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I rather have Jon die than....


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#1 Petite Psycophant

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:23 PM

I much rather see Jon Snow die for good than him being brought back. I much rather mourn Jon than see him die and come back as something else. I doubt I would get anybody to agree with me but this is why.

 

When I got into The Game of Thrones and later into A Song of Ice and Fire I heard so much about GRRM not being afraid to kill off beloved characters. It fits the world he created and it makes for great suspense and very little cliché. When I started reading the books I was so very much invested in them and at some parts my heart was pounding in my chest. Unfortunately much of thta feeling is gone now.

 

When GRRM brought Catelyn back I was glad for the actress playing her, I was happy for Arya who lost so much and and I was relieved for Bran and Rickon. Though at the same time I had a nasty after taste in my mouth so to speak. I think it would have served the books for Catelyn to either stay death or found a way to escape.

 

I didn't mind so much that people like Beric seemed to be impossible to kill cause they were more like a plot devise despite being a rather well-rounded character himself. But when they start bringing POV chars from the dead is where the I lose my investments in the chars again. Everybody knew the Mountain would make a return and when things start being predictable it gets boring and you get detached once again. Since Gregor wasn't a POV char either I thought to myself, this again? And moved on.

 

Though Jon is yet another POV char, one that's shrouded in mystery. If you're going to be so bold as to have him be attacked in such a vicious way, please either let him die, break everybody's hearts and let that be a real emotional experience or make it so he somehow survives the attack which is also a cop-out but at least not such a huge one as bringing the character back from the dead. "Cause magic!" *trollface*

 

I'm sorry but it feels cheap, predictable and a major cop-out at this point in the series. So please either let Jon RIP or have him survive somehow but don't do the fake-out OH EM GEE HE DED D: just to raise him from the dead.



#2 Leap

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:34 PM

I much rather see Jon Snow die for good than him being brought back. I much rather mourn Jon than see him die and come back as something else. I doubt I would get anybody to agree with me but this is why.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't read all of it. It's late, I'm tired and I've had too much to drink.

 

 

Anyway, the point is... I think the idea of (true) resurrection is that they don't come back as some half-arsed mockery like LS, but as the real thing. If (as I firmly believe) Jon is brought back via Bran & Theon et al. then he should be essentially the same, perhaps we'll be gifted with an interesting description of what dying was like for Jon.

 

And if he comes back as something else, then it will be AAR.



#3 grand old duke of stark

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:39 PM

I feel the same way.  But it's not exactly clear whether even IRL any of Jon's wounds were fatal.  Within the story setup, there are many ways for Jon to be revived.   How much better for the story IMHO if he stayed dead and everybody else was jolted into a new phase of the Game, Dance, and Song.  It would certainly jolt the readers.  However, Jon has got the best plot armour in the books, so I expect to see him up and about a few chapters into WoW. 



#4 The Sleeper

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:45 PM

I disagree about Catelyn. I think bringing her back was a stroke for genius. It demonstrates what loss can do to a person, Brienne meeting her was horror masterpiece and the dramatic buildup for the confrontation with Brienne and Jaime is phenomenal. Really one of the best uses of fantastical elements to enhance a narrative I've come across. So my hopes are up for Jon.



#5 OberynBlackfyre

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:55 PM

Jon Snow would honestly be the only person I would want brought back to life (given the circumstances of his death), simply because it WOULD actually change his story arc.  Since he was killed, he doesn't necessarily feel like he has to stay being the Commander of the NW, or even in the NW in general. 

 

I however do agree that him surviving the attack and healing WOULD be much more plausible and much less cliche than him being brought back to life, simply because the whole "resurrection" thing is starting to feel a bit over done within the story.  It kind of feels like "well, we are this far in the story and this person has been a plot point and symbolic in this way, and it's too late to introduce anyone who could take his spot in the plot soooooo...."

 

 

 

The only REAL BIG POSITIVE from Jon actually dying then being resurrected would be

 

1.) Communication with Bran from warging into Ghost/ being a part of the Old Gods(weirnet)

 

2.) Him finding out through a vision or time displacement of his true parentage.  I always thought it'd be MUCh more powerful if Jon found this out privately. 

