Why didn't Tywin marry Sansa?

[Trigger Warning]

I think that Tywin liked to humiliate his enemies,especially females (his father's mistress, Tysha,Yaya), he wasn't able to beat Robb at batter field but could marry his sister to someone he considers grotesque and still claim the North if Tyrion's child was normal or get rid of Tyrion if the Northerners killed him.

Why would this over shadow all the other advantages marrying Sansa to Tyrion offers, for example.

- A Lannister/Stark heir could claim the north

- Tyrion would be Lord Protector and would be less concerned with claiming Casterly Rock

- It prevents the Tyrells gaining control of Sansa and her claim

I don't think humiliating Robb had anything to do with it and Tywin never faced Robb in battle. It's a political match and Tyrion is his son, a political tool to be used.

[Ice Turtle]

- A Lannister/Stark heir could claim the north
- It prevents the Tyrells gaining control of Sansa and her claim

This would still happen if he married Sansa himself and I don't think he was too concerned about Tyrion's feelings..

[The Sleeper]

Several reasons:

• It is not unlike him to humiliate his rival.
  
• He gets rid of Tyrion. No matter how much he thinks of Jaime as his heir, Tyrion's claim is perfectly legit and the other westermen don't seem to have a problem with him. After Tywin's death Tyrion might have been able to make good on his claim.
  
• It does produce a Stark/Lannister claimant to the North, though I don't believe Tyrion would have survived in the North for long. Once north only Sansa could have kept Tyrion alive.
  
• Keeps Sansa out of Tyrell hands.
  

[Trigger Warning]

- A Lannister/Stark heir could claim the north

- It prevents the Tyrells gaining control of Sansa and her claim

This would still happen if he married Sansa himself and I don't think he was too concerned about Tyrion's feelings..

But why marry her himself when he can have his son do it and in doing so remove him from Casterly Rock and pushing his claim?

He's an ageing high lord, marrying the sister of a vanquished traitor is far beneath him.

He'd be mocked for it.

[Lummel]

He's plenty virile enough for Sansa to produce issue, people would have a lot more respect for his son then an Imp, seems like a missed opportunity.

Because he wants to prevent Tyrion from inheriting Casterly Rock. Marrying Tyrion to the North removes him honourably from the Lannister realm, also dishonours the Starks and ties them into the Lannister family cementing an extension of the Lannister empire across Westeros. Note that Tywin was already planning to make Roose Bolton Warden of the North - so Tyrion would not have been given complete control over the north rather power would have been split between Tyrion and Roose. It is not a straightforward reward, it is a morass that could have kept Tyrion out of the south, away from Casterly Rock but might have eventually provided Tywin with a sufficiently acceptable Lannisterish heir to Winterfell.

[Ice Turtle]

But why marry her himself when he can have his son do it and in doing so remove him from Casterly Rock and pushing his claim?

He's an ageing high lord, marrying the sister of a vanquished traitor is far beneath him.

He'd be mocked for it.

Sansa is still a heir to Winterfell, she was good enough for Willas and Robert Arryn. And Tyrion marring Sansa doesn't automatically remove his claim to CR.

[Net-Viper X]

lolwut? this is a joke right?

Lol, yes. I was making a joke about the fact that Tywin gave Tyrion all that shit about sleeping with whores and not to take a whore to kings landing, then Tywin turns right around and sleeps with the very same whore right there in the hands tower.

[Iona]

Sansa is still a heir to Winterfell, she was good enough for Willas and Robert Arryn. And Tyrion marring Sansa doesn't automatically remove his claim to CR.

This. I always thought that after Tywin kicked the bucket, Tyrion and his lady wife would have moved to CR, appointed a castellan to take care of Winterfell and make some sons. First son is groomed to be the heir to CR, second is sent north to act as a page to some noble house and then squire with some local hero to be knighted later on (or something like that) until he comes of age and takes over WF.

[Trigger Warning]

Sansa is still a heir to Winterfell, she was good enough for Willas and Robert Arryn. And Tyrion marring Sansa doesn't automatically remove his claim to CR.

No but it would make him Lord Protector in the North until his son came of age, meaning he can't press his claim in the Westerlands. Giving time for Tywin to rouse support for whoever he chooses as the heir to Casterly Rock.

It's not that Sansa isn't good enough. It's that the proud and mighty Tywin Lannister wouldn't have himself be seen to be marrying a young girl just to clutch at the north.

