Craster: The reason the others came back?

[rodrik Cassel]

. The Wildlings delved too greedily and too deep. They sought the horn but found something else. You know what they awoke in the darkness of the Lands of Always Winter...shadow and ice.

Drums, drums in the deep. They are coming...

Wrong forum bro..

[Borsabil]

Indeed they are. And thats where the whole story collapses most thoroughly.

Its difficult, nay impossible, to believe they would actually know such a thing, even if it were true.

So, we know that the Others are inhuman and alien (they melt into water when stabbed with dragonglass! and their speech sounds like ice breaking). We have seen no evidence of 'baby' Others, or 'kid' Others, and no evidence of them being able to feed a small child and keep it alive in their icey world (indeed, we've seen extreme-cold-experienced humans frozen to death in their sleep by the icy cold the Other's bring).

So how do the son's become Others?

Some ritual of magic or something you say? So how do the wives know of it? I cannot imagine an even slightly credible scenario that has the Others inviting the wives, or even Craster, to witness such a ritual, or tell them about it. So no knowledge of any such ritual then.

And how to 'know' that a man-sized Other was once a specific tiny human baby only days old? No credible way.

And if they aren't believing such a thing from true knowledge, its almost certain that its false, even if they believe it.

Oh the wife believes exactly what you say, no doubt. But there's just no credible way it could be true knowledge. So what it almost certainly is is a pyschological defense mechanism. "We don't murder our babies at all, we give them to the gods and they become gods. Its really not such a bad thing..."

If there is one thing that can drive a mother to any sort of desperate measure, including rising up against Craster, its murdering her babies. A mother's drive for her progeny is a very powerful thing. Craster is wise to have a way to temper that.

Sure. But I just can't see, nor has anyone brought forward, a credible way for the wives to know that.

Instead most people just offer an uncritical acceptance of a beyond fantastical claim made by one person who is in a truly desperate situation.

Martin does fantasy, but its real, gritty, fantasy, easily believable.

I would very much like to see a reasonable explanation for the sons becoming Others, and the wives truly knowing about it, but until someone can think of one I cannot see any other acceptable explanation than that the old wife's claim is merely part of the same pyschological falsehood as the 'pact'.

How can a teenage girl live through a blazing inferno and emerge with baby dragons hatched from fossilized eggs? Does that make sense? We know next to nothing about the Others, all we have to go on is what GRRM has chosen to write in the text, which isn't much. Here is maybe the only time that Martin has decided to write about the fate of the infants, yes perhaps he's chosen to send out a red herring to the reader, but until he writes something different this is the only concrete evidence we have, whether or not you believe the witness is credible or not. So yeah I'm thinking a magical explanation for the kids survival and transformation, after all why on earth would the Others be interested in taking baby humans in the first place? And telling mothers that their children have been transformed into ghoulish ice monsters doesn't seem a good strategy for keeping them happy, just saying.

[corbon]

How can a teenage girl live through a blazing inferno and emerge with baby dragons hatched from fossilized eggs? Does that make sense?

Sure. Dragons are magical and magic happens. But the human context always makes sense. Dany walked into the fire with the dragon eggs and sacrifices and some magic happened.But everything around the magic made sense from a human perspective - even her actions which were built up to with her feeling the eggs were alive, and feeling they responded to fire in the brazier, and dreams and her desperate situation and family history etc etc.

We know next to nothing about the Others, all we have to go on is what GRRM has chosen to write in the text, which isn't much. Here is maybe the only time that Martin has decided to write about the fate of the infants, yes perhaps he's chosen to send out a red herring to the reader, but until he writes something different this is the only concrete evidence we have,

The whole point is that it is extremely far from concrete.

Martin uses realistic unreliable narrators - always people who have a reasonable reason to believe what they do (or lie deliberately), whether they are right or wrong.

In this case, there is no reasonable way for it to be accurate, yet a very reasonable way for the witness to believe it is true.

It also runs contrary to the other evidence he provides about the Others.

They are inhuman and alien, and don't even speak with human sounding noises. They've never communicated with any other human we've heard of. Yet here they have a complex arrangement with Craster... They've killed or tried to kill every other humans they meet with, yet here they don't because they have some special arrangement with humans (which apparently is how their race is made!), not just because Craster's Keep is a place where they don't yet have the strength, or plan, to take. They need the babies to make more Others, yet sheep make perfectly acceptable substitutes in their 'deal'.

