Why there never was a Queen in the North?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

GRRM has to consider the odds if it wants to be remotely plausible. 8000 years or even 2000 years without a single case where the ruling lord had only daughters is so unlikely that it's virtually impossible.

And yet it happened, because GRRM said so. Thanks to arya_nym: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Various_questions_concerning_Tywin_Oberyn_Gregor_the_North_and_Sansa/

That's how the system is now, but who knows how it was 500 years ago or 1500 years ago? Maybe they had their own version of the Salic law but it was scrapped after the Targs came.

Maybe, but given we only have Robb and Cats discussion on inheritance to work from, and with absolutely no evidence to support Salic law or anything other than the male-preference cognatic primogeniture, one has to assume the laws have been the same for a very long time. Plus the SSM confirms only male ruling Starks.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

North follows Andal law now. And that´s just 3 centuries. Whereas we see Iron Islands reject Andal law - no woman may sit Seastone Chair regardless of greenlands laws, or so Aeron asserts. Asha does have support at Kingsmoot, but so does Victarion.

We hear what happened with Brandon the Daughterless. His daughter´s bastard became the ruler at Winterfell, and fought battles - as the ruler in his own right. When he came home to report his parricide, his mother received him as his mother - not as Winter Queen or Lady of Winterfell.

We hear of women disinherited in spite of Andal law in South as well. Wyman Webber made a will to disinherit his only daughter in favour of his male cousin (unless she marries). His will is taken seriously - Rohanne cannot simply dismiss it as illegal interference with her automatic right.

Over the 8 millennia, a woman must have been the best Andal law heir to Winterfell many times (I think 15th century Firenze had statistics - 60 % couples had one or more sons, 20 % daughters only, 20 % childless). Thus the law of Winterfell must have been different, and the woman was disinherited in favour of some man each time. We do not know the exact details - at least sometimes in favour of her own soon in her lifetime, sometimes perhaps an uncle or cousin or bastard brother. If Winterfell kept cousins around then there would usually have been cousins... and the women married to other Northern families could often have provided sons and grandsons to take over Winterfell.

This could explain it.. Change of succession rules after the Andal invasion, and Wills to disinherit women in favor of men (cousins brothers etc.)..

[Martin21114]

I think you'll get your answer in the next Dunk & Egg book, the ones about the she-wolves of winterfell. Apparently Dunk & Egg arrive and their are no male heirs, only women.

[TheLostStark]

Their are deeper crypts that no POV has been to. Its likely they have queens down there.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I think you'll get your answer in the next Dunk & Egg book, the ones about the she-wolves of winterfell. Apparently Dunk & Egg arrive and their are no male heirs, only women.

We don´t know if the She-wolves are daughters or wives. They could be the widows of Stark heirs/lord.. And one of them was pregnant when these Lords/heirs died fighting the iron born..

So, she could rule as regent... but not inheriting WF in her own right..

[David Selig]

It's a hell of a lot more likely that succession laws were changed at some point than a streak for 3-4 thousand years of lords with sons.

The other option is that when a woman was supposed to inherit, the law was ignored and the female heir by law was overtaken by a male relative through the use of force.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That's not how it comes across when Robb and Cat discuss it. Girls can definitely inherit, but males come first.

Yes, we are, because that's what the evidence we have dictates. If you can find evidence to support otherwise I'd be happy to see it.

I had forgot about that but it could be like that: daughter inherits, daughter rules, married and have a son, son inherits the name and the Throne.

[Gurkhal]

The other option is that when a woman was supposed to inherit, the law was ignored and the female heir by law was overtaken by a male relative through the use of force.

Sounds like the most likely scenario to me.

Also considering that the Northmen have not changed anything else as their faith, culture, values etc. why would the Northmen for some reason take on Andal Law after submitting to the Targaryens rather than having a similar law already in place?

[CosimaistheHottest]

The other option is that when a woman was supposed to inherit, the law was ignored and the female heir by law was overtaken by a male relative through the use of force.

Definitely. The "superior" Northern race super-sexiest.

It must have happened alot too when you think about it.

[Jaak]

And yet it happened, because GRRM said so. Thanks to arya_nym: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Various_questions_concerning_Tywin_Oberyn_Gregor_the_North_and_Sansa/

Maybe, but given we only have Robb and Cats discussion on inheritance to work from, and with absolutely no evidence to support Salic law or anything other than the male-preference cognatic primogeniture, one has to assume the laws have been the same for a very long time. Plus the SSM confirms only male ruling Starks.

Catelyn is a foreigner (a southerner). Robb is 15.

Just because they do not remember or do not care to recall the tradition against Winter Queens does not mean that Rickard would not have recalled it and insisted on bypassing Lyanna.

