The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[Maia]

Great analysis Butterbumps! I'd just like to mention that I don't agree that Tywin necessarily intended to betray the Boltons and that his "gifts were poisoned", apart from fakeness of Arya, of course, but then Boltons seemed to be aware of that.

Tywin never promised Winterfell to the Boltons before Tyrion got condemned for regicide and Sansa disappeared and he never promised Tyrion the title of Warden of the North and/or paramountship. It was more "make certain that not just one path, but _all_ paths lead to victory".

If Boltons failed to subdue the North - not unlikely, since they were a House on the brink of extinction, with legitimzed bastard as an only heir and tarnished by their involvement in the Red Wedding - then Tyrion and Sansa could have been plan B.

If they were, then Tyrion and Sansa at Winterfell would have been the check on new paramounts of the North and reminder to Boltons to remain on the straight and the narrow. Etc.

We’ve already seen a number of accounts of cooperation between the Watch and Winterfell in terms of taking out a common threat, as well as various cases in which the kings of Winterfell were moved to intercede when a LC went rogue, as with the Night’s King. To these, Benjen adds further accounts of the Watch’s attempted abuses of power, and easy rectification from Winterfell:

Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other?

To me, it shows cooperation between Winterfell and NW, yes, and Winterfell's regulatory function when NW ran rogue... but it also demonstrates why those restrictive vows were necessary and how without them the Watch would have quickly degenerated into just another feodal lordship, mired in typical concerns of such and certainly not enjoying any support from the rest of Westeros. Which would have lead to them being even less equal to the task of defense against both Others and wildlings than the current NW is/was.

After all, look at all these feodal lordships who would have been the first to suffer had the wildlings broken through and butchered NW - the Umbers, the Mountain clans, the Karstarks. None of them showed up to defend the Wall, because they had their own priorities. None of them reacted to news about the wights, either.

A hamstrung Watch, with no cooperation from the realm, facing an enemy from the South (all on the eve of an Other invasion, no less) is completely uncharted territory.

Yes, and the one that demonstrates the weak link in NW's overeliance on the Starks and Winterfell, no?

Because here were have the case of a Stark who happened to decide that his southern interests were more important, even though he was well aware of impending wildling invasion and poor state of NW.

Of a Stark who completely neglected all the opportunities to increase NW numbers through prisoners of war until he needed to bribe NW for his own purposes. A Stark who was ready to deliver a mortal blow to NW by naming a black brother his heir, in defiance of all laws and traditions that have governed it for millenia and ensured it's continued existence.

Which makes me wonder about historical accounts of Winterfell meddling in NW affairs. Was it always justified? Were there cases of harmful interference, of NW pushing back against a corrupt Stark? And how did it go when there were several kingdoms in the North and the Starks weren't the most proximate major power to the Wall?

Jon’s assessment, that riding out to meet a southern enemy is the best solution, anticipates his strategy at the end of Dance.

Yes indeed and this detail made me look at Jon's strategy in ADwD more favorably as well as appreciate GRRM's use of foreshadowing yet again. Of course, with 50 rangers he would have had the often mentioned advantage of discipline and superior equipment on his side and IIRC only 1:2 odds. Or were there more than 100 wildling raiders?

That the

King’s

Tower offers the best vantage point for dealing with the various threats to the Watch (and by extension, the threats to the realm) seems to anticipate the crisis that becomes evident in DwD: given the overall unprecedented hamstrung conditions, a Lord Commander might not have enough reach to enable the Watch to perform, but a

King

might.

OTOH, as demonstrated by lack of support from the King in the North and his lords, a king could also be easily distracted by other concerns and dangers to his realm.

Yes, there is some symbolism there, but IMHO it is not that straightforward. Royal support is important, but so is being on the spot when the hell breaks loose, which is LC's job ;).

100% agree with everything else, though.

[Ragnorak]

Nice work Butterbumps!

Many apologies for the delay. As Lum mentioned, I got extremely behind due to workload that followed a holiday I was out of town for. I’m really sorry guys—thanks for being patient.

No worries, it isn't like this is a Stannis reread where we'd have to burn you alive to wake your posting from stone. (Which is good because that heathen Lummel would probably name me the second King and I'm allergic to being burned alive.) Welcome back.

Yes! the Old Gods / New gods / My father's gods / my old gods! Ragnorak pointed that out to me earlier. I think we should underline that this Jon speaking to somebody else. Later in the same chapter he still uses 'my father's gods' in his internal monologue. Also at this point he is taking the role of the grizzled veteran, the grognard talking to the boy. There is an element then of role playing. The public persona is prepared to talk of my old gods while privately he still doesn't want to displace The Ned. These are his still Father's gods (irony if L+R=J presumably intended ?). On the other hand I suggested to Ragnorak and I think earlier in this series that the old gods had to be experienced. Jon now has had experiences that might be influencing his faith/perception of reality - he has had a wolf dream, he has witnessed the dramatic intervention of a direwolf into his life, he has seen the stuff of old nan's tales in the flesh...

Just a small point, the father's gods comes earlier in the same chapter not later.

Give me one clean shot at the Magnar of Thenn, he prayed to his father’s gods. The Magnar at least was a foe that he could hate. Give me Styr.

Come's before

“What gods do you pray to?” Jon asked Satin.
“The Seven,” the boy from Oldtown said.
“Pray, then,” Jon told him. “Pray to your new gods, and I’ll pray to my old ones.” It all turned here.

The old/young or maybe experienced/inexperienced angle strikes me and I do think the internal monologue vs. external dialogue matters. It is worth noting though that I think we picked up on this theme back at Whitetree village in Clash with:

Jon said, “My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.”
“My father believed the same,” said the Old Bear. “Let me have a look at that skull.”

There we had only external dialogue, but also the older/younger angle and they both refer to beliefs of their father's gods. Noteworthy that we picked up the theme with a Lord Commander and his squire and see the first reference to Jon claiming the gods as his own with the one who he'll pick as his squire once he's LC. Satin will convert to the old gods too.

