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Cersei's prophecy


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#1 Rhienne

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:12 AM

I have a question with regards to the prophecy that Cersei gets from Maggie.  I have been trying to figure out who the younger and more beautiful person who would take everyone that was dear from her was, but there seem to be problems with all the candidates that I can come up with:

 

Daenerys Targaeryen

+ more beautiful

+ could take Tommen away from her/kill him

+ could take Myrcella away from her/kill him

+ could take the Iron Throne away from her

- didn't contribute to Joffrey's death

- didn't contribute to Jaime abandoning her

 

Margery Tyrell

+ contributed to Joffrey's death

+ taking Tommen away from her

+ could take the Iron Throne from her (as Tommen's Queen)

+/- difficult to see how she could take Myrcella away from her

- didn't contribute to Jaime abandoning her

- not more beautiful

 

Sansa Stark

+ more beautiful

+ contributed to Joffrey's death

+ part of reason for Jaime's abandonment of Cersei

- difficult to see how she could take Tommen from her/kill him

- difficult to see how she could take Myrcella from her/kill her

- difficult to see how she could take the Iron Throne

 

So who is it!?

 



#2 Lord Grumkin

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:19 AM

You forgot Arianne, who will probably marry fAegon (I don't think he will wait for Dany)

I believe that Margery will die soon, or leave. Maybe her trial won't go so well. I think Sansa would never ever want to step into King's Landing again.


Edited by Lord Grumkin, 08 November 2013 - 07:23 AM.


#3 Ahura Mazda

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:28 AM

I think it has to be Margaery, because she's the only one who had been involved with both two of her own children. Yet, Margaery won't last long too.



#4 MotherMerciless

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:29 AM

Myrcella herself is included by some in this list, even with her scar.

#5 Kungsmurfen

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:36 AM

What makes you think Margaery isn't more beautiful than Cersei? The Tyrells might get rid of Myrcella if she starts to cause problems or Ceersei will believe that Myrcella is dead and blame Margaery. That's what I believe anyway. 

 

And I don't think Jamie abandoning her has much to do with who the young queen is.



#6 BearIslander

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:40 AM

At one point in AFfC, Cersei looks at Margaery and thinks how she's not more beautiful but just younger and fresher, like any peasant wench can be handsome in a certain age. According to laws of female logic, these thoughts are a clear indication that Margaery IS more beautiful than Cersei.



#7 Manderly's Rat Cook

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:55 AM

What makes you think Margaery isn't more beautiful than Cersei? The Tyrells might get rid of Myrcella if she starts to cause problems or Ceersei will believe that Myrcella is dead and blame Margaery. That's what I believe anyway. 

 

And I don't think Jamie abandoning her has much to do with who the young queen is.

Indeed, I think Cercei is the only one to compare Margaery's looks to her own, and concluding that Margaery is pretty, but not as beautiful as she is, however Cercei is also clearly jealous of Margaery, so her judgment isn't the most reliable. Cercei's judgment aren't the most reliable in general anyway ;)

 

I'm leaning towards Sansa or Arya, because I think Margaery and Danaerys are too obvious. I'd like it to be Arya, because she's a sort of reïncarnation of Lyanna, who's death enabled her to become queen, but who also is (in her eyes) the reason she wasn't happy with Robert. It would be quite ironic.



#8 Manderly's Rat Cook

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:57 AM

At one point in AFfC, Cersei looks at Margaery and thinks how she's not more beautiful but just younger and fresher, like any peasant wench can be handsome in a certain age. According to laws of female logic, these thoughts are a clear indication that Margaery IS more beautiful than Cersei.

Haha being a woman I can confirm this is true. It is known.



#9 Frozentree

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 08:00 AM

I don't think that the "take all that you hold dear" part means that whenever Cersei loses something she holds dear it must be the YMBQ's doing. It is not like Cersei is immune to harm and only the chosen one can hurt her. Bad things happen, even to Cersei, the YMBQ will come at the end, taking all that remains to her and then the Valonquar will finish her.

 

edit:

I'm leaning towards Sansa or Arya, because I think Margaery and Danaerys are too obvious. I'd like it to be Arya, because she's a sort of reïncarnation of Lyanna, who's death enabled her to become queen, but who also is (in her eyes) the reason she wasn't happy with Robert. It would be quite ironic.

My favorite argument. I think Margaery is someone's bastard, because her being Mace's daughter seems too obvious.

Spoiler


Edited by Frozentree, 08 November 2013 - 08:06 AM.


#10 MotherMerciless

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 08:04 AM

Indeed, I think Cercei is the only one to compare Margaery's looks to her own, and concluding that Margaery is pretty, but not as beautiful as she is, however Cercei is also clearly jealous of Margaery, so her judgment isn't the most reliable. Cercei's judgment aren't the most reliable in general anyway ;)
 
I'm leaning towards Sansa or Arya, because I think Margaery and Danaerys are too obvious. I'd like it to be Arya, because she's a sort of reïncarnation of Lyanna, who's death enabled her to become queen, but who also is (in her eyes) the reason she wasn't happy with Robert. It would be quite ironic.


