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The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!


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With regard to the frontier and pioneering, if I remember correctly, you are a citizen of the United States of A. the romance of the pioneer and the settler is part of your national myth. Its no surprise that you should find it appealing. It's interesting how GRRM is playing with the imagery and the ideas here in that in some ways the Wildlings are the settlers (free, independant, self-sufficent), in others the Indians (the Noble Savage, the barbarian other, the strong relationship with nature). Likewise the Night's Watch are in some ways the Indians - think Qhorin, but also the 7th cavalry, patroling the frontier keeping civilisation safe etc :dunno:

Yes, with the white cloak. I suppose for me it is not a symbol of Jaime's half heartedness, but of ambiguity. Had he been in Lannister Gold and Red the semiotics are that this is an act of rebellion, of a nobleman against the King. Had he been entirely in the White of a King's Guard then this is a deposition by the pratorian guard - an assertion that the Kingsguard has the right to judge and punish the King if he fails in his duty. By appearing in both it is not clear what he is saying I suppose. Looking at his orders to the Kingsguard later when he is lord Commander then I think there is a praetorian element to Jaime's thinking. The Kingsguard has independant morality and intelligence and should use these to guide his attitude towards the king and the king's orders. The kingsguard has the duty, implicitly, to protect the king from himself and his own worst instincts.

Apples. We always come back to apples. Temptation doesn't seem good enough. Discord isn't enough either. Rewards and heavenly promise. An archetypal fruit? There is more munching to be done here...

I agree entirely about the moral fibre. These are the moments that reveal the character and again Jon chooses mercy.

I don't know about plot gift. I mean Jon has to escape to get back to the Wall, I think the contrast between his feeling of loneilness, his fear of dying alone, and the fraternal love that leaps in and dismays the Thenns is a good one.

Yes I suppose Ygritte believes in a universal freedom while the Lords of Westeros would believe that they are free but those below them should not be :dunno:

I thought that Jon's thought "Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth...they were his joy and his despair" was an echo of Maester Aemon's "We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." in Jon VII AGOT.

I think there's a good deal of self-delusion in the wildlings seeing themselves as Free Folk, compared to the Kneelers South of the Wall.

There are wildling leaders like the Magnar of Thenn, or Varaymr Sixskins, who make others submit to their will. In all likelihood, people like Harma Dogshead and the Weeper behave similarly. Capable fighters have some freedom North of the Wall; the rest of the population are at the mercy of those capable fighters.

Had the wildlings actually broken through the Wall, and established themselves in the North, I think their way of life would have become indistinguishable from that of the "Kneelers" within a generation or two.

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Regarding Jaime, I always thought that his answer “The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king’s secrets. Would you have me break my oath?” was sarcastic, sarcasm directed mainly to himself, and to his ever since reputation of oathbreaker. His second line explains it, in truth: “Do you think the noble Lord of Winterfell wanted to hear my feeble explanations? Such an honorable man. He only had to look at me to judge me guilty.



Jaime was caught in a situation that explaining his truth would very much sound like a lame "it is not what it looks like" excuse. I believe it was out of pride that he chose to suffer subsequent people's contempt in silence, to "own" what he did and to adopt -for the world- the "there is only me" attitude. However, inside, it hurt and I think it led him, much like his brother (who also, after the trial, chooses to "own" Joffrey's murder), to (try to? succeeed to?) become "the monster they all say I am".



In that, Jon is quite different. He struggles with his oaths as well, he's also preoccupied about his personal honour -in spite of what Qhorin told him about it, I think that he hasn't got over it, not really- but what matters most to him is IMO his sense of right and wrong. Once he's made the choice that he can live with, he's not that much interested about what people would say. After all, he has learned to live with the bastard label.


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The free folk...



The conversation between Jon and Ygritte is very interesting in terms of a sociology/athropology analysis of their culture. We only have bits and pieces of information about them, and Jon has only been with them for a short amount of time, during an irregular situation. The overall image I get of them, especially this exchange, reminds me of the Iroquoi society, based on a matrilineal clan system, as I read in "The origin of the Family, Private Property and the State" - a very long time ago, admittedly.



The "mainstream" free folk tribe (not including Thenns, cave dwellers, hornfoots etc) seem to be on the middle barbarism period, according to Lewis H. Morgan's system of characterization of society progress, or alternatively, around late neolithic period according to the three-age system. It is important to notice that they don't forge, they have a form of marriage that looks a lot like what Engels calls "Pairing Family" and land is collectively owned by the clanns who live on it. I can't find enough textual support for this, but it seems that matrilocality is a very common system of residence, if not the norm. In such societies, women played a very important role and they were regarded very highly and it explains Ygritte's insistence that no man can force her for long.



I tend to believe that Jon and Ygritte are talking without having established a common ground. Neither of them fully understands the context where the other's arguments are based (Ygritte even less so). The freefolk's customs and way of life could not be applicable in a "medieval" society, yet for the freefolk it would be a huge repression to have to live the life of "kneelers". However, south of the Wall they are indeed doomed, "destined to vanish from the earth" as Melisandre put it, as this is the fate of all cultures that come to contact with more sopisticated civilizations. This is what happened to the First Men south of the Wall,even in the North, when the Andals came: they were assimilated, and the very few that didn't were marginalized (like the Vale mountain clans).