We see Jon reflecting on a lot of the Ned's lessons as he's done before but I think this is the chapter that completes his transition into "veteran." He now has a collection of experiences that are his own so that Ned's lessons can now start to become Jon's lessons to someone else. (Like he can talk of Donal Noye's commander's voice in a battle of his own without needing to parrot his father's tales.) He's internalized the father's lessons and made them a part of himself. I suspect a similar dynamic is at play with the father's gods/my gods. Ironically the old gods are Jon's in ways that they never were Ned's given his nature as a warg.

I really appreciate the way Martin fleshes out minor characters even when they're not on the page. Three Finger Hobb here is a great example with his sending food up to the men in the towers. The buns are still hot; there's fresh butter, raisins, pine nuts, some dried apple (this meal reminded me of Bran and the Liddle in the cave) and later it is his "best mutton." Their chaplain really sucks but the Watch has a great cook.

The food delivery also ties in with Lummel's thoughts on Jon making as many friends as enemies. Hobb obviously believes in Jon's loyalty and shows it with food-- an extremely important gesture given our author. Those like Rast would have hated Jon no matter what. Others, especially those new members who have almost no experience with Jon, I imagine might have an emotional blame the messenger reaction-- dark wings, dark words. In the aftermath of this attack though I would imagine most would be more positively inclined toward Jon. The outcome of this attack without Jon's warning should be pretty clear even to Owen the Oaf. Hypothetical cloak turning north of the Wall doesn't seem like it would matter much to someone relative to not being slaughtered in one's sleep because of his warning. The idea of "betrayal" by members of the Watch was also not unique to Jon on that doomed ranging. Mormont was killed by betrayal as well and that tale reached Castle Black along with Jon's. That betrayal offers contrast with Jon's tale as far as public perception among his brothers.

I also wonder what people think about the lack of Ghost. Ghost seemed to be perceived as a supernatural counterweight for the Watch to the wights and Others. The current threat is the Wildlings but Ghost's absence must have been noticed.

[Lummel]

...Which makes me wonder about historical accounts of Winterfell meddling in NW affairs. Was it always justified? Were there cases of harmful interference, of NW pushing back against a corrupt Stark? And how did it go when there were several kingdoms in the North and the Starks weren't the most proximate major power to the Wall?

Yes indeed and this detail made me look at Jon's strategy in ADwD more favorably as well as appreciate GRRM's use of foreshadowing yet again. Of course, with 50 rangers he would have had the often mentioned advantage of discipline and superior equipment on his side and IIRC only 1:2 odds. Or were there more than 100 wildling raiders?...

Aren't there /weren't there 120 raiders?

Whether the meddling was always justified - well that all depends on your perspective doesn't? North or south of the Wall, on top of the king's tower or at its foot ;) Really we don't know, we only get one angle on these stories. From my perspective the point is to show us that Winterfell has precedents for intervening in the Watch's affairs while the Watch has apparently no precedents for intervening in politics south of the Wall. According to the legend it was the Stark in Winterfell and the King beyond the Wall who combined to bring down the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Watch so there is one answer to what happened before the Starks came to lead a single kingdom of the north.

...No worries, it isn't like this is a Stannis reread where we'd have to burn you alive to wake your posting from stone. (Which is good because that heathen Lummel would probably name me the second King and I'm allergic to being burned alive.) Welcome back...

How come I get to be the heathen? :crying: :laugh:

OK, sorry about mixing the gods usage up. I like your point that Jon is transitioning to being a mentor here and even a role model for Satin. In this chapter and the next we see Jon becoming a leader.

Don't know about Ghost, he was mentioned I believe in the previous chapter and is remembered by Jon in the next chapter. Ghost is rather two pronged in that he demonstrates Jon's specialness but at the same time the alien nature of Jon. For the rangers the warg nature is something they can accept and value, but for others it could be seen as something monstrous, then again if you are a Northerner Ghost is a walking Stark sigil - so a very strong signal of what Jon is and what he represents. :dunno:

[Ragnorak]

How come I get to be the heathen? :crying: :laugh:

So you'd rather be the King that gets burned alive instead of the heathen? Is this a British title thing?

I think Noye asked about Ghost last chapter but I couldn't infer anything in the way of a reaction to Ghost this chapter. I was thinking back on Ghost in GoT where Mormont says he wants the wolf on the ranging, the gods sent him etc. I imagine the chapter he returns will be more enlightening in this regard.

Some random thoughts...

I noted the battle as a dance in Jon's internal monologue but don't have any clear thoughts on it yet. "None of that mattered. The dance has moved on, he thought"

Satin calls Jon "my lord" and Owen calls him "Lord Snow" in what seems to be sincere respect rather than Thorne's initial intent with the label.

Regarding thinking of Satin as a whore at the end, I read that as a form of acceptance. "Born in a brothel" is a bit of a euphemism where as "whore" is an outright acknowledgement of what he was.

The wildlings had never been his friends, he had not allowed them to be his friends

Implicit in that is the realization that they could have been his friends. I'm reminded a bit of Ned to Bran on justice

you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.

The choice of fighting the Wildlings is similar-- an emotional distance but not detachment. We see him fail in this with Ygritte on one end where he looks away or can't swing the sword and maybe Styr on the other end where he seeks to take pleasure in the killing. War is not justice but his mindset seems similar.

His bow is Dornish yew but nothing strikes me there.

I looked at dreamwine references to see if we got ingredients but nothing struck me. For what it is worth here's our dreamwine drinkers to date

Hoster Tully (for the pain as he's dying)

Sansa (after the Joffrey dress ripping trauma)

Tyrion (after the Blackwater)

Jaime (while travelling from Harrenhal to KL)

Joffrey (on Tywin's order after the "feared Aerys" outburst)

Great analysis Butterbumps! I'd just like to mention that I don't agree that Tywin necessarily intended to betray the Boltons and that his "gifts were poisoned", apart from fakeness of Arya, of course, but then Boltons seemed to be aware of that.

Tywin never promised Winterfell to the Boltons before Tyrion got condemned for regicide and Sansa disappeared and he never promised Tyrion the title of Warden of the North and/or paramountship. It was more "make certain that not just one path, but _all_ paths lead to victory".

