Does Lazy Leo (and Loras) know...?

[Jon of the Dead]

About the Others, and the obsidian in Dragonstone? I think he does:

First, Sam tells Alleras about it:

He spoke awkwardly of King Stannis and Melisandre of Asshai, intending to stop at that, but one thing led to another and he found himself speaking of Mance Rayder and his wildlings, king’s blood and dragons, and before he knew what was happening, all the rest came spilling out; the wights at the Fist of First Men, the Other on his dead horse, the murder of the Old Bear at Craster’s Keep, Gilly and their flight, Whitetree and Small Paul, Coldhands and the ravens, Jon’s becoming lord commander, the Blackbird, Dareon, Braavos, the dragons Xhondo saw in Qarth, the Cinnamon Wind and all that Maester Aemon whispered toward the end.

Then Marwyn says:

“Tell me all you told our Dornish sphinx. I know much of it and more, but some small parts may have escaped my notice.”

And Leo is literally in the next room, maybe hearing everything. And maybe Marwyn told him. Leo seems to be part of Marwyn's secret circle even before Alleras and "Pate", and he saw the glass candles before as well:

Lazy Leo burst out laughing. “Not possible for you, you mean. I saw the candle burning with my own eyes."

“I know what I saw. The light was queer and bright, much brighter than any beeswax or tallow candle. It cast strange shadows and the flame never flickered, not even when a draft blew through the open door behind me.”

This description is spot on. And he even seemed to be using one when Sam met him:

At the top of the steps, a pale blond youth about Sam’s age sat outside a door of oak and iron, staring intently into a candle flame with his right eye. His left was hidden beneath a fall of ash blond hair. “What are you looking for?” Alleras asked him. “Your destiny? Your death?”

The blond youth turned from the candle, blinking. “Naked women,” he said.

It's a bit weird that there's no peculiar description about the candle Leo is watching, but if it isn't a glass candle, why would Leo be gazing intently into it, looking for naked women? (Heh, Leo just invented porn)

And then, to top it off, he says:

“They do,” mused Alleras, the Sphinx, “and if there are dragons in the world again...”

“Dragons and darker things,” said Leo. “The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. "

This easily could refer to the Others, as we've seen other characters refer to them in these terms

So, I think Leo knows about the threat up North, but what consequences could it have?

Well, I don't think GRRM included Leo in Marwyn's group just to give Sam a nasty, former bully. He could've chosen someone from other Reach house who knew Sam from before. So why a Tyrell?

I used to believe Loras took Redwyne's fleet to defend the Reach, but after noticing this, it doesn't seem likely:

Hundreds of their ships afflict us now, sailing out of the Shield Islands and some of the rocks around the Arbor. They have taken Stonecrab Cay, the Isle of Pigs, and the Mermaid’s Palace, and there are other nests on Horseshoe Rock and Bastard’s Cradle.

Without Lord Redwyne’s fleet, we lack the ships to come to grips with them.”

Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King’s Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash.”

Surely the captain of Oldtown must be aware of the current defense of the Reach, and he says that the Redwyne is definetely absent. And there's no way Loras took the fleet to defend Highgarden because it isn't as threatened as Oldtown and the Arbor ("If King's Landing loses Oldtown and the Arbor the whole realm will fall to pieces"), and Paxter would definetely want to defend his land.

So the fleet isn't at the Reach. That's why I think it really is at Dragonstone. So why did Loras volunteer to lead the assault?

1) To do it fast and free the fleet to defend the Reach

And...

2) Because Leo (his cousin) already tipped the Tyrells (they're family after all, so it is in his best interests to inform them) about the obsidian at Dragonstone and the possible threat of the Others. Maybe most of them didn't believe them, but Loras has already show signs of not being so skeptic, because he believed the thing about the shadow baby

I think Loras really is at Dragonstone, getting that obsidian supply for Team Tyrell/Redwyne. And maybe he really got burn, but not by oil, but down in the fire of the mines of Dragonmont

[So NOT a Maiden Fair]

I like this!