The Thenns are more advanced than the rest of the free folk: they forge (bronze), they have hierarchy and they have passed to patriarchy. Elements that position them in the upper barbarism/bronze age stage of societal evolution. They call themselves "the last of the First Men" and I think that this is supposed to mean that they still live exactly the way the First Men did at the time of the Andal invasion. But all the humans beyond the Wall are of First Men descend, so, why are the rest of the folk beyond the wall less "civilized" than that? Winterfell, a great castle, is supposed to be built at around the same time as the Wall, but the free folk cannot imagine to built a three storey tower... Did their society regress by living in isolation and poor and hard lands after they were trapped beyond the Wall? Could this be a reason why Ygritte hates the Wall so much? Or it could be just a trivial matter of asymetrical evolution, who knows...


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Shadow Cat Rivers, my impression why Ygritte cries when singing the Last of the Giants is this; the song is about a way of life that's disappearing. If the Wildlings lose, they'll become extinct. If they win, they'll become Kneelers.

I think Melisandre is quite sympathetic towards them, even as she understands this truth.

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Shadow Cat Rivers, my impression why Ygritte cries when singing the Last of the Giants is this; the song is about a way of life that's disappearing. If the Wildlings lose, they'll become extinct. If they win, they'll become Kneelers.

I think Melisandre is quite sympathetic towards them, even as she understands this truth.

When you think about it, that's quite an interesting bit of juxtaposition with everything else that's going on in the world. The Last of the Giants is one long lamentation about the slow degeneration of the old races (like the giants and the children of the forest) and, I think, of the old ways. Yet despite the fear of the Wildlings that their way is disappearing, magic is slowly seeping back in to the world and there's a sense that certain elements within Westeros and beyond are starting to reawaken to the old ways of doing things. Dany talks about not planting trees and becoming Aegon the Conqueror come again, Bran is slowly on his way to becoming a greenseer, and I think as Jon's story progresses, we see not only the sense of justice that Ned imbued in him, but a harshness too that's reminiscent of the way the purported old Kings of Winter did things.

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With regard to the frontier and pioneering, if I remember correctly, you are a citizen of the United States of A. the romance of the pioneer and the settler is part of your national myth. Its no surprise that you should find it appealing. It's interesting how GRRM is playing with the imagery and the ideas here in that in some ways the Wildlings are the settlers (free, independant, self-sufficent), in others the Indians (the Noble Savage, the barbarian other, the strong relationship with nature). Likewise the Night's Watch are in some ways the Indians - think Qhorin, but also the 7th cavalry, patroling the frontier keeping civilisation safe etc :dunno:

Yes, with the white cloak. I suppose for me it is not a symbol of Jaime's half heartedness, but of ambiguity. Had he been in Lannister Gold and Red the semiotics are that this is an act of rebellion, of a nobleman against the King. Had he been entirely in the White of a King's Guard then this is a deposition by the pratorian guard - an assertion that the Kingsguard has the right to judge and punish the King if he fails in his duty. By appearing in both it is not clear what he is saying I suppose. Looking at his orders to the Kingsguard later when he is lord Commander then I think there is a praetorian element to Jaime's thinking. The Kingsguard has independant morality and intelligence and should use these to guide his attitude towards the king and the king's orders. The kingsguard has the duty, implicitly, to protect the king from himself and his own worst instincts.

Apples. We always come back to apples. Temptation doesn't seem good enough. Discord isn't enough either. Rewards and heavenly promise. An archetypal fruit? There is more munching to be done here...

I agree entirely about the moral fibre. These are the moments that reveal the character and again Jon chooses mercy.

I don't know about plot gift. I mean Jon has to escape to get back to the Wall, I think the contrast between his feeling of loneilness, his fear of dying alone, and the fraternal love that leaps in and dismays the Thenns is a good one.

Yes I suppose Ygritte believes in a universal freedom while the Lords of Westeros would believe that they are free but those below them should not be :dunno:

I thought that Jon's thought "Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth...they were his joy and his despair" was an echo of Maester Aemon's "We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." in Jon VII AGOT.

It brings to mind Mormont saying "the things we love destroy us every time". Had Jon chosen to stay with Ygritte he likely would have died when Stannis came.

As for Jaime, in some ways he is to Jon what Gaara was to the titular character in Naruto, two sides of the same coin. Jon and Jaime are members of celibate institutions, and are met with conflicting choices. Jon's test with killing the old man brings to mind Jaime's choice when Bran finds him and Cersei copulating. Bran is an innocent, yet there was chance he would reveal what he saw, which would mean death for Jaime and Cersei, and Jaime decides to kill Bran. Jon is faced with a similar choice where if he refuses there is chance it could mean death for himself for not cooperating, but he chooses not to. Jaime decides to deal with the conflicting moral choices originally by taking the easy way out, and rejecting the honor culture and system of ethics in exchange for devotion to whatever is good for Cersei. Jon takes the higher, yet, harder road of dealing with these conflicting choices, and living with his decisions.

Also, there is something from the last chapter I would like to add

The King's Crown was the Cradle to hear her tell it

the Iron Victory came round the point and entered the holy bay called Nagga's Cradle [for the kingsmoot].

Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle

she [Cersei] had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight around his chest. When Jaime had discovered it, she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

The first two quotes connect cradles to crowns and monarchs. The third quote is foreshadowing for the deaths of Arianne Martell and Cersei with both of them dying crowned as queens. It is this later quote in AFfC that I think has bearing to this thread:

Catelyn Tully was a mouse or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle.

