The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[Ragnorak]

Observations:

Jon forces himself to smile to Owen and later Grenn but then later he smiles easily to an exchange between Pyp and Grenn when he gives command to Pyp. I'm not sure if this speaks to his character development overall or is just highlighting how exhausted he is and then after turtle bashing he can smile more easily.

I think the whole M'lord/My Lord exchange etc. and the similar exchanges throughout the books are a furthering of GRRM exploring the theme of identity. Just because you are entitled to a certain title, your behavior may indicate that you are not that title or visa versa you have no title but your behavior indicates that you are more than your lack of title. I think this could be important regarding Jon and his whole trying to come to terms with his bastardy (and a potential reveal that he's not even the Stark he wants to be). This could also tie in with Jon, Jaime and Theon as well, as I think all 3 of these men/boys are trying to come to terms with their identities outside of what their last name or title is.

Thanks for the sword link Ragnorak. It is of interest to me. I often feel like someone that has shown up to a party that is soon to be over. I couldn't find the discussion about anti-war theme. The search function here doesn't like me and even google didn't help much. I guess I'm just happy that others noticed it.

As a side note we see an early leadership profile beginning to emerge with his choosing Grenn and Pyp to lead on separate occasions.

I like your identity observations. I suspect Lummel will too as soon as he recovers from his Sloe Gin holiday research.

We have the prophetic true and false dragons but also have Jorah commenting on Viserys as a false dragon of sorts compared to Rhaegar. We have the Usurper vs. the rightful King. Usurpers come in all flavors. Bastard flavored usurpers, rebelling usurpers, uppity younger brother usurpers, conquering usurpers, reclaiming usurpers, marrying usurpers and in all this very soon we'll get Stannis reciting the lesson he learned from Davos about what makes a true King. Lots of what you point out has come up and will continue to. The idea of what makes a father was discussed earlier and I think that fits with the trend you mention. Jon and Slynt do make an excellent contrast here as both are presumed to be of low birth and have been bestowed the title of Lord without an actual lordship in an organization that forsakes those titles (outside of courtesy.) Slynt's actions demonstrate that he is quite unlordly while Jon's have largely been rather lordly or at least stepping stones to becoming lordly. The speech patterns really do drive that home.

On a separate note if you like the rereads, the ladies in the Pawn to Player thread started with a Sansa reread. The current incarnation has links to the various chapters in that reread as well as links to several essays and posts in the first post of the thread. Here's the start of the Arya reread. Mladen has a Davos reread which I regret not having time to follow and there was a Cersei reread floating around that I missed until the very end too. The sword link will take you to the Tyrion reread which started here. There's also the Learning to Lead project which compared Dany and Jon over the course of Dance with Dragons. We'll be covering that ground again at least as far as Jon is concerned and I'm sure that will get referenced as we go through Dance. The longer it takes Martin to publish the next book the more of these we'll probably end up doing so I'm sure we'll start a new party where you can be here for the beginning.

[Fire Eater]

From the earlier chapter

Jon laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

He [barristan] had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

He laughed . . . and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

That's possibly two king references in one sentence.

[Maia]

There's something about the timing of the southron foolishness that I find particularly grating. Not that there's any good time for racism and religious bigotry ( where does Cellador think he is anyway? ) but when you're threatened by dead people and ice demons seems like the absolute worst time.

Throne at least has seen a detached hand moving by itself with his own eyes. His stupidity here is staggering.

Yea, I really don't understand Thorne. He knows that the wights are real. He is a noble who had been sent to the Wall by Tywin Lannister - why is he so taken with a parvenu like Slynt? Why does he go out of his way to fawn over Slynt, allow him to insist on being called "Lord", even though technically he no longer has the right to use the title, after taking the Black?

Yes, they both hate Tyrion and Jon (Slynt by proxy), but shouldn't Thorne hate Lannisters in general and all their works, too? As well as uppity commoners briefly raised by them into nobility?

I can see Marsh's reasons to oppose Jon in the future and consider some of them valid... I really can't see Thorne's here. Particularly since all this stuff was happening before the arrival of Tywin's letter, IIRC. I mean, there was going to be more fighting, every warm body was useful to the defenders, why not just put Jon somewhere dangerous? He could still be disposed of/ saddled with a suicidal mission if he survived...

Ser Glendon Hewett doesn't make a good first impression either... and he'll be the one left in charge of Eastwatch in ADwD. Hm...

[Lady of Long Lake]

I like your identity observations. I suspect Lummel will too as soon as he recovers from his Sloe Gin holiday research.

LOL! I love that term:)

[Lummel]

...We have Jon's berserker strength. Exhausted after three straight days of battle and with his injured leg he still lifts Thorne of the damn ground with one hand. Gotta love adrenaline. Maybe there's something to that Darth Vader parallel...

...A note about the opening imagery

The first thing that struck me was the symbolism of old conflicts. The opening Day and night the axes rang reminded me of the original First Men and Children of the Forest conflict with all the assaults on wood...and even a bit of brother vs. brother civil war imagery with trees shielding Wildlings from the sight of crows as both are heavily associated with the old gods and our second to last greenseer Bloodraven in particular...Noticing it gave me a sense of conflicts within conflicts or conflicts built on past conflicts which I think fits well with everything that comes with Slynt and Thorne's arrival...

'I find your lack of faith in the pow-er of the old gods disturbing' :laugh:

Agree on the southern vs northern style vs substance theme starting off here. Slynt as antithesis to The Ned and the old bear!

