The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Milk of the Poppy Mug
Game of Thrones Milk of the Poppy Mug
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Who is the best military commander in fire and ice?


  • Please log in to reply
294 replies to this topic

#1 Bannerman of Winterfell

Bannerman of Winterfell

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:16 AM

1. Tywin lannister - everyone agrees he's a great field commander and we also see him win some bone crushing victories in the book- blackwater, green fork, reynes, tarbecks. But his struggle with robb stark and the fact that he was numerically and strategically stronger in all those battles make it difficult to easily name him the best. He did however earn my respect when he withdrew his army to harrenhal and plundered the riverlands with light cavalry to lure stark to him and earned my doubts when he blindly chased robb to the westerlands and nearly got trapped

 

2. Randyll tarly- everyone says he's one of the best generals but we haven't really seen lord baldy in any real action except ashford.

 

3. Robb stark- alexander the great of westeros. Continuously defeated superior forces in dire strategic situations( whispering woods and so on....), master of surprise and deception and an extraordinary military mind. He defeated tywin lannister and jaime lannister in battle at the age of 16!

4. Stannis baratheon- Probably the most underrated character of the series. He has the best track record of any men in this. Always the underdog and always the victor.( siege of storm's end, castle black ) . Plus he's also a great admiral, defeating the iron fleet( the best sailors in the world even if not the best ships), capturing dragonstone, old wyk.

Plus he has one thing on his history no one else on this list has- he has personally fought in battles.

Robb and tarly have fought in several battles, but no mention of tywin with sword but stannis outdoes them all in personal valor, the mirror image of Richard the 3rd

 



#2 GallowsKnight

GallowsKnight

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,871 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:23 AM

Stannis look at his CV:

 

 

Pre-Robert's Rebellion
-Underwent the standard military training all noble sons receive

Robert's Rebellion - The Beginning

-Might have been at Summerhall (we know Robert returned to Storm's End after the battle)

-Siege of Storm's End. Held against the entire the might of the Reach for a year. This doesn't show any tactical abilities, but it does show he has experience with rationing and maintaining discipline for a long period of time. Also understands what it's like to be on the defensive side of a siege. We know from Donal Noye that there was some fighting either Storm attempt or Sortie.

-Took Dragonstone. This achievement is lessened as the men of Dragonstone were possibly ready to abandon the Targaryans (Viserys is an unreliable source) and the Targ Fleet had been damaged/destroyed by Storm. But when it's spoke it's still "the taking of Dragonstone", not the "unconditional surrender of Dragonstone". Show Stannis is capable of organzing and carrying out a siege. Even if the enemy surrendered quickly

The Greyjoy Rebellion - The rise
-Smashed the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle. A pretty considerable achievement to beat the Ironborn at their own game. Proves his Naval prowess. Now naval and ground combat are very different but there are leadership characteristics that crossover, discipline, logistics and ability to adapt under pressure.

-Subdued Great Wyk. He may not have been at Pyke but we know he took the largest of the Iron Islands in Robert's name. We don't know what fighting occurred. There might have been more naval combat, combat on land or even more sieges.

The War of Five Kings - The Fall and Return
-Storm's End - Got into a terrible military position but only under the direction of prophecy. Made the best of it dug in and positioned himself to advantage (the whole sunlight thing gets exaggerated but it still helps) - No result

-The Battle of Blackwater - Coordinated a combined land and amphibious assault on the capital. Appointed his naval commander politically which was a mistake. But even with all of Tyrion's tricks (chain and wildifre), he almost took Kingslanding. Defeated by an army of nearly 80k and a "ghost". Still managed a fighting retreat to his boats and to get away with 2k men. Defeated but able to fight again and learn from mistakes. Also talks about using "Lightbringer" here to those who doubt his martial involvement.

-The Battle of Castle Black - Landed an army, forced marched them North of the Wall to shatter a wilding army many times his own numbers. Yes they had poor disclipine, but also Mammoths and giants. Use of Night's Watch men to lure Widlings and separate cavalry columns to divide and shatter the wildings.