 

3.) If he is resurrected by Melisandre aka R'Hllor, he can dispel the nonsense of Stannis' "Lightbringer", as I assume he would be able to do what Beric Dondarrion did to a sword and make it on fire....also, what happens when you do this to a VALYRIAN STEEL sword?

 

 

 

So, in sum, I basically agree that the whole "they're dead....psyche" is kind of getting cliche'd, however I do think that Jon's story arc could use something as drastic as this, only to form him into who he's supposed to be, and to give the reveal of his dna. 



#6 Petite Psycophant

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:01 PM

 

Sorry, I didn't read all of it. It's late, I'm tired and I've had too much to drink.

 

 

Anyway, the point is... I think the idea of (true) resurrection is that they don't come back as some half-arsed mockery like LS, but as the real thing. If (as I firmly believe) Jon is brought back via Bran & Theon et al. then he should be essentially the same, perhaps we'll be gifted with an interesting description of what dying was like for Jon.

 

And if he comes back as something else, then it will be AAR.

 

My problem is the use of resurrection itself as a plot point. Not the fact that Jon would return as something else or exactly like himself. The title could use some improvement indeed.

 

@grand old duke of stark: exactly for that reason that I rather have Jon somehow survive than die and be resurrected. His wounds might not have been fatal. He says he didn't feel the 4th stabbing so he was stabbed at least 4 times. I hope someone would intervene before they can do lasting damage. somehow I find it hard to believe that Tormund wouldn't take any action. I'm pretty sure he's aware that Jon was the only person fighting for the wildings to be accepted at the wall. I cannot see this attack to result into anything other than war at wall between wildlings, crows and Stannis/Queen's men.

 

I think the betrayal alone is a huge enough ordeal to spark up any kind of change that GRRM would like to see. If he intended for Jon to be "reborn" I think the stabbing would be enough. Jon would have time to heal and hopefully get more connecting to Ghost since he's been fighting his wargness very hard. His last thought was "Ghost". I'm sure now he learned his lessons and would keep the wolf close (if Ghost survives) from now on.

 

 
 

Jon Snow would honestly be the only person I would want brought back to life (given the circumstances of his death), simply because it WOULD actually change his story arc.  Since he was killed, he doesn't necessarily feel like he has to stay being the Commander of the NW, or even in the NW in general. 

 

I however do agree that him surviving the attack and healing WOULD be much more plausible and much less cliche than him being brought back to life, simply because the whole "resurrection" thing is starting to feel a bit over done within the story.  It kind of feels like "well, we are this far in the story and this person has been a plot point and symbolic in this way, and it's too late to introduce anyone who could take his spot in the plot soooooo...."

 

 

 

The only REAL BIG POSITIVE from Jon actually dying then being resurrected would be

 

1.) Communication with Bran from warging into Ghost/ being a part of the Old Gods(weirnet)

 

2.) Him finding out through a vision or time displacement of his true parentage.  I always thought it'd be MUCh more powerful if Jon found this out privately. 

 

3.) If he is resurrected by Melisandre aka R'Hllor, he can dispel the nonsense of Stannis' "Lightbringer", as I assume he would be able to do what Beric Dondarrion did to a sword and make it on fire....also, what happens when you do this to a VALYRIAN STEEL sword?

 

 

 

So, in sum, I basically agree that the whole "they're dead....psyche" is kind of getting cliche'd, however I do think that Jon's story arc could use something as drastic as this, only to form him into who he's supposed to be, and to give the reveal of his dna. 

 

 

Great point. I felt very conflicted because Jon is in my top 5 chars I love and him and Arya were the first chars I identified and loved since the start of the show and the beginning of the books. A part of me was hopeful that even if he died he probably would be brought back but another part of me was groaning at the thought of a cliché resurrection. I'll try to keep an open mind though.


Edited by Petite Psycophant, 14 November 2013 - 09:07 PM.


#7 OberynBlackfyre

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:19 PM

 

 

My problem is the use of resurrection itself as a plot point. Not the fact that Jon would return as something else or exactly like himself. The title could use some improvement indeed.

 

@grand old duke of stark: exactly for that reason that I rather have Jon somehow survive than die and be resurrected. His wounds might not have been fatal. He says he didn't feel the 4th stabbing so he was stabbed at least 4 times. I hope someone would intervene before they can do lasting damage. somehow I find it hard to believe that Tormund wouldn't take any action. I'm pretty sure he's aware that Jon was the only person fighting for the wildings to be accepted at the wall. I cannot see this attack to result into anything other than war at wall between wildlings, crows and Stannis/Queen's men.

