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Jaqen asking the names of those he kills?


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#1 Starkside of the Force

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:20 AM

I could give a whole kerfuffle of text on his backstory and what he does etc. etc, but everybody at this point knows who he is.

 

Jaqen is a faceless assassin. A sect of people who worship death, and provide it in return for the thing you value most. (you must value you the persons death more than anything else in other words)

 

His description is identical to that of the Alchemist (Hooked nose, Black curly hair, scar on right cheek)

 

He uses a citadel apprentice to steal a lead key which supposedly opens every door in the citadel.

 

His name; the Alchemist is a pun (The lead key he trades for a gold coin - lead into gold, Alchemys ultimate pursuit)

 

I dont care to speculate what he is after, but the unusual thing that jumps out at me, is that Jaqen breaks faceless assassin rules. He is only allowed to kill those who do not tell him their name, Jaqen actually asks Pates name, then kills him afterward (presumably poison) 

 

Pate is perfectly fine and talking to Samwell Tarly at a later date in the story when Sam goes to the Citadel, but Sam has a strange dislike to him. 

 

Why would Jaqen break the rules of the Faceless contracts? And they do not accept Contracts which do not result in the death of someone, It sounds like he is rogue, or serving an ulterior motive.

 

Sidenote: Id like to see Arya and Jaqen meet again, both rogue, or one trying to kill the other.



#2 AntZ

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:32 AM

Jaqen's story about Red God demanding 3 kills is completely bullshit. He wanted to impress Arya and give the coin to her. Other than this, Arya was transformed into a squirrel in Harrenhal when Jaqen came. So he wanted to raise her spirit, giving her self confidence and passing her the coin.



#3 Blutraven

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:32 AM

It's commonly believed that he's looking for details on how to kill Dragons and that could necessitate taking more lives.



#4 tommystinker

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:52 AM

Interesting.

Never thought of him going rogue always thought he was on some mission.

Read a good theory that he was sent to kill ned and that why he was on route to the wall.

Why was he traveling to the wall and why has he headed to the citidel??
Has he completed the mission re the wall or is the person he was supposed to kill at the wall now at the citidel?? sam?? surley not!! and why....

#5 Matoro

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:55 AM

Pate is perfectly fine and talking to Samwell Tarly at a later date in the story when Sam goes to the Citadel, but Sam has a strange dislike to him. 

 

Pate at the end of AFfC probably isn't Pate from the prologue. He says to Sam "Pate, like the Pig Boy", even though prologue-Pate hated all references to the Pig Boy. Jaqen is a FM so he would've easily took Pate's face and is now with Sam.



#6 The Weirwoods Eyes

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:11 AM

Have always thought jaqen is a rouge, I think he gave Arya the coin to get her out of Westeros because he really liked her & it was clear half the realm where after her and the other half would kill her as soon as spit on her as they saw her as just some scrufy small folk child. Giving her the coin gets her out of esteros and away from the dangers. 

Jaqen has his own agenda I think he's a former faceless man and like him Arya will use the training to her own ends. 

I really don't think the FM are some omnipresent force who are manipulating the world. I think they just kill folk for money.



#7 Thendel

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:40 AM

OP, I think you have misundestood "the rule of knowing": A Faceless Man cannot accept a contract on someone they know. For rather obvious reasons, they still need to learn the names of their contract, but as long as they did not know them personally before accepting the contract, they are not breaking the rule. Hence Jaqen did not break that particular rule when he asked Pate his name.



#8 Le Cygne

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:36 AM

Knowing their name is obviously not a problem:

 

Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.”

 

Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl  …   she makes a jest.”

 

“You swore. The gods heard you swear.”

 

“The gods did hear.” There was a knife in his hand suddenly, its blade thin as her little finger. Whether it was meant for her or him, Arya could not say. “A girl will weep. A girl will lose her only friend.



#9 kiasyd

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:42 AM

I recently started a thread to try to explore how FM contracts actually work: http://asoiaf.wester...-men-contracts/

 

While thinking about this, I reached the same conclusion as you: Jaqen/Alchemist behaviour doesn't match the lessons Arya is getting from the Kindly Man so, I agree with you: Either Jaqen is a rogue FM or the Kindly Man is lying... Perhaps both.



#10 Jon of the Dead

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:16 PM

Knowing their name is obviously not a problem:

 

 

I've always find this part a bit strange. I mean, I thought the FM were truly "no one" and they had to forget their names. So Jaquen wasn't that guy's real name, right? It was just an identity he assumed. So why was he so scared when Arya named him?