-The taking of Deepwood Motte - Not much to say here. He had greater numbers and more experienced numbers. Still orchestrated the Siege quickly, covertly and effectively.

To be determined:
-The Battle of Ice - Won't discuss this as it's a WOW spoiler, but again making the best of a terrible situation.
 



#3 DaarioKnowsBest

DaarioKnowsBest

    Council Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,663 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:26 AM

Halfman! Halfman!


And I'm going to just throw this in to upset Stannis fanboys. Dany is undefeated

#4 Minsc

Minsc

    and Boo the miniature giant space hamster.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,187 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:28 AM

4. Stannis baratheon- Probably the most underrated character of the series. He has the best track record of any men in this. Always the underdog and always the victor.( siege of storm's end, castle black )

 

I seem to recall Stannis losing this major battle at the end of ACOK.  Moreover, I don't see how he is was the underdog at Castle Black when it was his armored knights vs Wildling rabble.



#5 TORMUNDSMEMBER10

TORMUNDSMEMBER10

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 233 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:32 AM

Robb or stannis. Tywin is far far overrated as a commander.

#6 Ahura Mazda

Ahura Mazda

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:33 AM

Imho it is a little too difficult to state something like that given the little information provided to us through the books.

 

What I do not agree is that Tywyin is a great war master. The first fight he puts against Bolton's forces is cleverly thought in the way he displaces his forces, but imho it is not brilliant. I mean, I would have thought of something similar and I don't have any military preparation. That guy is very much overrated.

 

Robb had some good ideas, yet he borrowed a lot from his own people. Some would say that makes you a great military commander, some others would not. I recognize he exploited at his best the forces he had, yet he failed somewhat to detect betrayal developing since a long time in his lines and did not make accordingly smart choices in other sectors of his life, which for a military commander are not independent at all.

 

I don't know, maybe nobody is a great military commander nowadays in Westeros. Some are better than others, that's all.


Edited by Patroclo Picchiaduro, 08 November 2013 - 03:33 AM.


#7 Ours if the Fury

Ours if the Fury

    'Ours is the Fury'

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,265 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:34 AM

Stannis

Tywin 

Randyll 

Eddard

Barristan 



#8 PrinceHenryris

PrinceHenryris

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:41 AM

Ned Stark

#9 Matoro

Matoro

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 476 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:42 AM

Robb was always underdog and didn't lost a battle. He kept beating Jaime and Tywin, and both of them had more troops than him. He was certainly a military mastermind. His weakness was politics and betrayal, just like Ned's.

 

Stannis in extremely diverse commander with good sense of strategy and ability to keep his men disclipined.

 

Tyrion also really knows what he's doing. If he wouldn't been organizing defense of King's Landing, Stannis might had actually took it before Tywin/Tyrell reinforcements.

 

Tywin also knows about strategy and he rules in politics. He knows how to win wars, not battles.

 

I don't know if Dany can be called "military commander", but she is undefeated. She has cunning and she understands strategy. She crushed three ancient and walled slaver cities in a short time without even army first.

 

Randyll is pretty wild card. He is always said to be a great soldier, but he haven't had a change to show that yet.

 

Jeor Mormont, Blackfish, Barristan and Victarion have also shown some skill in battle.


Edited by Matoro, 08 November 2013 - 03:43 AM.


#10 Ted Chang

Ted Chang

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 168 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:47 AM

In terms of actual battles and the story as I have read it, Robb Stark by some distance. I believe that GRRM intentionally has made the point that being great on the battlefield and shit off it doesn't make for a good king.



#11 Riptide

Riptide

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 419 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:49 AM

1. Tywin lannister - everyone agrees he's a great field commander and we also see him win some bone crushing victories in the book- blackwater, green fork, reynes, tarbecks. But his struggle with robb stark and the fact that he was numerically and strategically stronger in all those battles make it difficult to easily name him the best. He did however earn my respect when he withdrew his army to harrenhal and plundered the riverlands with light cavalry to lure stark to him and earned my doubts when he blindly chased robb to the westerlands and nearly got trapped

 