I like your take on the swinging axes and the situation as a war of brother vs brother so we get the double parallel of people divided against themselves. Fighting when they should be uniting to withstand Winter.

This colonial's experience is limited to a Sloe Gin Fizz whose taste I can't even recall. I do think the cane is a beautifully subtle hint that Aemon came alone, but I don't know what to make of the Blackthorn...

I don't know if the sight of the cane means that Aemon came alone. My Grandmother would hold on to my arm with one hand and use a walking stick in the other :dunno: Blackthorne thorns are fairly big but not as evil as those on a Pyracantha in my experience - we use those a lot for defensive plantings in the UK. Thorne is surely just a play on words - prickly by name and prickly by nature? Blackthorne are tough hedge plants if that makes any odds.

...The 2 Kings

Something that struck me in this chapter is the imagery of two different Kings. On one hand we have the absent King of Westeros, whose failure to protect his own Realm is attested by the decadent conditions of the NW and its castles. On the other hand we have the crown-less King, Mance Rayder, who is actively involved in guarding his people, even though he is not backed up by an institutional frame and structure, which in the end does contribute to render his cause a futile one. I find this interesting in light of the question Jon poses to Mance later on, are you a true King? And Gilly’s words to Jon“that the king defends his people”. Much like the King’s tower in CB, the “King” institution is deteriorated and in ongoing decline on both sides given ... Even the King that shows up at the Wall later on sees his intervention in favor of the NW as a stepping stone towards the throne...

A King rather than the king I think seeing as there are multiple kings in Westeros at the time ;)

Agree very much on the king business. I think we can take this back to Varys' riddle about power in ACOK and discuss it a bit without reference to future chapters.

What we see here really builds on what Varys said. We are shown through the Mance story a contrast with King Bob and therefore the difference between a King in name, someone who wears a crown and is called a king and Mance as a King in deed - someone who does the job of a king, defending the people, providing leadership, judgement and keeping the peace. Power is an illusion Varys tells us. Bob wore the crown while other people exercised the power. On the flip side if you are exercising power and people perceive you as the decision maker then it doesn't matter what you are called or what you wear on your head - this is what he see on the Wall too and in the contrast between Jon and Slynt. Slynt insisting on people recognising his rabbit ears (as Daenerys calls the symbols of power and authority in ADWD) while Jon has been getting on with teh business of doing the job of person in charge.

Observations:

Jon forces himself to smile to Owen and later Grenn but then later he smiles easily to an exchange between Pyp and Grenn when he gives command to Pyp...

I think the whole M'lord/My Lord exchange etc. and the similar exchanges throughout the books are a furthering of GRRM exploring the theme of identity...

...Thanks for the sword link Ragnorak. It is of interest to me. I often feel like someone that has shown up to a party that is soon to be over. I couldn't find the discussion about anti-war theme...

I thought the anti-war theme had come up in the disccussion of the battle in AGOT against Roose, but i couldn't spot anything there, maybe it was during the discussion of the Blackwater Blattle in ACOK. iirc it was basically that there is in GRRM both a sense of the grandeur and emotional involvement, banners and bugles and all that as well as the loss and horror of it all. My feeling is that most if not all the battles we see in ASOIAF are futile, it is the politics before and after that is deciesive. In AFFC I think this all comes to head in Septon Meribald's speech, there's a strong sense for me of how far and how damaging the chivalric idea has been thrust into this society. Violence is ennobling (in terms of social hierarchy) and degrading (psychologically) at the same time here.

A reread is an odd kind of party, we're trying to tie things together within a storyline and between storylines, so here you can drink the same drink many times over ;)

I noted the forcing a smile too. Jon does that twice in almost exactly the same words "Jon made himself smile", then "he made himself smile" with the third time (rule of three) we get the variation - Jon's smile comes naturally.

Identity is one of the really big themes in ASOIAF. Who are you, who are you supposed to be, who do you want to be. Most of the POV characters go through some kind of identity crisis or have at least problems with it. Here there is a definite nod to that. Is Jon a turncloak, hero or both? What does it mean to be stark? Worthy of respect or hereditaryly treacherous (traitors now for three generations from a certain point of view!).

...It seems a little like the battle has turned into a contest of improvisations, Jon Snow against the Mance.

Not much to add about Janos Slynt, except that he's the cause one of my favorite asoiaf insults, "I don’t know what your skull is stuffed with. My lord." Alliser Thorne, on the other hand, is a much more interesting character. He should know better, but he is blinded by hate, misplaced hate it must be noted, but I think it should be better left for ADWD. I think that Stannis' true contribution to the Wall, in the end, was saving them from those guys...

Interesting points. I like the contest of improvisations, very true.

...Slynt's actions demonstrate that he is quite unlordly while Jon's have largely been rather lordly or at least stepping stones to becoming lordly. The speech patterns really do drive that home...

I saw that as a deliberate dissonance between speech and actions. Slynt is talking the talk while Jon is walking the walk?

From the earlier chapter...Jon laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him...He [barristan] had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen...He laughed . . . and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him...That's possibly two king references in one sentence.

Heh, nice!

...I can see Marsh's reasons to oppose Jon in the future and consider some of them valid... I really can't see Thorne's here...

It is strange given there is a wildling army outside the gates (although Jon is just one sword I suppose). The only things I can think of are the old rivalry between Thorne and Jon, neither can escape their past, and maybe desire for power in the context of the upcoming elections :dunno:

What else did I note -

"a gust of wind sent icy tendrils wending through his long brown hair", I might be pushing it a bit here but I was reminded of Jon Connington's memory in JC II of Rhaeger's long fine hair blowing out as he stood, not atop the Wall, but on a tower of Griffen's Roost. Mayhaps a nod to the idea of L+R=J?