"And maybe he really got burn, but not by oil, but down in the fire of the mines of Dragonmont"

I think it's possible they didn't want to give further information on this to the Lannisters. Nice catch, I say.

[Red Raven]

I never thought about any communication between Leo and Loras. I forgot Leo was a Tyrell so thank you, nice work!

[Fire Eater]

The assault on DG was before Sam came to Oldtown and told Lazy Leo. Besides, I doubt Lazy Leo was serious enough to contact his distant cousin about it.

[Master Shake]

Good read, i like it.

[Jon of the Dead]

The assault on DG was before Sam came to Oldtown and told Lazy Leo. Besides, I doubt Lazy Leo was serious enough to contact his distant cousin about it.

I said Leo gave hints on knowing about the Others before meeting Sam, since the prologue

And just because someone doesn't act serious, it doesn't mean they aren't. He is certainly interested in maintaining his status and position, so I don't think it's too unlikely that he wrote to his cousins telling them about the rumors he heard and what Marwyn says

[Fire Eater]

I said Leo gave hints on knowing about the Others before meeting Sam, since the prologue

And just because someone doesn't act serious, it doesn't mean they aren't. He is certainly interested in maintaining his status and position, so I don't think it's too unlikely that he wrote to his cousins telling them about the rumors he heard and what Marwyn says

He never mentions anything about the Others in the Prologue, only dragons and glass candles.

How seriously do you think his relatives would have taken him regarding the Others and obsidian? The Tyrells have a present enemy at hand they know exists: Ironmen and Stannis, so they have their minds occupied.

[BitsOfBrains]

I always thought there had to be a reason for Lady Dustins rant about how maesters don't always shed their old loyalties.

This very well could be it/part of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the queen of thorns had Leo on instructions to keep her posted about important stuff.

I doubt he sent anything straight to Loras, but its perfectly reasonable to believe Leo sent word to the QoT. Whether she would believe him and or send word on to Loras, maybe.

[Jon of the Dead]

He never mentions anything about the Others in the Prologue, only dragons and glass candles.

How seriously do you think his relatives would have taken him regarding the Others and obsidian?

“They do,” mused Alleras, the Sphinx, “and if there are dragons in the world again...”

“Dragons and darker things,” said Leo. “The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. "

This are some heavy hints of the Others (what other thing is "darker" than dragons, that we know of? Aren't the Others referred as "shadows" on several occasions?), and it happened in the prologue. It was in the OP

As I said (again, on the OP), I doubt people like Mace or even Margaery would believe him, but Loras already showed that he's less skeptic than them by believing the thing about the shadowbaby. And if he believed that, why shouldn't he believe something about the Others, especially when it's coming from a family member, a reliable source that happens to be in the Citadel, the capital of knowledge in Westeros?

Also, I don't think Loras volunteered just because Leo told him. The siege of Dragonstone was already under way thanks to Cersei, but Loras offered to deal with it fast and, while he's there, he could have checked out the rumors his cousin told him about.

[Sansa_Stark]

What could be darker than dragons?

I like this theor.

[Fire Eater]

This are some heavy hints of the Others (what other thing is "darker" than dragons, that we know of? Aren't the Others referred as "shadows" on several occasions?), and it happened in the prologue. It was in the OP

As I said (again, on the OP), I doubt people like Mace or even Margaery would believe him, but Loras already showed that he's less skeptic than them by believing the thing about the shadowbaby. And if he believed that, why shouldn't he believe something about the Others, especially when it's coming from a family member, a reliable source that happens to be in the Citadel, the capital of knowledge in Westeros?

Also, I don't think Loras volunteered just because Leo told him. The siege of Dragonstone was already under way thanks to Cersei, but Loras offered to deal with it fast and, while he's there, he could have checked out the rumors his cousin told him about.

I think those "heavy hints" are actually pretty vague, and there is nothing to suggest he is hinting at the Others as it's a bit of a leap to go from darker things to shadows to Others.

I don't think Loras knows about Mel's shadowbabies just that Brienne is innocent, and that sorcery was likely involved. Loras witnessed the work of shadowbabies firsthand while the Others are far away behind the Wall, and I doubt he has heard of any info about them.

