Video Games: The (over-priced) Expansion

[Sci-2]

If you want a relaxing game, pick Fez. It's a nice puzzler, probably easy for many, but there's something soothing about wandering through its worlds.

The only issue I had is the secrets (not integral to the game AFAIK) seem to require fight move type combos (right, left, right, up...) rather than clever manipulations of space.

[Fez]

Interesting. Apparently Sony have been chasing Chris Roberts and his company to release Star Citizen on PS4, apparently sending them dev kits for free so they could take a look. According to Roberts, it'd be pretty easy to reduce the game to work on PS4/XB1 (you'd just have to lower the graphics settings, apparently, everything else would be okay) but he's not happy about doing so because of Sony/Microsoft's approach to creator updates. He said that if Sony would allow creators to update their games at will and not arse around having to double-check and approve everything first, then he'd be happy to go on PS4. He's told Sony that, and apparently Sony are considering the idea.

Obviously that has pretty big ramifications for all games and their patches, updates and expansions released on the PS4 beyond this one case. Given how Sony have been talking up their indie commitments on the platform, I wouldn't be surprised if they did move towards a 'relatively' more open platform.

Doesn't there need to be a certain level of oversight though? Just to make sure no assholes out there create a game that bricks your console somehow?

[Kalbear]

Yes, there does. Otherwise you get a very bad deal.

The thing that makes consoles desirous for a great many people also requires a fair amount of oversight. Not a ton; you don't have to be Nintendo, and MS has a long ways to go to make it better - but relaxing all oversight is just calling for security holes and day zero issues.

[Werthead]

Doesn't there need to be a certain level of oversight though? Just to make sure no assholes out there create a game that bricks your console somehow?

Going by the example of the PC - decades of precedent, tens of thousands of games - no, not at all.

In theory, as there is zero oversight for PC games and never has been, the PC is vulnerable to that sort of thing but it's never happened because these are industry professionals releasing proper products they want people to spend money on. Blowing up their machines is kind of counter-productive to that (not to mention would result in very large lawsuits).

I can understand why Sony might be a bit nervous about letting developers do updates and things without oversight (and in theory there can be some oversight, just not the submit-DLC-and-three-months-later-it-might-come-out process they have at the moment), but it's happened on PC for decades with almost no problems. Microsoft, with their experience in the PC arena, really don't have any excuses at all.

[Fez]

Going by the example of the PC - decades of precedent, tens of thousands of games - no, not at all.

What do you mean? There are at least millions, probably billions or even trillions, of things that you can download on PCs that will absolutely destroy your computer. There's viruses and trojans everywhere. Maybe not on things like Steam, Origin, or the App Store; but those sites have oversight to make sure that's the case.

[Kalbear]

In theory, as there is zero oversight for PC games and never has been, the PC is vulnerable to that sort of thing but it's never happened because these are industry professionals releasing proper products they want people to spend money on. Blowing up their machines is kind of counter-productive to that (not to mention would result in very large lawsuits).

It's happened quite often. Case in point: Half Life 2 had an uninstall bug where if you didn't install it in the 'normal' place it would delete basically everything on that drive. (and point of fact they still have this problem on Steam!). There have been a number of patches for NVIDIA cards that have made the cards on some revs completely DOA. There have been several patches and downloaders that were infected by trojans before they left the factory and got even burnt to the gold.

On Android there are a number of game patches that have come out that will brick your phone until you restore it to factory settings.

I'm really surprised you don't know this stuff, Werthead. The main difference is that you can get computers repaired and computers fail enough for other reasons that it's not quite as horrible for people. For consoles, it's basically replace the whole damn thing.

[Derfel Cadarn]

There was an embarrassing EVE Online patch that deleted the boot.ini

[fuseprime]

I've been looking around (Gamespot, IGN) to see what is releasing as local multiplayer on Xbone. I can't seem to see anything outside of the standard sports titles. Does anyone know if a game like Ryse or Forza is local?