Jon's awareness of the morale of the group - the smiling mentioned above but also the arrow competition. Also what isn't said - Jon does not think that he has to do these things, he assumes responsibility without consideration or thought. It's automatically obvious to him that he could have shut down the arrow competition and that he has to smile.

The Bridge of Skulls. The high casualties stood out in the context of Jon's plan to attack the Thenns on the Kings Road and Mormont's plan (ok Qhorin/Smallwoood's) to attack the Wildlings on the march. Both quite confident that trained men can cut up much larger numbers of wildlings. Does the Bridge of Skulls mean that both are wrong or just that Bowen is a poor battle commander?

Jon wakes the sleepers with the blowing of a horn. I wondered if maybe we are wrong to think of the Joramon story as being something magical, maybe in origin it was simply something practical like this? (Yes I have been rereading Foucault's pendulum..!)

But anyway judging from Thorne's reaction the Horn of Winter seems to be a well known story in Westeros.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hi everyone and Happy New Year to all! I don't have much to add to this discussion but I wanted to mention regarding Slynt and Thorne how sad and frustrating it is to me now to see that they both made it to the Wall so easily from King's Landing, by boat it would seem, while Arya's group with Yoren, travelling by land, could not. Someone like Yoren would have been a good ally for Jon but instead he's forced to deal with these two. It's not fair!

[Lummel]

Hi everyone and Happy New Year to all! I don't have much to add to this discussion but I wanted to mention regarding Slynt and Thorne how sad and frustrating it is to me now to see that they both made it to the Wall so easily from King's Landing, by boat it would seem, while Arya's group with Yoren, travelling by land, could not. Someone like Yoren would have been a good ally for Jon but instead he's forced to deal with these two. It's not fair!

All I think of is just how much Yoren stank! Could that have been their secret weapon or would it have forced the men on the Wall to surrender? :laugh:

Good to see you again Elba!

[Maia]

Happy New Year!

Lummel:

While I certainly wouldn't argue that Marsh is a great general, Mormont's certainty that he would be able to defeat Mance with his 300 men never made sense to me.

After all, Starks surely had many more than that at the Battle of Long Lake against Raymun Redbeard and while they were victorious, their losses were substantial, including even Lord Willum Stark himself. And Ned also thought that he'd have to call banners of the North - i.e. more than 10K men, to deal with Mance.

But Stannis did it with less, some would say - yes indeed, but when we come to it I'll argue that it was a very special case.

Jon's idea to confront the wildlings raiding party on the road with mounted, well-equipped and trained men at 1:2 odds was quite different and entirely practical, IMHO.

Re: Slynt, I have a feeling that he is actually sabotaging himself, somewhat, with his insistance on a title that he held only briefly and no longer has a right to. It is not like he has no idea how to lead - after all, he rose from humble beginnings to command of the City Watch - a position that used to be occupied by high-ranking people back in Targaryen times, if TPaTQ is any guide. Yes, he was corrupt, but he _did _ know how to lead men of dubious morality, such as many on the Wall... and it wasn't by comically puffing himself up, etc. If he came in in a down-to-earth manner, would he have gotten more acceptance? I think so.

[-Winterfellian-]

The Bridge of Skulls. The high casualties stood out in the context of Jon's plan to attack the Thenns on the Kings Road and Mormont's plan (ok Qhorin/Smallwoood's) to attack the Wildlings on the march. Both quite confident that trained men can cut up much larger numbers of wildlings. Does the Bridge of Skulls mean that both are wrong or just that Bowen is a poor battle commander?

Jon wakes the sleepers with the blowing of a horn. I wondered if maybe we are wrong to think of the Joramon story as being something magical, maybe in origin it was simply something practical like this? (Yes I have been rereading Foucault's pendulum..!)

But anyway judging from Thorne's reaction the Horn of Winter seems to be a well known story in Westeros.

Am far from thinking of Marsh as an able battle commander, but I think the key element in all these instances is surprise. Mormont meant to surprise the wildings that were unlikely to expect such a high number of crows so deep into the forest, which was indeed the case. The surprise was also a key element in Jon's plan along with superior knowledge of the grounds.

In regards to the bridge of skulls, I have always considered it an ambush that Bowen fell into, just like he fell for the cat and mouse chase Mance staged for him so that CB was left deserted:

Bowen Marsh had chased the wildings all the way to the Shadow Tower, it seemed, and the farther, down into the gloom of the Gorge

I am inclined to think that it wasn’t a mere chase, but a rouse to get the NW to chase them in the first place only to ambush them in a territory where the wildings had the advantage later on. Mance mentions later that he knows hidden ways through the Gorge, so it makes sense that he shared this information with the person in charge of this mission. In any case, Mance’s knowledge by proxy ought to be greater than Bowen’s.

