, Sam pleads with Aemon to intervene in some way. Aemon says that it’s not his place, leading Sam to play politics. He goes to Cotter Pyke first, asking him to withdraw in favor of Denys Mallister; Pyke refuses. He then goes to Mallister, lies that Stannis threatened to choose the LC himself, and suggests Jon as an alternate to Pyke. Mallister is moderately amenable, so Sam returns to Pyke, armed with the same lie, to suggest Jon as an alternate.

observations

• Bowen has withdrawn but is in attendance anyway; the remaining contenders are Slynt, Mallister, Pyke, Othell Yarwyck, Hobb and Edd.
• Sam notes that it’s Mel who’s interested in Bowen’s/ Sam's presence, and it’s Mel who’s been reporting to Stannis about the state of indecision in the election
• Stannis’ unintentional humor abounds:

“Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?”

“Any of you, I would think. Even the cook.”

analysis

I. meeting with Stannis

The purpose of this meeting is to incentivize the Watchmen to come to a decision on LC more swiftly. It’s essentially a chastening: Stannis is “angry,” he purposely keeps the Watchmen on their knees for an egregious length of time, and Mel is noted as being “amused” by the whole thing. The atmosphere is strained and silent. During this unpleasantness, Sam is made uncomfortable by Mel’s gaze, but his train of thought moves to confusion over why she’s interested in Bowen, given that he’s withdrawn. I’m curious about this as well; one guess is that Mel (incorrectly) sees Bowen as a man of influence in the Watch. The truth of this is debatable, and might explain Sam’s surprise, since he doesn’t see Bowen as a particularly influential figure. Another guess is that Mel might have made Bowen a sort of patsy; Mel’s the one who’s been reporting on the Watch to Stannis, so she’s getting this info from somewhere, and Bowen might be her inside man. It seems noteworthy that a subtle Mel-Bowen connection has been planted.

(ETA: as per some comments about the interest in Bowen, I want to add that I originally read Sam's surprise as referring to Sam's presence; when doing the chapter and seeing Mel's the one who's been reporting, it occurred to me the "him" might refer to Bowen, so that's what I commented on. I'm not wed to that interpretation-- I'd always read the referent as Sam)

Slynt breaks the silence first with some poorly calculated brown-nosing. Stannis wants none of it, and reveals displeasure over the election stalemate. He explains that a decision must be made, as there’s work he needs to do that will impact the Watch, and it’s best done with an LC at his side:

“Nine days too long. I have captives to dispose of, a realm to order, a war to fight. Choices must be made, decisions that involve the Wall and the Night’s Watch. By rights your Lord Commander should have a voice in those decisions.”

Slynt responds by basically imploring Stannis to choose for them, with a not-so-subtle suggestion to back him. The brothers voice their outrage over the suggestion, Pyke with crassness, Mallister genteel, and Aemon as the peacemaker, all saying the same thing: the LC is the choice of the Watch alone. With gritted teeth, Stannis assures them he won’t tamper with their tradition, and launches into a character assassination of Slynt.

Stannis’ Slynt tirade goes on for a while, and it might be worthwhile to think about its purpose. I tend to think that this passage tells a lot about Stannis, not necessarily Slynt (we’ve known he’s as corrupt as they come from the beginning of Clash). Basically, Stannis had proof of Slynt’s simony practice in KL, and calls him out for corruption and tampering with evidence (the mysterious deaths of the two witnesses). This whole passage is a large tangent from the issues at hand, and strikes me as a massive chip on Stannis’ shoulder that he never had a chance to properly punish Slynt for his crimes. Robert basically endorsed Slynt’s crimes:

‘They all steal,’ I recall him saying. ‘Better a thief we know than one we don’t, the next man might be worse.’ Lord Petyr’s words in my brother’s mouth, I’ll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I’m certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did yourself.”

Interesting. Stannis admits that the crown made a tidy profit off the corruption (there was some material benefit to the realm as a by-product), and even acknowledges the practical issue of “the evil you know is better than the evil you don’t,” but the fact Slynt was not chastened for breaking the law seems like a personal defeat to Stannis.

Aemon senses this is a personal issue for Stannis, and segues back to the Watch with a reminder that Stannis cannot punish a man who’s taken the black. Furstrated, Stannis says he’d even “choke down” Slynt if need be, but that they really need to just come to a decision, as “We have a war to fight.” Mallister speaks up to ensure they’re all on the same page, and that Stannis is not speaking about political wars. He gives his word:

“I give you my word, I shall not ask you to lift your swords against any of the rebels and usurpers who plague me. I do expect that you will continue to defend the Wall as you always have.”

They easily agree to this, but balk when Stannis tells them he intends to take the abandoned castles and the Gift. Bowen, Mallister and Pyke all resist this vocally; when they tire, Stannis gives the following threat:

“I have three times the men you do. I can take the lands if I wish, but I would prefer to do this legally, with your consent.”

“The Gift was given to the Night’s Watch in perpetuity, Your Grace,” Bowen Marsh insisted.