If Boltons failed to subdue the North - not unlikely, since they were a House on the brink of extinction, with legitimzed bastard as an only heir and tarnished by their involvement in the Red Wedding - then Tyrion and Sansa could have been plan B.

If they were, then Tyrion and Sansa at Winterfell would have been the check on new paramounts of the North and reminder to Boltons to remain on the straight and the narrow. Etc.

In Arya's last chapter in Clash and in Tyrion's first chapter in Storm we learn Roose has ordered men to Duskendale. That move was part of his role in the whole Red Wedding plot. Roose must have been promised something in order to fully commit to the Red Wedding by ordering the Duskendale move. That's a point of no return for Roose. Paramount of the North seems very likely since I doubt he'd consent to betray the Starks to be someone else's bannerman. That gains him nothing he doesn't already have. Sansa must have been accounted for in some way in the negotiations since she isn't given as a bride and "Arya" was. Roose would have to have a reason to knowingly accept a fake Stark when a real single Sansa with a better claim than even a real Arya was available in KL. Some of what Roose got in the end (Paramount, legit Ramsay, Winterfell, "Arya") had to have been promised to some degree of specificity before he fully committed. I suspect Paramount (since its the only step up for House Bolton) and at least some agreement in principle on the disposition of Sansa given that her marriage is a fairly obvious and dire threat to any non-Stark House raised to Lords of the North and she wasn't part of the deal.

I've been turning a couple Watch thoughts over in my head. Prior to the Iron Throne the LC wasn't really subject to the rule of any King in terms of owing fealty though there seems to be a policing distinction or tradition from Winterfell. The Watch was in reality separate from the seven different kingdoms or the hundreds of kingdoms if you go back thousands of years. The "taking part" was probably far more of a risk when there were hundreds of kingdoms and the manpower of the Watch would have been formidable compared to a petty King's. 100 Kingdoms puts each kingdom at about 1/14 the strength of a the current major Houses. Now the Watch is geographically isolated so that they can pragmatically only take part in the North. When Skaagos, Bear Island, etc. were separate kingdoms or not under the Starks there was more of a possibility of them getting involved. So the more the North consolidated the more the Watch became primarily a Northern concern. If the North and Iron Islands had a war the only side the Watch could really help was the Iron Islands against the North just as a matter of logistics. So there's a practical decline in who the Watch could threaten as the North consolidated and expanded from pure geographic reach as well as a decline in the relative threat the manpower of the Watch posed as the number of Kingdoms continued to shrink to just seven based on the increased military power of fewer kings with larger kingdoms.

The odd and unaccounted for change is really the Iron Throne. The Watch went from extraterritorial to any king to being subjects of a singular King. Prior wars didn't impact the Watch in this way since it technically owed allegiance to no King. Letters to the 5 kings or more would have been the norm and no king would have ever thought to be slighted by the Watch for such an appeal. There are two examples I can think of where this legal oddity comes up. The Gold Cloaks coming for Gendry is one. Yoren insists that he is with the Watch and that taking the Black puts Gendry outside the authority of the King. This was always the case as the Watch was extraterritorial and clearly so with multiple kings. This legal exemption is not pragmatically compatible with a singular kingdom absent respect from the king for that tradition. We see a similar thing with the Gift. We see kings make and break lords and Houses all the time. Territories expand and contract like we see with Connington's lands and Lords Paramount get raised up and cast down with borders and incomes decided at the whim of the king. No grant of land is immune-- except the Watch's gift. It doesn't have to be but Stannis expresses respect for this extraterritorial status both in the original pre-conquest grant and the one under a Targaryen dynasty.

This is also a vestige of the old Watch. The Wall wasn't the Northern border of any kingdom; the Gift was the Northern border of the Starks. Aside from the decay as an institution there are fundamental issues with the traditions being incompatible with the assumed legal framework. Prior to the Conquest a Gendry taking the Black was essentially an exile and subject to no lord and no king as a flip side to renouncing family and inheritance. Exiles vs. subjects matters. No Watch member is truly bound for life if they are still subjects of a King after taking the black. Kings can pardon, restore rights, raise lords, etc. As exiles they are no longer subject to a king or able to receive any such mercy. This really is the heart of the issue. If they're subjects they have to take part if ordered to by a king (it's good to be the king.) In this case they're screwed because like all subjects they have to acknowledge or refuse to acknowledge kings. Subjects have to pick sides and picking sides is taking part. If they're extraterritorial exiles they are not subjects of the Iron period and under no obligation to it other than to fulfill the oaths of their order.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

JOn has shown me time and time again how he's drawn to the "misfits".

Not to be That Guy, but I'll go ahead and be That Guy and say that Jon helping/bonding with society's misfits is another ticked box in the Christ allegory column (Jesus ran around with ex-prostitutes, tax collectors, and others who weren't viewed all that highly).

[Maia]

Roose must have been promised something in order to fully commit to the Red Wedding by ordering the Duskendale move.

Indeed. Even though Ramsey's action's at Winterfell pretty much committed Roose to doing whatever it took to prevent Robb's return to the North, IMHO. But Tywin couldn't have known this, of course.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but I think that initial promise to the Boltons entailed:

Wardenship and paramountship of the North

The Crown's blessing on their seizure of the Hornwood lands and their incorporation into Dreadfort domain.

Legitimization of Ramsey

fake Arya

and yes, probably an assurance that Sansa wouldn't be married to a northman.

But not Winterfell and its lands.

Basically, Tywin was creating the same setup as in the Riverlands - a new House paramount ruling from a different castle, but lands and castle of an old paramount handed out to somebody who could be counted on to be loyal to the Lannister regime and generally be a thorn in the side of the new paramount, preventing him from going rogue. Divide and conquer.

I am arguing that Tywin didn't necessarily intend to betray the new paramounts if they proved able to hold their positions, but he was introducing checks and balances on them and plans B in case they failed or turned against the crown.

I've been turning a couple Watch thoughts over in my head. Prior to the Iron Throne the LC wasn't really subject to the rule of any King in terms of owing fealty though there seems to be a policing distinction or tradition from Winterfell.

Well, Buttebumps! point, as it seems to me and I beg pardon if I am wrong, is that the policing tradition effectively puts NW under the authority of the King in the North and enables him to pluck certain Black Brothers and free them of their vows, if it serves his interests ;). Needless to say, I vehemently disagree with such interpretation.

