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Did Oberyn Martell die on purpose?


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128 replies to this topic

#1 BitsOfBrains

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:08 PM

Does anyone else think that Oberyn allowed the Mountain to kill him?

 

Hear me out on this one.

 

He came to KL to kill Tywin and the Mountain.

 

He had already poisoned Tywin (methinks) and the Mountain was a goner for sure.

 

He wanted Dorne to rise for Myrcella, and he knew that his death would piss off the Dornish enough to make that happen.

 

Right before "the incident" Oberyn says something to the effect of, "Say the names or I will haunt you through all seven hells." to me suggesting he plans on them both being dead forthwith.

 

We hear this same phrase from Lord Mormont on the fist of the first men, basically saying that if Sam didn't get the ravens off AND THEY BOTH DIED he would haunt him through all seven hells.

 

Also Gurm has said that Dorne was partially inspired by Palestine where martyrdom is something to aspire to in some circles.

 

Plus it just seemed to me like Oberyn had no need to get so close and allow the mountain to grab him.

 

 

 



#2 Raven in Winter

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:10 PM

Good thought, but I think he just got cocky.

#3 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:11 PM

I think it he considered it okay to die if it meant that he would get that confession. Likely he would prefer not to but he was going to do whatever he had to in order to accomplish his goal. If that includes going to his death then so be it.



#4 Gort

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:15 PM

I like the idea and wouldn't want to poo-poo it, but I do agree with Raven in Winter's point about Oberyn just getting too cocky and letting his guard down. Still, an interesting point.



#5 intheswamp

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:21 PM

I think Oberyn just got emotional during the fight and screwed up.



#6 Gneisenau

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:24 PM

I think certainly Oberyn accepted the risk of possibly dying in his fight with the Mountain (you'd have to be crazy to not), but considering Oberyn was Doran's agent, I don't think he would want to die there, since he still had much he could do. Simply put I think he underestimated the Mountain's willpower.


Edited by Gneisenau, 11 November 2013 - 11:33 PM.


#7 Jon of the Dead

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:24 PM

Interesting idea, but killing Gregor still would've damaged the Lannister-Martell alliance because Oberyn would have helped Tyrion, the king's alleged killer and a traitor. I think Oberyn considered giving Tyrion asylum in Dorne to piss the Lannisters even more, and he actually invited him to Dorne before the duel.

 

But Oberyn dying certainly worked better as an excuse for war, so who knows. I think it was a win-win situation: no matter the outcome Gregor was going to die and the alliance would get a bit shakier



#8 Usrnmhsnomning

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:32 PM

Oberyn knew he would win. He wasn't just confident in his chances, he was absolutely certain he would beat the Mountain, which of course was his downfall. He didn't let himself die on purpose. If he thought for even a moment that the Mountain would still be able to grab and kill him, he wouldn't have got that close in that position.



#9 Gneisenau

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:34 PM

I always thought Oberyn dying wasn't so much his fault as it was Gregor being unstoppable.



#10 oursisthefury69

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:35 PM

I think he had nothing to live for past that fight, but I don't think he necessarily died on purpose, and im beginning to think more and more it was varys not oberyn who poisoned tywin



#11 Petyr Patter

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:40 PM

Oberyn made it clear that he didn't just want the killer, but the man who gave the order.  By dying, he left his revenge entirely up to his brother, who as later events showed wasn't going to march to war without a clear way to win, dead brother or not.  Unless of course he did poison Tywin, but that is not in the least bit confirmed. 

 

It is also worth pointing out that he had 8 daughters, including a 6 year old.  The man had things to live for.  While I think he was prepared to die, he didn't intentionally leave himself open for Gregor's fist assault.



#12 Mad Monkey

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:41 PM

I think it was a win-win situation. I don't think he wanted to die -- if he's anything like his daughters, he wanted to kill more than just Gregor and possibly Tywin. He might have even favored some kind of war against the Throne, and would have wanted to help facilitate that. But if he did die, at least he managed to take Gregor to Hell too. 


