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Whats up with the Jorah dislike?


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#1 Tyrion1991

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 07:55 PM

Genuinely never got this one. Hes viewed very positively in Danys POV for about three books. Even when he is exiled she is clear that hes "my strong right hand who has never failed me". You then have Tyrions POV where he is trying to make amends in anyway he can and is willing to walk back into the Battle of Meereen. He gets beaten and humiliated for his efforts. I don't think GRRM is going for the readers wanting this character to suffer in the same way as the Mountain. Yes, Tyrion does remark "you have crimes to pay for Ser Jorah", but this is rich coming from a man who murdered his father and strangled a woman to death because she lied to him; so its more reflective on Tyrion than Jorah. I agree that GRRM does try to darken the character with thuggish behavior and occasionally giving off a slightly creepy vibe. But this almost always countered by him usually acting chivalrously and ambiguity from Dany. For instance in book 2 she "shivers" after Jorah remarks (only on her prompting) that she looked as good as Lynesse, however she then goes on to imagine what it would be like having sex with him and feels sad that she can't love him better than she can. So she does consider having sex with him. There are lots of examples of male characters molesting female characters and I don't think Jorah is put in the same category by GRRM.  

 

Plus, there seems to be an assumption that Jorah is a sarcastic subversion of a trope that we are meant to find funny. TBH, I don't really see that and I would sincerely ask what would make you think GRRM is doing that?

 

Also, I'd just like to add. The zealously over protective thing that Dany interprets to be him wanting to make her rely on him. I think people are too quick to accept Danys POV on this. Shes mad at him in that scene because as she said earlier "he treats me as a child" and also still has the kiss scene in the back of her mind. Warning her that Daario, a sellsword who just betrayed his companions, might spill the beans to the Yunkish; isn't exactly unreasonable. Note that Jorah calling the age and experience card is what got her angry. Whats really happening is the tension between an over-protective but sincere mentor and a younger character who is gaining power and confidence. A very good parrallell would be from Wheel of Time where Rand al Thor mistrusts Moiraines motives and advice purely because he feels controlled by her and that shes only doing what she wants. In other words, what happens between Dany/Jorah is very much the sort of conflict you would expect between those two types of characters. So I don't think theres that much call to judge Jorah over this incident. 


Edited by Tyrion1991, 21 November 2013 - 08:05 PM.


#2 Ser Humfrey

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:03 PM

I'm with you I always liked jorah I never got the creepy vibe from him. I saw how "grey" he was though.

#3 Florina Laufeyson

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:13 PM

Ser Fedora Knight.



#4 Mark Antony

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:14 PM

He's a creepy slaver



#5 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:15 PM

He's creepy but I think he is an important character to Dany, if he was with her she would have been in westeros by now.



#6 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:15 PM

He's a creepy slaver

 

He literally suggested to Drogo to sells children to brothels in Mereen(IIRC) because they were fetching higher prices.



#7 Acolyte of Radmure

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

 

He literally suggested to Drogo to sells children to brothels in Mereen(IIRC) because they were fetching higher prices.

If you're going to enslave children, you may as well get a better price. 



#8 Mark Antony

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

 

He literally suggested to Drogo to sells children to brothels in Mereen(IIRC) because they were fetching higher prices.

:lol: what a prick, I cheered when he got sold into slavery. 


Edited by Mark Antony, 21 November 2013 - 08:19 PM.


#9 Tyrion1991

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:20 PM

He's a creepy slaver

 

 

He sold people because he was genuinely in love and does accept that he is ashamed of that. That does count for something. He is punished for the slavery thing when he is actually enslaved and branded. I think he has paid his dues, never mind helping the great liberator and Myhsa herself.

 

Daenerys does not think him wanting her is creepy. She always thinks fondly on this during ACOK and is sad that she could not love him more. That is not the usual way women think about stalkers. Also, the kiss scene. Dany is the one who invited him into her room, without getting changed first when she had all the time in the world, sent her handmaidens away and then throws the blankets off herself. Its not as if he sneaked into her room to peak at her being naked. 

 

The creepy thing is really being exaggerated.


Edited by Tyrion1991, 21 November 2013 - 08:22 PM.


#10 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:20 PM

:lol: what a prick, I cheered when he got sold into slavery. 