“Which means it cannot be lawfully seized, attained, or taken from you. But what was given once can be given again.”

Stannis wants this to be relatively painless, but lets the men know he’s going to get what he needs come hell or highwater, and will use force if need be. When asked why he needs the Gift, Stannis withholds his answer. From the previous Jon chapter, we know he plans to settle the wildlings on there; given the tension of this meeting, it was probably shrewd on Stannis’ part not to reveal this quite yet. He elaborates on the need for castles, and announces that nightfires will be lit at each.

Bowen balks at the nightfire suggestion, looking “uncertainly” at Mel. She speaks for the first time, elaborating:

The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. “Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”

This is the first time that the issue of the Others has emerged in the meeting. It was hinted at when Stannis tells the men that “they know” it’s not a political battle he means to fight, but the apocalypse has been the elephant in the room. Politics had taken front row in this; and it’s Mel who makes the appeal to the common enemy, not Stannis. The men fall into silence at Mel’s words, and don’t seem to know how to respond. Finally, Aemon starts asking salient questions:

But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”

Sam notes that Stannis looks “desperately uncomfortable” by this assertion, and dismisses them all save Aemon and Sam.

II. Aemon, Sam and Azor Ahai

Stannis wants to speak with Sam for two reasons: info on Other-slaying, and info about the Black Gate at the Nightfort, where Stannis plans to make his seat. His reason for keeping Aemon is less obvious to me, though I suspect he wants Aemon to pass along Stannis’ parting threat to influence the Watchmen to choose at this evening’s election.

Sam identifies the dagger he used as dragonglass, which Mel translates as “frozen fire” in Ancient Valyrian. Stannis reveals that he’s sent word to his castellan to mine at Dragonstone for it, a strong sign that Stannis is indeed taking the battle for the Dawn seriously. Sam elaborates that obsidian only shatters when it makes contact with wights, a fact that doesn’t surprise Mel:

Melisandre smiled. “Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more.”

“Demons made of snow and ice and cold,” said Stannis Baratheon. “The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters.”

Intrigued, Aemon asks to see Stannis’ Lightbringer. Sam serves as eyes:

“It glows,” said Sam, in a hushed voice. “As if it were on fire. There are no flames, but the steel is yellow and red and orange, all flashing and glimmering, like sunshine on water, but prettier. I wish you could see it, Maester.”

After the display, Stannis dismisses them with a final warning:

“Very well, you’ve seen it. You may return to your duties now. And remember what I said. Your brothers will chose a Lord Commander tonight, or I shall make them wish they had.”

Aemon seems hugely preoccupied with the AA myth; he begins to rue his blindness, wishing he could consult his books. Given what we know in DwD, I suspect Aemon wants to consult The Jade Compendium, which we know he’ll later consult on the AA prophesy. It would seem that Mel, Stannis (through Mel) and Aemon are the only 3 people who have any idea with the AA business means.

There’s a few words of caution I’d like to throw out there, since there’s a lot about myths in this chapter. We know that Aemon had been preoccupied with prophesy, and took the PtwP one, said by a Woods Witch to Aemon’s brother, quite seriously. The R’hllorists call Azor Ahai Reborn “PtwP,” and Aemon, clearly familiar with AA myth, has connected the Wood’s Witch’s “PtwP” to R’hllor. I just want to point out that PtwP doesn’t necessarily mean AAR, only that those familiar with R’hllor believe they do. (I should note that I’m parsing this out less to debate about the prophesies, but rather because the Jade Compendium will end up in Jon’s hand in a few chapters)

Further, I’m curious about the extent to which Mel actually knows about the Others. She correctly identifies that Others use sorcery to reanimate corpses, and that it makes sense they’d be killed in different ways. She calls them “children of the Other,” and Stannis calls them “ice demons.” Is there actually anything in R’hllorist lore that details out these particular creatures they call “the ancient enemy,” or has Mel applied the AA myth onto the descriptions of the wights/ Others she’s culled from Mance and other wildlings?

III. Sam the negotiator

Sam leaves the meeting feeling much duress over the implications. He seems particularly concerned about the prospect of Stannis stepping in, as well as the ramifications of choosing an unsuitable party. He asks Aemon to step in, but Aemon refuses, given that he’s sworn to serve. Desperate, Sam realizes he’s in a unique position to do something, prodded by Aemon’s veiled encouragement.

Sam identifies Pyke and Mallister as the two most likely and best suited candidates. Mallister has been ahead, but since 2/3 of the vote is needed, Sam realizes that they’ll never come to a decision unless one folds and supports the other. As a curiosity, I wonder if Slynt’s withdrawal would have resulted in a victory for one of these two, but I suspect Sam thought the other two might be more amenable to any suggestion than him (and he probably had suspicion that Mallister and Pyke might actually have the Watch’s real interests in mind), so he decided not to work that angle. The differences between Pyke and Mallister have already appeared during the meeting; these differences become much more pronounced in Sam’s negotiations, and I can’t help but admire how quickly Sam learns to play to that in his appeal.