I would also argue that at the very least those child/very young Lord Commanders of Stark blood that Sam read about are examples of the Starks inappropriately meddling with NW, similar to what Tywin was trying to do with Slynt.

Good point about consolidation and how it influenced de-facto independence of NW and it's potential to be a threat.

The Gold Cloaks coming for Gendry is one. Yoren insists that he is with the Watch and that taking the Black puts Gendry outside the authority of the King. This was always the case as the Watch was extraterritorial and clearly so with multiple kings. This legal exemption is not pragmatically compatible with a singular kingdom absent respect from the king for that tradition

Well, yes and no. The thing is, Gendry didn't give his oath yet, which adds an odd wrinkle to the proceedings. He was in a kind of in-between state. And Yoren was already smuggling Arya, so his interpretation of the laws governing NW neutrality was dubious anyway. Besides, Cersei being Cersei, this incident hardly depicts normal interactions between the Iron Throne and the Watch.

No Watch member is truly bound for life if they are still subjects of a King after taking the black. Kings can pardon, restore rights, raise lords, etc. As exiles they are no longer subject to a king or able to receive any such mercy. This really is the heart of the issue. If they're subjects they have to take part if ordered to by a king (it's good to be the king.)

And that's why I firmly believe that Robb's decision to name Jon his heir (if that's what he did) and Stannis's upcoming offer of Winterfell to Jon broke laws and traditions governing NW to such degree that if they had been successful, it would have been a mortal blow to it as an institution.

And that Robb, at least, should have known better. Whatever Cersei did about Barristan Selmy had no bearing on NW and couldn't have served as a precedent because KG are very much subjects and servants of a king, as you point out, but black brothers aren't. Not to mention that Robert's pardoning and retaining Jaime and Cersei's chucking out of Barristan _did_ harm KG severely.

[Lummel]

...Some random thoughts...

I noted the battle as a dance in Jon's internal monologue but don't have any clear thoughts on it yet. "None of that mattered. The dance has moved on, he thought"

Satin calls Jon "my lord" and Owen calls him "Lord Snow" in what seems to be sincere respect rather than Thorne's initial intent with the label...

Yes we get a bit of the younger characters coming to own their nicknames in these few chapters - there is more of it in the upcoming Sam chapter. It is a little like nomen est omen, mayhaps we can say that the jokes backfire on Ser Alister (well it is either that or hail him for his gentle insight and perspectivity!).

The battle as a dance. Hmm. I'm just thinking of those style of dances during which you change partners but eventually return to where you started from. But that is a thought more relevant to the dance of the dragons I suppose.

[butterbumps!]

I found it weird that all through that chapter, Jon thinks of Satin in respectful descriptions but in the last page, he drapes one arm over a crutch and the other arm over the shoulders of a boy "who'd been a whore in Oldtown". In the beginning of that chapter, Jon skirts around Satin's previous life and gently thinks, "that he was born and raised in a brothel". In the end of that chapter, he thinks of him in a more vulgar term that is un-Jon-like:) He is frantic though at that particular moment. He can barely walk but has to look for Ygritte amongst the bodies.

I'm glad you brought this up-- I noticed the difference as well. Without malice, Jon had been making observations that the Watch was comprised of "cripples" and non-fighters, and I wonder if this description might have something to do with Jon's acknowledgement that he, too, is included in the "cripples." So I wonder if it's a cynical observation about who's left of the Watch, and now he includes himself and Satin amongst them.

Yes, some. I suppose I don't see the Watch as being neutral because of armed neutrality. At best with adequete defences they could hold off the fervent attentions of Winterfell. I think I see where you might be going with this - to Jon XIII and suggesting that neutrality has to be mutual. My reading of Jon's memories of what his uncle said is that it is the other way round. Neutrality is one sided. The Watch is intended to be submissive to Winterfell and Winterfell has an acknowledged right to intervene in the watch's affairs if things get out of hand - in which case Jon's sense of the papershield from Sam I AFFC and the beginning of ADWD puts his actions with regard to Stannis in a different light :dunno:

Though this is my typical agenda admittedly, I wasn't trying to frame a case for two-sided neutrality.

What struck me about Benjen's description of this was more the fact that in history, the Watch is presented as the party in the wrong in every account, and the potential threat it could pose to the realm is how it's usually framed. Every account of intervention by the realm we've been presented with comes across as utterly justified by virtue of the Watch's having gone rogue-- and that's what's striking to me.

Unless some of these accounts are instances of revised history, we've never seen the realm launch an attack on the Watch or interfere in any opportunistic capacity. I'm not suggesting that this never happened, but rather, the historic accounts support the notion of the realm as a highly cooperative, upstanding participant in this, while it's the Watch who has not upheld their end of the bargain from time to time.

I think I know what you're saying-- these accounts show us that Winterfell can intercede with the Watch in terms of policing it in the event that the Watch goes rogue, but the Watch can't police the realm. That I agree with.

But I'm saying that the fact that none of these accounts portray unjustified intervention by the realm, nor are there any accounts of the realm, or Winterfell, specifically, leaving the Watch high and dry raises questions. Perhaps this does intersect with the idea of two-sided neutrality in the sense that the notion of unjustified interference or unjustified abandonment from the realm is at this point an unknown. That is, there's no precedent to draw from in the case of, say, a House marching on the Wall and taking it as their stronghold, or the failure of Winterfell to respond to a massive wildling attack.

Tywin never promised Winterfell to the Boltons before Tyrion got condemned for regicide and Sansa disappeared and he never promised Tyrion the title of Warden of the North and/or paramountship. It was more "make certain that not just one path, but _all_ paths lead to victory".

If Boltons failed to subdue the North - not unlikely, since they were a House on the brink of extinction, with legitimzed bastard as an only heir and tarnished by their involvement in the Red Wedding - then Tyrion and Sansa could have been plan B.

If they were, then Tyrion and Sansa at Winterfell would have been the check on new paramounts of the North and reminder to Boltons to remain on the straight and the narrow. Etc.

