Why didn't Tywin marry Sansa?

[Iona]

I expect they would have appointed a castellan. It would have been easier for the Tyrells to get their castellan accepted than it would have been for the Lannisters, because the Tyrells have never been directly involved in doing anything horrible to a Stark. The Tyrells are also much better at winning people over. So their castellan could have run Winterfell in Sansa's name while she popped out babies down in Highgarden, and once a son of hers was old enough, he would be sent North to be fostered and eventually assume the lordship.

It all sounds rosey on paper, but as I wrote earlier, I highly doubt that the Northeners would look kindly if some southron lordling was sent up to Winterfell to run it. I'd say the castellan would need to be someone from the north, not only to get the popularity points, but mainly because governing a northern castle and it's lands is nothing like hawking, breeding dogs and growing roses down south.

[complexphoenix]

It all sounds rosey on paper, but as I wrote earlier, I highly doubt that the Northeners would look kindly if some southron lordling was sent up to Winterfell to run it. I'd say the castellan would need to be someone from the north, not only to get the popularity points, but mainly because governing a northern castle and it's lands is nothing like hawking, breeding dogs and growing roses down south.

That's true, but the North still respects blood and Sansa is Robb's legal heir with Bran and Rickon believed dead. And as I said, the Tyrells are good at PR. If Sansa married Willas instead of Tyrion Robb might not have disinherited her. The castellan, whoever he was, would have faced a lot of challenges, but they would not have been anything insurmountable for a competent administrator.

[Gurkhal]

Not according to GRRM. He said Tywin "probably" married for love. Or maybe he married to preserve the bloodline. He wasn't even sure whose idea it was, apparently he forgot when the Tywin/Johanna marriage was first brokered. :lol: Seems he didn't give Tywin's backstory that much thinking.

Whatever the case may be, Tywin loved his wife, and Tywin could have made a political match for himself many times since his wife died, and he choose not to. But he doesn't give his children the same option.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

GRRM does not say that "Tywin probably married for love and by that I mean that he did marry for love". But rather he says that it could've been love but there are also another non-romantic reason for Tywin to marry Joanna. There are several maybes in GRRM's answer to the question so I don't think that we can really say that it this "This is the one and only way that GRRM has declared Tywin's marriage to be about and for!"

Also that Tywin loved his wife, good for him. Eddard and Catelyn loved each other but they were still ok with arranging for Sansa to marry Joffrey for political reasons. Does that make Eddard Stark a hypocrite? No, it does not. Tywin married and happened to love his wife and there is no reason why he can't expect his children to follow suite and marry for the benefit of the House.

[David Selig]

GRRM does not say that "Tywin probably married for love and by that I mean that he did marry for love". But rather he says that it could've been love but there are also another non-romantic reason for Tywin to marry Joanna. There are several maybes in GRRM's answer to the question so I don't think that we can really say that it this "This is the one and only way that GRRM has declared Tywin's marriage to be about and for!"

Also that Tywin loved his wife, good for him. Eddard and Catelyn loved each other but they were still ok with arranging for Sansa to marry Joffrey for political reasons. Does that make Eddard Stark a hypocrite? No, it does not. Tywin married and happened to love his wife and there is no reason why he can't expect his children to follow suite and marry for the benefit of the House.

He spent 25 years without getting married again for the benefit of his house. That's definitely hypocritical.

[complexphoenix]

GRRM does not say that "Tywin probably married for love and by that I mean that he did marry for love". But rather he says that it could've been love but there are also another non-romantic reason for Tywin to marry Joanna. There are several maybes in GRRM's answer to the question so I don't think that we can really say that it this "This is the one and only way that GRRM has declared Tywin's marriage to be about and for!"

Also that Tywin loved his wife, good for him. Eddard and Catelyn loved each other but they were still ok with arranging for Sansa to marry Joffrey for political reasons. Does that make Eddard Stark a hypocrite? No, it does not. Tywin married and happened to love his wife and there is no reason why he can't expect his children to follow suite and marry for the benefit of the House.

Ned and Cat's marriage was arranged for completely political reasons, and love flowered between them in the years that followed because they were both good people who treated each other well. Ned was probably hoping at first that Sansa and Joffrey's marriage would work out similarly, and when it became clear to him that Joffrey was bad news, he began moving to cancel the betrothal.

Regardless of the exact reason Tywin and Joanna's marriage came about, it's abundantly clear that Tywin already loved her when their wedding was celebrated, because he gave one of his extremely rare smiles to his bride at the altar.

