Does Lazy Leo (and Loras) know...?

[Fire Eater]

"Pretty vague"? Off the top of my head, I can think of the Others being called "white shadows" on at least 2 occasions, they are often described as "shadows moving through the trees", Ygritte said that they let those "shades" out into the world, and I think Mormont too.

And as Strongboar said, what is darker than dragons? And what about the "Old powers"? I don't think that's vague at all, the Others have been called thus before.

Regarding Loras, you said it yourself. He believed in sorcery, it doesn't really mattered which type of sorcery, because the point is that he proved to be open-minded enough to consider a supernatural possibility. And if he believed Brienne, who was (in his mind) a prime suspect, why wouldn't he believe his own family?

The Others are called "white shadows" while Leo says "darker things". Old powers could refer to the glass candles burning, and magic having been amplified since dragons have come back into the world. Darker things could have meant anything like kinds of dark magic that are woken like the warlocks.

There is a difference regarding Loras, shadows killed Renly when he was close by while none of the Others killed anyone he loved beyond the Wall. He has proof of the shadow magic while none for the Others.

I think Leo is far too thick and lazy either to know or care about such things. He's the archetypical spoilt aristocrat, whose pride far exceeds his intelligence, and whose position in society (younger son of a younger son) is much lowlier than he thinks it should be.

True, he doesn't have "lazy" in his name for nothing. Besides, the Others are safely behind the Wall long away from Oldtown.

[Jon of the Dead]

I think Leo is far too thick and lazy either to know or care about such things. He's the archetypical spoilt aristocrat, whose pride far exceeds his intelligence, and whose position in society (younger son of a younger son) is much lowlier than he thinks it should be.

I disagree. The fact that he hangs out with Marwyn looking into glass candles and talks about rumors about dragons and darker things sets him way apart from the archetypical aristocrat. The archetypical aristocrat doesn't care, and much less believes in that sort of thing, while Leo seems legitimately interested. He's way too proud and arrogant, but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the supernatural, especially if he has witnessed it first hand

While that is the way it is certainly presented, I think his use of all that cryptic lingo, and him being in Marwyn's inner circle does warrant a second glance. Martin has put a Tyrell and a Martell bastard together in Oldtown, this simply is not a coincidence.

Exactly. Martin could have chosen someone from other house to be there. There's a reason why there's a Tyrell and a Sandsnake in there together

For all we know Leo and Loras haven't even met.

Yeah, but they are related and they are supposed to have common interests. If you hear that your cousin is going to a place of which you heard a very interesting rumor, why not at least tell him about it to see if he can look into it?

The Others are called "white shadows" while Leo says "darker things". Old powers could refer to the glass candles burning, and magic having been amplified since dragons have come back into the world. Darker things could have meant anything like kinds of dark magic that are woken like the warlocks.

There is a difference regarding Loras, shadows killed Renly when he was close by while none of the Others killed anyone he loved beyond the Wall. He has proof of the shadow magic while none for the Others.

True, he doesn't have "lazy" in his name for nothing. Besides, the Others are safely behind the Wall long away from Oldtown.

Leo says "Shadows stir". Obviously it could refer to other things, but I don't see why it referring to the Others is this huge leap you seem to think it is.

He has proof of the Others because his cousin with intel from within the Citadel is telling him. Besides, it's not like Loras has to go to the Wall to fight the Others; he could easily assign someone the task of mining and shipping the obsidian to the Reach, it's not like going to the moon in terms of difficulty

[Fire Eater]

Leo says "Shadows stir". Obviously it could refer to other things, but I don't see why it referring to the Others is this huge leap you seem to think it is.

He has proof of the Others because his cousin with intel from within the Citadel is telling him. Besides, it's not like Loras has to go to the Wall to fight the Others; he could easily assign someone the task of mining and shipping the obsidian to the Reach, it's not like going to the moon in terms of difficulty

Shadows could also be related to fire-related magic such as with Mel's shadowbabies. Shadows are used to refer to many things throughout the series.

Counting what one received in a letter from someone who heard it from another guy doesn't count as proof, in any court of law. Why would he ship the obsidian to the reach when the Others are behind the Wall, far away from the Reach? Wouldn't it make more sense to send it to the Wall? Loras would no doubt be asked why he is mining the dragonglass on DG, and I doubt the answer he would give would be accepted. Besides, the LC of the NW, Jon, is seen as allying with Stannis, so I doubt the Lannisters would let him send dragonglass, if he tries to do it in secret, he could be accused of treason.

[Jon of the Dead]

Shadows could also be related to fire-related magic such as with Mel's shadowbabies. Shadows are used to refer to many things throughout the series.

Counting what one received in a letter from someone who heard it from another guy doesn't count as proof, in any court of law. Why would he ship the obsidian to the reach when the Others are behind the Wall, far away from the Reach? Wouldn't it make more sense to send it to the Wall? Loras would no doubt be asked why he is mining the dragonglass on DG, and I doubt the answer he would give would be accepted. Besides, the LC of the NW, Jon, is seen as allying with Stannis, so I doubt the Lannisters would let him send dragonglass, if he tries to do it in secret, he could be accused of treason.