I would rank Tywin as a fair commander to be generous. We know next to nothing about his rebeliion crushing; he may have had almost the whole Rock on his side, or just the lands ruled directly from Casterly Rock. His Green Fork effort was okay; he won and inflicted serious casualties on the enemy, but his plan was exceedingly transparent (the single envelopment is almost the first thing you learn in tactics 101) and of course failed. He got pummeled by an outnumbered enemy at the Red Fork, by Edmere Tully no less, a commander so bad that when massing the power of the Riverlands against a 15,000 strong army his host gets shattered while the enemy takes minimal losses. I disagree he was following Robb into the Westerlands; if he was he would take the Gold Road. it's far more likely that he was trying to besiege Riverrun to try and lure Robb Stark back out. The Blackwater was not really an acheivement; the battle was almost all won by the vanguard, which Tywin did not command, and team Joffrey had 4X the number of troops that Stannis did.

 

2. Randyll tarly- everyone says he's one of the best generals but we haven't really seen lord baldy in any real action except ashford.

 

One of the best soldiers actually. Quite the contrary, he tested himself at Duskendale and won due to odds overwhelmingly in his favor. He was commanding a part of the 60,000 strong Reach army that went to King's Landing, we don't know how much, but it's sure he outnumbered the 3000 Northern troops. (The other ones didn't do anything until the siege of Storm's End months later, so they could spare plenty.) The enemy had few to no cavalry, yet despite the odds he suffered heavy casualties and significant forces survive before Ser Gregor meets up with them on their retreat.

 

3. Robb stark- alexander the great of westeros. Continuously defeated superior forces in dire strategic situations( whispering woods and so on....), master of surprise and deception and an extraordinary military mind. He defeated tywin lannister and jaime lannister in battle at the age of 16!

 

While Robb (unlike the first two) is good his skill seems to come mostly from listening to good advice, namely from his grand-uncle Bryden, the mastermind behind the north's campaign. I would put the Blackfish as the best commander in Westeros, followed closely by JonCon, who takes a strong if ill-defended castle with just four men lost.


Edited by Riptide, 08 November 2013 - 04:58 AM.


#12 shearstone

shearstone

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 539 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:51 AM

I'm going to go with Ned although It's a stretch due to lack of information. 

 

His accomplishments:

Beat Jon Connington at the battle of the bells.

One of the main leaders at the Trident (I doubt Robert was doing a lot of commanding whilst hammering his way to Rhaegar.

Put in charge of the army to head to KL (He must have been one of the best commanders they had as they didn't know Tywin had turned against Aery's so Ned must've been expecting a fight or at least a siege and was heading there expecting to win)

Once again placed in charge of the army to relieve Storms End, again  the Tyrell's have the most men in the 7K's. The Tyrell's could have declared for Visery's so Ned must have been prepared for a fight and you don't march to a battle without a belief you can win. 

Saw through Tywin's strategy in the Riverlands. 

 

I think Stannis will be up there after Winterfell and he's certainly the best Naval Commander but he hasn't excelled himself on Land. Beat peasants with armoured knights and Deepwood Motte he had numbers on his side.



#13 David Selig

David Selig

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,594 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:54 AM

 Tywin is all about the PR. Really hasn't done much to deserve a top place.

 

4. Stannis baratheon- Probably the most underrated character of the series.

I see you haven't been here for long. ;)


Edited by David Selig, 08 November 2013 - 05:01 AM.


#14 Riptide

Riptide

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 419 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:00 AM

I'm going to go with Ned although It's a stretch due to lack of information. 

 

His accomplishments:

Beat Jon Connington at the battle of the bells.

One of the main leaders at the Trident (I doubt Robert was doing a lot of commanding whilst hammering his way to Rhaegar.

Put in charge of the army to head to KL (He must have been one of the best commanders they had as they didn't know Tywin had turned against Aery's so Ned must've been expecting a fight or at least a siege and was heading there expecting to win)

Once again placed in charge of the army to relieve Storms End, again  the Tyrell's have the most men in the 7K's. The Tyrell's could have declared for Visery's so Ned must have been prepared for a fight and you don't march to a battle without a belief you can win. 

Saw through Tywin's strategy in the Riverlands. 