[Jabronius Maximus]

I believe recent versions of Forza weren't split screen - 2 was the last one I played, and that was apparently the last one to feature it. Kind of a shame how local multiplayer has taken a back seat to the online gaming explosion. I seriously hate handing off the controller to my brothers in a single player/online MP-only game.

Correct me if I'm wrong but split screen would force developers to essentially render two copies of the game, and with the focus going to game performance, local gets cut out. But I'd expect games like Halo and call of duty to have it, as usual.

[Durckad]

Going by the example of the PC - decades of precedent, tens of thousands of games - no, not at all.

In theory, as there is zero oversight for PC games and never has been, the PC is vulnerable to that sort of thing but it's never happened because these are industry professionals releasing proper products they want people to spend money on. Blowing up their machines is kind of counter-productive to that (not to mention would result in very large lawsuits).

The newer Pools of Radiance game had a tendency to corrupt Windows installs but that was a particularly buggy game, like legendarily buggy.

Still, it can and did happen.

[Werthead]

What do you mean? There are at least millions, probably billions or even trillions, of things that you can download on PCs that will absolutely destroy your computer. There's viruses and trojans everywhere. Maybe not on things like Steam, Origin, or the App Store; but those sites have oversight to make sure that's the case.

And there's been incidents of the PSN being hacked and user data being stolen. So what? We weren't talking about viruses and malware. We were talking about the console manufacturers allowing a reputable, long-established professional gaming company to update their own game after release. There can still be some oversight prior to base release, to make sure the game doesn't blow the machine up, but after that the game-makers want to be able to update the game without having to send off each individual update, even hotfixes and micropatches, through a multi-week certification process.

It's happened quite often. Case in point: Half Life 2 had an uninstall bug where if you didn't install it in the 'normal' place it would delete basically everything on that drive. (and point of fact they still have this problem on Steam!). There have been a number of patches for NVIDIA cards that have made the cards on some revs completely DOA. There have been several patches and downloaders that were infected by trojans before they left the factory and got even burnt to the gold.

I've installed and uninstalled HL2 six times and this has never happened. If you tried to put it somewhere else when Steam wouldn't let you, and the thing would resultingly go haywire, that's your own problem. That's like arguing that 'a game company wanting to update its own game' is the same as a user hacking their console against the terms of agreement and bricking it in the process. It's not the same thing at all. Hardware patches on console are carried out by the manufacturer (Sony or Microsoft) themselves, so that's not an issue either. In fact, both things seem to be completely unrelated to what we were talking about.

To reiterate: a gaming company run by an industry professional with 30+ years of experience who has worked on several of the most famous gaming franchises in history wants to be able to patch and update it's game - which has an MMO-like mode - after release without rigmarole. The initial release can be vetted by Sony (or whoever) the same as any other game. After that, they want to be able to fix issues instantly when they come up rather than having to send each patch to the console owner and wait six weeks (or whatever), which is no good at all if you have problems that need addressing urgently (case in point, if Rome II was on console it still wouldn't haven't reached its second patch, whilst now it's heading for its sixth on PC). It's also no good if the game is designed around incremental updates and post-release schedules. This is why MMOs have never taken off on console despite there being no technical reason why they shouldn't.

As I said, if Sony go for this it could mean a move to a relatively more open platform where game creators have somewhat more control over their games post-release. I'm not advocating turning consoles into total open-source platforms in which everyone and their dog can put whatever they want at will on them with no oversight at all.

[Fez]

And there's been incidents of the PSN being hacked and user data being stolen. So what? We weren't talking about viruses and malware. We were talking about the console manufacturers allowing a reputable, long-established professional gaming company to update their own game after release. There can still be some oversight prior to base release, to make sure the game doesn't blow the machine up, but after that the game-makers want to be able to update the game without having to send off each individual update, even hotfixes and micropatches, through a multi-week certification process.

But if there's little oversight, any hacker/malcontent could claim to be an indie dev and throw a bunch of malware into some half-assed game they put up.