I never said Loras volunteered because Leo told him. I think his only concern was ending the siege ASAP so Rewdyne's fleet could aid against the Ironborn.

[Kissed by Ice and Fire]

This are some heavy hints of the Others (what other thing is "darker" than dragons, that we know of? Aren't the Others referred as "shadows" on several occasions?), and it happened in the prologue. It was in the OP

As I said (again, on the OP), I doubt people like Mace or even Margaery would believe him, but Loras already showed that he's less skeptic than them by believing the thing about the shadowbaby. And if he believed that, why shouldn't he believe something about the Others, especially when it's coming from a family member, a reliable source that happens to be in the Citadel, the capital of knowledge in Westeros?

Also, I don't think Loras volunteered just because Leo told him. The siege of Dragonstone was already under way thanks to Cersei, but Loras offered to deal with it fast and, while he's there, he could have checked out the rumors his cousin told him about.

I like it. It'd be cool for the Citadel stuff to tie in with other characters we know who are not yet at the wall. And I've been wondering about who may mine the dragonglass now that Stannis abandoned his seat for the North. It would be a great tie in for Loras to become a big part of the Other war.

[Jon of the Dead]

I think those "heavy hints" are actually pretty vague, and there is nothing to suggest he is hinting at the Others as it's a bit of a leap to go from darker things to shadows to Others.

I don't think Loras knows about Mel's shadowbabies just that Brienne is innocent, and that sorcery was likely involved. Loras witnessed the work of shadowbabies firsthand while the Others are far away behind the Wall, and I doubt he has heard of any info about them.

I never said Loras volunteered because Leo told him. I think his only concern was ending the siege ASAP so Rewdyne's fleet could aid against the Ironborn.

"Pretty vague"? Off the top of my head, I can think of the Others being called "white shadows" on at least 2 occasions, they are often described as "shadows moving through the trees", Ygritte said that they let those "shades" out into the world, and I think Mormont too.

And as Strongboar said, what is darker than dragons? And what about the "Old powers"? I don't think that's vague at all, the Others have been called thus before.

Regarding Loras, you said it yourself. He believed in sorcery, it doesn't really mattered which type of sorcery, because the point is that he proved to be open-minded enough to consider a supernatural possibility. And if he believed Brienne, who was (in his mind) a prime suspect, why wouldn't he believe his own family?

[juanml82]

What could be darker than dragons?

 

I like this theor.

Shadowbabies and maybe some other forms of magic which are growing in strength since the hatching of the dragons.

While it might mean the others, it's not the only possible explanation

[Jon of the Dead]

Shadowbabies and maybe some other forms of magic which are growing in strength since the hatching of the dragons.

While it might mean the others, it's not the only possible explanation

I agree, but the words "darker things", "old powers waken", "shadows stir" have been frequently related to the Others, I think

[Jon of the Dead]

Eh, what the hell, I'm bumping this

[Arya kiddin']

I like this very much actually, until the point that Leo Tyrell knows. I agree "darker things", "old powers waken", "shadows stir" etc refer to Others in this context. I'm actually not sure how well does Leo knows Loras, or how much would Loras believe him. There is also the point that Loras would first try to save his own home, instead of rushing out to save the realm. This is a plausible scenario, definitely up for consideration. But we can't really conclude much as of now. :)

[SeanF]

I think Leo is far too thick and lazy either to know or care about such things. He's the archetypical spoilt aristocrat, whose pride far exceeds his intelligence, and whose position in society (younger son of a younger son) is much lowlier than he thinks it should be.

[Arya kiddin']

I think Leo is far too thick and lazy either to know or care about such things. He's the archetypical spoilt aristocrat, whose pride far exceeds his intelligence, and whose position in society (younger son of a younger son) is much lowlier than he thinks it should be.

While that is the way it is certainly presented, I think his use of all that cryptic lingo, and him being in Marwyn's inner circle does warrant a second glance. Martin has put a Tyrell and a Martell bastard together in Oldtown, this simply is not a coincidence.

[The Sleeper]

For all we know Leo and Loras haven't even met.