None of that adds up.

whether or not you believe the witness is credible or not. So yeah I'm thinking a magical explanation for the kids survival and transformation, after all why on earth would the Others be interested in taking baby humans in the first place?

Sure, a magical explanation is possible.

But there is no way the wives would know about it if it was true.

Therefore its almost certain (unless by some freakish happenstance the humans here simply made something up and it just happened to be true - I think we can safely dismiss that possibility!) that the wife's statement is a believed untruth - whether from Craster or the wives' collective minds.

And that means its not even fragmentary evidence of anything about the Others.

And telling mothers that their children have been transformed into ghoulish ice monsters doesn't seem a good strategy for keeping them happy, just saying.

He's not. They are gods - the "old, cold gods".

"Your sons are a necessary sacrifice to the gods, to keep us safe, but its ok, the gods take them and they become gods themselves"

is certainly a much better strategy than

"I'm not having your sons grow up to challenge me so I'm taking them into the woods to die."

Its even a much better strategy than

"The cruel cold gods will kill us all but if I sacrifice your baby sons to them them will let us live"

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Oh come on people don't ruin my fun! :)

But seriously Ygritte said their search for the Horn awoke things. I just made the comparison to The dwarves awakening the Balrog,

[Borsabil]

Sure. Dragons are magical and magic happens. But the human context always makes sense. Dany walked into the fire with the dragon eggs and sacrifices and some magic happened.But everything around the magic made sense from a human perspective - even her actions which were built up to with her feeling the eggs were alive, and feeling they responded to fire in the brazier, and dreams and her desperate situation and family history etc etc.

The whole point is that it is extremely far from concrete.

Martin uses realistic unreliable narrators - always people who have a reasonable reason to believe what they do (or lie deliberately), whether they are right or wrong.

In this case, there is no reasonable way for it to be accurate, yet a very reasonable way for the witness to believe it is true.

It also runs contrary to the other evidence he provides about the Others.

They are inhuman and alien, and don't even speak with human sounding noises. They've never communicated with any other human we've heard of. Yet here they have a complex arrangement with Craster... They've killed or tried to kill every other humans they meet with, yet here they don't because they have some special arrangement with humans (which apparently is how their race is made!), not just because Craster's Keep is a place where they don't yet have the strength, or plan, to take. They need the babies to make more Others, yet sheep make perfectly acceptable substitutes in their 'deal'.

None of that adds up.

Sure, a magical explanation is possible.

But there is no way the wives would know about it if it was true.

Therefore its almost certain (unless by some freakish happenstance the humans here simply made something up and it just happened to be true - I think we can safely dismiss that possibility!) that the wife's statement is a believed untruth - whether from Craster or the wives' collective minds.

And that means its not even fragmentary evidence of anything about the Others.

He's not. They are gods - the "old, cold gods".

"Your sons are a necessary sacrifice to the gods, to keep us safe, but its ok, the gods take them and they become gods themselves"

is certainly a much better strategy than

"I'm not having your sons grow up to challenge me so I'm taking them into the woods to die."

Its even a much better strategy than

"The cruel cold gods will kill us all but if I sacrifice your baby sons to them them will let us live"

We really don't know what Craster might, or might not, have said to his wives/daughters. All we have to go is what's written in the text. Your ideas of what is or isn't feasible might be perfectly reasonable, but in a magical fictional universe we have to bear in mind that anything is possible. Like dead people walking, necromancy, wargs, magic swords and of course badass ice people and fire breathing dragons. So to say it's not possible that the Others would take human children and transform them in some way is WAY too much of a stretch for me.

What do we know? We know that the women have witnessed the visits of the Others, the old woman talks about "the white cold's rising" a clear reference to what happens when the Others are near. We know they think that the Others have taken their children and turned them into monsters. We know that they're scared of them and are desperate for Gilly and the baby to leave with Sam, hardly a signifier that they've been told that 'it's an honor from the Gods'. No I think that little paragraph in a SoS is very important to this aspect of the story, or else why would GRRM include it? There had just been a massive brawl in Craster's keep, multiple people murdered, rape aplenty. If George had wanted to think of a reason why Gilly should go with Sam it wouldn't have been hard, instead it's the Others the women choose as the reason Gilly has to go.

[corbon]

We really don't know what Craster might, or might not, have said to his wives/daughters. All we have to go is what's written in the text. Your ideas of what is or isn't feasible might be perfectly reasonable, but in a magical fictional universe we have to bear in mind that anything is possible. Like dead people walking, necromancy, wargs, magic swords and of course badass ice people and fire breathing dragons. So to say it's not possible that the Others would take human children and transform them in some way is WAY too much of a stretch for me.