To me, it shows cooperation between Winterfell and NW, yes, and Winterfell's regulatory function when NW ran rogue... but it also demonstrates why those restrictive vows were necessary and how without them the Watch would have quickly degenerated into just another feodal lordship, mired in typical concerns of such and certainly not enjoying any support from the rest of Westeros. Which would have lead to them being even less equal to the task of defense against both Others and wildlings than the current NW is/was.

After all, look at all these feodal lordships who would have been the first to suffer had the wildlings broken through and butchered NW - the Umbers, the Mountain clans, the Karstarks. None of them showed up to defend the Wall, because they had their own priorities. None of them reacted to news about the wights, either.

Yes, and the one that demonstrates the weak link in NW's overeliance on the Starks and Winterfell, no?

Because here were have the case of a Stark who happened to decide that his southern interests were more important, even though he was well aware of impending wildling invasion and poor state of NW.

Of a Stark who completely neglected all the opportunities to increase NW numbers through prisoners of war until he needed to bribe NW for his own purposes. A Stark who was ready to deliver a mortal blow to NW by naming a black brother his heir, in defiance of all laws and traditions that have governed it for millenia and ensured it's continued existence.

Which makes me wonder about historical accounts of Winterfell meddling in NW affairs. Was it always justified? Were there cases of harmful interference, of NW pushing back against a corrupt Stark? And how did it go when there were several kingdoms in the North and the Starks weren't the most proximate major power to the Wall?

Well, Buttebumps! point, as it seems to me and I beg pardon if I am wrong, is that the policing tradition effectively puts NW under the authority of the King in the North and enables him to pluck certain Black Brothers and free them of their vows, if it serves his interests ;). Needless to say, I vehemently disagree with such interpretation.

I would also argue that at the very least those child/very young Lord Commanders of Stark blood that Sam read about are examples of the Starks inappropriately meddling with NW, similar to what Tywin was trying to do with Slynt.

First, thanks for pointing out the Warden/ Winterfell difference. I know it's the Wardenship Roose received from Tywin, but I think that's poisoned too, as I think Tyrion, through Sansa, was intended to get that title in time. I might have lazily conflated Warden/ Winterfell, so I'll be more careful, lol.

I may have answered some of your first points above in my response to Lum, but I do want to clarify that I wasn't trying to speak to the idea of releasing vows or anything like that. It's a little premature, so I hesitate a little to bring this up, but my view is that if Jon's to be released from the Watch, I think he should just quit the Watch-- I'd rather see this as a conscious choice than a legal loophole. All of which is to say I'm not trying to suggest the KitN has the authority to release him or the like.

[Lummel]

I'm glad you brought this up-- I noticed the difference as well. Without malice, Jon had been making observations that the Watch was comprised of "cripples" and non-fighters, and I wonder if this description might have something to do with Jon's acknowledgement that he, too, is included in the "cripples." So I wonder if it's a cynical observation about who's left of the Watch, and now he includes himself and Satin amongst them...

What struck me about Benjen's description of this was more the fact that in history, the Watch is presented as the party in the wrong in every account, and the potential threat it could pose to the realm is how it's usually framed. Every account of intervention by the realm we've been presented with comes across as utterly justified by virtue of the Watch's having gone rogue-- and that's what's striking to me...

But I'm saying that the fact that none of these accounts portray unjustified intervention by the realm, nor are there any accounts of the realm, or Winterfell, specifically, leaving the Watch high and dry raises questions. Perhaps this does intersect with the idea of two-sided neutrality in the sense that the notion of unjustified interference or unjustified abandonment from the realm is at this point an unknown. That is, there's no precedent to draw from in the case of, say, a House marching on the Wall and taking it as their stronghold, or the failure of Winterfell to respond to a massive wildling attack...

Jon being among the cripples and green boys ties into, iirc, Jon I ADWD and that sense of the command as a ruin, but equally I suppose picks up on the point that has been made at various times that the watch is made up of misfits, losers, criminals and traitors. As a bitter observation it ties into what Julian was saying above and something that is picking up in the next chapter Jon's sense of loss. There is the visible physical injury from his time with the wildlings, but also an emotional one.

Yes, hard to say about the interventions it is. I suppose if you were one of House Bolton's numerous PR team then you would say that an intervention against Jon and the watch was completely valid and that he had gone rogue and was endangering the realm - it is a question of perspective, although the examples that Benjen gives are, er, not contestable - they appear as clear cut cases.

on the other hand with only three castles open and a strength of circa 1000 in AGOT perhaps we can say that unjustified abandonment by the realm seems to be the rule rather than the exception? The precedent then would be that the Watch can't impress people or seize resources :dunno:

Something that I've always found curious is that even historically the Watch seems to have been, well, a bit naff. Winterfell seems to have to repeatedly save the Watch's bacon and do its job for it - battling Gorn and Gendel or Bael the Bard when they invaded. But that is off topic really and has zero relevance to this chapter :laugh:

[Lummel]

Jon VIII ASOS

Overview

This and the next chapter were great the first time I read them. However after a few rereads the sense of danger ebbs away because there is no way that the wildlings can win here. These chapters then feel a bit redundant for me – this is something I'll come back to below.

Briefly, the chapter begins in darkness with a significant dream. Jon hears the horn sound twice for Wildlings and joins the watchmen on the Wall. He is left in charge, despite Jon's unspoken misgivings, by Donal Noye. The chapter ends with Jon pushed into acknowledging that he is in charge of Castle Black and its defence after his discovery that Donal Noye died in combat with Mag the mighty, King of the Giants.

The theme of duty and leadership is a continuation from the proceeding chapter in which Davos tells Stannis that to be a King he has to act like one (and continues Jon's assumption of a leadership role from Jon VII above). This Jon chapter is followed by the Arya chapter in which she realises that Catelyn died at the Red Wedding through a dream – which ties into Jon's dream that starts this chapter. Overall this is a chapter touching on loneliness and separation despite being amongst others, loss of place and alienation despite it being underlined that Jon has a place, albeit one he does not perhaps want.