To me the fact that a more poorly armed and most likely undisciplined army inflicted such heavy casualties to the NW speaks of a sort of organized attack, as opposed to a bunch of wildings that got cornered into a final stand.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Do we know the size of the force the weeper had? NW heavy casualties but without knowing the kill ratio it's hard to call it a success or failure. Mance's plan is the same one as Robb's for Moat C, Mance wanted the NW to think the Bridge is the main plan so they don't even notice Castle Black

[Lady of Long Lake]

Is not really resistance but more that for me Jon's dreams of advancement were not merely product of ambition, but born our of a desire to prove that he could be as good a son to Ned as Robb. It wasn't merely a desire for power, just like his desire for WF is not fueled by the power being Warden of the North will grant him, but by a desire to be deemed worthy in the eyes of the Father. I read this not merely as ambition but as a desire for acceptance, hence why when surrounded by equals this dreams of advancement did not reoccur or become less apparent.

;)

This is so true and it comes to play in the next chapter, Jon X. When Jon is laying in the ice cells and is facing death, that is exactly his thoughts. But I don't want to get ahead!

[Elba the Intoner]

All I think of is just how much Yoren stank! Could that have been their secret weapon or would it have forced the men on the Wall to surrender? :laugh:

Good to see you again Elba!

Thanks Lummel! What a nice greeting. :)

Re: Slynt, I have a feeling that he is actually sabotaging himself, somewhat, with his insistance on a title that he held only briefly and no longer has a right to. It is not like he has no idea how to lead - after all, he rose from humble beginnings to command of the City Watch - a position that used to be occupied by high-ranking people back in Targaryen times, if TPaTQ is any guide. Yes, he was corrupt, but he _did _ know how to lead men of dubious morality, such as many on the Wall... and it wasn't by comically puffing himself up, etc. If he came in in a down-to-earth manner, would he have gotten more acceptance? I think so.

You could be right that if he had come in more humbly he would have had more acceptance. But this got me to thinking of Slynt's rise in the City Watch, starting from humble beginnings to a leadership position. My understanding from the Tyrion chapter where he removes Slynt is that Slynt was really LF's man. Slynt very willingly betrayed Ned in a manner that mimics LF. LF also rose from humble beginnings to a position of power and then put people like him in strategic positions that he could use to his advantage. Slynt's anatagonism towards Jon seems an awful lot like LF's disdain for the high lords that he feels snubbed him. Given all this, I get the feeling that Slynt would have had the same attitude towards Mormont as well.

[Lummel]

...Re: Slynt, I have a feeling that he is actually sabotaging himself, somewhat, with his insistance on a title that he held only briefly and no longer has a right to. It is not like he has no idea how to lead - after all, he rose from humble beginnings to command of the City Watch ... If he came in in a down-to-earth manner, would he have gotten more acceptance? I think so.

I can imagine Slynt as a bit of a geezer, a bloke's bloke, one of the lad's kind of thing so I can see that!

...In regards to the bridge of skulls, I have always considered it an ambush that Bowen fell into, just like he fell for the cat and mouse chase Mance staged for him so that CB was left deserted...

An ambush, yes that would make sense, and that I suppose would have been what Mormont and Jon had in mind for their opponents too

Do we know the size of the force the weeper had? NW heavy casualties but without knowing the kill ratio it's hard to call it a success or failure. Mance's plan is the same one as Robb's for Moat C, Mance wanted the NW to think the Bridge is the main plan so they don't even notice Castle Black

I'm not sure. My impression is that the Weeper's force in ASOS was relatively small, but in ADWD iirc he has quite alarge following, but by then things had changed a little. I think we get a little more detail on this in future chapters.

...this got me to thinking of Slynt's rise in the City Watch, starting from humble beginnings to a leadership position. My understanding from the Tyrion chapter where he removes Slynt is that Slynt was really LF's man. Slynt very willingly betrayed Ned in a manner that mimics LF. LF also rose from humble beginnings to a position of power and then put people like him in strategic positions that he could use to his advantage. Slynt's anatagonism towards Jon seems an awful lot like LF's disdain for the high lords that he feels snubbed him. Given all this, I get the feeling that Slynt would have had the same attitude towards Mormont as well.

I don't know about antagonism, my impression was that Slynt, what's the word, not quite a social climber, but the kind of person who admires those who are higher up in society than he is? He certainly was opposed to the Starks but then who knows how precisely Petyr sold the backstabbing to Slynt? I think that a healthy appreciation of how the political atmosphere of the court of King Joff would benefit House Slynt while how terminally unhealthy a Stannis Kingship would prove would have given Janos a sharp and intense dislike of 'treachery'.

The Lord Baelish-Slynt connection seemed a bit odd to me - how does the Master of Coin get to be so involved in running the City Watch? But never mind, perhaps there was simply a degree of blackmail with Littlefinger getting a cut of the kickbacks in return for keeping his mouth shut and supporting honest Slynt at Council meetings?

[Maia]

An ambush, yes that would make sense, and that I suppose would have been what Mormont and Jon had in mind for their opponents too

Except that while Jon's plan made sense, Mormont's didn't, IMHO. Disparity of numbers was just too great, nor does it seem likely to me that he would have been able to surprise the wildlings, who knew the land better than NW and had a lot of notable raiders and hunters in their ranks, not to mention skinchangers.

He certainly was opposed to the Starks but then who knows how precisely Petyr sold the backstabbing to Slynt?

Not sure that LF had to sell anything, given that Stannis wanted to have Slynt beheaded and to generally eradicate corruption in the City Watch. Ned never had a chance there. Of course, LF would have presented it to Cersei as a hard sell, I don't doubt ;). And he did arrange a lavish reward for Slynt... But then, he intended to use Slynt to kill Ned, it made sense to keep him sweet and not thinking too much about what LF wanted him to do, even if it went against Cersei's wishes.