I don't say that at all.

I say that its entirely possible that that could happen, but its not feasible that the wives would know about it.

Therefore their 'claim' that it happens is not evidence of it happening at all.

While the magical side of the story could have many variables we can't predict, the human side of the story is very much realistic and as predictable as a story set in our own world (which is to say mostly predictable, with some surprises that have good explanations afterward).

1000:1 Craster keeps his wives as ignorant about the outside world as he can. Including the Others.

What do we know? We know that the women have witnessed the visits of the Others, the old woman talks about "the white cold's rising" a clear reference to what happens when the Others are near.

We know they think that the Others have taken their children and turned them into monsters. We know that they're scared of them and are desperate for Gilly and the baby to leave with Sam, hardly a signifier that they've been told that 'it's an honor from the Gods'.

I didn't say it was an honour, or a good thing, just thats its an option that lets the wives have an mental 'escape' from having to admit to themselves that they are placing their own safety ahead of their babies lives.

No I think that little paragraph in a SoS is very important to this aspect of the story, or else why would GRRM include it? There had just been a massive brawl in Craster's keep, multiple people murdered, rape aplenty. If George had wanted to think of a reason why Gilly should go with Sam it wouldn't have been hard, instead it's the Others the women choose as the reason Gilly has to go.

If there was some way that could explain how the women could actually know that information, that the Others are their sons, then I'd agree with you. But until some explanation that makes sense - from a human perspective, not a magical one - explains the wive's knowing this, it means that this passage is just realism (and misinformation) on GRRMs part. Thats what the wives believe, so they follow through their beliefs and motivations with actions that fit. And GRRM messes with our heads.

[Dagon]

Not at all, but I wonder at whether they are sacrificing the infants, or if that is how they restore their ranks.

[Petite Psycophant]

I don't think the actions of any one person can bring the Others back into the world.

Exactly!

No, definitely not.

First, the entire reason they were searching for the Horn is the Others.

- the Others were beating the individual wilding tribes

- then Mance reunited the wildlings

- the Others were still winning over the reunited wildlings

- Mance led the wildlings to the barrows to search for the Horn in order to have something to blackmail the Nights Watch into letting the wildlings through the wall (safe on the other side from the Others)

Ygritte is a fairly junior pleb and doesn't know much about this stuff, but Mance explained it to Jon later. Clearly what they supposedly 'released' was nothing to do with the Others, since the Others were already around, already beating them and they already knew to take precautions she doesn't mention (like burning bodies etc).

Second, what Ygritte thinks was released was 'shades' - ie incorporeal spirits of the dead.

Note that this fits with the Stark (same gods, similar culture, same First Man origins) belief that the iron swords and tombs prevent the restless spirits of the dead from bothering the living.

Note also that there is no perceived or mentioned or prepared for actual effect of these shades being released.

Its probably nothing more than a typical anti-grave-robbing superstition common to virtually all cultures that created tombs for their dead and included grave-goods. If there is any mystical reality to it, it clearly has had no actual effect anyone can perceive.

I agree with this 100%. The sole reason Mance was chosen king and was gathering wildlings is because The Others became a thread to them. That's why there were those escaping south ( who didn't join Mance). Osha and her gang for example.

I don't think that one guy sacrificing his kids is going to bring back an entire race of sentient supernatural humanoids. Plus, the Others would have likely come back before Craster starting making sacrifices, otherwise he would having originally been sacrificing his kids for no reason until they actually came back to receive those sacrifices.

If anything, I think the death of the dragons may have something to do with the return of the Others. I know that happened 150 or so years before the events of the series, but maybe it just took a while before the Others marshaled their strength again. Considering that the Others may live incredibly long lives, 150 years might be nothing to them.

This is also true. The Others stirred again and wildings were being slaughtered, some joined Mance some tried to make their way south and Craster decided to leave out sacrifices for them in the hopes to be left alone. I too believe that the fact that the dragons were gone is what helped either to precipitate or trigger the return of The Others. I f the return of dragons make magic stronger then their disappearance probably caused an imbalance which in favor of the Wightwalkers.

Oh come on people don't ruin my fun! :)

But seriously Ygritte said their search for the Horn awoke things. I just made the comparison to The dwarves awakening the Balrog,

See Corbon's post I quoted. It's more likely it was just superstition. And the wildings were already on the run from The Others.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Oh well. Then it was fated to happen.