He goes to Pyke first, who’s dicing in the Shieldhall. Pyke’s rudeness throws Sam off at first, but the power dynamic is shifted when Pyke assumes that Sam’s there at Aemon’s request. Sam applies a lesson from the “Varys Book of Technical Truths,” and thinks:

“The maester?” Sam swallowed. “I . . . I just left him, my lord.” That wasn’t truly a lie, but if Pyke chose to read it wrong, it might make him more inclined to listen.

Sam appeals to Pyke to withdraw in favor of Mallister. Pyke vehemently refuses, citing Mallister’s age, and the fact he’s not a fighter. Between the wights and the need to stand up to Stannis, Pyke thinks the scope of what’s needed is more than Mallister is capable of.

Pyke goes on to say that he doesn’t even want the job for its own sake; the issue is that he takes the circumstances they’re facing seriously, and believes he’s the best qualified for that. He wants what’s best for the Watch, and according to his viewpoint, the man must be spry and a “fighter.” When Sam suggests “someone else,” Pyke reveals his disgust for the other candidates: Bowen’s just a counter, Othell’s a follower, Slynt has “too much of KL in him.”

The meeting with Mallister is much smoother. He too assumes that Aemon sent Sam, and reveals that he has a suspicion Stannis might end up choosing for them. Mallister is suspicious of Stannis’ involvement in general, especially because he doesn’t believe Stannis will “keep his crown long,” suggesting that by being too bound with this man, the Watch’s fate might become tied to his.

Sam makes the same appeal, but Mallister is just as firm in his refusal. He finds Pyke too unrefined and too much of a warhawk to represent the Watch: Pyke lacks diplomacy, blood, birth, early training, and is illiterate. Like Pyke, Mallister says he doesn’t want the position for its own sake, but that according to his view, he’d be best of the other contenders for what needs to be done. Interestingly, his concerns about Pyke don’t involve a perceived inability to deal with the Others, but rather he believes Pyke would be unsuitable to deal with the king making a home here. He has similar complaints about the other contenders: Bowen and Othell are not up to the task, Slynt is “upjumped and venal” (though, this was a point in his favor to Pyke, just as a “fuck you” to Stannis).

Sam makes a new pitch:

“There’s another man,” Sam blurted out. “Lord Commander Mormont trusted him. So did Donal Noye and Qhorin Halfhand. Though he’s not as highly born as you, he comes from old blood. He was castle-born and castle-raised, and he learned sword and lance from a knight and letters from a maester of the Citadel. His father was a lord, and his brother a king.”

Ser Denys stroked his long white beard. “Mayhaps,” he said, after a long moment. “He is very young, but . . . mayhaps. He might serve, I grant you, though I would be more suitable. I have no doubt of that. I would be the wiser choice.”

To Mallister, he emphasizes Jon’s old blood, being castle bred and trained, is literate, knightly, and had been trusted by prestigious Watchmen like Donal, Qhorin and Mormont. To seal the deal, Sam comes up with a little white lie, ironically, told such a lie could have honor by no other than Jon:

Jon said there could be honor in a lie, if it were told for the right reason. Sam said, “If we do not choose a Lord Commander tonight, King Stannis means to name Cotter Pyke. He said as much to Maester Aemon this morning, after all of you had left.”

Emboldened, he returns to Pyke, armed with the new “honorable” lie, and pitches Jon, only now in terms that would appeal to Pyke:

“No. A fighter. Donal Noye gave him the Wall when the wildlings came, and he was the Old Bear’s squire. The only thing is, he’s bastard-born.”

He emphasizes Jon’s ability to fight and hold command, and speaks to his bastardy as a point likely to get Pyke, himself a bastard, on board. Sam closes the deal with a repetition of the lie that Stannis will choose Mallister if they don’t come to consensus that night.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Given that I'm not in the Hardhome was doomed to failure considering Tormund just moved thousands of people to the wall and the fact that everybody and their mothers were against it makes me wonder if there is a slight Mel/Bowen connection considering she saw it fall in the flames.

[Fire Eater]

Good job, bumps!

I agree there is something funny going on between Marsh and Mel. I think it is possible they come to some form of an agreement in TWoW, possibly with Bowen not saying no to Mel's offer that she made to both Davos and Jon.

He found him [Pyke] in the old Shieldhall

when his steward brought Sam to him [Mallister] in the Lance

Mallister is in the Lance, the lance being a knight's weapon and associated with knighthood, tourneys and chivalry, while Pyke is a shield, which is more universally used, and even knights must use them with lances. Mallister and Pyke together make a fully-armed knight with lance and shield. They are two parts of a whole, yin and yang. One is a bastard the other described as having a beard "white as snow." That should clue us in who the right LC should be. Jon has features of both, another ice and fire characteristic for him.

Sam proves to be shrewd politician here, as he is able to manipulate both men into supporting his candidate.

I felt no heat. Did you Sam?