Observations

• “He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted”
• “Noye had kept three orphan boys whose father had died on the steps...but no one else seemed to want them” this reminds me of Jon requesting greybeards and children from neighbouring lords in ADWD.
• “you cannot fight the dead Jon Snow” aside from reminding me of “you know nothing Jon Snow” this line opens up the question of how the apparent threat from the White Walkers will be resolved.
• “the gate was a crooked tunnel through the ice, smaller than any castle gate in the Seven Kingdoms, so narrow that rangers must lead their garrons through single file.” Ok, back in the early days of Heresy we argued that the Black Gate at the Nightfort was possibly a ceremonial portal because it seemed impractical in terms of moving men and equipment from one side of the Wall to the other, but it seems that all the Wall gates were not designed with the needs of moving loads or groups of men in or out. Interesting.
• Septon Cellador. Have we mentioned that his name is a nod to Tolkien who felt that cellar door was one of the most mellifluous word combinations in English?
• “Gentle Mother, font of mercy” this is the same song that Sansa sings to Sandor after the battle of the Blackwater. Sandor, that big softie, was more impressed by it that Donal Noye who clearly has no appreciation for music.
• “two great trebuchets that Bowen Marsh had restored to working order” - Bowen appears to have done something right and useful besides counting things for a change (see this website which is, potentially unwisely, encouraging children to build medieval siege engines)
• “We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them” - but not for long, as he turns out to be as limited and unimaginative as ever.
• “Pyp went to Maester Aemon for the spare key” I find that a very domestic, even charming detail, that they have a spare key for the castle gate.
• “All this was the work of one giant.” This reminds me of Maester Aemon telling Tyrion that he is a giant. Mayhaps it also ties into the idea of power as we see with the dragons that the potential for good and for enormous devastation have to be taken into consideration

Analysis

Jon's Dream

There's always something pleasant about getting a chapter with a dream in it. Always the promise of rich pickings, even for a murder of ravens.

There are two elements to this dream. One that is often pointed to is Jon's sense of not being a Stark. “You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter” we can ask if this is the voice of his subconscious – that desire to be of Winterfell but feeling excluded from it visually expressed in Bran I AGOT, the force of that tension visited on Iron Emmet's head in a future chapter or if this is a message from without, from the ancestors or old gods. Perhaps there is something of both here. The statues' fingers tighten round sword hilts at the threat of the outsider – a gesture that is very characteristic of Jon.

However there is another aspect to this dream and that is that it is a journey to the place of the dead. “There is no place for you here. Go away”. It is not Jon's place because he is one of the living. The people he calls out to are all people that he believes are dead: his Father (meaning The Ned – hey, no laughing at the back!), Bran, Rickon, Benjen and Ygritte (Ygritte is here in the Stark crypt which takes us back to the previous dream, Ygritte's flesh sloughing off in the warm pool before the Weirwood in the Winterfell godswood, interesting juxtaposition since she is less of a Stark than Jon, yet in his dream he thinks he might meet her here anyway. Interestingly he also asks her for forgiveness). He expects to find them all here, but who does he actually see? Grey Wind, flecked with blood (“but it was only a direwolf” - a nice line, because of course it is perfectly natural to find a direwolf in a crypt). This is like Arya's dream of her mother. A dream about the Red Wedding that tells of Robb's death. Above he hears drums even if not the strains of the Rains of Castlemere. Exclusion from that feast saved his life, but here it suggests a double isolation that will define Jon throughout ADWD, from a world of joy and companionship and from the ancestors, the place that he felt or wanted to be his (and how many people want to be Starks so desperately: Jon, Theon and Lady Dustin, quite the odd threesome).

Note also the light going out: “the crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere” a parallel to Jaime's dream (while sleeping on a Weirwood stump) in AFFC, but could suggest death – a life going out, in this case Robb's.

Why the attack on the Wall?

The Wall will stop them. The Wall defends itself...The chariots, the horsemen, all those fools on foot...what are they going to do to us up here? Any of you ever see a mammoth climb a wall?...They're nothing, they're less use than our straw brothers here, they can't reach us, they can't hurt us, and they don't frighten us do they?..so long as we hold the gate they cannot pass. They cannot pass!

Ok. So this is rhetoric and bravado from Jon, but he has a point. Strictly speaking GRRM makes the situation for the defenders slightly more dangerous than it could be in reality by allowing a few arrows to hit them from below – which given the 700' height of the Wall is iirc playing fast and very loose with physics.

So what is GRRM doing here with this set piece battle with no stakes?

The set piece battle serves to emphasise how desperate the Wildling position is and The Mance's desire to lead his people to safety and shelter from the worst of Winter in the lea of the Wall.

Command and control is so a serious weakness (“Their want of discipline is showing” as Jon thinks to himself) and/or that the threat from the White Walkers is such that he doesn't want to risk separating his horde– that The Mance doesn't separate his forces to pin down the Watch and scale the Wall in multiple places, dig out some of the old gates, or use a mass of boats to go round the western or eastern edges of the Wall. He should have the numbers to do that.

Clearly destroying or damaging the Wall structural integrity is something that The Mance really doesn't want to do – underlining his comments that Jon remembers in this chapter that you can't fight the dead – he needs the Wall to be intact and defensible. If we flick back to the description of the tunnel through the Wall this isn't much of a weak point either, it's more of a death trap for an attacker, something that The Mance presumably was aware of. In which case his Plan B I would guess always was to bluff his way through the Wall. While we're on the topic isn't it odd that the Thenns were meant to capture Castle Black before Mance and the rest of the horde arrived, wouldn't have made more sense for them to have used Orell the Eagle to coordinate a joint attack – its a good thing that The Mance never watched Skippy the Kangaroo when off duty back in his Watch days, it might have given him some dangerous ideas.

Something else that occurs to me is the contrast between Jon and Daenerys. We see Jon defending his Walls while Daenerys is capturing cities or receiving their submission. Daenerys' horde is comparable to Mance's, a heterogeneous mass of people bound together by one person and hope for a better future yet at the same time destructive and a threat to established and settled ways of life. Both promise, or threaten depending on where you stand (to recall the Ygritte-Jon debates) social upheaval.

Perhaps you disagree, is there more to The Mance's attack than sound and fury, signifying nothing?

“You. You must lead”

Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow.