You should have acted! They are already here. The old tales warned of their return. In the time after the Targaryens fell. When the sons of Westeros would spill their own blood. But no one wanted to believe. Believe they even existed. And when the truth finally dawns, it dawns with the Cold Winds. But, there is one they fear. In Asshai Tongue he is Azor Ahai, The Last Hero!

[Borsabil]

I don't say that at all.

I say that its entirely possible that that could happen, but its not feasible that the wives would know about it.

Therefore their 'claim' that it happens is not evidence of it happening at all.

While the magical side of the story could have many variables we can't predict, the human side of the story is very much realistic and as predictable as a story set in our own world (which is to say mostly predictable, with some surprises that have good explanations afterward).

1000:1 Craster keeps his wives as ignorant about the outside world as he can. Including the Others.

I didn't say it was an honour, or a good thing, just thats its an option that lets the wives have an mental 'escape' from having to admit to themselves that they are placing their own safety ahead of their babies lives.

If there was some way that could explain how the women could actually know that information, that the Others are their sons, then I'd agree with you. But until some explanation that makes sense - from a human perspective, not a magical one - explains the wive's knowing this, it means that this passage is just realism (and misinformation) on GRRMs part. Thats what the wives believe, so they follow through their beliefs and motivations with actions that fit. And GRRM messes with our heads.

I think Craster told his wives that the Others were taking the babies to establish his control, this IMO is very believable. Here was a guy, surrounded by how many women?, who he raped and left their male children to die, for all they knew. Why didn't they just kill him in his sleep? Because they were shit scared. I think it's very likely that Craster would have shown his women exactly what happened to the babies as the Others came to collect them, or else how would they know about the 'white cold rising'? This one woman in particular was speaking from experience. You say that it's impossible for the women to KNOW that the Others were taking their babies? No I think it's highly feasible that Craster would have been well motivated to show them exactly that. Is it impossible for the women to KNOW exactly what they were doing with their babies? Yes, there I agree with you, the only thing they would have known for sure in regards to the fate of the babies is that the Others were taking them, beyond that what Craster chose to tell them. If Craster was telling them the truth, and I don't really see much reason for him to lie, then yes that does give us some insight into who and what the Others really are.

One last thing, you stated in a previous post

They are inhuman and alien, and don't even speak with human sounding noises. They've never communicated with any other human we've heard of.

You've forgotten the story of the Night's King, a human male shacked up and boinking a female Other for years. Now too be fair it may be purely a fairy tale, though I doubt it, but if true there is an example of a human communicating and in fact having intimate relations with an Other. So yes it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities that Craster managed to work out some kind of a deal, you're making assumptions about the Others that is not supported by the text IMO. Just because the Others haven't attempted to talk to any of the characters in the books, so far, does not mean they're incapable of doing so.

[corbon]

I think Craster told his wives that the Others were taking the babies to establish his control, this IMO is very believable. Here was a guy, surrounded by how many women?, who he raped and left their male children to die, for all they knew. Why didn't they just kill him in his sleep? Because they were shit scared.

Agreed.

I think it's very likely that Craster would have shown his women exactly what happened to the babies as the Others came to collect them, or else how would they know about the 'white cold rising'?

Shown? Not credible. No way the Others are letting any human in on whatever they do with the babies - assuming that its something to do with making more Others of course.

This one woman in particular was speaking from experience. You say that it's impossible for the women to KNOW that the Others were taking their babies? No I think it's highly feasible that Craster would have been well motivated to show them exactly that.

What experience? That The Others have sometimes been seen from afar? That when they are seen a fierce and unnatural cold occurs? That Craster takes the baby sons (or sheep) into the woods and returns without them, and that some of those times coincide with the Other's being around?

Sure. But more than that? Highly unlikely and no need. Thats enough to match all of the data they'e given us and fits the restricted and controlled lifestyle Craster provides them with..

Its no more credible Craster would know.

He could certainly have told them that, but that would be just him making shit up to keep them in line. There is no credible way the Other's are going to let Craster see their magical rituals to make new Others, assuming they have any.

Is it impossible for the women to KNOW exactly what they were doing with their babies? Yes, there I agree with you, the only thing they would have known for sure in regards to the fate of the babies is that the Others were taking them, beyond that what Craster chose to tell them.

Right. So it comes down to what Craster told them.