[Gurkhal]

He spent 25 years without getting married again for the benefit of his house. That's definitely hypocritical.

What benefit would there be? He already had children that could inherit after him and by marrying them he could obtain the absolute same alliances that his own marriage would do. Most importantly the alliance with House Baratheon through Cersei. As you might know its dangerous to have to many offsprings who can compete for a title and thus filling the worlds with little Lannisters would only beg for a civil war for the Rock. Look at House Frey for a horror story about to many people with a claim to press.

Ned and Cat's marriage was arranged for completely political reasons, and love flowered between them in the years that followed because they were both good people who treated each other well. Ned was probably hoping at first that Sansa and Joffrey's marriage would work out similarly, and when it became clear to him that Joffrey was bad news, he began moving to cancel the betrothal.

Regardless of the exact reason Tywin and Joanna's marriage came about, it's abundantly clear that Tywin already loved her when their wedding was celebrated, because he gave one of his extremely rare smiles to his bride at the altar.

Indeed, and good for him that he and, I would suppose Joanna, loved their match but I doubt that the love was the reason for the marriage.

[Iona]

That's true, but the North still respects blood and Sansa is Robb's legal heir with Bran and Rickon believed dead. And as I said, the Tyrells are good at PR. If Sansa married Willas instead of Tyrion Robb might not have disinherited her. The castellan, whoever he was, would have faced a lot of challenges, but they would not have been anything insurmountable for a competent administrator.

I could mildly agree with this, but the fact that the Tyrells went over to Lannisters and married their daughter to (two of) them might work against the poor castellan. I guess if the castellan came to WF with some back up troops and dozens of wagons carrying food stuff and other goodies then the welcome might not be _as_ icy... :D

[Annara Snow]

What benefit would there be? He already had children that could inherit after him and by marrying them he could obtain the absolute same alliances that his own marriage would do. Most importantly the alliance with House Baratheon through Cersei. As you might know its dangerous to have to many offsprings who can compete for a title and thus filling the worlds with little Lannisters would only beg for a civil war for the Rock. Look at House Frey for a horror story about to many people with a claim to press.

Jaime had given up Casterly Rock when he joined Kinsguard, and Tywin didn't want to allow Tyrion to get CR. Cersei was meanwhile busy being the queen in King's Landing, and her children being princes/kings.

Tywin was in no danger of having too many heirs. If anything, he could have done with one or two more.

[Theda Baratheon]

As big of hypocrite as Tywin was, I bet the reason he didn't marry Sansa is because he already had plans to marry Shae.

LOL. No way in hell.

[Rheagar Prime]

always it was because he was impotent

[The Dragon King]

What benefit would there be? He already had children that could inherit after him and by marrying them he could obtain the absolute same alliances that his own marriage would do. Most importantly the alliance with House Baratheon through Cersei. As you might know its dangerous to have to many offsprings who can compete for a title and thus filling the worlds with little Lannisters would only beg for a civil war for the Rock. Look at House Frey for a horror story about to many people with a claim to press.

Indeed, and good for him that he and, I would suppose Joanna, loved their match but I doubt that the love was the reason for the marriage.

Having a lot of offspring is only a problem if they don't have a place to go, if you can set up a bunch of candet branches of House Lannister it's a very good thing.

[Dornishpenguin]

I could mildly agree with this, but the fact that the Tyrells went over to Lannisters and married their daughter to (two of) them might work against the poor castellan. I guess if the castellan came to WF with some back up troops and dozens of wagons carrying food stuff and other goodies then the welcome might not be _as_ icy... :D

At this point, the North would be desperate for a Stark heir. For obvious reasons, a Lannistark heir would be controversial, but the Tyrells might be able to get away with appointing the son of a Sansa/Willas marriage as Lord of Winterfell. They did not do anything to directly harm the Starks and could always claim that the Lannisters forced Margaery to marry Joffrey/Tommen. The lie might even work if they talked about their scheming against the Lannisters, such as the PW.

To answer the original question, Tywin was a coward and I don't think that he ever intended for any possible child of the Sansa/Tyrion union to claim Winterfell. If having a Lannister/Stark heir to Winterfell was his ultimate endgame, he'd have wed Sansa to someone proven to be fertile or at least more likely to be respected by the Northerners. Someone with Lannister blood was unlikely to inherit WF, but there would be a better chance if his father was at least a strong knight instead of a dwarf. There is also the humiliation factor of Sansa's wedding- I doubt anyone believed that her marrying into the Lannisters was consensual. Tywin marrying her himself and raping would have forever cast him as the awful lecherous old man instead of a pragmatic schemer. It was better for him to have Tyrion take on the villain role. I can't imagine Tywin marrying a crying preteen with the whole court watching.