 

Ugh, the FM are so weird. But yes, Jaquen wasn't playing by the common rules in Harrenhal



#11 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:17 PM

Mayhaps there is more than one FM faction?



#12 kiasyd

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:37 PM

Mayhaps there is more than one FM faction?

 

I proposed that as well in the aforementioned thread, since the small council seems quite sure that hiring a FM to kill Dany is just a matter of coin.



#13 Glenn of House Patrick

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:46 PM

Mayhaps there is more than one FM faction?

FM Wolfpac vs FM Hollywood :fencing:



#14 Le Cygne

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:50 PM

I've always find this part a bit strange. I mean, I thought the FM were truly "no one" and they had to forget their names. So Jaquen wasn't that guy's real name, right? It was just an identity he assumed. So why was he so scared when Arya named him?

 

Ugh, the FM are so weird. But yes, Jaquen wasn't playing by the common rules in Harrenhal

 

I think maybe he got stuck with his default identity.  He's really Jaqen (like she's defaults back to Arya).  He's using glamors.



#15 Jon of the Dead

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:17 PM

 

I think maybe he got stuck with his default identity.  He's really Jaqen (like she's defaults back to Arya).  He's using glamors.

 

This is interesting. I hadn't considered that maybe he really was Jaqen



#16 The Crow's Third Eye

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:57 PM

Jaqen's story about Red God demanding 3 kills is completely bullshit. He wanted to impress Arya and give the coin to her. Other than this, Arya was transformed into a squirrel in Harrenhal when Jaqen came. So he wanted to raise her spirit, giving her self confidence and passing her the coin.

The Red God bit bugs me. The FM don't serve the Red God, the serve He of Many Faces. The Red God to me implies R'hllor. This does bug me



#17 kiasyd

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:01 PM

The Red God bit bugs me. The FM don't serve the Red God, the serve He of Many Faces. The Red God to me implies R'hllor. This does bug me

 

The most popular interpretation, is that the Red God is important to Jaqen, not to the FM who is using Jaqen's identity.



#18 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:23 PM

Have you guys checked my avatar? Jaqen cleary has the "Death Note". He can kill with only the name. It is known.



#19 bemused

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:44 PM

This is pretty complicated , but first off, I think because she's at the inductee level , Arya learns rules that are set for her ( or any other beginner ) but which may be bendable depending on the situation for a full fledged FM. Elite FM must surely have the leeway to use their discretion in unusual circumstances.( Like top level spies in other societies.)

 

I agree that the "3 lives for the red god" is BS. But Jaqen has put himself in an impossible situation by swearing to kill whoever Arya names. The FM do honour all gods, but especially him of many faces.. and he has just sworn by all the gods , old and new ( placing his hand in the mouth of the Heart Tree, the most sacred thing present ). All the gods would include the many faced god...Whoever Jaqen is ,as a FM , he would take that sacred oath very seriously. But Jaqen H'Gar is already dead.

 

I happen to think the FM in question only became Jaqen after the fire at the holdfast where the original Jaqen died... But even if I'm wrong , and he set out from Braavos as Jaqen , the real Jaqen is dead. So, I think under the circumstances , he would have no choice but to kill himself. That's the Jaqen Arya means, but if he had not sworn, it could have been easily resolved by simply faking his death and changing his identity. But he has sworn.

 

The FM certainly don't fear death , but he has a mission to fulfil. I believe he has bent the rules to help Arya in the first place ( personal feelings getting in the way of his ethics) and he doesn't want his whole mission to fail. This may affect many lives and perhaps the survival of Braavos itself , depending on the nature of his mission.

 

ETA: I agree he's using glamours, but I think his default identity / appearance is the Alchemist.


Edited by bemused, 08 November 2013 - 02:52 PM.


#20 Le Cygne

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:29 PM

This is interesting. I hadn't considered that maybe he really was Jaqen

 

Yeah, and I think maybe that explains all the detail about his appearance.  All the hair washing, there's twice that we know about.  Arya notices, he's still all scruffy in the ratty clothes, but he took the time to wash his hair.  Then later in the bathhouse.  The bathhouse attendant was so attentive, Arya gave up waiting for her to leave.  The girls giggling in admiration, he seemed used to the attention.  My little theory, anyway.  He has to be someone, underneath it all.