Even for a more honest Commander, though, Ned had no proof of his alegiations and it was an open secret that he was in clinch with the Lannisters, so I doubt that the City Watch could have ever supported Ned for any honorable or principled reason. But with Slynt and Stannis, i was a forgone conclusion inany case.

The Lord Baelish-Slynt connection seemed a bit odd to me - how does the Master of Coin get to be so involved in running the City Watch? But never mind, perhaps there was simply a degree of blackmail with Littlefinger getting a cut of the kickbacks in return for keeping his mouth shut and supporting honest Slynt at Council meetings?

Money speaks? City Watch is involved in colection of taxes and kickbacks thereof? Slynt fits the profile of other LF's men - lower-born, but more competent than their noble predessors. But was Slynt competent? I'd think so - why would LF prop an incapable man?

Particularly since it should have been somewhat dificult to put a commoner in position that used to be occupied by royal princes under Targaryens (sometimes, at least).

Which is why Slynt's buffonery at the Wall seems a bit over-the-top to me. He should have known how to position himself as a leader without all the parvenu foolishness, nor should have Thorne, of all people, been inpressed by his ephemereal lordship and airs. As a result, Slynt made a much flatter opponent for Jon than he could/should have been, IMHO.

[Lummel]

Oh yes, Mormont may have grossly over estimated his chances, then again he seems to have expected that all or most of his command would die in the process. It could simply be that the Watch are over confident of their abilities with regard to the Wildlings. Qhorin seemed to think that running was a better option than fighting in ACOK, perhaps that was simply a more realistic approach.

I wouldn't have thought that Slynt would need to be particularly competent, the City Watch didn't strike me as a model proto-police force, what they are doing seems pretty basic. Man the gates, patrol a bit, beat a few people up as necessary, whistle occasionally that kind of stuff. Perhaps Slynt might have had to have drawn up some duty rotas but I shouldn't have thought there was much more to being commander of the city watch than that - oh, and taking bribes of course. :dunno:

Thorne isn't necessarily impressed by Slynt's airs. Whose idea was it to arrest Jon? I doubt Slynt would have been much bothered, presumably one or the other of them could have simply relived Jon of command. I imagine that it is Thorne who is using Slynt here to get some revenge for being shifted out from Castle Black in AGOT. I can believe that Slynt started off being a down to earth, salt of the earth type but presumably years of living large have become habitual.

I think the flat opponents charge is true of both Jon and Daenerys, even including Marsh, you can see where they are coming from but they are all clearly very limited and self-defeating characters. Perhaps Jon's opponents are flatter than Daenerys' - there at least we know that Daenerys' POV is limited and lacks experience, while Jon ought to know Thorne and Marsh. GRRM's use of Slynt I find a bit odd on the Wall. He doesn't come with great recommendations afterall. While he has experience of leading a city watch is the Night's Watch so short of barely average officers that Slynt gets to be in some authority at eastwatch fairly quickly? What does that tell us about Cottar Pyke?

[Maia]

I think the flat opponents charge is true of both Jon and Daenerys, even including Marsh, you can see where they are coming from but they are all clearly very limited and self-defeating characters. Perhaps Jon's opponents are flatter than Daenerys' - there at least we know that Daenerys' POV is limited and lacks experience, while Jon ought to know Thorne and Marsh.

Well, yes. Dany's opponents are often accused of being flat, and justly so, but frankly, on re-read I don't see more dimensions in Jon's opponents either ;). Except for Mance and Tormund, but they won't remain opponents for long. And, IMHO, YMMV, Bowen Marsh ;), but we'll come to him later.

GRRM's use of Slynt I find a bit odd on the Wall. He doesn't come with great recommendations afterall. While he has experience of leading a city watch is the Night's Watch so short of barely average officers that Slynt gets to be in some authority at eastwatch fairly quickly? What does that tell us about Cottar Pyke?

Yes indeed. Which is why the choice of wannabe noble buffon behavior for Slynt was doubly odd, IMHO and made him far less of a threat than he could have been coming as a down-to-earth experienced commander of men, who rose through the ranks of the City Watch of KL. I mean, it didn't work for him with Tyrion and Cotter Pyke should have hated it too, no?

And didn't Slynt mention that "the men" disliked Bywater for being prideful? So what did he do finding himself in NW, mostly composed of the lowborn men that would have to be convinced to follow him? Right.

I don't doubt that Slynt came full of stories about his influence at court and stuff, but how believable would they have been given that he himself was forced to take the Black? Not particularly, surely. Not before Tywin's letter that should have been a surprise to Slynt himself, too.

So, anyway, Slynt just didn't make for a believable or truly threatening enemy for Jon, as he clearly lost whatever skills and experience he had en route to the Wall. The "southern fool" theme, right.

Except that unlike Selyse's men, Slynt shouldn't have been that much of a fool. He rose too high from humble beginnings to have no talents and abilities whatsoever.