More foreshadowing for Jon as king.

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...In that, Jon is quite different. He struggles with his oaths as well, he's also preoccupied about his personal honour -in spite of what Qhorin told him about it, I think that he hasn't got over it, not really- but what matters most to him is IMO his sense of right and wrong. Once he's made the choice that he can live with, he's not that much interested about what people would say. After all, he has learned to live with the bastard label.

That to me is the great Jaime parallel. A sense of right and wrong that trumps any oath or order and a preparedness to act in accordance with that sense no matter what the consequences (not as per sparing Ygritte's live or helping Sam that he knows what the consequences might be entirely).

...Had the wildlings actually broken through the Wall, and established themselves in the North, I think their way of life would have become indistinguishable from that of the "Kneelers" within a generation or two.

That's what I imagine too. Isn't that what Jon is pushing the Wildlings towards with his settlement and marriage policy in ADWD too, but forgive me, I'm anticipating.

...The Thenns are more advanced than the rest of the free folk: they forge (bronze), they have hierarchy and they have passed to patriarchy. Elements that position them in the upper barbarism/bronze age stage of societal evolution. They call themselves "the last of the First Men" and I think that this is supposed to mean that they still live exactly the way the First Men did at the time of the Andal invasion. But all the humans beyond the Wall are of First Men descend, so, why are the rest of the folk beyond the wall less "civilized" than that? Winterfell, a great castle, is supposed to be built at around the same time as the Wall, but the free folk cannot imagine to built a three storey tower... Did their society regress by living in isolation and poor and hard lands after they were trapped beyond the Wall? Could this be a reason why Ygritte hates the Wall so much? Or it could be just a trivial matter of asymetrical evolution, who knows...

Lots of interesting stuff there, I agree that there is a sense of the contrasting lifestyles that you can look at anthropologically.

With regard to Winterfell my sense of it is that it grew organically, with different bits added or altered over hundreds of years. None of it is necessarily original. In its earliest days it may have looked like Craster's Keep, except that it was beside a Weirwood and some warm pools and a spring.

All the same though Maester Aemon describes the First Men as having bronze so it does seem odd that the mass of the wildlings have regressed. It could be that only the Thenns have settled in an area where there were deposits of tin and copper, but then it is strange that bronze didn't become the default material for tools through trade. Maybe Hardhome and Ibbsen from Ibben's idea of Craster's as farm to prduce free range humans for the white walkers is part of the answer - there is some presence or activity of something powerful to prevent higher levels of technology or more hierarchial social forms developing north of the Wall. But this is very speculative...

...I think as Jon's story progresses, we see not only the sense of justice that Ned imbued in him, but a harshness too that's reminiscent of the way the purported old Kings of Winter did things.

Yes that is an interesting point, there is a hardness to Jon in ADWD, but we'll get there when we get there and can discuss the possible reasons for that then. I'm not sure there is much harshness yet, though I suppose in the sense that he is conscious of not wanting to hear those stories of the lives and wishes of the wildlings he's with there is an awareness of wanting / needing to keep his distance. He's not a littlefinger to play at being your supporter until the time comes to put the knife in.

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With regard to Winterfell my sense of it is that it grew organically, with different bits added or altered over hundreds of years. None of it is necessarily original. In its earliest days it may have looked like Craster's Keep, except that it was beside a Weirwood and some warm pools and a spring.

Yes, I think this would be the explanation that makes most sense. On the other hand, the legend that Giants helped in building Winterfell reminds me of cyclopean walls like this and this - both made by "bronze" cultures. I imagine the oldest part of the granite walls (is it the inner or the outer? I don't remember) would look something like that.

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Theme Detection Alert! Theme Detected and Confirmed! Sex in Sight of the Gods.

Jon:

We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.

Jon seems to view his relationship with Ygritte as tainted by his ongoing (ordered) deception. His status as a bastard has predisposed him against "improper" relationships, and sees Sex in Sight of the Gods as a way of making the relationship "Legit". He realizes it can't really happen, though. (Did I get that right?)

Jaime: (In the Sept with Cersei where Joff lies in state)


"I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn't we do the same?

Jaime is sick of lies.

Dany:


"This night we must go outside, my lord," she told him, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man's life must be done beneath the open sky.

On her wedding night, also.

And how much do you want to bet that when Stannis and Mel were making shadowbabies, they did it in front of a fire.

Not terribly profound, I know, but worth pointing out (I hope).

Does Asha like sex on the beach? :drunk:

edit for spelling

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Samwell III ASOS

Overview

We move from rain to bitter cold in this part of ASOS. Sam is preceded by Catelyn and Robb en route to the Red Wedding and followed by Arya likewise going to her uncle's bloody wedding. All three chapters share the sense of “the best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry”. Here it's clear that Sam and Gilly are lost, moving slowly and low on food and as it turns out threatened by hostile wights. This is a fantastic chapter to parallel with Jon V, but sadly the posting format doesn't support columns.

Sam and Gilly arrive in an abandoned Wildling village. During the night they wake up in time to experience a Wight attack but then we see an “Answered prayer”.

