Dothraki Weaponcraft

[Mithras]

Giving expensive gifts to a bully all the time is not a good trade if you can stop that bully having a gun. Free Cities, Slavers, Qarth. These nations are bigass merchants. It is in their power to prevent any import of weapon material to the Dothraki. Therefore it is not possible that the Dothraki depends on importing skill and material for making their weapons. If you look at the history, all the warrior nations in the world basically have greater weapon producing capacity than the nations they defeated.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Since when do the Dothraki defeat anybody but the Lhazareen and each other?

[paladin24]

Since when do the Dothraki defeat anybody but the Lhazareen and each other?

Good question...

Remember, their awesome military prowess is such that they, a cavalry army, were famous for repeatedly frontally charging an army of disciplined spearmen because you know, things like using brains or tactics are unmanly and unworthy of true warriors, or something.

[Matoro]

Since when do the Dothraki defeat anybody but the Lhazareen and each other?

Well I guess if they would been easily defeatable, Free Cities would fight them instead of giving tribute to them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That's already turning in the debate whether the Dothraki are militarily capable at all. Which is kinda more of a lecture since it repeats about twice per week. No. they aren't.

The Free Cities pay them off because it's several magnitudes cheaper and completely riskless instead of mostly riskless on a military level and a catastrophy on the economical level.

[Iona]

That's already turning in the debate whether the Dothraki are militarily capable at all. Which is kinda more of a lecture since it repeats about twice per week. No. they aren't.

The Free Cities pay them off because it's several magnitudes cheaper and completely riskless instead of mostly riskless on a military level and a catastrophy on the economical level.

I'd say this could be a great example of "power residing only where men believe it resides"... :)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'd say this could be a great example of "power residing only where men believe it resides"... :)

True, especially for Dany. She's lead to believe the Unsullied and the Dothraki to be outstanding warriors/soldiers, missing all the clues GRRM left for the reader. And then they will be curbstomped in their first real battle.

[Mithras]

The arakhs presented in the TV series are quite different than the blades in the books. TV series show it as a modified kopesh whereas the arakhs in the books look like this.

The arakh described in the books resembles Turkish sword kilij very much. These swords are the ancestors of all the single edged curved blade swords in the world. They are designed for mounted warfare because they give superior advantage while slashing your way on a horse through enemy lines. You may have a look at this for demonstration purposes.

The main problem with straight swords is that it tends to struck in enemy's armor or shield. A long curved sword is very effective in fighting at horseback.

The Turkish kilij is made from pattern welded top quality steel, hence light, sharp, durable and it has a great improvement over other curved swords. At the tip of the sword, there is yalman, a wider section about 30 cm with a pointy end and double edged blade. This increases the efficiecy of the sword a lot.

The point of this discussion is that a military nation requires a well-established production line of superior arms. This is a historical fact.

[lamna]

There is something that none of you have mentioned. Their swords don't matter.

The Dothraki are nomadic horse archers. Their strength is in their ability shoot from horseback, to fight only when they choose too.

That's their main weapon, and all you need is horn, sinew, wood, feathers and something pointy to make arrowheads from. The Mongols didn't conquer half most of Eurasia because they had nice swords. The Huns and Avars didn't make Rome tremble with their swords. The Manchu didn't conquer China with their fancy blades.

It's all about having a mobile archer.

But getting back to their swords. Even if the maesters have really messed up time keeping, Essos has had iron weapons for thousands of years. Swords don't just disappear. There are going to be a huge amount of old swords in Essos that can be recycled into arakhs with very little skill.

[Ser Lepus]

There is something that none of you have mentioned. Their swords don't matter.

The Dothraki are nomadic horse archers. Their strength is in their ability shoot from horseback, to fight only when they choose too.

That's their main weapon, and all you need is horn, sinew, wood, feathers and something pointy to make arrowheads from. The Mongols didn't conquer half most of Eurasia because they had nice swords. The Huns and Avars didn't make Rome tremble with their swords. The Manchu didn't conquer China with their fancy blades.

It's all about having a mobile archer.

But getting back to their swords. Even if the maesters have really messed up time keeping, Essos has had iron weapons for thousands of years. Swords don't just disappear. There are going to be a huge amount of old swords in Essos that can be recycled into arakhs with very little skill.

Swords that were actually used for battle didn't last long. They got damaged, they broke, they got rusted, and eventually had to be reforged into new weapons, The dothraki need new swords all the time.

As I said earlier, they probably keep slave blacksmiths from the people they raid, and may even make them train new blacksmiths among the new slaves they capture, or allow them to have children that will become blacksmiths when they grow.