[Iona]

I had forgot about that but it could be like that: daughter inherits, daughter rules, married and have a son, son inherits the name and the Throne.

This is what I was thinking when I read the thread. In the absence of a male heir, a woman could "rule" over Winterfell/North until she gives birth to the next king, but withouth the title of a Queen.

Heck, do we ever hear of any queens in the North, consorts or otherwise? Could very well be that no such notion ever existed. Men were Kings and women... well, they were wifes and mothers of kings, but that was it.

ETA: my thoughts are flying too fast tonight, never mind my edits.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Catelyn is a foreigner (a southerner). Robb is 15.

Just because they do not remember or do not care to recall the tradition against Winter Queens does not mean that Rickard would not have recalled it and insisted on bypassing Lyanna.

Both are educated in the ways of the Old Men and the Kings of Winter. Just because you believe there was a tradition against Queens in the North, doesn't mean they didn't have knowledge on the history of succession laws of their own House.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Both are educated in the ways of the Old Men and the Kings of Winter. Just because you believe there was a tradition against Queens in the North, doesn't mean they didn't have knowledge on the history of succession laws of their own House.

Whe Cat was educated in the ways of the KoW?

[The Sleeper]

Pretty much everything Martin says is subjecto to limited knowledge of the past, often including things he says in interviews, so he may well refer as there is no queen in the north is remembered or known to have existed. Othrewise, even with all the bias in the world and even laws against it one wuld have slipped by, in eight or four or even two thousand years of history.

In any case, I think it is pretty clear that in the present Sansa and Arya can and would inherit.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That's not how it comes across when Robb and Cat discuss it. Girls can definitely inherit, but males come first.

Cat is an Andal, and the North has not had a Kin for 300 years. It is possible that she is not aware of the history of the North or just presumes that a new era of Kings would be more inkeeping with the Andal tradition than the Northern one.

[Whitering]

A lot of the incredulity of Westeros stems from the 8 to 10 thousand years of history, an unbroken line of a family in an area that was regular battered with cold that would kill men in minutes if caught outside is a little silly yes. But at this point there men of Stark blood in every family, they just plop themselves in Winterfell and call themselves Stark and continue on is by far the most likely fanwank theory.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Whe Cat was educated in the ways of the KoW?

Probably when she married a Stark and took his heir to Winterfell to live as the Lady of Winterfell. Or are you actually disputing Cats knowledge of the Kings of Winter? Because in that case I suggest you retead her chapters because she has at the very least rudimentary understanding exceeding that of a typical southron.

Cat is an Andal, and the North has not had a Kin for 300 years. It is possible that she is not aware of the history of the North or just presumes that a new era of Kings would be more inkeeping with the Andal tradition than the Northern one.

So then perhaps you should back up this opinion with evidence that Cat is clueless of the Norths history or that the North has changed its succession laws at any point in its 8000+ year history. Because while I'm basing what I say off of the text, I've seen many unsupported claims of supposed changed laws this thread. Quite simply we've got a conversation from which we can deduce the laws of succession, and nothing to suggest those laws have changed at any point in history.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So then perhaps you should back up this opinion with evidence that Cat is clueless of the Norths history or that the North has changed its succession laws at any point in its 8000+ year history. Because while I'm basing what I say off of the text, I've seen many unsupported claims of supposed changed laws this thread. Quite simply we've got a conversation from which we can deduce the laws of succession, and nothing to suggest those laws have changed at any point in history.

Where did I state that she was clueless? And in 8,000 years of history do you really think there has been no slight changes in customs or even that the same rule applies from generation to generation whomever the major players are?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Probably when she married a Stark and took his heir to Winterfell to live as the Lady of Winterfell. Or are you actually disputing Cats knowledge of the Kings of Winter? Because in that case I suggest you retead her chapters because she has at the very least rudimentary understanding exceeding that of a typical southron.

I think that there is a fundamental difference between understanding and be educated in something.

[Jaak]

Compare Iron Islands. Balon is certainly educated and a follower of Old Way - he raises 2 rebellions in a very stupid way each to restore Old Way. Yet he thinks he is going to get away with making Asha Queen - in preference to her uncles, but also in preference to her brother, whom he dismisses as lost and spoiled in greenlands. And he is not alone in so thinking - many support Asha. Yet Aeron asserts that no woman may sit the throne, not even Asha, and many support him as well.

Greyjoys are new elected, but Hoares ruled for 4000 years. There must have been many occasions in Hoare history that a king had daughter but no sons.

But even if the histories of Iron Islands are clear as to what actually was done each time Hoare king lacked sons, this does not mean the Ironmen are agreed what the law now is, or should be.