Maester Aemon there closes the chapter and really confirms the inevitability in Jon's progression from The Ned's bastard to eventual Lord Commander of the Watch. This gives us another way to look at the defence of the Wall. GRRM needs it to demonstrate Jon as a leader ( something that we saw start in Jon VII). We see that he is put in command but more importantly we see how he exercises that command through encouragement and example. There will be no kissing on his watch!

The chapter begins with Jon excluded from a place that he wants to belong to and ends with him confirmed to a place that he doesn't feel he should have (“There are older men, Jon wanted to say, better men. I am still as green as summer grass. I'm wounded, and I stand accused of desertion.”) and has no joy in accepting.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Jon VIII ASOS

Why the attack on the Wall?

...

So what is GRRM doing here with this set piece battle with no stakes?

The set piece battle serves to emphasise how desperate the Wildling position is and The Mance's desire to lead his people to safety and shelter from the worst of Winter in the lea of the Wall.

Command and control is so a serious weakness (“Their want of discipline is showing” as Jon thinks to himself) and/or that the threat from the White Walkers is such that he doesn't want to risk separating his horde– that The Mance doesn't separate his forces to pin down the Watch and scale the Wall in multiple places, dig out some of the old gates, or use a mass of boats to go round the western or eastern edges of the Wall. He should have the numbers to do that.

Well, Mance did do some decoy work. That's why Bowen Marsh wasn't at Castle Black.

Clearly destroying or damaging the Wall structural integrity is something that The Mance really doesn't want to do – underlining his comments that Jon remembers in this chapter that you can't fight the dead – he needs the Wall to be intact and defensible. If we flick back to the description of the tunnel through the Wall this isn't much of a weak point either, it's more of a death trap for an attacker, something that The Mance presumably was aware of.

Still, it was a near thing. The gate is a weak point. Noye didn't man any murder holes in the tunnel, so the fighting there should have been even. Mag needed a few archers supporting him, so he could concentrate on breaking the gates.

In which case his Plan B I would guess always was to bluff his way through the Wall. While we're on the topic isn't it odd that the Thenns were meant to capture Castle Black before Mance and the rest of the horde arrived, wouldn't have made more sense for them to have used Orell the Eagle to coordinate a joint attack – its a good thing that The Mance never watched Skippy the Kangaroo when off duty back in his Watch days, it might have given him some dangerous ideas.

...

Perhaps you disagree, is there more to The Mance's attack than sound and fury, signifying nothing?

I think Mance had a decent chance, but he does seem to be limiting himself a bit. Old Nan said the North was safe "as long as the Wall stood and the NW was true", so yes, we have to consider the possibility that Mance wants to get south of the Wall without destroying the Wall or the NW.

“You. You must lead”

...

The chapter begins with Jon excluded from a place that he wants to belong to and ends with him confirmed to a place that he doesn't feel he should have (“There are older men, Jon wanted to say, better men. I am still as green as summer grass. I'm wounded, and I stand accused of desertion.”) and has no joy in accepting.

Jon, the reluctant leader. Foreshadowing for later career choices, perhaps?

Sorry for being gone - I was in password issue hell for a week and a half.

[Lummel]

...Jon, the reluctant leader. Foreshadowing for later career choices, perhaps?

Sorry for being gone - I was in password issue hell for a week and a half.

Glad you are with us! It isn't compulsory to post though, hopefully it is something that you enjoy? I'm also glad that you disagree over the battle. Lets see how opinion shapes up over this, any more for thinking that Mance has a decent chance to win, or not? Did Mance want to fight or was he intending to bluff his way past from the beginning when he realised that the Thenns were unsuccessful?

I'd say that Jon was a reluctant leader from the first. He wanted to be a ranger and presumably a heroic figure, riding through the glen, sadly he didn't want to be a steward like Dolorous Edd and future counter of beans and leader of men, no, he wanted to be a Waymar Royce!

[Julian Rayne]

Two things. They shall not pass - another nodd to Tolkien? Giving Gandalf's line to Jon could be more foreshadowing.

Rereading this chapter with hindsight from ADwD, I almost felt like crying at the absolute WASTE of human life, one might even say human resources, inflicted by the NW and the Wildlings on each other, these two entities who will become nominal allies in a very short time. To a reader like me who is far more interested in the Song than the Game, I find this chapter harder to read than the Red Wedding.

[Julian Rayne]

Double post.

[Lummel]

Two things. They shall not pass - another nodd to Tolkien? Giving Gandalf's line to Jon could be more foreshadowing.

Rereading this chapter with hindsight from ADwD, I almost felt like crying at the absolute WASTE of human life, one might even say human resources, inflicted by the NW and the Wildlings on each other, these two entities who will become nominal allies in a very short time. To a reader like me who is far more interested in the Song than the Game, I find this chapter harder to read than the Red Wedding.

Harder to read than the red wedding, wow. Yes, I like your Tolkien nod there. Would it have been possible for the watch and the wildlings to have become allies without the battle? Does Mance have to be defeated and the watch/Stannis' army victorious for a conversation to be possible?

The point of Jon and Ygritte might be that reconciliation is impossible until one side clearly has the upper hand and the other side has to kneel, which seems a bit cruel...

[Julian Rayne]

Harder to reread I should say. The RW was horrific the first time around, but I enjoy rereading it because I can focus on the GRRM's craftmanship.

This chapter I initially read as a glorious defense scene. It was only in hindsight that I found it so sad.

The only ad hoc justification I can come up with is that there was no way the Wildling would ever kneel or accept the Jon/Tormund agreement without the battle. But I think I'm overstepping the rules of the thread.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Hard to judge Mance's chances based on this chapter. In the next it does seem like the watch is running out of resources. I think Jon never envisioned himself as a leader/LC, he wanted to be a the ranger which is why he never really considers it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

About the wildling chances to win: I know little about the ways of war :) so, usually, I take what is written at face value and trust the word of adequately knowledgeable characters in-story. However, I think that the focus of this battle is exclusively on the gate. It seems that, if one more giant had managed to pass and open the other two ironbar doors, it would be the end of it. It would have been a matter of numbers then. Too many wildlings would have been killed, but the rest, that eventually would have passed through the tunnel, would still be too many for the NW.