[Kalbear]

I've installed and uninstalled HL2 six times and this has never happened. If you tried to put it somewhere else when Steam wouldn't let you, and the thing would resultingly go haywire, that's your own problem. That's like arguing that 'a game company wanting to update its own game' is the same as a user hacking their console against the terms of agreement and bricking it in the process. It's not the same thing at all. Hardware patches on console are carried out by the manufacturer (Sony or Microsoft) themselves, so that's not an issue either. In fact, both things seem to be completely unrelated to what we were talking about.

This was before steam. And it isn't a matter of it being where steam doesn't let you; it's specifying a different drive and directory than the default. Their installer app erases everything at the root of the install, so if you put it in C instead of c\program files\steam\hl2, well, there ya go. No C drive. Steam actually warns you of this for their steam installer too!

The uninstallation process deletes the folder Steam was installed to to ensure it is fully uninstalled. If you accidentally installed Steam to a folder containing other data, for example C:\Program Files\ instead of C:\Program Files\Steam\, STOP! Do not run the uninstaller and instead carefully follow the instructions below for Manually Removing Steam, except only delete Steam-related files in step 3

It doesn't take much for a software writer to brick a machine either. Anywhere from frying the video card due to going well out of the limits of how much it can process to ignoring certain performance restraints to simply opening a network port that is unsecured.

The point, wert, is that these things happen all the time in the PC world by PC games that break shit left and right.

This is why MMOs have never taken off on console despite there being no technical reason why they shouldn't.There's not a ton of demand for them right now. That's a big reason.

Also note that most MMOs do not release client patches particularly often. Even WoW. They do lots of server-side hotfixes - which would be permitted by Sony/MS - often daily. But client side fixes are usually bundled up, because (gasp) they require significantly more testing and verification to get right. Once every 5-6 weeks is pretty correct.

[Werthead]

But if there's little oversight, any hacker/malcontent could claim to be an indie dev and throw a bunch of malware into some half-assed game they put up.

But for the initial release, there can be oversight as there is on Steam (Valve makes sure there isn't any malware on any game put up on Steam) and on PSN and on X-Box Gold. The proposal is that updates to games once they are put out in the wild are handled more by the developer without the lengthy process there is at the moment. Even this can still have some oversight - Steam does that as well - but it's a hell of a lot faster than the current system on console.

This was before steam

What was before Steam? It has never been possible to install Half-Life 2 without Steam (well, unless you wanted to hack it to run a pirate copy, but in that case some sort of consequence is to be expected).

And it isn't a matter of it being where steam doesn't let you; it's specifying a different drive and directory than the default. Their installer app erases everything at the root of the install, so if you put it in C instead of c\program files\steam\hl2, well, there ya go. No C drive. Steam actually warns you of this for their steam installer too!

Erm, specifying a different drive and directory to the default is a matter of putting the thing where it's not supposed to go. Plus it warns and tells you if you do that. And installing Steam means plugging a program into your computer's root installation system. I don't believe either Sony or Microsoft allows people to arse around with the protected root directories of either console (this gen or next) for that reason.

The point, wert, is that these things happen all the time in the PC world by PC games that break shit left and right.

Except it doesn't. If it did, no-one would game on PC and developers would be hit by lawsuits on a regular basis. You seem to have pulled out one example that happened ten years ago. The only other thing on that level of seriousness I recall happening recently was StarCraft II when the game started making GPUs run at their maximum operating temperature even when it wasn't necessary, which was fixed pretty quickly. And as I pointed out, the consoles are not immune to these sort of problems anyway; I'm surprised we haven't seen more viruses targetting the PS and X-Box operating systems, and the problems with people hacking the PS network and things like Skyrim saves filling up the PS3's memory until the game becomes unplayable are well-known.

And, yet again, as I have said multiple times now, the initial release of the game can still be checked and moderated by the console operators. That is not the issue. What is the issue is opening up the updating and patching process. Making that easier for developers to use seems to be a fairly straightforward thing to do.