Arya is not known for being beautiful, not yet at least. Maybe as you say, she might grow into a beautiful woman like Lyanna was. Depends on how long it will be until the prophecy comes true, if it does at all.

#11 Manderly's Rat Cook

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 08:26 AM

Arya is not known for being beautiful, not yet at least. Maybe as you say, she might grow into a beautiful woman like Lyanna was. Depends on how long it will be until the prophecy comes true, if it does at all.

Yes I know, but it seems like she's growing more beautiful, but doesn't realise it herself. The Kindly Man calls her beautiful. I actually think she's been quite beautiful for a while, but it just didn't really show, because she's such a tomboy. The important female characters who are younger than Cercei and beautiful are Margaery, Daenaerys, Sansa and potentially Arya and Arianne. Since Margaery is not a POV I'm pretty sure she won't be the one taking all that Cercei has left from her. It could be any of the other four, but I personally hope it'll be Sansa or Arya, because of how much Cercei has personally wronged them. I'd like for them to have their vengeance. 



#12 Kevvy

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:44 AM

I'm going totally out on a limb here and saying Jeyne Westerling will be the YMBQ - just can't help thinking there'd be some poetic justice in that.



#13 Iona

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:41 PM

At one point in AFfC, Cersei looks at Margaery and thinks how she's not more beautiful but just younger and fresher, like any peasant wench can be handsome in a certain age. According to laws of female logic, these thoughts are a clear indication that Margaery IS more beautiful than Cersei.

 

Spot on!

 

Also, during her walk of shame even Cercei seemed to realize there's some sagging and stuff going on, so I bet if they did a street survey in KL, Marg would win hands down.



#14 aceluby

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:56 PM

Her children will die is part of the prophecy.  That everything will be taken by this younger more beautiful person is another part.  That her children are part of everything she holds dear is a pretty big assumption.  She seems to have contempt for Tommen and rarely even thinks of Myrcella, much less seems to be a part of what she holds dear.  Because of this I don't think that this younger more beautiful person has to have anything to do with her children's deaths. 

 

What does she hold dear?  Power as queen and power as heir to Casterly Rock.  The question then becomes who is more beautiful and has the ability and opportunity to take that away.  There are lots of possibilities and this is one of my favorite prophecies in the books.



#15 Petyr Patter

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:57 PM

Your list is a little... lacking.

 

I recommend this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...autiful-queens/ .



#16 Slender Aimry Hill

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:01 PM

I think I want it to be Brienne the Beauty, though am not going to provide logistics as yet...



#17 StarkofWinterfell

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:07 PM

If the build up of the first couple books is any indication, it will be Sansa.



#18 Rahgh Neqaj

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:35 PM

It is not one prophecy but actually three prophecies:

  • "When will I wed the prince?" she asked.
    "Never. You will wed the king."

  • "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.
    "Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

  • "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.
    "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you." The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Mixing up those three prophecies would be a big mistake. The first prophecy is boring (from our POV as ASOIAF readers) and already taken care of.

 

The second prophecy simply states that the queen to cast her down will be younger and more beautiful at the time of the down cast and will take all that Cersei holds dear at that time. The interesting parts of this is neither younger nor more beautiful but the down casting and the taking of everything that Cersei holds dear. But it could well be that at the time this new queen comes Cersei doesn't have anything but the IT left to hold dear. Maggy the frog may be deliberately misleading here as she initially did not want to make any prophecy but was forced to by Cersei.

 

The third part tells her that her children will die before her and be buried in royal garb. The interesting points here are that apparently all three of her children will wear a crown - at the moment Joffrey and Tommen have been crowned but not Myrcella yet unless one counts Arianne's folly - and that a little brother (valonqar) will kill Cersei. The crown for Myrcella would be indeed an interesting twist as it would pretty much imply that Margery leaves KL at one point or another unless she get's blamed for Tommen's death. On the other hand, again I wouldn't trust Maggy the frog too much.

 

Final advice:

 

Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.



#19 RoamingRonin

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:46 PM

Margaery seems like the prime candidate. When you think about it, she's always been a competitor to Cersei even before she was betrothed to Joffrey. Renly wanted Robert to marry her and set Cersei aside. Then he married her to gain the Tyrells. Then Joffrey, now Tommen. Margaery seemed to be destined to be a rival queen to Cersei.

Cersei tells Jaime that Tommen is all that she has left. Tommen is the only child she has in King's Landing and the key to her power. If Margaery wins Tommen, that's one part of the prophecy fulfilled. 



#20 Slender Aimry Hill

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:49 PM

I have a strong feeling that 'when your tears have drowned you' is important and underexamined