If Craster was telling them the truth, and I don't really see much reason for him to lie, then yes that does give us some insight into who and what the Others really are.

I don't see any reason for him to tell them the truth!

I don't see any way he could know such a truth!

What is it about Craster that entices you to believe he uses the truth as a default when no one can gainsay him?

You've forgotten the story of the Night's King, a human male shacked up and boinking a female Other for years. Now too be fair it may be purely a fairy tale, though I doubt it, but if true there is an example of a human communicating and in fact having intimate relations with an Other. So yes it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities that Craster managed to work out some kind of a deal, you're making assumptions about the Others that is not supported by the text IMO. Just because the Others haven't attempted to talk to any of the characters in the books, so far, does not mean they're incapable of doing so.

No, I didn't forget. That story is about a human female - go check. By legend, and probably by malicious intent, thousands of years later, she appears to share some superficial similarities with the Others.

I strongly believe that that story is GRRMs example of the corruption of history to legend and the the Nights King married a human woman. Perhaps she was an evil sorceress (bathing in blood was also said to be a habit of the last lady Lothston IIRC) and perhpas she charmed him and they were an evil pair, or perhaps they were really just the losers in a local political stoush and were maliciously slandered after the fact (or before the fact, in order to whip up support for the campaign against them).

Anyway, thats not an example from the books of an Other communicating with humans.

AFAICS, its the opposite side thats making assumptions:

- assuming the Others can communicate with humans, when there is no reliable evidence of them doing so so far

- assuming Craster's wild claims (and those claims effectively extend to his wive's beliefs), which are uncorroborated by any data we see, or any other story about the Others and actually run contrary to a lot of data we have) are true... just because.

From my POV I'll give everyone, including Craster and his wives a default of 'true, as far as they know'. Howveer when any data mismatches occur, I'll then look into the providence of the data.

The providence of Craster's wives data, and his own claims, is the word of a single utterly corrupt man.

When that clashes with everything we've seen or heard about the Other's from elsewhere, then I consider it to be as close to nil value as can be.

[Borsabil]

Agreed.

Shown? Not credible. No way the Others are letting any human in on whatever they do with the babies - assuming that its something to do with making more Others of course.

What experience? That The Others have sometimes been seen from afar? That when they are seen a fierce and unnatural cold occurs? That Craster takes the baby sons (or sheep) into the woods and returns without them, and that some of those times coincide with the Other's being around?

Sure. But more than that? Highly unlikely and no need. Thats enough to match all of the data they'e given us and fits the restricted and controlled lifestyle Craster provides them with..

Its no more credible Craster would know.

He could certainly have told them that, but that would be just him making shit up to keep them in line. There is no credible way the Other's are going to let Craster see their magical rituals to make new Others, assuming they have any.

Right. So it comes down to what Craster told them.

I don't see any reason for him to tell them the truth!

I don't see any way he could know such a truth!

What is it about Craster that entices you to believe he uses the truth as a default when no one can gainsay him?

No, I didn't forget. That story is about a human female - go check. By legend, and probably by malicious intent, thousands of years later, she appears to share some superficial similarities with the Others.

I strongly believe that that story is GRRMs example of the corruption of history to legend and the the Nights King married a human woman. Perhaps she was an evil sorceress (bathing in blood was also said to be a habit of the last lady Lothston IIRC) and perhpas she charmed him and they were an evil pair, or perhaps they were really just the losers in a local political stoush and were maliciously slandered after the fact (or before the fact, in order to whip up support for the campaign against them).

Anyway, thats not an example from the books of an Other communicating with humans.

AFAICS, its the opposite side thats making assumptions:

- assuming the Others can communicate with humans, when there is no reliable evidence of them doing so so far

- assuming Craster's wild claims (and those claims effectively extend to his wive's beliefs), which are uncorroborated by any data we see, or any other story about the Others and actually run contrary to a lot of data we have) are true... just because.

From my POV I'll give everyone, including Craster and his wives a default of 'true, as far as they know'. Howveer when any data mismatches occur, I'll then look into the providence of the data.

The providence of Craster's wives data, and his own claims, is the word of a single utterly corrupt man.

When that clashes with everything we've seen or heard about the Other's from elsewhere, then I consider it to be as close to nil value as can be.

From a wiki of ice and fire

According to legend, the Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. He was a fearless warrior, who was named the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Later he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars", he chased her and loved her though "her skin was cold as ice", and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.^[1] (Her description matches that of the Others.)