You convinced me he's good, which I didn't think before.



#15 Nictarion

Nictarion

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,467 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:01 AM

Randyll Tarly

#16 Free Northman

Free Northman

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,399 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:05 AM

Eddard.



#17 Seņor de la Tormenta

Seņor de la Tormenta

    Sellsword King

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,590 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:08 AM

Stannis look at his CV:
 
 
Pre-Robert's Rebellion
-Underwent the standard military training all noble sons receive

Robert's Rebellion - The Beginning
-Might have been at Summerhall (we know Robert returned to Storm's End after the battle)
-Siege of Storm's End. Held against the entire the might of the Reach for a year. This doesn't show any tactical abilities, but it does show he has experience with rationing and maintaining discipline for a long period of time. Also understands what it's like to be on the defensive side of a siege. We know from Donal Noye that there was some fighting either Storm attempt or Sortie.

-Took Dragonstone. This achievement is lessened as the men of Dragonstone were possibly ready to abandon the Targaryans (Viserys is an unreliable source) and the Targ Fleet had been damaged/destroyed by Storm. But when it's spoke it's still "the taking of Dragonstone", not the "unconditional surrender of Dragonstone". Show Stannis is capable of organzing and carrying out a siege. Even if the enemy surrendered quickly

The Greyjoy Rebellion - The rise
-Smashed the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle. A pretty considerable achievement to beat the Ironborn at their own game. Proves his Naval prowess. Now naval and ground combat are very different but there are leadership characteristics that crossover, discipline, logistics and ability to adapt under pressure.

-Subdued Great Wyk. He may not have been at Pyke but we know he took the largest of the Iron Islands in Robert's name. We don't know what fighting occurred. There might have been more naval combat, combat on land or even more sieges.

The War of Five Kings - The Fall and Return
-Storm's End - Got into a terrible military position but only under the direction of prophecy. Made the best of it dug in and positioned himself to advantage (the whole sunlight thing gets exaggerated but it still helps) - No result

-The Battle of Blackwater - Coordinated a combined land and amphibious assault on the capital. Appointed his naval commander politically which was a mistake. But even with all of Tyrion's tricks (chain and wildifre), he almost took Kingslanding. Defeated by an army of nearly 80k and a "ghost". Still managed a fighting retreat to his boats and to get away with 2k men. Defeated but able to fight again and learn from mistakes. Also talks about using "Lightbringer" here to those who doubt his martial involvement.

-The Battle of Castle Black - Landed an army, forced marched them North of the Wall to shatter a wilding army many times his own numbers. Yes they had poor disclipine, but also Mammoths and giants. Use of Night's Watch men to lure Widlings and separate cavalry columns to divide and shatter the wildings.

-The taking of Deepwood Motte - Not much to say here. He had greater numbers and more experienced numbers. Still orchestrated the Siege quickly, covertly and effectively.

To be determined:
-The Battle of Ice - Won't discuss this as it's a WOW spoiler, but again making the best of a terrible situation.
 

Im going with this guy. He knows.

#18 BerserkZR

BerserkZR

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:37 AM

Randyll Tarly :bang:



#19 Tetrarch42

Tetrarch42

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 512 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:46 AM

Im going with this guy. He knows.

 

Yup.



#20 mighty potato

mighty potato

    Катюша's guardian

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,174 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:52 AM

I seem to recall Stannis losing this major battle at the end of ACOK.  Moreover, I don't see how he is was the underdog at Castle Black when it was his armored knights vs Wildling rabble.


rabble or not 20 to 1 is 20 to 1 and some were giants and mammoths ,so no, this was very impressive

tywin is blown way out of proportion ,he was a master political leader but not that great of a general (he underestimates his enemies like he did with robb and was duped into a position where he was practically defeated if it where not for our dramatic plot) tywin got his asses handed to him by robb

we really don't know anything conclusive about tarly except that he won and indecisive battle against Robert ,he might be great and he might be overrated but i cannot judge from what we know of him

and i think Ned must have known a thing or two about battles having won two wars in his time ,more than most would see in their entire lives

and Robert definitely deserves to be up there with the best ,battle was his bread and butter