[Lummel]

Mayhaps we have been spoiled. Or perhaps it is because the daenerys and Jon POVs forced us to see the view point character vs A N Other, while elsewhere we slowly get a sense of people like Tywin or Varys as having rich and believable (if unpleasant) backgrounds and ways of being. I can't say I have much of a sense of Slynt as being anything more than full of himself and happy to give orders to kill babies or stab men in the back. He's rather like Marillon in the Tyrion/Sansa storyline - somebody designed to be dislikable. Perhaps rather like Marillon that is a reason to be cautious and double think what we see in the Jon vs Slynt storyline. But yes, presumably Slynt must have been sufficiently competent in some way even if only in the political skills of bribery, corruption and blackmail, to have got on in the city Watch in the first place. :dunno:

[Ragnorak]

Regarding Marsh and military prowess:

I think Mormont's attack that never happened on the Wildlings was a likely suicide or near suicide mission by design. The intent seemed to be to hamper the Wildling host and do enough damage such that its ability to threaten the Wall was diminished through deaths of key leaders, loss of supplies and general negative impacts on morale. A well disciplined force could very easily wreak havoc on undisciplined lines spread out over miles. How long they could do this and whether or not they could do this and make it back to the Wall alive is the question. Jon's thoughts about mounted rangers attacking the Thenns is far more realistic just based on the odds. Mormont was looking at attacking tens of thousands with hundreds. Jon's idea while similar in theory is far more realistic in circumstance and numbers. Jon was looking to ambush a force only two or three times larger but with discipline vs. the undisciplined, steel vs. bronze and bone, mounted vs. foot as well as surprise. Numbers would have been his only disadvantage.

These two examples serve to clue us in that Marsh does not think like this. He doesn't identify the gate as the key objective and falls for the various feints. The head to head battle at the Bridge of Skulls is a contrast to the back and forth innovation we see at Castle Black. The too few siege weapons and their lack of maneuverability demonstrate similar thinking. While that seems to be Marsh's direct department I think his Lord Commander is not innocent of this deficiency either.

Marsh is not a charismatic figure and later we'll see he gets the fewest votes of any candidate. He's a bit of a follower by nature and clearly views titles as mattering far more than merit or ability. His leadership aptitudes as a steward seem to run toward the managerial and assets rather than people. He gets the siege weapons fixed, his end of Tormund's passage runs smoothly, his counting skills or legendary even if mocked, but he doesn't even get the votes of a majority of his own stewards at Castle Black when it comes to being the next LC.

The dire situation at Castle Black is really do to foolishness on the part of Marsh. He fell for the feints, left no one in charge when he left, and he fought an unnecessary battle that prevented the return of reinforcements to Castle Black. He rode out to meet the foe instead of making the foe assault a well defended objective. This is a plot tool to create the dire and dramatic circumstances back where we have a POV. I think Martin is also deliberately rehabilitating his plot tool to an extent here. Later Marsh will manifest significant hostility toward the Wildlings. His personal injuries in this battle make that a far more sympathetic stance for him compared to the petty prejudice of someone who never faced them in battle or suffered at their hands. Even if a poor tactical choice, his valor in fighting the Wildlings mitigates what would be an inevitable sense of cowardice in his later anti-Wildling stands.

We have a contrast between Jon's taking charge at the end of last chapter and Slynt;s taking charge here. Jon's reluctance stands out against Slynt's eagerness. In essence it is a contrast between power for the glorification of the wielder and power as responsibility. Marsh eventually comes across as a somewhat sympathetic counter in his opposition to Jon because his motivations fall in line with seeking to have power used responsibly. The events of this chapter serve to insulate him from personal shortcomings that would otherwise undermine him. I think this is intentional on the author's part, but on the whole he's also put in far too much information to undermine Marsh's vision-- he did put the senile guy in charge during an all out Wildling invasion. I suspect the intended effect was to have Marsh represent the status quo compared to Jon's vision for the future and show a sympathetic side to the reluctance for change that wasn't based in a simplistic "Wildling racism." Looking at it this way we have an underlying battle amongst the status quo, selfish opportunists, and multiple visions of the future.

[butterbumps!]

Jon X

intermediary chapter notes

Tyrion X: On the last day of the trial (Shae’s testimony and then the Oberyn/ Gregor duel), Tyrion puts serious consideration into joining the Watch. He doesn’t trust Tywin to actually let him live to take the Black, but in the event Tywin can be trusted on this, Tyrion seems to be at peace with the idea.

Jaime IX: We see Tommen signing decrees rewarding the particpants in the RW, including one legitimizing Ramsay and one rendering Roose Warden of the North. We also see this “Arya” that was mentioned, about to depart for her marriage to Ramsay with a Bolton escort, which Jaime immediately recognizes as an imposter. Jaime refuses to keep the piece of Ice Tywin gave him, giving it to Brienne for the purpose of saving Sansa; I have curiosities about the significance of this act as a way to bridge the Lannister-Stark hostilities in the future, specifically, between Jaime and Jon.

Of particular relevance, Jaime makes note that Stannis has disappeared, and remarks that Tywin believes he’s fled to Dorne. Stannis’ arrival at the Wall seems a bit out of the blue, perhaps, but Jaime gives us a hint here that Stannis is up to something.

overview

After 4 days in an ice cell, Jon is brought before Slynt and Thorne to “treat” with Mance, who has indicated that he would like to talk. It’s soon revealed that they want Jon to be an assassin rather than an ambassador; he’s to kill Mance, which Thorne has worked out as being a double win: Aemon has been refusing to allow Jon to be executed, so Thorne’s worked this out to be an opportunity for Jon’s certain death.

Resigned to this fate, Jon sets out to be done with it. He’s brought to Mance, but before Jon has a chance to act, the two men discuss the broader situation both of their sides face. Understanding Mance’s rationale more clearly, Jon seems to change his mind about the assassination, and begins brainstorming options to make Mance’s “terms” possible. Before he can come up with anything, however, the wildling camp falls under attack, forcing Mance to go investigate. During the chaos that follows, Dalla goes into labor as Jon stands guard outside the tent, watching the battle. Stannis wasn’t in Dorne after all; he came to hold the Wall, and the chapter ends with men shouting his name.

observations

• Jon’s defense of Aemon could read as his own autobiography almost:

“Aye,” Slynt said. “A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?”

Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king’s son and a king’s brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing.

• Janos Slynt’s conviction that 1. Mance knows who he is, and 2. that Mance’s hearing of Janos’ arrival has any bearing on his plans is just comedic gold: “Mance Rayder wants to parley with us. He knows he has no chance now that Janos Slynt has come, so he wants to talk, this King-beyond-the-Wall.”’ Yes, Janos, I have absolutely no doubt Mance soils his pants at the mention of your name.
• Jon’s dry sense of humor appears during his interrogation with Slynt in his purposely obtuse repetition of Slynt’s demand for proper address:

“M’lord,” Janos Slynt reminded him. “You’ll address me—” “

I’ll go, my lord. But you are making a mistake, my lord. You are sending the wrong man, my lord. Just the sight of me is going to anger Mance. My lord would have a better chance of reaching terms if he sent—”

• Tormund makes a statement about Ygritte that might have some deeper implications: “Well, the hottest fires burn out quickest.” I think this might be apropos to Dany.
• Slynt specifically wishes to execute Jon by hanging, which is what Jon will initially command in DwD, Jon II, before choosing a block.

analysis

death + honor

Not for the first time, we see Jon contemplating and accepting the prospect of his own death. However, unlike his calm acceptance of it (perhaps even desire for it) during the Styr’s attack in Jon VII, he’s not at peace with the prospect. It’s not the dying he has a problem with; he accepts the dying itself without fear. Rather, his legacy troubles him:

When he looked straight down past his feet, the ground was lost in shadow, as if he were being lowered into some bottomless pit. Well, death is a bottomless pit of sorts, he reflected, and when this day’s work is done my name will be shadowed forever.

(As a side note, we get various perspectives on the nature of death, and Jon’s comparison to a “bottomless pit” is interesting: he understands death to be dark and endless, whereas, for example, the Faceless Men see it as an end, a static finish offering release from worldly suffering/ flux.)

Jon is mourning the fact that his impending death will prevent him from proving that he could overcome the bastard stereotype, in particular, that he’s instead proven bastards are “wanton” and “treacherous” by nature:

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

I should have stayed in that cave with Ygritte. If there was a life beyond this one, he hoped to tell her that.

He compares his legacy to that of Robb, remembered as a “hero king,” and the son who would make Ned proud. I think there’s irony here, though. Yes, Robb seems to be considered a hero king, but he was guilty/ accused of a certain degree of “wantonness” and “treachery” as well. And like Jon does at this interrogation by refusing to point out that other brothers regularly visit prostitutes in his defense, Robb put a woman’s honor over his own, compounding the apparent certainty of their fates, as well as mirroring Ned with regard to Lyanna.

Without knowing Ned’s promise to Lyanna or the choice Ned made in KL to forsake his honor to save his daughters, Jon is convinced his father would categorically admonish Jon’s manner of death. To cope, he tries to think on Qhorin’s mandate about death and honor to put this into a broader picture:

With Maester Aemon insisting on Jon’s innocence, Lord Janos had not dared to leave him in the ice to die. This was better. “Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe,” Qhorin Halfhand had said in the Frostfangs. He must remember that. Whether he slew Mance or only tried and failed, the free folk would kill him. Even desertion was impossible, if he’d been so inclined; to Mance he was a proven liar and betrayer.

He (probably rightly) believes that there’s no exit at this point; whether he successfully kills Mance or not, he’s going to die, lost to honor in the view of both the Watch and wildlings.

I think we can safely conclude that Jon had made the decision to kill Mance before facing him; that is, it was a done decision, as based on what Jon understood, killing him was necessary for saving the realm:

“You know nothing, Jon Snow,” Ygritte would have told him. I know that I am going to die, he thought. I know that much, at least. “All men die,” he could almost hear her say, “and women too, and every beast that flies or swims or runs. It’s not the when o’ dying that matters, it’s the how of it, Jon Snow.” Easy for you to say, he thought back. You died brave in battle, storming the castle of a foe. I’m going to die a turncloak and a killer. Nor would his death be quick, unless it came on the end of Mance’s sword.

…………..

Jon kept his face as still as ice. Foul enough to slay a man in his own tent under truce. Must I murder him in front of his wife as their child is being born?

Despite his grudging admiration for Mance, I think Jon does believe Mance is a true enemy to the realm at this point. But fighting Mance is one thing, assassinating him during a truce is abhorrent. Despite this, I think Jon was actually going to do it, and was willing to suffer the price of torture and infamy as punishment.

The connection between death and memory is pretty pervasive in the series, such as Sansa’s thinking that the saddest part of death is not being remembered or not achieving a sense of immortality in song. That’s more or less the heart of Jon’s conflict, but in his case, he’s struggling with the possibility that he’ll get immortality, but as a villain. I think there might be a fairly major comparison to Jaime’s 2 preceding chapters to this end in terms of his reflections on the White Book.

the calm before the storm

Jon’s conversation with Tormund as they walk through the “killing field” is extremely emotionally evocative, and, I wonder, a potential glimpse into what a dream for spring might look like (not literally the 7^th book, but a taste of post-apocalyptic truce). In this no man’s land of death, two representatives come together without personal malice, celebrating the worthy fallen on both sides together (Donal, Mag, Ygritte), and toasting to the promise of new futures (Munda and Longspear). I think this is one of the most bittersweet passages I can recall offhand.

hiltless swords and such

As Jon surveys Mance’s tent, assessing how he will manage the assassination, he realizes that Ygritte was mistaken about the Horn of Winter; Mance found it, and it’s sitting in a corner. Believing it is the real horn, Jon’s thoughts turn from following through on the assassination to considering the destruction of the horn as his main imperative.