Aemon seems to be already showing some doubts as he remembers reading that Lightbringer radiated heat, and it seems even a blind man can see what others can't, including Melisandre.

[Julian Rayne]

He emphasizes Jon’s ability to fight and hold command, and speaks to his bastardy as a point likely to get Pyke, himself a bastard, on board.

The true genius of that move was the way he stated it as though he thought Pyke might hold Jon's bastardy against him. "The only thing is, he's bastard born." He picks a trait that he knows Pyke doesn't see as a negative and states it as Jon's worst quality. That's a pretty well done bit of manipulation.

And doing so he shows a far greater ability to read other people than Slynt, whose stupidity continues to astound me. Slynt knows Stannis, he's worked with him for years, he knows Stannis has conducted and investigation against him (or he would not have knocked off the witnesses). Why he thought his brown nosing would work is beyond me.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Cotter Pyke, describing Janos Slynt -

... A toad grows wings and thinks he's a bloody dragon. ...

Is that foreshadowing for Quentin Martell?

Sam exhibits skills in reading and persuading people in this chapter that we haven't seen before to this degree. He's used them before with Jon, but here he knows exactly how to appeal to two entirely different personalities. Just one example -

Ser Denys is very status conscious, so Sam goes formal.

Lord Commander Mormont trusted him.

Cotter Pyke is proud of his lower roots, so Sam goes informal.

... and he was the Old Bear's squire.

Sam learned empathy from his mother, and not much of anything from his father, but this is something he's picked up on his own. Our little Sam is growing up.

I assumed that Bowen Marsh was present in his capacity as castellan of Castle Black - he's the host. And I think the line

Sam did not understand why Melisandre should seem so interested in him.

refers to Sam. The paragraph starts

I have no place here, Sam thought anxiously, when her red eyes fell upon him.

Marsh worships the Seven. He is the one who seems surprised by Stannis' demand to light nightfires. I didn't get any feel for anything between him and Mel. Am I missing something?

[butterbumps!]

He found him [Pyke] in the old Shieldhall

when his steward brought Sam to him [Mallister] in the Lance

Mallister is in the Lance, the lance being a knight's weapon and associated with knighthood, tourneys and chivalry, while Pyke is a shield, which is more universally used, and even knights must use them with lances. Mallister and Pyke together make a fully-armed knight with lance and shield. They are two parts of a whole, yin and yang. One is a bastard the other described as having a beard "white as snow." That should clue us in who the right LC should be. Jon has features of both, another ice and fire characteristic for him.

I think you hit on the symbolism really well. To add to yours, in Jon VII, during Styr's attack, we're given some additional description of some buildings. We learn that the Lance Tower is the tallest, but was crumbling and appeared likely to "topple." As it pertains to Mallister, it might be a comment on his age and the "outdatedness" of knighthood, at least in the sense of the "theoretical fighting" Mallister is proud of. There's something of an "ivory tower" association with this-- Mallister is seen as the sort who'd "write letters to the wights," he seems slightly removed from the other men, and there's a hint of academic elitism to his persona. This compares to Pyke in the Shieldhall, closer to the ground and a gathering place. Pyke has a sort of "common denominator" appeal-- he's gambling in the main hall with 3 of his men and a King's Man as well. He's accessible in his interests in a way Mallister isn't, reflected in the buildings they're haunting.

And doing so he shows a far greater ability to read other people than Slynt, whose stupidity continues to astound me. Slynt knows Stannis, he's worked with him for years, he knows Stannis has conducted and investigation against him (or he would not have knocked off the witnesses). Why he thought his brown nosing would work is beyond me.

Yea, I don't quite get this either. I mean, can someone be that stupid? I can kind of follow the impulse to express gratefulness Stannis came as a way to make amends for the past, but then to go to the extent of asking Stannis to endorse him is beyond reason. He's not even trying to say "let bygones be bygones;" he seems to genuinely hope Stannis has amnesia about his crimes, and seems to be trying to make a new impression or something.

I assumed that Bowen Marsh was present in his capacity as castellan of Castle Black - he's the host. And I think the line

refers to Sam. The paragraph starts

Marsh worships the Seven. He is the one who seems surprised by Stannis' demand to light nightfires. I didn't get any feel for anything between him and Mel. Am I missing something?

Does Bowen actually worship the Seven? He's a Northman (Marsh is a lower House in the Neck) so he might follow the Old Gods. I know Bowen tends to accompany recruits to the godswood (in aGoT and then in DwD, and in DwD he gets a little protective of them). I'm actually not sure which religion he is-- is there a clue somewhere?

But to answer why it looks like there might be a Mel-Bowen connection, we get this after the part you quoted:

The others were contenders for the Old Bear’s command, all but Bowen Marsh, who had withdrawn from the contest but remained castellan and Lord Steward. Sam did not understand why Melisandre should seem so interested in him.

Sam points out that Bowen is castellan and Lord Steward, but doesn't think that's why Mel wants him there-- Sam's actually surprised by it,. Then a few paragraphs later, Stannis addresses the men, informing them that Mel's reported on the election. Someone is likely feeding Mel info about the Watch.