 

I think the betrayal alone is a huge enough ordeal to spark up any kind of change that GRRM would like to see. If he intended for Jon to be "reborn" I think the stabbing would be enough. Jon would have time to heal and hopefully get more connecting to Ghost since he's been fighting his wargness very hard. His last thought was "Ghost". I'm sure now he learned his lessons and would keep the wolf close (if Ghost survives) from now on.

 

 
 

 

 

Great point. I felt very conflicted because Jon is in my top 5 chars I love and him and Arya were the first chars I identified and loved since the start of the show and the beginning of the books. A part of me was hopeful that even if he died he probably would be brought back but another part of me was groaning at the thought of a cliché resurrection. I'll try to keep an open mind though.

 

 

 

trust me, a cliche resurrection would be the last thing I would want for Jon, but given where he was I feel like it will actually reveal/get him out of a lot of things.  But they better never, ever, ever try that on Arya. 



#8 SwordInDaDarkness

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:59 PM

Jon does not have die from his wounds. He could be in a coma like Bran. This might allow for the same scenario when he contacts Bran, finds out about his parentage and all that.

 

If he is fatally wounded then resurrection does not necessarily have to change him because he probably warged into Ghost. Thus his conscience is preserved for a while until he could come back into his own body. That was one of the points of the Varamyr prologue.

 

This is one advantage that neither Catelyn nor Beric had. Both of them lost part of themselves when they died but Jon does not have to. He might turn into a more stern character, he might say a big FUCK YOU to the NW, or he might stay despite everything, but I believe Jon in essence will not change. 



#9 Gannicus

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:02 PM

Agree OP, I'm over the whole resurrection thing.

 

Let's hope they're just flesh wounds.



#10 The Sleeper

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:07 PM

I can deal with resurrection in a fantasy series. Wounds to the gut and upper back that somehow aren't fatal though...



#11 Petite Psycophant

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:12 PM

Jon does not have die from his wounds. He could be in a coma like Bran. This might allow for the same scenario when he contacts Bran, finds out about his parentage and all that.

 

If he is fatally wounded then resurrection does not necessarily have to change him because he probably warged into Ghost. Thus his conscience is preserved for a while until he could come back into his own body. That was one of the points of the Varamyr prologue.

 

This is one advantage that neither Catelyn nor Beric had. Both of them lost part of themselves when they died but Jon does not have to. He might turn into a more stern character, he might say a big FUCK YOU to the NW, or he might stay despite everything, but I believe Jon in essence will not change. 

 

As I said, that's not the problem I have with Jon's possible resurrection. My problem is that the tool's been played out by now and feels too much like a cop-out. I'm talking about resurrection being used a plot device.

 

I do agree with Sleeper though that Jon recovering from his wounds would be a hard pill to swallow also.



#12 Northbound

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:16 PM

I'm well over the resurrection, via the Red God. Beric and Cat were enough for me. Doing it a third time with Jon is overkill, IMO. That being said I feel we with see something different this time. Finally seeing the power of the Old Gods, via the help of BR and Bran by a blood sacrifice is where I think we are headed.

Now, if that happens; I do not want the same old Jon back. It would better serve the story, for him to be much darker and colder. I'm not talking along the lines of evil, but someone that others would fear more. I think this would happen, from the time spent in Ghost.

Then again, he could just be wounded and out of commission for a bit. Who the heck knows. Can a brotha get WoW already!

#13 Raven in Winter

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:23 PM

I feel like he may simply survive and just heal normally or with the help of The Lord of Light (Mel).

#14 SwordInDaDarkness

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:26 PM

 

As I said, that's not the problem I have with Jon's possible resurrection. My problem is that the tool's been played out by now and feels too much like a cop-out. I'm talking about resurrection being used a plot device.

 

I do agree with Sleeper though that Jon recovering from his wounds would be a hard pill to swallow also.

 

But don't you think Jon dying like that is very abrupt with way too many loose ends? The devil is in the details, people get resurrected but the people that came back from the dead are not the ones who died. I'm saying that Jon could be a very different case from Beric or Catelyn.