Observations

  • We have another settlement centred around a weirwood. I think this and the tradition of castles having godswoods share a common origin back in first men days – ie a settlement based around a weirnet hub.
  • Sam's blisters. For me this is a nice way of talking about Sam's softness, that physically he is not hardy, but gentle born. His blisters are still making an appearance in Sam I AFFC and help to undermine the idea of him as a competent tough figure this contrasts nicely with the fact that:
  • Sam really deserves his nickname of slayer, here he gets rid of Unsmall Paul as far as I can tell with slightly more ease and a lot less warg assistance than the more typical hero figure Jon needed to kill the wight in AGOT. (Can we talk about killing wights I they are already dead?). This means that as of the end of ADWD Sam has the highest kill ratio against the creatures of Winter of any person so far.
  • The sense of cold is brought across well here with Sam's unwillingness to take off his gloves – which stands in contrast to Coldhands' black cold hands at the end of the chapter.
  • “Jon had searched the huts at Whitetree”. I like this little touch. Sam imitating Jon, remembering him in doing something that is almost ritualistic, or the memory brought back by the similar circumstances. The contrast implied in our imaginations of the ranging on its way north and now this couple coming south.

Analysis

Cultural Exchange

This chapter to my mind continues the theme of cultural exchange from Jon V. Again we have the wildling woman and the man from the south. The choice of Gilly creates a contrast with Ygritte's views on marriage. Craster has wives and knives. It shows that the Wilding freedom can result in the triumph of the strong and the abuse of the weak. However at the same time this chapter is rich in Sam's upbringing, also a story of the abuse of the weak (though the mother seems to have had a certain degree of power and influence in shaping family life – or possibly Tarly senior just couldn't be bothered until Sam appeared to be clearly incapable in his opinion.

We also have Sam introducing the southern gods to Gilly. These are, in theory at least, gods that are kind to children, watch for them and assist them. Thinking about it, both Sam and Gilly are themselves hardly more than children. But the suggestion is of a world where the weak are protected rather than abused.

Again there is a discussion about building and construction. The complexity of the Wall or for that matter towerhouses suggest the complexity of social organisation as well as the more complex skills that a realm of kneelers can produce through co-operation – each link in the chain having its own distinct and necessary role to play as compared with the monotonous world north of the Wall in which freedom requires everybody to master the same basic skill set.

Sam tells Gilly about “some place warm”. But note, he doesn't talk about a place that is naturally warm – like Dorne, instead he talks about the warmth of human conviviality, about enjoying human company in the hall of Castle Black. Its a slightly odd fantasy given that the Watch is meant to be celibate and as such leads on to Sam's dream.

Fathers and Sons and Noble Seats

If Jon's memories of The Ned and of Winterfell in Jon V provided a counterpoint to Ygritte's philosophy of freedom, Sam's memories of Horn Hill (another one for Butterbumps' collection of Erotic subtext?) and of Randyll Tarly can't be so clear cut. Randyll is a cross between ineffectual and a bully as a father. Sam does fall back on what he has learnt from his father at times (AGOT when they discover the wight is one moment, there's another in Sam I AFFC) but the memories are not positive. Sam is instead looking for an alternative way of being and perhaps he finds it in fraternity (Is the rallying call of the French Revolution the philosophical core of ASOIAF? Discuss.), perhaps then it makes sense that in his dream he feasts his brothers at Horn Hill before sleeping with Gilly – not supplanting his parents and repeating a pattern of top down authority in Freudian revolt but instead coming to grips with Gilly on a more equal footing. I'm struggling here – it all seems slightly incestuous. The milk suggests both a Freudian desire for maternal love but also Sam's deep need for nourishment and personal growth. On the other hand Gilly and her milk is what he can see, its perhaps unsurprising that they fill his erotic imagination.

There's a contrast in Jon's desire to make love before the gods and Sam putting love and brotherhood under the same roof. There is Jon's desire for open public lovemaking under the sky versus Sam dreaming of an enclosed private sphere. A place where he is free perhaps to be himself rather than defined by the names that others give him?

Answered Prayer


The leaves of the weirwood rustling softly, waving like a thousand blood red hands. Whether Jon's gods had heard him or not he could not say.

First off a couple of little observations. Sam is happy to refer to Jon's gods, while Jon himself refers to his Father's gods rather than his own. Next – a thousand blood red hands – which takes on a strange resonance in the light of our discussion of the bloody hands theme set out in Maester Aemon's conversation with Jon in AGOT Jon VIII. Also I recalled somebody (can't remember who) suggesting that the Weirwood represented both Fire (red leaves) and Ice (white bark) which I thought was an interesting take, an embodied synthesis of the opposition suggested in the idea of the song of two irreconcilable elements. But anyway...

Well this is a passage in dialogue with an earlier part of the book, Osha's conversation with Bran, Bran III AGOT


“Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods.”

Osha studied him. “You asked them and they're answering. Open your ears, listen, you'll hear.”

Bran listened. “It's only the wind,” he said after a moment, uncertain. “The leaves are rustling.”

“Who do you think sends the winds, if not the gods?...They see you boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back...The old gods have no power in the south”

She then goes on to explain that this is because the Weirwoods are gone from the south. Finally towards the end of this Sam chapter “He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know.”

(The language Coldhands speaks in when he kills his Elk is also a tongue that Bran does not recognise in ADWD).

It's interesting that this comes after Sam's onion experience which is in dialogue with Melisandre and Davos' onion scene in ACOK. Sam is a kind of religious hub, or philosophical interchange, interesting that he is sent off to the Citadel via experiences of oath breaking and oath keeping in Braavos and at sea.