Actually it's the opposite of what you describe. The legend talks about a woman with weird attributes, but because the characteristics of the Others have been forgotten they're ascribed a human being instead of correctly being ascribed to an Other. I think GRRM was making commentary about the corruption of history, but in the opposite way you're thinking. Skin as white as the moon (albino white that is), ice cold and eyes like blue stars, sure sounds like an Other to me :)

[corbon]

From a wiki of ice and fire

Actually it's the opposite of what you describe. The legend talks about a woman with weird attributes, but because the characteristics of the Others have been forgotten they're ascribed a human being instead of correctly being ascribed to an Other. I think GRRM was making commentary about the corruption of history, but in the opposite way you're thinking. Skin as white as the moon (albino white that is), ice cold and eyes like blue stars, sure sounds like an Other to me :)

Read it again.

He fell in love with a woman.

She had pale skin and blue eyes.

The rest is exaggerated (perhaps deliberately) poetic license (oral histories!) - who else but her lover knew what her touch was like? And how did any of those who destroyed them know about giving his seed costing his soul? Its a clear bullshit beat-up by the winners who destroyed the couple (no idea who, if anyone, was 'good' or 'bad' in that particular little fight).

Her description matching that of the Others is what fans have added, not what GRRM wrote. And it does bear some similarities, especially once the poetic license is added.

I'd give it 80:20 at least it was a normal human woman with pale skin and blue eyes. Roslin Frey for example, has very pale skin (but brown eyes).

We don't actually have any other evidence of female Others even. The Nights King is the only supposed example, but even that is explicitly a woman and never described as an Other, just with enough garbled 8000 year old oral evidence to make it seem like she might have been.

Always remember, though the magic is magic, the humans are human. That includes the Nights King, the King in the North and the King Beyond the Wall. The were humans, with human motivations, desires and flaws.

That, IMHO, is why GRRMs writing is so good.

[Borsabil]

Read it again.

He fell in love with a woman.

She had pale skin and blue eyes.

The rest is exaggerated (perhaps deliberately) poetic license (oral histories!) - who else but her lover knew what her touch was like? And how did any of those who destroyed them know about giving his seed costing his soul? Its a clear bullshit beat-up by the winners who destroyed the couple (no idea who, if anyone, was 'good' or 'bad' in that particular little fight).

Her description matching that of the Others is what fans have added, not what GRRM wrote. And it does bear some similarities, especially once the poetic license is added.

I'd give it 80:20 at least it was a normal human woman with pale skin and blue eyes. Roslin Frey for example, has very pale skin (but brown eyes).

We don't actually have any other evidence of female Others even. The Nights King is the only supposed example, but even that is explicitly a woman and never described as an Other, just with enough garbled 8000 year old oral evidence to make it seem like she might have been.

Always remember, though the magic is magic, the humans are human. That includes the Nights King, the King in the North and the King Beyond the Wall. The were humans, with human motivations, desires and flaws.

That, IMHO, is why GRRMs writing is so good.

Yes as I said the story talks of a woman, there is no mention of her being an Other, even though she fits the bill to a Tee. You assume there is knowledge amongst the people of the North, from whom the fable of the Nights King has been passed down, regarding the characteristics of the Others, and yet there is no evidence of the sort. The Others seem to be viewed as a children's fairytale, a load of nonsense like elves and goblins to us. People hearing that story would not think the Nights Kings consort was being depicted as an Other, because they'd have no idea that an Other had white cold skin and glow in the dark blue eyes, she was just a strange evil lady, as you say maybe a sorceress. The fable told by old nan is in fact the opposite of what you're suggesting. And no I don't think GRRM inserts stories like this just to mislead the reader, we are meant to take notice of it. GRRM has stated repeatedly that the Others are not the boogeyman, but something far more complex.

There's another quote from old nan that's relevant here

"They (the wildlings) had consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others during the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children."

There's another quote from old Nan, recalling the numerous characters guessing about the significance of the red comet

"Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had."

Guess who was bang on the money? I reckon we're supposed to take Nans stories very seriously, it's GRRMs humor that he makes the most reliable teller of Westeros history a blind old woman who everyone in the books thinks is talking nonsense. She was right about the Others, right about the Long Night, right about the return of the dragons, so yeah I'm thinking she could well be right regarding humans consorting with Others.

[corbon]

Yes as I said the story talks of a woman, there is no mention of her being an Other, even though she fits the bill to a Tee.