Edited by Mad Monkey, 11 November 2013 - 11:42 PM.


#13 Gneisenau

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:47 PM

Oberyn made it clear that he didn't just want the killer, but the man who gave the order.  By dying, he left his revenge entirely up to his brother, who as later events showed wasn't going to march to war without a clear way to win, dead brother or not.  Unless of course he did poison Tywin, but that is not in the least bit confirmed. 

 

It is also worth pointing out that he had 8 daughters, including a 6 year old.  The man had things to live for.  While I think he was prepared to die, he didn't intentionally leave himself open for Gregor's fist assault.

 

As a side note, why do we never hear about Oberyn's bastard sons ? Does he not care for them ? Or was he simply ridiculously lucky in that he gave birth to 8 daughters ?



#14 complexphoenix

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:52 PM

Oberyn had too much to live for. He had Ellaria, his daughters, his brother. Why would he commit suicide-by-duel? If he didn't have so many people he loved and who loved him, I might say your theory was somewhat compelling, but no. Avenging his sister was worth taking some big risks, but certain death? I think not.



#15 Mad Monkey

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:55 PM

 

As a side note, why do we never hear about Oberyn's bastard sons ? Does he not care for them ? Or was he simply ridiculously lucky in that he gave birth to 8 daughters ?

 

Oh, I'm sure he has far more than eight children. If he doesn't have any sons it's because they probably formed their own gang -- the Sand Scorpions, or the Desert Dragons, or something. Either that, or he managed to actually wear his penis away into a nub from overuse and he can't actually impregnate anyone any more. 



#16 BitsOfBrains

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:02 AM

Oberyn had too much to live for. He had Ellaria, his daughters, his brother. Why would he commit suicide-by-duel? If he didn't have so many people he loved and who loved him, I might say your theory was somewhat compelling, but no. Avenging his sister was worth taking some big risks, but certain death? I think not.

 

Yeah but martyrs always think that their deaths will actually benefit their people more than their continued existence.

 

The only other option I can think of is the above stated, "he just got cocky" but I feel like Oberyn is just too badass for that,

 

 

 

Let me restate the question then, IF Oberyn thought HIS DEATH would better serve house Martell and Dorne than his winning, would he have been willing to die? 

 

I say yes.

 

The question then becomes did he believe his death (combined with his actions in KL which likely included poisoning Tywin)  would better serve?



#17 The Mother of The Others

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:04 AM

Yes.   The idea was to throw himself at the enemy in a way that Doran wasn't.    It was a war prayer he hoped would inspire others to follow his example, but more importantly his death during the fight meant a slow torturous death by poison for his most hated enemy.   He didn't want to "win" because that'd mean a quick death for Gregor.  He had to lose in order for Gregor to suffer the full measure of what the poison could do to him.  It was on purpose.  The Red Viper didn't care for us or our aspirations for him.  He got what he wanted out of that embassadorial visit.



#18 BitsOfBrains

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:08 AM

I didn't even consider the fact that if he wanted to win the Mountain would get a quick clean death, which he didn't deserve.

 

I mean he intentionally thickened the poison so that the mountain would suffer long,

 

If he really cared about winning why not use a quick poison so that he would get cut, weaken quickly, and allow for a quick killing blow.


Edited by BitsOfBrains, 12 November 2013 - 12:09 AM.


#19 Usrnmhsnomning

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:10 AM

I actually find it quite hilarious that standing over a fallen enemy who appears to be almost dead and preparing to impale him with his own sword is apparently "letting yourself die on purpose" to some people in this thread, as if Oberyn actively thought "Hey, you know what would be cool? If I pretend I'm gonna finish him off but let him gouge my eyes out instead!".


Edited by Usrnmhsnomning, 12 November 2013 - 12:10 AM.


#20 Rhymes with Weak

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:13 AM

I suppose the question is; if martyrdom/ instigation of war was his aim, why did he try to finish Gregor off with this greatsword after he already fatally nicked him?