Well we are left with two, possibly interconnected, possibilities. That Coldhands and the ravens ad been tracking Sam and finally caught up with him in this village, or that Sam's prayer to the gods for help was, unusually for ASOIAF, answered.

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I think we are given a clue in who is helping out Sam:



Ravens! They were in the weirwood hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white branches



That image is the sigil of House Blackwood, the family of BR's mother



Sam's relationship with Gilly does bring to mind Samwise Gamgee's relationship with Rosy, who like Gilly, is named for a flower



a bowl of venison stewed with onions



Venison is deer meat, and I think this foreshadows Stannis, whose sigil is a stag, and Davos, the onion knight, coming to the Wall



Sam manages to be a man in this chapter. He never leaves Gilly's side, and defends her from wighted Small Paul.



It was easier to follow a game trail than to struggle through the brush, easier to circle a ridge instead of climbing it



The short, direct path isn't always the surest or safest path as demonstrated later with the path to the QI in AFfC. We later see this thinking when Davos tells Stannis to save the realm to win the throne, and I think we will later see with Jon.


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Sam tells Gilly about “some place warm”. But note, he doesn't talk about a place that is naturally warm – like Dorne, instead he talks about the warmth of human conviviality, about enjoying human company in the hall of Castle Black. Its a slightly odd fantasy given that the Watch is meant to be celibate and as such leads on to Sam's dream.

Fathers and Sons and Noble Seats

If Jon's memories of The Ned and of Winterfell in Jon V provided a counterpoint to Ygritte's philosophy of freedom, Sam's memories of Horn Hill (another one for Butterbumps' collection of Erotic subtext?) and of Randyll Tarly can't be so clear cut. Randyll is a cross between ineffectual and a bully as a father. Sam does fall back on what he has learnt from his father at times (AGOT when they discover the wight is one moment, there's another in Sam I AFFC) but the memories are not positive.

I think the bolded is a very insightful point.

I was struck by the vague parallel between his dream and the nightmare he awakens to. He dreams of a feast surrounded by his brothers and awakens to his undead brothers looking to feast and eventually being feasted on by the ravens. Jon, Jaime, and Theon all have dreams (nightmares?) of confronting the dead, while Sam dreams a fairly mundane "idyllic" dream of the living and awakens to find the dead.

Other than the twist of awakening into a nightmare, Sam's dream is telling. He wishes for his father's sword and all the approval of being his son that it implies but does not wish to occupy the lord's bedroom. On another level everything Sam dreams of is the peaceful end state after having won glory and not the glory itself-- Heartsbane cutting a roast seems to imply its normal cutting duties have passed. Despite a good number of those brothers having been cruel to Sam he still dreams of all of them being welcome in his home and in bright colors free of their black obligations.

Is the raven that speaks to him Mormont's? I think so. Small Paul is the one that wanted Mormont's raven after Chett's plot which I think may be a bit of a clue for us. His eating unSmall Paul while on his shoulder also foreshadows the raven assault at the end of the chapter.

perhaps he finds it in fraternity (Is the rallying call of the French Revolution the philosophical core of ASOIAF? Discuss.),

I thought the rallying call of the French Revolution was "Oh crap, no food." There might be an Ides of Marsh parallel to the French Revolution-- "Oh crap, no food", kill leader complete with mob violence, justify in writing after the fact. We can only hope Marsh has Septon Cellador speak before all the executions or the Reign of Terror parallel is going to be ugly...but we're not quite there yet.

Answered Prayer

First off a couple of little observations. Sam is happy to refer to Jon's gods, while Jon himself refers to his Father's gods rather than his own. Next – a thousand blood red hands – which takes on a strange resonance in the light of our discussion of the bloody hands theme set out in Maester Aemon's conversation with Jon in AGOT Jon VIII. Also I recalled somebody (can't remember who) suggesting that the Weirwood represented both Fire (red leaves) and Ice (white bark) which I thought was an interesting take, an embodied synthesis of the opposition suggested in the idea of the song of two irreconcilable elements. But anyway...

Well this is a passage in dialogue with an earlier part of the book, Osha's conversation with Bran, Bran III AGOT

She then goes on to explain that this is because the Weirwoods are gone from the south. Finally towards the end of this Sam chapter “He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know.”

(The language Coldhands speaks in when he kills his Elk is also a tongue that Bran does not recognise in ADWD).

It's interesting that this comes after Sam's onion experience which is in dialogue with Melisandre and Davos' onion scene in ACOK. Sam is a kind of religious hub, or philosophical interchange, interesting that he is sent off to the Citadel via experiences of oath breaking and oath keeping in Braavos and at sea.

Well we are left with two, possibly interconnected, possibilities. That Coldhands and the ravens ad been tracking Sam and finally caught up with him in this village, or that Sam's prayer to the gods for help was, unusually for ASOIAF, answered.

This makes three for three Sam chapters with "answered prayers." In the first chapter it is Small Paul who answers his prayer for mercy. Last chapter he prayed for Gilly to not have a boy which wasn't specifically answered but the underlying wish of her child be spared the fate of being born a boy was. He then wants to pray for Mormont but can only think to say "mother have mercy" just before Gilly's mother does have mercy on Sam, Gilly and her grandchild by providing the horses and the inspiration to escape. As awful as the thing that happen in Sam's chapters have been and despite the constant foreboding his prayers seem to get answered.

Great connections here with the bloody hands, the language, and Sam as the commentary hub.