I'm not thinking there's some deep conspiracy here or anything, only that Mel's interest in Bowen was explicitly noted as being strange, and we get a hint that someone's likely been talking to Mel about the Watch.

[Arya Targaryen]

But to answer why it looks like there might be a Mel-Bowen connection, we get this after the part you quoted:

The others were contenders for the Old Bear’s command, all but Bowen Marsh, who had withdrawn from the contest but remained castellan and Lord Steward. Sam did not understand why Melisandre should seem so interested in him.

Sam points out that Bowen is castellan and Lord Steward, but doesn't think that's why Mel wants him there-- Sam's actually surprised by it,. Then a few paragraphs later, Stannis addresses the men, informing them that Mel's reported on the election. Someone is likely feeding Mel info about the Watch.

I'm not thinking there's some deep conspiracy here or anything, only that Mel's interest in Bowen was explicitly noted as being strange, and we get a hint that someone's likely been talking to Mel about the Watch.

I've always read it as Sam is surprised that he (Sam) needs to be there, as there is a reason for the rest of them: contenders and castellan (Bowen). But Sam had to stay as well, and he is neither - that's what he doesn't understand.

[butterbumps!]

I've always read it as Sam is surprised that he (Sam) needs to be there, as there is a reason for the rest of them: contenders and castellan (Bowen). But Sam had to stay as well, and he is neither - that's what he doesn't understand.

That might be right-- that's how I'd always read it too, as a continuation of Sam's discomfort, with the "him" referring to Sam. It occurred to me while doing the chapter it might be Bowen when I realized Mel was doing Stannis' reporting and probably had an inside man. But yea, if the "him" referent is Sam, then Bowen's there simply because he's castellan.

This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw

But isn't "Seven save us" just a common saying? People who aren't Christians frequently exclaim "Jesus Christ!" or non-religious people say "goddammit." I guess, if he does follow the Seven, did he always do so? Because he's a Northman, and I was under the impression they don't worship the 7 above the Neck.

[Mithras]

Does Bowen actually worship the Seven? He's a Northman (Marsh is a lower House in the Neck) so he might follow the Old Gods. I know Bowen tends to accompany recruits to the godswood (in aGoT and then in DwD, and in DwD he gets a little protective of them). I'm actually not sure which religion he is-- is there a clue somewhere?

This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw

[Julian Rayne]

I don't think it's conclusive. People all over Westeros swear "by the Old Gods and the New" for example. They're somewhat more - I want to say "syncretic" but that's not quite the right word - than you'd expect from a pseudo-medieval society.

[Mithras]

I don't think it's conclusive. People all over Westeros swear "by the Old Gods and the New" for example. They're somewhat more - I want to say "syncretic" but that's not quite the right word - than you'd expect from a pseudo-medieval society.

“Gods save me,” Ned wept. “I am going mad.”

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I'm pretty sure he argues against going beyond the wall to the heart tree and that the sept is here and I know he doesn't go with them in Dance or did I miss something???

[bemused]

Information about house Marsh is being held in reserve ;) which ( I guess ) makes sense , since Howland Reed is their overlord. It seems to me it must be located on the southern borders of "the North". He's never seemed particularly religious , to me , but if anything , to worship secular tradition . He does accompany Jon et al to swear their oath at the weirwoods in AGoT ( not in Dance) but doesn't seem to have a particularly devout attitude while there. He later seems chummy with Cellador, and Alf of Runnymudd, a queen's man later becomes one of his close sympathizers...It seems the religion doesn't matter so much,as long at the politics are compatible.

When he later objects to Jon taking the new recruits out to swear their oaths , it's because it's dangerous , and ( if I recall ) he seems to think the sept is safer.. it's convenient and will serve as well. Maybe his skittishness about the nightfires is based more on the political statement that would make ( wouldn't please Tywin ... Stannis takeover..)...?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Sam the Player!

Out of all the younger characters, Sam is the most talented on politics, he showed signs of this before but it's here that he really shines. The way he handled the lance and shield duo (great observation, btw) was brilliant. If he gets more self confident, he will outplay them all.

A toad grows wings and thinks he’s a bloody dragon

I think this is exactly what happened to Janos Slynt. I agree that his behavior, since he appered at the Wall, seems not to make sense. But maybe, being given Harrenhal (something way more than anything he could have expected), had an effect on his self perception. Maybe he bought too much into the lordly image of Janos Slynt, so much that he forgot who he was before and, more importantly, forgot that others would never forget.

“It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

Maybe it's because of the wording and I'm reading too much into this, but Maester Aemon disappointed me here. It looks like he believes that if it is the long night then there *must* be a prince that was promised, or, differently, if there is not a promised prince then this is not the long night. In other words, he is too much convinced that the prophecy is accurate and it must be fulfilled. After all, promises can be broken...