And of course, people like the Ghiscarians probably give them swords as part of the payment for the slaves they bring.

[Skoboe]

There is something that none of you have mentioned. Their swords don't matter.

The Dothraki are nomadic horse archers. Their strength is in their ability shoot from horseback, to fight only when they choose too.

That's their main weapon, and all you need is horn, sinew, wood, feathers and something pointy to make arrowheads from. The Mongols didn't conquer half most of Eurasia because they had nice swords. The Huns and Avars didn't make Rome tremble with their swords. The Manchu didn't conquer China with their fancy blades.

It's all about having a mobile archer.

But getting back to their swords. Even if the maesters have really messed up time keeping, Essos has had iron weapons for thousands of years. Swords don't just disappear. There are going to be a huge amount of old swords in Essos that can be recycled into arakhs with very little skill.

Yes and no.

Yes - their main tactic would likely be scything attacks using mounted archers.

No - because just about every rider has an arakh.

IRL I'm a metallurgist/engineer...my secondary metallurgy is a bit dusty, but the making of arakhs has always interested me (not that I feel it's important enough for GRRM to go into detail about).

If the arakh is as depicted in the TV series...kind of like a big kopesh, then the making of it would have to be via stock removal. That is, making a very rough sword that is bigger than needed, then shaping it down to the desired size by grinding, filing and polishing. The metal would be poured into moulds in batches then sent to the polishers.

This method worked great for copper and bronze weapons, but was terrible for steel as the casting was homogenous...one could go for a high carbon mix which gave a sharper edge but made the weapon quite brittle, or go for less carbon to make it springy but required sharpening every day.

To be able to use this method, the Dothraki smiths would need to have tool-grade files and grinders to shape the weapon.

If the arakh is more like a scimitar then it could be forged and welded correctly so that your hardest steel was on the edges with the spring steel on the sides and back. There would be no coarse grinding required this way, just sharpening and polishing.

Re-melting forged swords would not work as you'd simply be homogenising the mix and end up with steel that would only be good for making pots out of.

In order to make the steel (either method) there would need to be four things available though;

1. A source of iron ore (duh)

2. A source of carbon and limestone - there are no big old forests in the Dothraki Sea so it would have to be coal (no mention of coal mines is there?). Carbon turns the iron into steel, and limestone is a flux needed to take out impurities.

3. A fuel source and forge...coal again could be used, but most forges I've seen aren't easily carted around by horses.

4. Grinding media to polish and maintain a cutting edge (katanas were discussed above...the various sharpening stones and powders were just as precious as the swords themselves!).

Again, I don't think it's important enough for the author to explain it, but it's interesting :)

[Gneisenau]

hahaha, glad bright blue eyes is on the case here. Katanas are probably the most overrated thing ever.

And metal armor is vastly underrated.

[Jasta11]

It seems pretty silly of the Essosi to give weapons to the Dothraki all the time. No matter how good their bows are (and I don't imagine them being top-quality, they don't seem to have the tech of even Ancient-era steppe warriors), they still need cold steel if they want to be anywhere close to militarily capable. But I guess that's how Slaver's Bay pays for their ''merchandise'', and the Dothraki probably aren't interested in much except weapons.

Then again, the Dothrakis as a whole require big suspension of disbelief. I don't care how fertile the Dothraki Sea is, feeding Drogo's Khallassar would be a logistical nightmare of incredible proportions. A single column of 40 000 warriors, at least double the horses if not triple, and about 30-40K women/children/eldery? I shudder to think the amount of ressources this would require, and that's just one Khalassar, and they're nomads with no agriculture or settlements of any kind (even the Mongols had massive sheep herds and didn't live in such numbers). Or how a people with military technology and tactics that predates the enemies of ancient Egypt (including no siege weapons of any kind) can possibly be a threat to late Medieval-era cities with walls and big ports.

[Jon Flowers]

Yes and no.

Yes - their main tactic would likely be scything attacks using mounted archers.

No - because just about every rider has an arakh.

IRL I'm a metallurgist/engineer...my secondary metallurgy is a bit dusty, but the making of arakhs has always interested me (not that I feel it's important enough for GRRM to go into detail about).

If the arakh is as depicted in the TV series...kind of like a big kopesh, then the making of it would have to be via stock removal. That is, making a very rough sword that is bigger than needed, then shaping it down to the desired size by grinding, filing and polishing. The metal would be poured into moulds in batches then sent to the polishers.

This method worked great for copper and bronze weapons, but was terrible for steel as the casting was homogenous...one could go for a high carbon mix which gave a sharper edge but made the weapon quite brittle, or go for less carbon to make it springy but required sharpening every day.