[Lummel]

No, being married into Winterfell wouldn't in any legal sense remove Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock. That is the beauty of it. It is more subtle than that. Given the Red Wedding, given inevitable northern resentment at the Lannisters and the Boltons, given the division of power in the north between Roose Bolton as Warden of the North and his unbalanced and now legitimised son Ramsey on the one hand and Tyrion as Lord Protector of Winterfell, husband to the Stark heiress on the other (and traditional overlords and wardens of the north) plus the fact that winter is coming Tyrion is going to have be in the north and mostly in the saddle, either on campaign or able to be to enforce his rule, make it a reality and defend it against rivals and the resentful.

Appointing a castellian to do the job for him is a great idea. But who can he trust? Bronn? Bronn, in Tyrion's own words, is scum. The likes of Manderly, Umber, Mormont, Karstark, Glover, Norrey, Flint etc, etc are not going to be overwhelmed and disarmed with warm feelings of love for a regime that was behind the Red Wedding, the death of The Ned and now plants a lowborn scoundrel in Winterfell to rule over them.

So the likely outcome is that Tyrion would spend most of his life in a northern tar pit, either trying to distance himself from other Lannisters and the Boltons to win support and assert himself as overlord in the North or playing second fiddle to the Boltons and alienating other northern families in order to hang on to Winterfell.

It's reasonably diabolical I think on Tywin's part, particularly as he must have hit on this plan at relatively short notice.

[Iona]

Appointing a castellian to do the job for him is a great idea. But who can he trust? Bronn? Bronn, in Tyrion's own words, is scum. The likes of Manderly, Umber, Mormont, Karstark, Glover, Norrey, Flint etc, etc are not going to be overwhelmed and disarmed with warm feelings of love for a regime that was behind the Red Wedding, the death of The Ned and now plants a lowborn scoundrel in Winterfell to rule over them.

I think that appointing a castellan would need to be a joint effort by Tyrion and Sansa, with Sansa being the one that is actually seen to pick the guy. That way it would be easier for the northeners to accept the appointed castellan as more legitimate, since the guy was chosen by the rightful heir, daughter of the Ned, etc. The chosen castellan would have to be someone from the north, no southron lord could ever run Winterfell, nor a lowborn sellsword upstart like Bronn. Tyrion should take the back seat when it comes to WF and its matters and concentrate on governing CR.

[Iona]

It would seem that I have double posted... :blushing:

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

Because whoever married Sansa would eventually have to go North with her son to take up regent-lordship in Winterfell and Tywin meant to stay in KL as Hand. Also, whichever Lannister married her, it would be rape. Tywin never does his evil acts with his own hands, he always has someone else do his dirty work.

well said

[Lummel]

I think that appointing a castellan would need to be a joint effort by Tyrion and Sansa, with Sansa being the one that is actually seen to pick the guy. That way it would be easier for the northeners to accept the appointed castellan as more legitimate, since the guy was chosen by the rightful heir, daughter of the Ned, etc. The chosen castellan would have to be someone from the north, no southron lord could ever run Winterfell, nor a lowborn sellsword upstart like Bronn. Tyrion should take the back seat when it comes to WF and its matters and concentrate on governing CR.

I think it is questionable if Sansa would ahve been allowed to return North, still less permitted to pick a castellan to rule for Tyrion and Sansa in absentia. If the purpose of a Sansa marriage is to put a Lannister grandchild of Tywin's on the seat of the Lord of Winterfell - and a theme of Tyrion's POV is the importance of being a Lannister and Lannister values, that is an objective that can only be accomplished by Tyrion being there in person. This is a rule that will have to backed up by the sword and will need somebody in the north to make decisions. It's not a situation that could be delegated to a subordinate.

[Iona]

I think it is questionable if Sansa would ahve been allowed to return North, still less permitted to pick a castellan to rule for Tyrion and Sansa in absentia. If the purpose of a Sansa marriage is to put a Lannister grandchild of Tywin's on the seat of the Lord of Winterfell - and a theme of Tyrion's POV is the importance of being a Lannister and Lannister values, that is an objective that can only be accomplished by Tyrion being there in person. This is a rule that will have to backed up by the sword and will need somebody in the north to make decisions. It's not a situation that could be delegated to a subordinate.