Twice dragons are mentioned here, wishing for "a dragon or three" and the tunnel as "the gullet of an ice dragon". The first, as a metaphor of futility, could prove to be ironic in hindsight as there is a possibility that someday, three dragons might show up at the wall. The second creates an ominousimage of the wall as a human-devouring ice dragon but I don't know if there is any further symbolism here.

Jon's "¡No pasarán!" speech reminds me a bit of Sansa's speech to the women in Maegor's during the battle of the blackwater, especially for the way it started:“The Wall will stop them,” Jon heard himself say. Becoming the leader out of necessity, because there is no one else to do it. "There are older men, Jon wanted to say, better men." he says to himself, but he knows it isn't true, it's just an other futile wish. However, the rest is true. He is too young, wounded, and many of his brothers don't trust him. But at least he doesn't lack self-awareness, which is a good quality for a leader.

[Ragnorak]

Excellent work, Lummel.

I think it was Tze that first pointed out that the Jon, Jaime, and Theon dreams are all connected.

The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere.

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out ... Then his sword went dark

“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”
“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

The light that goes out somewhere seems to be Jaime's sword and the Jaime rules out a bear and a lion but not a direwolf as Jon finds a direwolf in the darkness.

Jaime also equates that direwolf with doom. This direwolf doom is mirrored in Theon's dream.

he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. Every stride brought them closer. Theon tried to run faster, but his legs would not obey. The trees all had faces, and they were laughing at him, laughing, and the howl came again. He could smell the hot breath of the beasts behind him, a stink of brimstone and corruption.

And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon's dream is considerably more focused on House Stark and the old gods as doom given the faces on the direwolves and the faces on the trees with the branches lashing and cutting him. Lots of places to go with this.

I'm curious about the notion of "Father" here for multiple reasons but I think it may tie in with this Apple's thread about Jon and the Monomyth specifically point 9.

“Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.”

(The chill wind also shows up in Theon's dream when Robb and Grey Wind show up.) Father here could refer to Rhaegar or it could refer to Ned. "Uncle?" could be read as Jon's confusion and maybe he needs to answer the Father/Uncle dilemma before he finds what he's looking for down here in these dreams. Maybe he needs to ask his mother for help given the location before he has a place here?

Jon expects to find Ygritte when he finds the direwolf. Some parallels and contrasts to Jaime there who is with Brienne and Theon who dreams of the miller's wife. For Jon Ygritte is sadness, regret, a rite of passage but hardly the doom Jaime or Theon find in their dreams.

The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark…

The Father question is curious because of the inter-related nature of the dreams. Rhaegar shows up in Jaime's dream and Jaime too mistakes Ned for Rhaegar.

“Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.”

Rhaegar says:

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

Jaime seems to have a growing interest in oathkeeping or at least making up for failures to keep oaths. I don't want to make a big deal of the point but it is worth making note that Cat's words hit home as he tells Tywin he's tired of women kicking buckets of shit at his honor. Based in part on that judgment he sends Brienne to fulfill the oath to Cat. There's potential for a parallel here with Rhaegar's ghost in the dream and Jon. While I personally don't put much stock in "rightful heir" Jaime's thought here is worth pointing out:

rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

(Random thought-- Dragonstone. Is everything Stannis has rightfully Jon's?)

During Jaime's dream he asks for a sword and Tywin tells him that he's given Jaime a sword. Brienne then asks Jaime for a sword and he gives one to her. These swords magically appear but in reality Tywin will give Jaime a sword that he'll give to Brienne.

As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.
“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

The actual sword Jaime gets and gives to Brienne is not silvery-blue (Arryn colors? Sansa in the Vale given Brienne's quest?) The sword has some very Targaryen colors and connections to Jon's current sword since his has garnets for the eyes.

Perhaps with garnets for the eyes…”
“Rubies,” Lord Tywin said. “Garnets lack the fire.”

Lots to read into that with the Fatherhood theme especially with all we talked about with Longclaw's meaning. Here are the descriptions of the actual sword Tywin gives Jaime and Jaime in turn gives to Brienne. Much ado about Targaryen colors, the blade remembers, and kings.

The light streaming through the diamond-shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold.

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see.

If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king’s sword had only two. Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions’ paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pommels.

Lots of possibilities open up looking at the dreams as connected.

As a side note I wanted to make note of the "paper shield" from the end of the prior Davos chapter for later in case I forget

Davos fumbled inside his cloak and drew out the crinkled sheet of parchment. It seemed a thin and flimsy thing, yet it was all the shield he had. “A King’s Hand should be able to read and write. Maester Pylos has been teaching me.” He smoothed the letter flat upon his knee and began to read by the light of the magic sword.

[Maia]

I think Jon never envisioned himself as a leader/LC, he wanted to be a the ranger which is why he never really considers it.

Not true, Jon wanted to join NW because he could rise high there and he boasted about becoming LC to his brothers, too, both when he was leaving and, IIRC via Tyrion. While he was certainly brought down to earth by his experiences, I still think that it remained a long-term goal, but very much in the background.

Jon doesn't envision himself becoming an LC in immediate future, though, as he certainly became much humbler and more self-critical as well as cognizant of the great burden that the position entails.

Lummel:

Interesting thought about the wildling attack on the gate being ultimately hopeless. I am not sure that fear of the Others/wights explains lack of other raiding groups sent to climb over the Wall, once NW's attention was fixed on battle for the gate. Jon's group wasn't accosted, nor was Stannis's force.

I mean, they may have been afraid of Melisandre, but I somehow doubt it. And I have a distinct impression that wildlings know certain protections which yes, don't work 100% or maybe only for a limited time or something. Not to get too far ahead, but Val didn't seem to fear any supernatural threats when she traveled beyond the Wall in ADwD - alone!

So, sending extra parties over the Wall once Mance saw that Stygg had failed should have been worth the risk and better than a very bloody head-on attack on an extremely well-fortified gate. Mance bluffing his way through may have seemed a decent plan C, but where is plan B?

I don't believe that Mance wanted to spare NW or intended to be defeated so that he'd be able transfer his authority to Jon ;).