To be able to use this method, the Dothraki smiths would need to have tool-grade files and grinders to shape the weapon.

If the arakh is more like a scimitar then it could be forged and welded correctly so that your hardest steel was on the edges with the spring steel on the sides and back. There would be no coarse grinding required this way, just sharpening and polishing.

Re-melting forged swords would not work as you'd simply be homogenising the mix and end up with steel that would only be good for making pots out of.

In order to make the steel (either method) there would need to be four things available though;

1. A source of iron ore (duh)

2. A source of carbon and limestone - there are no big old forests in the Dothraki Sea so it would have to be coal (no mention of coal mines is there?). Carbon turns the iron into steel, and limestone is a flux needed to take out impurities.

3. A fuel source and forge...coal again could be used, but most forges I've seen aren't easily carted around by horses.

4. Grinding media to polish and maintain a cutting edge (katanas were discussed above...the various sharpening stones and powders were just as precious as the swords themselves!).

Again, I don't think it's important enough for the author to explain it, but it's interesting :)

Very well put explanation. As for the form of the Arakh, I have heard Martin say (I don't recall where) that he envisioned them more as central Asian style sabres/scimitars rather than as kopeshes. This makes sense because a kopesh seems like a rotten weapon for a horseman to me, just as a sabre is tailor made for one.

[lamna]

The quality of the bows is probably pretty high. I don't think it's mentioned what sort they are, but even primitive Scythian bows work perfectly well.

And they are a threat to these great cities because you can't grow crops inside them. The Dothraki can swoop in from the steppe and cut your city off from your farmland and steal all your labour. If you send an army out against them, then the Dothraki can withdraw faster than you can advance, and they can fight while they do so.

Swords are sidearms. Pistols don't win battles, neither do swords.

Very well put explanation. As for the form of the Arakh, I have heard Martin say (I don't recall where) that he envisioned them more as central Asian style sabres/scimitars rather than as kopeshes. This makes sense because a kopesh seems like a rotten weapon for a horseman to me, just as a sabre is tailor made for one.

Real khopesh are very different from the Show-arakh. They are one-handed and the blade is on the outward curve. Think sabre, not sickle.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The quality of the bows is probably pretty high. I don't think it's mentioned what sort they are, but even primitive Scythian bows work perfectly well.

Actually, they are lousy. The Golden Company uses three kinds of bows: Essosi/Dothraki bows, Westerosi yew longbows and the goldenwood (might be misspelled) longbows of the Summer Islanders. With a distinct quality difference in ascending order.

[E-Ro]

And metal armor is vastly underrated.

Yeah, the idea that you can slash or pierce plate with a sword is a very common and annoying trope. It takes blunt force trauma or going for a gap in the armor to kill someone in plate.

[lamna]

Actually, they are lousy. The Golden Company uses three kinds of bows: Essosi/Dothraki bows, Westerosi yew longbows and the goldenwood (might be misspelled) longbows of the Summer Islanders. With a distinct quality difference in ascending order.

They are different things. Longbows are infantry weapons made from a single piece of wood, while composites bows are made from lots of different materials. Longbows are easier to make and stronger, but they are big things, as tall or taller than their user. Composite bows are much more compact and easier to use on horses.

Warfare isn't about having the very best weapons, it's about having something that's functional. Perfect is the enemy of Good.

I don't quite understand the confusion, it's not exactly a secret that steppe peoples can defeat settled people for a time. The Dothraki have been on top for 400 years or so, which is a long time for steppe peoples but not ridiculous.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They are different things. Longbows are infantry weapons made from a single piece of wood, while composites bows are made from lots of different materials. Longbows are easier to make and stronger, but they are big things, as tall or taller than their user. Composite bows are much more compact and easier to use on horses.

Warfare isn't about having the very best weapons, it's about having something that's functional. Perfect is the enemy of Good.

I don't quite understand the confusion, it's not exactly a secret that steppe peoples can defeat settled people for a time. The Dothraki have been on top for 400 years or so, which is a long time for steppe peoples but not ridiculous.

Of course they are different weapons. But that doesn't change the fact that they have different levels of effectiveness.

And the Dothraki have been "on top" (such as they are), because they haven't fought a war for 400 years. Quohor was the last battle not against the pacifistic Lamb Men or each other!

[Sansa_Stark]

Actually, they are lousy. The Golden Company uses three kinds of bows: Essosi/Dothraki bows, Westerosi yew longbows and the goldenwood (might be misspelled) longbows of the Summer Islanders. With a distinct quality difference in ascending order.

Source?

Where does it say Westerosi yew longbows have greater range/quality than the dothraki??