She's a woman, which doesn't fit the bill at all.

You assume there is knowledge amongst the people of the North, from whom the fable of the Nights King has been passed down, regarding the characteristics of the Others, and yet there is no evidence of the sort. The Others seem to be viewed as a children's fairytale, a load of nonsense like elves and goblins to us. People hearing that story would not think the Nights Kings consort was being depicted as an Other, because they'd have no idea that an Other had white cold skin and glow in the dark blue eyes, she was just a strange evil lady, as you say maybe a sorceress.

Of course the wildlings and northerners have some idea, what Other's look like, just as we have many ideas of what elves and goblins look like.

Not to mention that the Nights King and his Queen was not very long after the Long Night, when the 'memories' of the Others would have been 'fresh'.

Sorry, but this is just a lame argument.

The fable told by old nan is in fact the opposite of what you're suggesting. And no I don't think GRRM inserts stories like this just to mislead the reader, we are meant to take notice of it. GRRM has stated repeatedly that the Others are not the boogeyman, but something far more complex.

We may have to just agree to disagree. Its a fable for sure, and the thing about fables is they aren't 100% accurate but are distortions of past events or even entirely invented stories for allegorical or other reasons.

There's another quote from old nan that's relevant here

"They (the wildlings) had consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others during the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children."

No female Others here.

Sounds very much to me like nasty "they are THE EVIL ENEMY" propaganda to me, some with partial or even full truths, others just inventions about an enemy they don't truly know. Consorting with giants - heck, the current wildlings do that, and its no big horrible thing either. Consorting with ghouls - doubtful. Drinking blood from polished horns - probably not human blood, other than rare outlier cases (Lothston anyone?) Women lying with Others during the long night - laughable really, how would they know? Pretty much everyone is huddling away trying to stay alive.

There's another quote from old Nan, recalling the numerous characters guessing about the significance of the red comet

"Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had."

Guess who was bang on the money? I reckon we're supposed to take Nans stories very seriously, it's GRRMs humor that he makes the most reliable teller of Westeros history a blind old woman who everyone in the books thinks is talking nonsense. She was right about the Others, right about the Long Night, right about the return of the dragons, so yeah I'm thinking she could well be right regarding humans consorting with Others.

Sure, there's clues there. But the thing about fables and legends is that they mix truths and half truths and untruths and allegory all together. Not everything is exactly right in them.

I'm thinking the humans consorting with Others thing is the wrong that makes the rights have more veracity. Old Nan is a keeper of lore, so to speak, not a fountain of perfectly accurate knowledge. It would be weak writing to have all of her stories being 100% accurate, sort of a deus ex machina of information. More realistic, more fun, to have her stories have grains of truth in them but be an unreliable and not-always accurate descendent of ancient information. GRRM is good enough to do that with his characters living through the events they are part of (unreliable narrators), he's certainly smart enough to do the same thing (except it shoud be even more unreliable really) with information thats thousands of years old.

[King Hammer]

How could he have started sacrificing to them if they hadn't been around for thousands of years?

I've only been around this forum for a short time, so I'm not sure if this is a common theory, but I think it is possible that the Others were never totally destroyed and then "came back," but that they were simply driven far into the North. There appears to be a huge mass of uninhabited land at the northern edge of Westeros, and we really have no idea how far it goes. They could have been chilling up there the whole time, doing Othery stuff.

[J. Stargaryen]

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.

- ASoS, Bran IV

“The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”

And suddenly Jon was back in the Lord Commander’s Tower again. A severed hand was climbing his calf and when he pried it off with the point of his longsword, it lay writhing, fingers opening and closing. The dead man rose to his feet, blue eyes shining in that gashed and swollen face. Ropes of torn flesh hung from the great wound in his belly, yet there was no blood.

“What color are their eyes?” he asked her.

“Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.”

- ACoK, Jon III

The NK's wife was almost certainly an Other.

Below are some examples where you can see the association between "blue star," "sapphire" and Other/wight eyes.

---

“The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye.” She backed through a door and started up the winding steps.

- ACoK, Bran V

Thus it was not a raven who took flight for Storm’s End that day, but Vhagar, oldest and largest of the dragons of Westeros. On her back rode Prince Aemond Targaryen, with a sapphire in the place of his missing eye.

- tPatQ

Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer’s. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.

- AGoT, Jon VII

“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.” The maester tsked. “You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart.”