#15 The Sleeper

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:32 PM

Raising the dead is part of the mechanics of the world. The first chapter starts with a zombie raised. We then get Beric and Coldhands. Neither were characters when they were alive. The first actual resurrection we see is on stage for a character we knew before and after is and I don't think anyone a warm and cuddly feeling that she survived. She did not. She is still dead. Then occasion is ser Robert Strong. In each and every case the resurrection is a horror element.

 

And I do think we are going to see a lot more of it. 



#16 The Sullen Sellsword

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:38 PM

I want him to succumb to his wounds, and never come back.



#17 Gannicus

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:51 PM

I can deal with resurrection in a fantasy series. Wounds to the gut and upper back that somehow aren't fatal though...

 

ah...there are many real life example of people surviving stab wounds in those areas. Of resurrection though...



#18 James Arryn

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:55 PM

My hope is that he didn't actually die.

If he did die, yeah, let him stay dead. UN-everything really destroys the 'honesty ' of death George says is important in the narrative. I was ok with Dondarrion as a 1-off. Cat is meh. UN-Jon would risk jumping the UN-shark for me.

#19 Petite Psycophant

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:57 PM

Raising the dead is part of the mechanics of the world. The first chapter starts with a zombie raised. We then get Beric and Coldhands. Neither were characters when they were alive. The first actual resurrection we see is on stage for a character we knew before and after is and I don't think anyone a warm and cuddly feeling that she survived. She did not. She is still dead. Then occasion is ser Robert Strong. In each and every case the resurrection is a horror element.

 

And I do think we are going to see a lot more of it. 

 

When it happens to POV chars though it feels cheap. This is just my opinion by the way. I understand that you're ok with people coming back to life left and right but to me it feels like a cop-out.

 

 

But don't you think Jon dying like that is very abrupt with way too many loose ends? The devil is in the details, people get resurrected but the people that came back from the dead are not the ones who died. I'm saying that Jon could be a very different case from Beric or Catelyn.

 

When I read about Jon being stabbed repeatedly two things crossed my mind. There's no way this is going to be the end of Jon because of the Rhaegar and Lyanna thing. Or they'll kill him for good which means he was Ned's bastard son after all. When I realized that he could die and be brought back I was devastated. Not so much because he might change when he's brought back. Unlike most people I think Jon is pretty bad-ass the way he is. I mean he's what 16 now? Great men all around him see potential in him. Tyrion, Mormont, Qohorin, Mance, Tormund, Aemon... He's one of those characters who you know will grow to be a great person and will go down in history. Yet somehow he's a bit of an underdog. But he always holds his own until now.

 

He got the crows to leave Sam alone and some even considered Sam to be a friend. He got Aemon to take Sam as a steward. He infiltrated the wildlings, gained Mance's trust, gained Tormund's trust and respect even when he turned on the wildlings he managed to make a peace bargain with him. He stood on the wall against the wildlings with a handful of crows and through his leadership and strategy still managed to defeat their first assault. He even helped Stannis in his war strategy. So far Jon has proven himself to be a better war strategist than Stannis.

 

As far as I'm concerned Jon is fierce, strong and bad-ass enough yet has this cuddle-likeness to him that I find very attractive. He has a good heart. He had to take a lot of shit from people all his life for being a bastard. As far as I'm concerned he's been through enough.

 

I'm well over the resurrection, via the Red God. Beric and Cat were enough for me. Doing it a third time with Jon is overkill, IMO. That being said I feel we with see something different this time. Finally seeing the power of the Old Gods, via the help of BR and Bran by a blood sacrifice is where I think we are headed.

Now, if that happens; I do not want the same old Jon back. It would better serve the story, for him to be much darker and colder. I'm not talking along the lines of evil, but someone that others would fear more. I think this would happen, from the time spent in Ghost.

Then again, he could just be wounded and out of commission for a bit. Who the heck knows. Can a brotha get WoW already!

 

Jon is bad-ass enough as he his. I don't want him to be darker nor colder. There are enough of those kind of characters in the books as it is. I love Jon's warm personality and he already became less affectionate when he became LC of the NW. We need more characters that are bad-ass yet have a good heart that succeed at anything.



#20 RoamingRonin

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:59 PM

I want him to succumb to his wounds, and never come back.

 

Cersei is that you? :P