[Colonel Green]

By ASOS, Tywin is in the same situation described by Roose Bolton in ADWD: he would have dubious odds of living to see any new child grown to adulthood, potentially leaving his lands to a boy-lord.

He really should have remarried after Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and had he been younger it would have made sense to marry Sansa himself, but by the time of the story it's probably a missed window.

And then there are are the extra-textual reasons that others have already outlined.

[Iona]

At this point, the North would be desperate for a Stark heir. For obvious reasons, a Lannistark heir would be controversial, but the Tyrells might be able to get away with appointing the son of a Sansa/Willas marriage as Lord of Winterfell. They did not do anything to directly harm the Starks and could always claim that the Lannisters forced Margaery to marry Joffrey/Tommen. The lie might even work if they talked about their scheming against the Lannisters, such as the PW. .

The talk was of castellans. The north would welcome an heir with Stark blood, but the castellan needs to rule over Winterfell until the heir comes of age. The bolded part is a gross underestimation of the northmen's intelligence, and the Tyrell's too for that matter. They are no Freys.

[Annara Snow]

There is also the humiliation factor of Sansa's wedding- I doubt anyone believed that her marrying into the Lannisters was consensual. Tywin marrying her himself and raping would have forever cast him as the awful lecherous old man instead of a pragmatic schemer. It was better for him to have Tyrion take on the villain role. I can't imagine Tywin marrying a crying preteen with the whole court watching.

Excellent point. Tywin is all about appearances. When it suits him to be seen as ruthless, he likes to have songs about his ruthlessness, But it's good to have your dirty work done by others that you can blame and wipe your hands clean when it suits you (It was all the Mountain and Amory Lorch! You Dornishmen will get justice!)

[Gurkhal]

Having a lot of offspring is only a problem if they don't have a place to go, if you can set up a bunch of candet branches of House Lannister it's a very good thing.

That incorrect. Having a lot of offspring is only a problem if they press their claims. House Lannistera already have several cadet branches and and most certainly don't need any more of them.

[The Dragon King]

That incorrect. Having a lot of offspring is only a problem if they press their claims. House Lannistera already have several cadet branches and and most certainly don't need any more of them.

You can only press a claim if you have one in the first place. As far as the cadet branches, they're in the Riverlands? You want to expand and take over other territories, installing Lannisters as Lords in other Kingdoms, eventually annexing them.

[Gurkhal]

You can only press a claim if you have one in the first place. As far as the cadet branches, they're in the Riverlands? You want to expand and take over other territories, installing Lannisters as Lords in other Kingdoms, eventually annexing them.

Blackfyre didn't really have a legal claim, but he pressed it anyway. Same with Aegon II and Renly. To press a claim a you don't need an ironclad law on your side but only a reasonable or somewhat acceptable pretext for it.

It is true that you may want to widen the House and so increase its power and make good lives for you relatives, both are something to aim for unless those relatives are kind of jerks. But these guys will be under the legal authority of another Lord Paramount who most certainly will see this coming a mile away.

[The Dragon King]

Blackfyre didn't really have a legal claim, but he pressed it anyway. Same with Aegon II and Renly. To press a claim a you don't need an ironclad law on your side but only a reasonable or somewhat acceptable pretext for it.

It is true that you may want to widen the House and so increase its power and make good lives for you relatives, both are something to aim for unless those relatives are kind of jerks. But these guys will be under the legal authority of another Lord Paramount who most certainly will see this coming a mile away.

Renly didnt have any semblance of a legal claim, he just had enough men at his back during a chaotic period where he thought enough people simply wouldnt care, and he was right, if he wasn't assassinated he'd likely have been King. I'm not sure why additional cadet branches are a problem if a later born child can make a grab at a high station, the truth is that claims are just a method of preserving the current power structure, if things are chaotic you'll see people trying to put themselves higher up in the new structure. That said, if you have a strong man like Tywin steering the ship he can make tremendous use of those cadet Houses. They're a blade that can cut both ways I agree, so you have them take over other Houses during war, you defeat your neighbor and install the cadet branches in that territory, which is then annexed and under the Lordship of the Tywin!

It works, from Alexander to McDonalds the strategy has been successfully used.