I think we are given a clue in who is helping out Sam:

Ravens! They were in the weirwood hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white branches

That image is the sigil of House Blackwood, the family of BR's mother

Sam's relationship with Gilly does bring to mind Samwise Gamgee's relationship with Rosy, who like Gilly, is named for a flower

a bowl of venison stewed with onions

Venison is deer meat, and I think this foreshadows Stannis, whose sigil is a stag, and Davos, the onion knight, coming to the Wall

Sam manages to be a man in this chapter. He never leaves Gilly's side, and defends her from wighted Small Paul.

It was easier to follow a game trail than to struggle through the brush, easier to circle a ridge instead of climbing it

The short, direct path isn't always the surest or safest path as demonstrated with the path to the QI. We later see this thinking when Davos tells Stannis to save the realm to win the throne, and I think we will later see with Jon.

Nice LotR naming parallel.

I took the thousand blood stained hands line and the Mormont's raven as the Bloodraven clues but the House Blackwood sigil is a great find. Love the path metaphor and the Quiet Isle connection is just a perfect supporting passage.

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Nice work as usual Lummel!



What I find interesting between the Sam and Gilly Exchange is that their footing is as victims of the extreme sides of their own societies. Gilly’s sufferings are a byproduct of the “freedom” enjoyed north of the Wall, while Sam of the expectations inherent to being “part of a chain”, proving the dual aspect of the chain- as both an element of unison as of constriction.



Looking at both Cat and Sam’s together is interesting how one help to expose why Sam became the victim of his Father. When she and Robb were standing in front of Tristifer’s she tells the story of how his kingdom failed after his death:





The fifth Tristifer was not his equal and soon the kingdom was lost, and then the castle, and last of all the line. …


His heir failed him…





Not that am excusing Randyll but I think his treatment of Sam is not a product of simple cruelty or lack of restraints to execute it , much like Craster’s, but born out of a necessity to safeguard his legacy and that of those who came before him. On a side note, Sam’s focus and complaints on his blisters and cramps, brings Tyrion to my mind, another son who failed under the Father’s eye.



In comparing Sam with Jon, it strikes me that this might be one of those instances, where Jon’s bastardy comes at handy to analyze the world around him, even without him knowing. Jon is a character very much defined by his duality. He’s a bastard and yet the son of a High Lord, a brother of the NW who rode and fraternized with wildings, etc… In short, this sort of state where he is neither entirely part of the chain, much like Sam, but not necessarily born with the expectations of being a “link within a chain”, unlike Sam, is what gives him the tools to not being defined by it and what makes him the ideal person to bridge the difference between those South and North of the Wal, but I do not want to get too far ahead.



An example of this is this rather snobby, for lack of a better word, Sam’s thought which I found very striking:



Besides, he was a Tarly of Horn Hill, he could never wed a wilding




It strikes me because for all his very valid objections to his relationship with Ygritte, I can’t think of a time where Jon considered himself as in a station above her. Even after everything he endured out of his Father's expectations of him, Sam is still being defined by them in some very basic leves.




@Fire Eater, nice catch on the Blackwood reference!


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...It was easier to follow a game trail than to struggle through the brush, easier to circle a ridge instead of climbing it

The short, direct path isn't always the surest or safest path as demonstrated with the path to the QI. We later see this thinking when Davos tells Stannis to save the realm to win the throne, and I think we will later see with Jon.

That is a very interesting point, it seems to be true of a lot of POVs. Perhaps we should be suspicious when things do seem to run from A to B and think that they probably won't work out well in the end. It is certainly true of Sam because if they had been ono track for Castle Black they would have got caught up in The Mance's horde rather than getting through the Black Gate.

...Other than the twist of awakening into a nightmare, Sam's dream is telling. He wishes for his father's sword and all the approval of being his son that it implies but does not wish to occupy the lord's bedroom. On another level everything Sam dreams of is the peaceful end state after having won glory and not the glory itself-- Heartsbane cutting a roast seems to imply its normal cutting duties have passed. Despite a good number of those brothers having been cruel to Sam he still dreams of all of them being welcome in his home and in bright colors free of their black obligations...

This makes three for three Sam chapters with "answered prayers." ...

What's this, no love for Liberte, egalite, fraternite ? :crying: I like that you picked up on the bright colours that the men are wearing at the feast. I t suggests something like a marriage - but as per Winterfellian the bride is hidden out of snobbishness (yet Sam accepts the lower class men as his brothers, so some complexity here), but definitely that they are free of their oaths, free of death and the symbolism of always being clad in black. The sword used for peaceful ends - Joffrey's sword is used to slice the wedding pie in ASOS and nobody looks askance at this, so the idea of using the sword to slice the roast (how big is this roast?) mayhaps isn't that strange or maybe it is a transformation from war to peace, the sword symbolises authority not just violence.

But again - the dream shows some place warm as somewhere socially warm, friendly, accepting and celebratory.

So there's a trend then of Sam having his prayers answered, well isn't that interesting. Does this mean he is a righteous man? He certainly seems to inspire Jon to be better on two occasions - thinking of Jon arranging things for Sam in AGOT and Sam's view that Jon has a role to save Gilly in ACOK.

...What I find interesting between the Sam and Gilly Exchange is that their footing is as victims of the extreme sides of their own societies. Gilly’s sufferings are a byproduct of the “freedom” enjoyed north of the Wall, while Sam of the expectations inherent to being “part of a chain”, proving the dual aspect of the chain- as both an element of unison as of constriction.

