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Did Oberyn Martell die on purpose?


BitsOfBrains

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I don't think so. He had people he loved and they were all worth living for, but I don't think he knew for sure he was going to live and got cocky. The risk was there. Gregor would have ended up dead anyway, and I believe Oberyn obviously wanted to survive too, but if it came to that, it'd be worth it for his confession and the revenge he longed for. Especially if he poisoned Tywin (which I believe he did), his revenge was complete, and although he knew he could die, I don't think he wanted to or purposefully let Gregor kill him.


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I think certainly Oberyn accepted the risk of possibly dying in his fight with the Mountain (you'd have to be crazy to not), but considering Oberyn was Doran's agent, I don't think he would want to die there, since he still had much he could do. Simply put I think he underestimated the Mountain's willpower.

I was really surprised by The Mountain's willpower. I kind of figured that once he was in the position of defeat, one he'd never even approached getting into before, that he would just give up like the big dumb ox he is. When he killed the Red Viper I felt so let down because it meant losing that character too soon.

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  • 3 months later...

I believe that Oberyn believed he could beat the mountain I believe that Oberyn got cocky which is why he died I do NOT believe either went in expecting to die and I do believe either would of done anything to win.

Oberyn could have very easily ended it all he CERTAINLY did NOT want to die after all what did he say to Tyrion in the cell.

"I will begin with ser gregor" BEGIN meaning to go further and beyond.

This is westeros there may be death everywhere but I bet NO ONE wants to die.

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Gregor is meant to be depicted as an unstoppable force on Westeros I totally expected some form of "sheep in wolf skin" whilst he lay there on the ground.

I doubt he was smart enough for it though and simple just took the opportunity of opportunism when Oberyn walked to close.

Ill bet Gregor kind of actually wanted to get his hands on Oberyn specifically half way through the fight when Gregor would of known he was too slow...

So how to get Oberyn close....again I still think it might be too smart for the Mountain

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Within the fight itself, Gregor is David and Oberyn is Goliath. Oberyn was basically owning Gregor the hero, but then Gregormtriumphs and kills the villain (within the context of the fight).

So with that said, it wasn't Oberyn being cocky but rather Gregor overcoming the odds.

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There is an awful lot of hindsight in this thread.



No, Oberyn did not expect to die. He was downright cocky, everything from


  • telling Tyrion in an offhand manner that the way to defeat large plate-wearing killing machines was to run rings around them and tire them out before getting them off their feet so they are helpless wearing all that plate (exactly what Bronn does in the Eyrie against Ser Vardis Egen)
  • basically inviting Tyrion to Sunspear and talking provocatively of queening Myrcella, i.e. his plans for after the fight
  • to telling Ellaria Sand after her appalled "You intend to fight that", "No, I intend to kill that" with absolute confidence and a fair amount of arrogance

said he expected to win.



He's like Jaime before he lost his hand, he doesn't believe he can lose.



And he's right to have such confidence in himself because it goes to plan. Gregor has his armpit pierced, seriously incapacitating his swordarm, and the back of his knee sliced, hobbling his movements. He falls and is flat on his back helpless when Oberyn impales him with his spear.



It is quite obvious that Oberyn has succeeded brilliantly and is moving in for the formality of the coup de grace. The only difference between Bronn dispatching Vardis Egen and what happened to Oberyn is GRRM deciding to make the Mountain superhuman. No matter how strong you are you can't overpower someone with those injuries.



Oberyn was not planning to die. No way.


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Actually, it would make sense and wouldn't be out of character for Oberyn. There's only way to win a trial by combat: to kill your opponent. Maybe Oberyn wanted Gregor to die slowly and painfully and thus he had to die. I think he would be the kind of man to sacrifice himself just to inflict pain on his sister's murderer.

to what end tywins still alive and he blames him just as much as Gregor

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to what end tywins still alive and he blames him just as much as Gregor

War. Oberyn's wanted Doran to go to war since Robert's Rebellion. He knows his death will inflame Dorne (which it did) and force his brother's hand (which it did). He wanted to either get Gregor to admit that Tywin ordered the murders or die trying. He could have used a faster acting poison on his spear, he didn't. If he didn't get the full confession out of Gregor, he wanted him to suffer.

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I'm not sure even the keenest of martyrs would choose to have their head stoved in,just too many variables,he beats Gregor with skill in his chosen weapon and as soon as he lets his guard down by picking up the sword he's had it!

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War. Oberyn's wanted Doran to go to war since Robert's Rebellion. He knows his death will inflame Dorne (which it did) and force his brother's hand (which it did). He wanted to either get Gregor to admit that Tywin ordered the murders or die trying. He could have used a faster acting poison on his spear, he didn't. If he didn't get the full confession out of Gregor, he wanted him to suffer.

none of that means he wanted I die and it didn't force dorans hand doran had already made plans long ago so him dieing is irrelivent. more than likely the poison was a back up in case he died
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War. Oberyn's wanted Doran to go to war since Robert's Rebellion. He knows his death will inflame Dorne (which it did) and force his brother's hand (which it did). He wanted to either get Gregor to admit that Tywin ordered the murders or die trying. He could have used a faster acting poison on his spear, he didn't. If he didn't get the full confession out of Gregor, he wanted him to suffer.

If his plan was to get himself killed to incite a war then he is even stupider than he appears given the way he goes about it. Gregor killing him would be perfectly legal in trial by combat, I think even Doran points this out. If he did it intentionally, I don't think he did, then he just basically tied his brother's hands.

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I wonder if Oberyn was terminally ill with something that was going to finish him off. Some one who knows they are going to die, is a very dangerous individual. Oberyn jumped at the chance to fight the mountain when it came because he knew he would not have another chance to achieve justice on his Sister's behalf. He had a great plan, a winning plan. He had to get the mountain's confession with him standing right there, for a non existing photo moment. Oberyn the Viper standing over his vanquished foe the mountain. He wanted that immortal moment, and instead got his head watermelloned.

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If his plan was to get himself killed to incite a war then he is even stupider than he appears given the way he goes about it. Gregor killing him would be perfectly legal in trial by combat, I think even Doran points this out. If he did it intentionally, I don't think he did, then he just basically tied his brother's hands.

How did he tie Doran's hands? Doran finally makes preparations for war after sitting on his hands for 20 years. He sends Quentyn to Essos basically immediately after Oberyn dies. No, he wasn't murdered as the Sand Snakes claim but his death reignited dormant passions about the deaths of Elia and her children. Remember, there are a ton of Dornish Lords and Ladies at the trial. They see Oberyn trying to get the confession from Gregor that Tywin gave the order. Oberyn was playing to his audience. He reminded every Dornish man and woman in attendance that Gregor raped her, killed her and murdered her children. With him dead, the only way for Dorne to get vengeance for Elia (and Oberyn; nobody in Dorne cares that he put himself in harm's way) is to go to war. There's no longer a viper in the grass.

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I like to think he considered the duel in a similar way to Tyrion; if he wins, great, he's alive and Gregor is dead and he can avenge and screw his way through the capital some more. If he dies, well, Dorne is going to be furious, Tywin etc will have to handle that and probably go to war, Gregor will die screaming, and potentially Tywin is also poisoned.

I don't see why he would have poisoned the spear with slow-acting poison if he was 100% certain he'd survive by killing Gregor outright, but I agree that it would have been a very silly suicide attempt since his death was basically down to fluke at that point.

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If Oberyn wanted to die I think he could have found a better way then letting the Mountain smash all his teeth out and smash his face in, he was an expert in poisons, could have just taken something that let him go to sleep rather than a violent and horrible death in front of his lover.


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