In my scenario Sansa would not be allowed to return north, at least not before she filled her duty of popping out a few sons. Sansa would "rule" Winterfell from Casterly Rock through the appointed castellan, meaning that the correspondence between CR and WF would be done in her name. Basically Tyrion and/or Tywin would make the bigger decisions, but Sansa signs the letters. This would of course require that the chosen castellan would be one they could trust to be loyal to Sansa/the Starks.

[Annara Snow]

Tywin didn't marry anyone after Joanna because he didn't want to. He's a major hypocrite - he makes his children enter political marriages they don't want to be in, but he himself wants to remain free of sharing bed with any wives that he doesn't love or fathering any more children, while he satisfies his sexual needs with whores.

Are we looking at it as rape from our perspective then as lots of these marriages were not amicable,say Cersie was made to marry again like Twin wanted would we be calling that rape?

If the husband forced her to have sex when she refused, yes.

We're looking at it as rape because it's rape. That's what the definition of rape is, forcing sex on someone against their will.

Sansa was probably the best match Tyrion was ever gonna get in his life, since she was a hostage and wasn't allowed to say no. Tywin had tried to arrange a match for Tyrion since forever and everybody kept refusing him, so Tywin saw a chance in Sansa and went with it. He got the North and got Tyrion out of his sight in a single move.

Funny how Tyrion didn't think so. In fact, he thought that she was one of the worst matches he could have gotten, since she was a hostage and not allowed to say no, hated his family (for excellent reasons) and was physically repulsed by him. Tyrion would think that his best match was someone who actually wanted to have sex with him, and preferably loved him. The best match he was ever gonna get in his life was Tysha, but Tywin took care to destroy their relationship.

[Gurkhal]

Tywin didn't marry anyone after Joanna because he didn't want to. He's a major hypocrite - he makes his children enter political marriages they don't want to be in, but he himself wants to remain free of sharing bed with any wives that he doesn't love or fathering any more children, while he satisfies his sexual needs with whores.

How does it make him a hypocrite? He entered the marriage that his father/grandfather had decided that he would enter and had children in it, like he was supposed to. That he expects his children to do the same as he did does not make him a hypocrite. In regards to Cersei its a solution to prevent her from influencing her children, put an end to the incest rumors as well as remove her from political power where she's already been given a chance and fallen flat.

[rivergirl]

(This might be a stupid question, so i apologise if it is) Would marrying Sansa and claiming Winterfell actually have any effect on Tyrion inheriting Casterly Rock? As far as i understand it (and i might be wrong) it would just mean his and Sansa's hypothetical children get both seats.

Anyway, i think it was partly because he knew the North remembered, and he knew he would have to rape Sansa. Personally, i was surprised there wasn't more of an uproar over AryaJeyne and Ramsay, but that may be because they knew it wasn't really Arya.

Sansa is seen by the Northmen as Ned's sweet, gentle, beautiful young girl who believes in songs and stories and true wuv. I don't think Tywin would be willing to incur their wrath by raping her. He might even have hoped the Northmen would flip shit and take their revenge on Tyrion.

[Gurkhal]

(This might be a stupid question, so i apologise if it is) Would marrying Sansa and claiming Winterfell actually have any effect on Tyrion inheriting Casterly Rock? As far as i understand it (and i might be wrong) it would just mean his and Sansa's hypothetical children get both seats.

Anyway, i think it was partly because he knew the North remembered, and he knew he would have to rape Sansa. Personally, i was surprised there wasn't more of an uproar over AryaJeyne and Ramsay, but that may be because they knew it wasn't really Arya.

Sansa is seen by the Northmen as Ned's sweet, gentle, beautiful young girl who believes in songs and stories and true wuv. I don't think Tywin would be willing to incur their wrath by raping her. He might even have hoped the Northmen would flip shit and take their revenge on Tyrion.

You are entirely correct as far as I can see. Tyrion's claim to the Rock would not change at all with any marriage.

[Iona]

Funny how Tyrion didn't think so. In fact, he thought that she was one of the worst matches he could have gotten, since she was a hostage and not allowed to say no, hated his family (for excellent reasons) and was physically repulsed by him. Tyrion would think that his best match was someone who actually wanted to have sex with him, and preferably loved him. The best match he was ever gonna get in his life was Tysha, but Tywin took care to destroy their relationship.

I think that in this instance the "best match Tyrion was ever going to get" does not refer to personal preferences and should not be viewed that way. We hear that Tywin tried to marry Tyrion off to many a noble famielies, even Lollys was an option at some point, but everyone refused. In that sense this was the best _arranged_ marriage that he was like to get.