...

Not that am excusing Randyll but I think his treatment of Sam is not a product of simple cruelty or lack of restraints to execute it , much like Craster’s, but born out of a necessity to safeguard his legacy and that of those who came before him. On a side note, Sam’s focus and complaints on his blisters and cramps, brings Tyrion to my mind, another son who failed under the Father’s eye...

The thing I always think about Randyll is that if he was motivated by a concern for his legacy then he seems to be over reacting to the reality of Westeros that we see. There are a variety of lords, few are blood up to their elbows types born of savagery and hardness, you don't have to spend your time constantly in the saddle hitting people with your sword, there are other modes of ruling which by and large seem successful. I'm more of the view that Randyll can't stand Samwell because he feels that it reflects badly on him, shows him to be weak and this drives his behaviour towards Sam. I think it feeds both into a discussion of ideas of masculinity and authority in Westeros but also in to that classic of Fathers and Sons - Tyrion is an apt comparison, but we can probably throw a lot of characters in there either for trying to live up to a certain real or false belief of what their father was or trying to escape from his shadow.

Sam and Jon as sons is a nice contrast. Sam is the rejected son, Jon is the opposite somebody accepted and treated as a legitimate son. I very much like your point about the snobbishness, the paternal legacy comes through in different ways for both of them.

Good point about Sam and Gilly as relative losers in their societies and keen to adopt the good from each others cultures while Jon and Ygritte are relative winners keen to uphold and defend the values of their cultures.

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The thing I always think about Randyll is that if he was motivated by a concern for his legacy then he seems to be over reacting to the reality of Westeros that we see. There are a variety of lords, few are blood up to their elbows types born of savagery and hardness, you don't have to spend your time constantly in the saddle hitting people with your sword, there are other modes of ruling which by and large seem successful. I'm more of the view that Randyll can't stand Samwell because he feels that it reflects badly on him, shows him to be weak and this drives his behaviour towards Sam. I think it feeds both into a discussion of ideas of masculinity and authority in Westeros but also in to that classic of Fathers and Sons - Tyrion is an apt comparison, but we can probably throw a lot of characters in there either for trying to live up to a certain real or false belief of what their father was or trying to escape from his shadow.

I see what you are saying, the thing is I tend one as connected to the other. The power trapping is an inherent part of the whole legacy issue, especially in the South. Not that his makes Randyll's behavior any excusable.

If Jon's memories of The Ned and of Winterfell in Jon V provided a counterpoint to Ygritte's philosophy of freedom, Sam's memories of Horn Hill (another one for Butterbumps' collection of Erotic subtext?)

I meant to ask before, about the bold part. ?? :dunce:

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Oh I was referring to the critical analysis of the homoerotic subtextual paradigm thread that Butterbumps! started, although Horn Hill suggests more of a general priapic thrust, or a simple geological erection rather than anything necessarily homoerotic, although on the other hand Randyll Tarly does spend an awful lot of time with his huntsmen and is terribly uncomfortable with feminine things - one does wonder if he is overcompensating :laugh:


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This is a strange chapter from a religious viewpoint. Gilly was raised by Craster, who worshiped the Cold Gods (the Others). She understandably has rejected that religion, and asks Sam to tell her about the Faith of the Seven. He sings a song describing six of the Seven, leaving out the Stranger. Sam, of course, has rejected the Seven in favor of the Old Golds. His prayer to the Old Gods may have played a part in their rescue from minions of the Cold Gods. The rescuer, Coldhands, although an agent of the Old Gods, bears an uncanny resemblance to the Stranger, with his hidden face and, well, deadness.



I'm not really sure what to make of it all. Perhaps the lesson for Sam is that things that seem irreconcilably different (like the religions of the Seven and the Old Gods, or his old life in the Reach and his new life on the Wall) have common elements, and he can mix and match as he sees fit.



(Mellisandre would no doubt tell them that they should have known that the night was dark and full of terrors, and it was all their own fault for letting their nightfire burn low.)



Many people have personal rituals they perform to get themselves in the proper state of mind to face adversity, various superstitious rites or ceremonies they use to get themselves ready for battle. Sam has found one. He wets himself. Then he can do something brave. It's only weird if it doesn't work.



ETA: grammar (added some)


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Speaking of homoeroticism, in my mind Randyl Tarly is identified as Colonel Fitts from American Beauty. Even in his nasty rape comment to Brienne, I see a projection of his own sexual fantasies and a man that is so self-suppressed that even in his fantasies he wants a way to deny responsibility for his hidden desires.



On-topic, I think that Sam's line that a Tarly could not mary a wildling is meant as he wouldn't be allowed to, not as himself finding a wildling girl too lowborn for him. Sam's wishes from life, as expressed by his dream, are simple and beautiful. Peace, friendship, a loving family. He dreams of sleeping with Gilly not in the lord's room - his father's room, the room of a cold and unloving person - but in the room he shared wormth and companionship with his sisters, feelings that are brought back to him by being with Gilly.



In general, I think that Sam is very much mirroring Arya. Their respective characteristics would be the "ideal" characteristics for the societal role reserved for the opposite sex, but a disaster for the sex they were born, but both, in spite of this and inspite of the pressure, are fine with being a man/a girl, they just can't/don't want to change who they are. One is more passive about it, the other more rebellious but at the end it is the same for both.