I'm not saying it counts as definite proof, but we can't disregard Loras' and Leo's connection either. Because even if they haven't spoken (that we know of) the connection is there as they're family. And the Tyrells are all about self-preservation, that's why it makes sense to send it to the Reach, so they could be safe if the Others make it below the Neck.

[Fire Eater]

I'm not saying it counts as definite proof, but we can't disregard Loras' and Leo's connection either. Because even if they haven't spoken (that we know of) the connection is there as they're family. And the Tyrells are all about self-preservation, that's why it makes sense to send it to the Reach, so they could be safe if the Others make it below the Neck.

I don't think that they believe the Wall will fall, and if they blieved the Others were attacking would send the obsidian to the Wall so the Others don't have to come south.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

I wouldn't be surprised if the queen of thorns had Leo on instructions to keep her posted about important stuff.

Exactly what I thought. QoT, being as shrewd as she is, would want to have her own roses planted in different places to be her ears. The more you know, the better!

Interesting theory, too.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Marwyn seems to believe in things the other maesters don't want to believe in. This includes the Others. Marwyn seems to have deeper knowledge about this, and Alleras and Lazy Leo seem to be close to him. I wouldn't be surprised if Leo knows about the Others and the Long Night.

But I'm not so sure about Loras. Loras is a hot-head, and he doesn't seem to be believing in magic. Also, I'm not sure about how much Leo knows from all that Sam told Marwyn and Alleras. Leo was guarding the door, but he did not follow anyone inside.

The Queen of Thornes wouldn't have that much influence on Leo I think. She is his aunt by marriage. I have no clue about where Leo's father lived, but Olenna might not have had as much influence about the son of her brother in law. I think she would have been more focussed on her own son and her grandchildren, who would grow up to have more influence anyway. Leo is the son of a third son, he has nothing to inherit. There is a reason, Leo went to the Citadel. Though if one of the Tyrells might ever find him important again, I'm sure they'll know how to use someone in his position.

[Lord of the Twins]

Marwyn seems to believe in things the other maesters don't want to believe in. This includes the Others. Marwyn seems to have deeper knowledge about this, and Alleras and Lazy Leo seem to be close to him. I wouldn't be surprised if Leo knows about the Others and the Long Night.

But I'm not so sure about Loras. Loras is a hot-head, and he doesn't seem to be believing in magic. Also, I'm not sure about how much Leo knows from all that Sam told Marwyn and Alleras. Leo was guarding the door, but he did not follow anyone inside.

The Queen of Thornes wouldn't have that much influence on Leo I think. She is his aunt by marriage. I have no clue about where Leo's father lived, but Olenna might not have had as much influence about the son of her brother in law. I think she would have been more focussed on her own son and her grandchildren, who would grow up to have more influence anyway. Leo is the son of a third son, he has nothing to inherit. There is a reason, Leo went to the Citadel. Though if one of the Tyrells might ever find him important again, I'm sure they'll know how to use someone in his position.

Leo's father and Luthor Tyrell's brother is the captain of the guard in Oldtown. At the same time, however, Leo Tyrell is Mace Tyrell's first cousin. We have already seen good relationships between first cousins in the books (Tywin and Joanna, Stafford working for the Lannister cause, Baratheon and Estermont). We also have seen bad ones as well that I need to iron out, heh (Freys). I could trade some of my sons for yours, heh, and I'd still come out with at least 15.

It is likely that Mace and Leo at least have met, given that their fathers are brothers. Since Leo is much closer to Loras's age than Mace's, it is more likely that he would have spent more time interacting with Loras than Mace at any such meetings. While they are unlikely to be very close to each other, it seems to be likely that there would be a sufficient connection there.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Leo's father and Luthor Tyrell's brother is the captain of the guard in Oldtown. At the same time, however, Leo Tyrell is Mace Tyrell's first cousin. We have already seen good relationships between first cousins in the books (Tywin and Joanna, Stafford working for the Lannister cause, Baratheon and Estermont). We also have seen bad ones as well that I need to iron out, heh (Freys). I could trade some of my sons for yours, heh, and I'd still come out with at least 15.

It is likely that Mace and Leo at least have met, given that their fathers are brothers. Since Leo is much closer to Loras's age than Mace's, it is more likely that he would have spent more time interacting with Loras than Mace at any such meetings. While they are unlikely to be very close to each other, it seems to be likely that there would be a sufficient connection there.

Oh, I never tried to say Mace and Leo wouldn't know each other. Of course they've met, they are family after all. Thought the situation with Stafford isn't completely comparable with Leo and Mace (Stafford was not only Tywin's cousin, but also his brother in law, which would make the bond between them stronger, if Tywin cared about such at all).

Yes, Leo seems to be more close in age to Loras than to Mace. But I do believe Leo grew up in Oldtown (his father lives there after all), while Loras grew up in Highgarden/Storms End/KL. I'm not sure how much interaction there was between these two.

Since we have no POV's of the Tyrells, it's hard to say which game they are playing exactly. Something is definitly up, but if Leo told Loras secrets from Marwyn... I'm not completely convinced about that.