I like that Stannis is uncomfortable with the role of the promised hero. Hero and savior are honorifics that can only be attributed when the deed is done and not before. Anyone with a little bit of good sense would know that before everything is said and done, titles of this kind are without merit. Somehow, it makes Aemon's eagerness to "locate" and name "the one" look even more silly to me.

edit:spelling

[Queen Alienor]

Great post, butterbumps!

In this chapter Stannis shows once again that he is not a man for politics or making people like him. First he goes to tell us (and Sam) that he admires Ranyll Tarly

"Your father is an able soldier." Stannis said. "He defeated my brother once, at Ashford. Mace Tyrell has been pleased to claim the honors for that victory, but Lord Randyll had decided matters befor Tyrell ever found the battlefield. He slew Lord Cafferen with that great Valyrian sword of his and sent his head to Aerys."

From Stannis, that seems like more or less the highest praise a lord that is not supporting his claim will get. His next sentence is quite insensitive, especially as it's said directly to Sam.

You are not the sort of son I would expect such a man to have.

You can think of Stannis what you will, but he does not have people skills. The Tarly's are southrons. They have all but forgotten that it was once considered a great honor to serve at the Wall. And Sam is very clearly not a fighter. Why the hell does Stannis think Sam, the Tarly heir, went to the Wall?

Also quite ironic is his short considering that it would have been nice to take Sam as a hostage against Randyll. Since we know exactly under which circumstances Sam went to the Wall, I don't think Randyll would have given a shit if Stannis killed Sam.

He also isn't exactly nice to his greatuncle Aemon. He makes a point of telling Aemon that he knows exactly who he is.

I am aware of more than you know, Aemon Targaryen.

It's been talked about how Aemon and Jon are so close without knowing they are family. The relationship Stannis/Aemon is very much the opposite of that. Both of them know they are family, yet Stannis is openly antagonistic while Aemon is cold. That could of course still come from the rebellion, but honestly, Jon is a Stark in everything but name and the Starks were part of the rebellion too.

[Ragnorak]

Very Nice job, Butterbumps.

Fire Eater, I love the lance and shield catch. Odd that the lance is the offensive implement and the "fighter," Cotter Pyke, is in the defensive implement structure. The Shield Hall is also the place associated with knighthood and noble lineage that we'd expect to surround Ser Denys. The physical state of the Lance mirrors Ser Denys as Butterbumps observed. My initial reaction was that the Shield Hall is in contrast to Cotter Pyke's bastard status but given the Lance mirroring Ser Denys I think a different perspective is more appropriate. Later Pyke will be sent as the shield for the Wildlings at Hardhome. I wonder if there's a bit of a "true knight" implication for Pyke here too. He's the one that says they'll defend the Wall to the last man (and I do think he's fanatically sincere in his intent.) Also worth mentioning is that the Watch is "the shield" that guards... "the horn" that wakes.... also a sword but never a lance in their oath.

Some observations...

Sam's line I have no place here reminded me of Jon's crypt dream.

Sam steps forward to officially become a player in the Game of Thrones. Much of the drama and need for Sam to play comes from the introduction of Slynt. Slynt became Lord of Harrenhal for a fortnight or so as a piece in Littlefinger's game. He ends up at the Wall because he's used as a piece by Varys-- Tyrion sends him to be sure but Varys feeds Tyrion the information. Our two main subtle players are paid a tribute of sorts by Slynt's presence. We get an enlightening exposé on LF's financial and corruption dealings along with one of his main means of manipulation:

Lord Petyr’s words in my brother’s mouth, I’ll warrant.

Toward the end this is exactly the technique Sam employs with both Denys and Cotter. They'll go to the next vote with Sam's words in their mouths. There is a bit of a Varys nod too.

“Aye, no doubt. Well, out with it, Slayer. Did the maester send you to me?”
“The maester?” Sam swallowed. “I… I just left him, my lord.” That wasn’t truly a lie, but if Pyke chose to read it wrong

This is exactly how Varys manipulates people. Nothing he ever says is "truly a lie" in exactly the same way Sam isn't lying to Cotter while he deceives him about Aemon's sending or not sending Sam.

No elaborate theories, I just thought it was a rather nice literary touch.

I also like how "in character" the characters are-- like Bowen's objection to Stannis is about counting. “Sire,” said Bowen Marsh in a defensive tone, “no one has achieved two-thirds of the vote yet. It has only been ten days.”

How is Sam perceived by the other Black Brothers?

To a degree Sam is approaching Cotter and Denys with a certain borrowed respect from Aemon, but I don't think he'd get the same reception from these two men had he not gone on the ranging, survived the trek from Craster's with Gilly, and killed the Other. Sam is the unlikely hero and I think that also describes the attitude and respect he gets from these two men. His actions have really earned him a place in the Watch much the way they earned him a place in this meeting with Stannis-- or at least that's how I read it.