The families are also put to contrast: Sam was seriously abused in the attempt to change him, while Arya got away with some scolding.


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The parallels to Jon are worth a closer look. The fact that Sam is making his way to Castle Black with a Wildling woman who wants to be his wife is similar enough to Jon/Ygritte to explore, but I'd like to focus on Sam's emulation of Jon that Lummel pointed out.



It was Sam's idea to take Gilly and he originally went to Jon to ask him to take her. Jon wants to take her but declines. He feels ashamed for saying "no" but still refuses to eat from Craster's board. The reason he gives to Sam for not being able to take her is that Mormont wouldn't allow it.



Last chapter Sam initially declines to take Gilly at the end. He needs to be asked by Gilly's mother much like Sam initially asked Jon to take her. Like Jon, Sam initially refuses and gives Mormont as the reason. When Jon first meets Gilly he recalls his sister Sansa and tells her that her name is pretty. Gilly also makes Sam recall his sisters. Sam wounds his hand failing to start a fire while Jon wounded his hand successfully starting one. They also both express a reluctance to take their gloves off related to their wounds. There are a lot of little Jon parallels that help paint a picture of Sam stepping into Jon's role-- or at least the role Sam wanted Jon to play.



I think a case can be made that Jon is a foster father figure for Sam. Jon is filling the role here for Sam that we see Ned do for Jon.





Answered Prayer



First off a couple of little observations. Sam is happy to refer to Jon's gods, while Jon himself refers to his Father's gods rather than his own.





If Jon is a foster father figure are both cases referring to a father's gods? Are these more a case of young men unsure of their own internal mettle and looking to the untested lessons of their fathers like a matter of faith rather than a religious belief commentary? Not sure of the answer myself. I seem to recall Jon starts to refer to the Old Gods as his own at some point and I wonder if the timing will coincide with embracing his internal self confidence.


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This is a strange chapter from a religious viewpoint. Gilly was raised by Craster, who worshiped the Cold Gods (the Others). She understandably has rejected that religion, and asks Sam to tell her about the Faith of the Seven. He sings a song describing six of the Seven, leaving out the Stranger. Sam, of course, has rejected the Seven in favor of the Old Golds. His prayer to the Old Gods may have played a part in their rescue from minions of the Cold Gods. The rescuer, Coldhands, although an agent of the Old Gods, bears an uncanny resemblance to the Stranger, with his hidden face and, well, deadness...

Yeah Coldhands is an Stranger alright :laugh: I kind of thought that the two are swapping cultures. They've had such a bad time as victims of and losers out in their own cultures that they are keen to adopt something else that gives them a chance of a fresh or better start :dunno:

Speaking of homoeroticism, in my mind Randyl Tarly is identified as Colonel Fitts from American Beauty. Even in his nasty rape comment to Brienne, I see a projection of his own sexual fantasies and a man that is so self-suppressed that even in his fantasies he wants a way to deny responsibility for his hidden desires...

:laugh: yes I also see Tarly senior as being a very repressed individual. I can see Sam and Arya as mirror images, I think there is hope in Jon and Aemon's conversation in AGOT about the links in a Maester's chain - ie that a wise person can make use of disparate talents to the benefit of everybody, while trying to squeeze everybody into the same narrow mould doesn't work out well. There is a call there for the leader to be about all wise, or at least prepared to listen to those who are and take a broader view.

It's interesting coming back to this cross cultural conversation in the light of Daenerys' chat with Xaro in ADWD as Butterbumps! was saying. Both Ygritte and Jon are quite well able to articulate the strengths and values of their own views/societies while Daenerys really struggles to put her feelings and experience into words she's had neither the advantages of freedom since childhood nor castle raised education and is trying to work things out for herself without helpful analogies from Maesters or Mother's tales :dunno:

I like your take there on the childhood bed as representing a warmth and loving place for Sam as opposed to the Parental Bed. Maybe there is something optimistic in that image, Sam finding, knowing a comfortable place, while for Tyrion there is that sense I feel that he is going to step into Tywin's place.

...If Jon is a foster father figure are both cases referring to a father's gods? Are these more a case of young men unsure of their own internal mettle and looking to the untested lessons of their fathers like a matter of faith rather than a religious belief commentary? Not sure of the answer myself. I seem to recall Jon starts to refer to the Old Gods as his own at some point and I wonder if the timing will coincide with embracing his internal self confidence.

Hadn't noticed that the parallels between the two were that precise - good spot there! So there is a kind of repetition with variation here, both have to be pushed into doing the right thing. But if Tarly wanted Jon to play the role of a knight or a king on account of being the son of The Stark and brother of The King O'The North what does it tells us now that it is Tarly himself who comes to play that role? We know that some knights are dark and full of terror so his fear needn't disqualify him, particularly given The Ned's lesson to Bran - Bran I AGOT, I suppose from a heroic role. Is GRRM telling us something about heroism? I suppose this links to the LOTR parallel Samwell Gamage=Samwise Tarly ( ;) ), heroism in unexpected places?

I don't know if Jon is an ersatz father for Jon, doesn't Jon call him brother and don't we have the scene to come that repeats the snow in the hair moment of Robb and Jon's parting. But then I'm still wedded to the idea of Fraternity. The functional difference between an elder brother (or Elder Brother?) and a father figure might not be so great.

Let's look out then for the moment when first Jon refers to the old gods as his own, we haven't got that far yet it seems.

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