There's not a ton of demand for them right now. That's a big reason.

Not now, no (although WoW's continued success and the success of Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2 and even the relaunched FF14 show that there's still some demand out there), but there's no real technical reason why Blizzard couldn't have released WoW on either console (or both) in its heyday and probably picked up a lot more customers. The reason they didn't back then - aside from the fact they didn't need to due to the game's overwhelming success on PC - was due to the restrictions from both manufacturers on patching and updating.

The Elder Scrolls Online is going to be an interesting experiment in seeing if a traditional MMORPG can work really well on a console.

[Kalbear]

Bah, ate my post.

No one got sued because it's not really sueable. But glitches like this happen. No one gets sued publicly over these sorts of things. Plenty of lawsuits privately though. Again, about 10k people lost all their data on their hard drive when they uninstalled HL2. Sucked to be them!

Putting things on a non-standard directory isn't going against the basic rules. It's an option. It's an option the creators of the game give you. If they don't want to support it, they shouldn't allow it to be an option.

Wow didn't come to a console, ever, because the interface wouldn't work particularly well and it isn't nearly as moddable. They want to get it right. Other companies are free to do so. All have said that console limitations on interface are the big culprit. Updating isn't the issue.

The update rate for client fixes seems to be a hell of a lot faster than 6 weeks on consoles as well; I get updates every two weeks for most things. It probably does suck, but it sucks less than indicated.

[Werthead]

Half-Life is 15 years old today.

I feel old. Again.

[karaddin]

Thanks Wert, now I do too but in a good way. That helicopter fight really was awesome and terrifying at the time. I really need to try playing Black Mesa and messing with fov settings to see if I can get it to not make me sick.

[Werthead]

"PS4 is technically superior and easier to work with than X-Box One, but we can't say that outright as Microsoft will get pissed off, so please wait whilst I spend 10 minutes saying that in a sort-of bullshitty way that avoids outright suggesting that X-BoX One is weaker. Or something. Who knows? Go buy a PS4 (love you Microsoft)."

- Infinity Ward trying hard not to say that XB1 is slightly crappier than PS4.

[KiDisaster]

I picked up Assassin's Creed 4 on Steam yesterday. Port-wise it's actually pretty solid, much better than the previous games have been. The optimization could be better though, especially in the first zone of the game. Even with every setting set to the minimum I was getting 30-35fps and my hardware exceeds all the recommended requirements. Things improve after that though and I'm getting around 60 with just a few settings turned down (Ambient Occlusion, God Rays, Volumetric Fog are turned down and disabled soft shadows). Game still looks pretty great.

Not very far in yet but I'm already enjoying it a hell of a lot more than AC3. Edward is a much more interesting main character than Connor was IMO, actually running around a big city again is pretty nice (Havana is cool, can't wait to go to my home town :lol:). Combat feels pretty much the same as it always has. I like where the story is going so far. Plus pirates. More pirates in video games please. Pirates are awesome.

I also reinstalled Starcraft 2 for some reason. Guess I got an urge to get my ass thoroughly kicked again. I'm am so horrifically shitty at RTS games.

ETA: Seriously. You've got to be super human in some way to play SC at even a decent level. It's just too much to keep track of at once. How much of each resource do I have, how many of each unit, what should I be building, what should my units be doing, should I expand now or wait, more workers or more combat units. Ok my army is fighting their army, need to control that fight and be making more units at the same time to make up for losses and keeping track of all this other shit. All of this while constantly watching for an attack from some guy who's also level 1 but is five times as fast as me at building shit. Too much for my puny brain to handle. :lol:

[karaddin]

I don't think it requires super human to get to decent, it just requires constant practice to get all the basics happening from your subconscious...once you've got that you can focus on the other stuff while maintaining the "pylons and probes". Trying to pick it up for a few games once every 6 months however just doesn't cut it >_<