Jon and Sam are both stewards and therefore both technically under Bowen Marsh. Serving Aemon and Mormont may make them a bit of an exception but I don't think we've had a single example of Marsh actually "leading" or "managing" Jon or Sam. The line about Marsh relieving Jon of duty is the only one I can think of. Ser Denys clearly has his men and Cotter Pyke as well but we get none of this sense with Bowen even with two POV characters under his command-- three if we count the ill fated Chett.

[Bran Vras]

Religous divide

Septon Cellador is the only man who counts at the Wall not invited to Stannis’ council. There is no love between the Red God and the Seven. We knew already that Melisandre and Cellador are hostile to the Old Gods. There will be a tripartite religious divide at the Wall to follow all along ADwD. While Cellador rejects Jon as impious (Jon IX), Melisandre attempts to lure him (starting with Jon XI). As a comment on the previous Sam chapter, I could add that conversely, Jon sees Melisandre as beautiful, perhaps tempting, if somewhat unnatural, while he sees no more than a drunk in Cellador. The first time Cellador is mentioned in AGoT, Jon makes a negative association with Catelyn’s sept in Winterfell. There is antipathy for the faith of the Seven in Jon.

I perceive Bowen Marsh’s dismay at the notion of lighting nightfires as being of religious nature. I don’t doubt that he follows the Seven, but I couldn’t find a clear indication that he listens to Septon Cellador or that he prays in the Sept.

Melisandre’s perspective: Bumps said that Stannis conjured the meeting to speed up the choosing. This might not be the red woman’s point of view. Her discourse on the "war for life itself" is received with silent embarrassment by all the candidates. What conclusions should we draw? Was it an attempt to assess Marsh, Mallister, Pyke, Yarwyck, Slynt, Hobb and Edd? Otherwise why not go to the Lord Commander after the election? Is Melisandre unhappy with the current array of candidates? There is no reason to believe she tempered with the election. But I can’t help notice that only Aemon is be receptive to her appeal, and eventually Aemon’s candidate will be elected – much to the satisfaction of the Lord of Light, I suppose.

Aemon himself is a follower of the Seven… who leans towards agnosticism and syncretism. His openness to foreign exotic traditions (he defended the old gods in Jon IX) is manifest here. Bumps has put that in perspective with the correspondence with Rhaegar. During his final days Aemon is willing to consider all sorts of beliefs for the afterlife, including those of the Dothraki. It’s not clear to me whether his interest comes from his Targaryen heritage, from his education as a maester or from his personal curiosity.

Stannis and Melisandre have never seen Sam before. But they mentioned the obsidian dagger in the previous Jon chapter. Why haven’t they inquired earlier and more thoroughly about the slaying of the Other? Probably because they received all the information they needed from Mance.

Various points

Aemon and Stannis. Of course Stannis has recognized in Aemon his great great uncle. But there is no explicit acknowledgment of blood relations, especially not when Aemon recalls that he has forgone his name by forging his chain. Nevertheless, part of Robert’s (and therefore Stannis’) claim derives from the Targaryen ancestry.

Aemon and Sam. Isn’t there a continuing interaction between Aemon and Sam after Sam agrees to intervene? The text is not clear about that, but I understand that Sam discussed with Aemon how to deal with Pyke and Mallister. (GRRM kept that offscreen for obvious storytelling reasons.)

Nightfort. Why does Stannis insist on that seat? Symbolic value or undisclosed knowledge?

Necromancy. The term has been exclusively used to describe Qyburn’s black arts in ACoK and ASoS. Does that make of Robert Strong a wight? This is not the place to discuss Robert Strong. But the comparison is to be kept in mind.

Simony. Bumps brought up this great concept in her OP. It doesn’t apply properly to Slynt yet, I think, since Slynt did not award clerical charges or anything spiritual in exchange of material goods. But it seems to me that ceding the Gift to Stannis would be in effect a form a simony (or at least that’s debatable), and Slynt is among those who don’t protest when Stannis makes his demands.

Will Dolorous Edd really be the last man to defend the Wall?

[Mithras]

Will Dolorous Edd really be the last man to defend the Wall?

I remember something like that. Also in the future, he will dream he is pissing off the Wall and someone blowing a horn.

[butterbumps!]

“It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

Maybe it's because of the wording and I'm reading too much into this, but Maester Aemon disappointed me here. It looks like he believes that if it is the long night then there *must* be a prince that was promised, or, differently, if there is not a promised prince then this is not the long night. In other words, he is too much convinced that the prophecy is accurate and it must be fulfilled. After all, promises can be broken...

I like that Stannis is uncomfortable with the role of the promised hero. Hero and savior are honorifics that can only be attributed when the deed is done and not before. Anyone with a little bit of good sense would know that before everything is said and done, titles of this kind are without merit. Somehow, it makes Aemon's eagerness to "locate" and name "the one" look even more silly to me.

I actually had a very similar reaction, I have to admit. I think part of my disappointment was the fact that Aemon reveals his knowledge of the Long Night, something that would be more than slightly apropos to expand upon, but his focus is about the PtwP rather than what the Long Night actually might entail. Conversely, I also got the sense that he might be testing Mel a bit, that is, perhaps he'd anticipated that she may have declared Stannis as the PtwP, and he wanted to confirm it was BS; the sword demonstration might speak to that.