Prior to this parlay, Jon understood that Mance could continue sending forces against the increasingly depleted Watch, and that the Watch would eventually fall. He also knew that Mance was aware of the Others and considered them a massive threat. And he believed that Mance hadn’t found the horn, though the fact that he was looking for a way to break the Wall is alarming in itself. I think Jon probably understood on some level that Mance was seeking protection, but that given the presentation of Mance’s plan as a conquest, Jon viewed Mance as an immediate public enemy and catastrophe to the realm in light of the Others’ return. It should be noted that this was enough for Jon to become determined to kill Mance, but it’s his belief in the horn’s authenticity, which renders Mance and even greater threat, is what stays Jon’s hand and compels him to listen.

Though the belief in the authenticity of the horn makes Mance an even more terrible threat, Mance’s explanations undermine this somewhat. Jon immediately cuts to the heart of the matter by asking why Mance hasn’t used it if it would grant him passage south as he desires. Dalla immediately reveals that despite having such a weapon, that the weapon shouldn’t be used:

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. “We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

Pressing forward, Jon asks why Mance doesn’t merely continue a few more attacks on the Wall, since they both know that this would result in the wildlings’ crossing. Mance gives a humanitarian answer that also underscores their shared threat, and reveals that he has already tried fighting it directly, confirming Osha’s account back in aGoT:

“Blood,” said Mance Rayder. “I’d win in the end, yes, but you’d bleed me, and my people have bled enough.”

“Your losses haven’t been that heavy.”

“Not at your hands.” Mance studied Jon’s face. “You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing.”

“The Others . . .”

“They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.”

“Nor you?”

“Nor me.”

Finally, Mance puts it together, revealing his true purpose, and once again Dalla speaks up, exposing the fact that blowing the horn represents their desperation:

“Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.” He touched the horn again. “If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . .”

“But once the Wall is fallen,” Dalla said, “what will stop the Others?”

Mance gave her a fond smile. “It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.”

I think there’s a few plays within plays here. Whatever else Mance might be doing, I do believe that his reveal here is genuine, that is, he tried fighting the Others and lost, and is now trying an exodus to safety behind the Wall. But firstly, I don’t think that was the true horn (which Tormund confirms in DwD). Meaning, I believe Mance was using this as a bargaining chip. And secondly, the interplay between the sight of the horn and Mance and Dalla’s obvious reluctance to use it is also kind of brilliant as a means of selling the fiction that it’s real.

Mance is trying to get protection from an institution that has seen them as enemies for thousands of years. Simply appealing to the Watch about sanctuary from their shared enemy is never going to work, so he tries to sneak in (the Jarl/ Thenn fiasco), launches direct assaults thinking it would be a much easier fight, and then finally attempts a more diplomatic route, with the horn acting as both threat and proof of Mance’s true purpose. The horn is what got Jon’s attention in the first place, so it was successful to that end. Then, the fact that Mance and Dalla reveal just how much they don’t want it blown does two things: speaks to the horn’s authenticity, as well as helps Mance sell the fact that they have a common enemy he’s already been defeated by and needs protection.

This gives Jon pause as he considers the effects of letting the wildlings through peacefully. Thinking on the lawlessness they’d bring to the realm, he asks:

“Are you a true king?” Jon asked suddenly.

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.”

Mance is claiming to be their chosen warrior leader, which doesn’t satisfy Jon. He presses on:

You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king’s peace and obey the laws?”

I think this line of questioning is really commendable on Jon’s part—they are the right questions to ask in this circumstance of peace negotiation, and offers insight on what Jon believes kingship entails: rule your friends and keep the peace.

Mance balks, letting him know that they intend to make their own laws and govern themselves, causing Jon considerable discomfort. Mance gives an ultimatum that he will blow the horn in 3 days time, tearing down the Wall if they aren’t allowed passage. Though unhappy by the fact Mance won’t bend, and unhappy with the ultimatum, he tries to figure out a way to let them through peacefully. He knows that a peaceful resolution won’t be met as long as Thorne and Slynt are in charge, and despite knowing Mance doesn’t truly want to blow the horn, Jon doesn’t want to take chances with a desperate man:

A thousand thoughts flickered through Jon’s head. If I can destroy the horn, smash it here and now . . . but before he could begin to think that through, he heard the low moan of some other horn, made faint by the tent’s hide walls.

Though Jon is interrupted by Stannis’ attack before coming to a full resolution, I believe Jon had made a few decisions: abort the assassination, break the horn, and let the wildlings get through as they inevitably would with a few more attacks. It would keep the Wall in tact, and wouldn’t rely on the open-mindedness of the current leaders of the Watch. Though he’s “saved” from action by Stannis’ arrival, I don’t think the overall consequence was much different, save his own execution.

In terms of the horn’s authenticity, I believe another clue it’s a fake is the fact that no one cared about the horn at all—either in terms of protecting or using it—during this major attack.

[Julian Rayne]

I agree about the Tormund/Jon conversation. I thought it was one of the most poignant moment in the the series.

Why are the Watchmen allowing Slynt to act as though he has any kind of authority?