I cried  :crying:



#11 Mark Antony

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:21 PM

 

 

He sold people because he was genuinely in love and does accept that he is ashamed of that. That does count for something. He is punished for the slavery thing when he is actually enslaved and branded. I think he has paid his dues, never mind helping the great liberator and Myhsa herself.

 

Daenerys does not think him wanting her is creepy. She always thinks fondly on this during ACOK and is sad that she could not love him more. That is not the usual way women think about stalkers. Also, the kiss scene. Dany is the one who invited him into her room, without getting changed first when she had all the time in the world, sent her handmaidens away and then throws the blankets off herself. Its not as if he sneaked into her room.

Honestly I thought it was a little creepy that he was with a whore in Volantis who looked exactly like Daenerys. 



#12 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:23 PM

I found it hilarious when he was broken.

 

Was it because he heard Dany was wed?

 

Man, the dude has issues with "love"

 

And yes the prostitute scene in Dance was weird as hell.


Edited by Strongboar_Crakehall, 21 November 2013 - 08:24 PM.


#13 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:24 PM

I found it hilarious when he was broken.

 

Was it because he heard Dany was wed?

 

Man, the dude has issues with "love"

More like lust.



#14 Mark Antony

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:24 PM

I cried  :crying:

sweet sweet karmic justice



#15 LovinRC

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:26 PM

Jorah was disgraced and had to flee his homeland.  He just wants to go home.  He betrayed Dany before he got to know her and now regrets his actions.  Since she found out, he has been trying to get back into her good graces.  That said...Jorah fell in love with her.

 

Barriston is a good balance between Dany and Jorah to tell the truth of her nut job family and give Dany good advice.  I think he will see the good in Jorah because he brings army w/ Tyrion in the end.

 

Tyrion will bring Dany and Jorah back together.  Not sure if it will be good for either one of them but will be fun to read.



#16 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:26 PM

More like lust.

 

I can't imagine Jorah ever being "satisfied" with one woman completely.

 

Like sure Dany is his love now, but what about in 20 years when she's not so young anymore?

 

He'll see some other blonde 14 year old girl and tell her she is the most beautiful woman he ever met yada yada yada



#17 Tyrion1991

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:27 PM

Honestly I thought it was a little creepy that he was with a whore in Volantis who looked exactly like Daenerys. 

 

Yeah, but thats just darkening what is otherwise something straight out of a high fantasy romance story as regards his motivation. Looking out to sea on the prow of a ship and staring up at Meereen looking for her. You couldn't do things like that without something to darken it ever so slightly. A bit like Gawyn being besotted with Egwene from Wheel of Time. 

 

Plus, I remarked about this in another thread. In Quentyns POV one of his companions says that he should get a whore and he refuses because he thinks Dany wouldn't like that. His friend replies that she would because women like a man who knows what he is about in the bedroom. That possibly relates to that scene with Jorah specifically and in AGOT she didn't seem bothered that he was going to get whores in the marketplace; indeed she thought he was being touchy about it when he could have been frank.



#18 Tyrion1991

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:30 PM

More like lust.

 

If it was then Tyrion would have flat out accused him of that rather than called him "a fool in love" and Dany herself also does not question that he loved her as is shown in her vision in ADWD at the end. Tyrion would not stand for that nonsense and not make a joke about it. Whilst Dany spent long enough with the Dothraki to know what lust is. I think we genuinely are meant to accept the characters motivation here. It is not lust and it is what it is. 

 

I must be honest, I was genuinely expecting GRRM to make that insinuation that Jorah was just lusting after her but five books in and he still hasn't done it in either POV as far as I can see.


Edited by Tyrion1991, 21 November 2013 - 08:32 PM.


#19 David Selig

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:30 PM

He keeps getting totally obsessed with 13-14 year old girls. That's pathetic and quite creepy.



#20 Roland Deschain of Gilead

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

The odd obsessive unrequited love is, well, odd. Banging the Dany look alike was a little weird too, but tbh not that weird as we know he loves her, and if there's a whore to go for, it's the one who reminds you of, what you see as, the most beautiful women in the world.

I dont dislike him I just dont care, really. He just seems like he was added In solely to develop Dany and fulfils whichever role Dany needs to further her character (and being the bear with the notreallyamaiden fair.) With his only actual personality being that he loves her. Eh, there are many more interesting characters.