- AGoT, Bran VII

[corbon]

- ASoS, Bran IV

- ACoK, Jon III

The NK's wife was almost certainly an Other.

I'm not denying such an association. I'm saying thats a sucker's game you've fallen for.

The Nights Queen was a woman, not an other. It said so right there in your quote.

Yes, her description can be matched to that of an Other. I'm suggesting thats deliberate. Both on GRRMs part and on the part of the oral histories.

The Others are alien inhumans. Their speech is unnatural to human ears, their cold deadly to humankind, their bodies melt into water!

Mating with one? Yeah right, not happening (warning, very NSFW humourous comics)

Making mixed race babies (wildling women laying with them during the long night) - ahh no, the biologies just can't be compatible enough to do that. A magical ritual or event? Sure maybe, monsters that seem to be mixed race could be created that way. But sexual procreation? Thats just ridiculous. No, that reads as very human propaganda against the wildlings and the Night's Queen that has gone down into lore and fable as 'fact'

I'm saying it makes an enormous amount more sense that the whole Night's King episode is a very human affair and the the Nights King and his queen have literally been demonised by their enemies who were the victors and so set the history.

I'm saying its deliberate that this human woman, the Night's Queen, has a description that has been sent down through history to match that of the Others.

Note also that this is the only even suspected example of a female Other. Its an anomally that way. Its also an anomally that this supposedly happens around a hundred years or so after the end of the Long Night (13th Lord Commander, average is 8 years each) when the Others has just been defeated. Yet here pops up one just a hundred years after their defeat, and then nothing for another 8000 years?

Both anomallys are removed when you see through the trick and note it was just a woman. then look at all the stories with a critical eye.

Think about what the Freys say of Rob Stark, and how that will be in a few hundred years time...

I'm also saying that its unrealistic to expect Old Nan's oral fables to all be perfect and accurate. Thats not how 8000 year old stories work. Yes, there is elements of truth in most or all, and truthful bases for most of them, but its only natural for those elements and bases to be variable in amount and quality - just as GRRM's other narrators don't get everything right..

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm not denying such an association. I'm saying thats a sucker's game you've fallen for.

The Nights Queen was a woman, not an other. It said so right there in your quote.

Yes, her description can be matched to that of an Other. I'm suggesting thats deliberate. Both on GRRMs part and on the part of the oral histories.

The Others are alien inhumans. Their speech is unnatural to human ears, their cold deadly to humankind, their bodies melt into water!

Mating with one? Yeah right, not happening (warning, very NSFW humourous comics)

Making mixed race babies (wildling women laying with them during the long night) - ahh no, the biologies just can't be compatible enough to do that. A magical ritual or event? Sure maybe, monsters that seem to be mixed race could be created that way. But sexual procreation? Thats just ridiculous. No, that reads as very human propaganda against the wildlings and the Night's Queen that has gone down into lore and fable as 'fact'

I'm saying it makes an enormous amount more sense that the whole Night's King episode is a very human affair and the the Nights King and his queen have literally been demonised by their enemies who were the victors and so set the history.

I'm saying its deliberate that this human woman, the Night's Queen, has a description that has been sent down through history to match that of the Others.

Note also that this is the only even suspected example of a female Other. Its an anomally that way. Its also an anomally that this supposedly happens around a hundred years or so after the end of the Long Night (13th Lord Commander, average is 8 years each) when the Others has just been defeated. Yet here pops up one just a hundred years after their defeat, and then nothing for another 8000 years?

Both anomallys are removed when you see through the trick and note it was just a woman. then look at all the stories with a critical eye.

Think about what the Freys say of Rob Stark, and how that will be in a few hundred years time...

I'm also saying that its unrealistic to expect Old Nan's oral fables to all be perfect and accurate. Thats not how 8000 year old stories work. Yes, there is elements of truth in most or all, and truthful bases for most of them, but its only natural for those elements and bases to be variable in amount and quality - just as GRRM's other narrators don't get everything right..

You've concocted a logical explanation. However, you have literally no evidence to support this claim. You just cite your interpretation as the one that makes the most sense.

As for the bold, I don't think it helps your case to resort to semantic arguments. Surely woman (female) and Other don't have to be mutually exclusive. That's sort of the point.

Also, I'm not sure your attack on Old Nan's reliability is warranted. Didn't GRRM say that she was pretty reliable, or something along those lines?

[King Tam Stark]

will the nights watch be responsible for the others attacking the realm?

when the rogue members killed craster did they put an end to the others food source?