Your other point-- that without a PtwP, this might not be the Long Night-- is intriguing and raises some questions for me. No one else has been referring to the onslaught of Others as the "Long Night" or the "Battle for the Dawn," have they? I realize now that I've been using these terms to summarize the situation, but that the characters might not be seeing it that way. Mel and Davos (and Stannis, via Mel) have certainly made the connection, and tales of the Long Night are part of Northern folklore (like Old Nan's accounts), but has anyone else seen the Others' return as the advent of an epic battle? There was an early Jon chapter-- where they found Othor and Jafer's bodies-- where Jon thinks on Old Nan's tales of the Long Night, but dismisses it as fairytales. We know here that Pyke is taking the Others business seriously, and post-Fist, it's clear everyone at the Watch knows the Others have returned.

I guess, do we know who other than Mel and Stannis believes this is the Long Night? That this isn't just a few Others and wights, but a serious apocalypse?

Information about house Marsh is being held in reserve ;) which ( I guess ) makes sense , since Howland Reed is their overlord. It seems to me it must be located on the southern borders of "the North". He's never seemed particularly religious , to me , but if anything , to worship secular tradition . He does accompany Jon et al to swear their oath at the weirwoods in AGoT ( not in Dance) but doesn't seem to have a particularly devout attitude while there. He later seems chummy with Cellador, and Alf of Runnymudd, a queen's man later becomes one of his close sympathizers...It seems the religion doesn't matter so much,as long at the politics are compatible.

When he later objects to Jon taking the new recruits out to swear their oaths , it's because it's dangerous , and ( if I recall ) he seems to think the sept is safer.. it's convenient and will serve as well. Maybe his skittishness about the nightfires is based more on the political statement that would make ( wouldn't please Tywin ... Stannis takeover..)...?

Yea, that's what confused me. He didn't strike me as religious, and despite knowing he's a northerner, I never saw him as particularly "northern." By which I mean I don't recall much interest in the state of the North (his political concerns pertain to KL usually), he uses Southron swears, and has interest in Southron decorum (not to an extreme or absurd level or anything). But I'd be surprised if he was raised on the Seven as opposed to the old gods given that he's from the Neck. He might just be unreligious or keep his religiosity private.

But the passage I was thinking of comes from the chapter you mention in aGoT-- Bowen accompanies the new recruits to the godswood and shows respect for the site, even calling it "sacred:"

Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. “This is a sacred place, we will not defile it.”

Religous divide

I perceive Bowen Marsh’s dismay at the notion of lighting nightfires as being of religious nature. I don’t doubt that he follows the Seven, but I couldn’t find a clear indication that he listens to Septon Cellador or that he prays in the Sept.

Various points

Nightfort. Why does Stannis insist on that seat? Symbolic value or undisclosed knowledge?

Simony. Bumps brought up this great concept in her OP. It doesn’t apply properly to Slynt yet, I think, since Slynt did not award clerical charges or anything spiritual in exchange of material goods. But it seems to me that ceding the Gift to Stannis would be in effect a form a simony (or at least that’s debatable), and Slynt is among those who don’t protest when Stannis makes his demands.

I'm not sure if Bowen's dismay over the nightfires is religious in nature. I'd thought it might have more of a political and/ or distrust of Mel source. Tyrion kills Tywin in the chapter immediately preceding this one, but of course the news hasn't hit yet. Lighting nightfires might send a message to KL that they've drunk too much of the Stannis Kool Aid. I think R'hllor also comes across as a bit frightening to unfamiliar parties, especially given the outside perspective that it seems like Mel puts Stannis up to a lot. I got the sense that a lot of outsiders (Jon even says Mel is Stannis' "true queen") see Mel as having a lot of influence over Stannis, and that might be disconcerting when Stannis presents terms that are clearly in service to Mel's agenda like this. It's not just an issue of religious conflict, but the politicizing of religion that might be the problem Bowen and others have with the prospect of Nightfires.

I was curious about the Nightfort too. My best guess is that he chose it because of the Black Gate (all the other abandoned castles are sealed). He'd already heard of Sam's adventure it seems, and knew this was the castle with access beyond the Wall. I'm thinking it might be largely based on that.

Also, lol, yea, I wasn't sure if "simony" could be used secularly. Is there another word for that? lol, I was hoping no one would notice.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I guess, do we know who other than Mel and Stannis believes this is the Long Night? That this isn't just a few Others and wights, but a serious apocalypse?

Up to this point in the books, I think it's basically Bloodraven (and Bran): "Now you know why you must live. [...] Because winter is coming."

The Old Bear had started to, more sense than, believe that there's something unsusual coming along with the impending winter, Mance and the wildlings have to see it, too, and I suppose that anyone who survived the Fist of First Men should be aware of it by now, provided that they've heard of the legends. However, some of them might be in denial.