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  2. What makes you think it's likely they occupied the same area? What we're told of the Great Empire of the Dawn is: “…all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth”. The Valyrian Freehold started off in Valyria, and extended east to take in much of the former Ghiscari Empire, as far as Slaver's Bay. There's no overlap at all between those two territories. Also, I'm not sure why you italicized "southern" when quoting me saying "southern Essos". Both the Empire and the Freehold managed to expand all the way to the Shivering Sea. Look at how tenuous most of these connections are. The Royces and many other houses date to the Dawn Age. None of them are connected to the Great Empire of the Dawn. The Daynes have an apparent ethnic resemblance to Valyrians, and the Great Empire is a Yi Tish legend about the ancestors of Yi Ti, and the Yi Tish look nothing like Valyrians, but it's not quite impossible that the Great Empire did look like Valyrians because we know so little about them, so therefore it must be true just so there can be a connection. "Sword of the Morning is the same name as a major constellation" connects to "founded Church of Starry Wisdom" because… why? House Peake, the Dothraki, the Andals, the town of Starfish Harbor, medieval astrologers, and Carl Sagan are all interested in stars, and none of them are connected to a death cult devoted to Nyarlathotep that GRRM borrowed from Lovecraft just because it has "Starry" in the name, any more than they're connected to each other. Daynes are close friends of the Targaryens. Because who wouldn't be close friends with anyone who shared an ancestor with you 10000 years ago that you didn't know about. And all those other houses that are closer friends of the Targaryens and aren't related to them… ignore the man behind the curtain. Seriously, this borders on the kind of apophenia you see in schizophrenics and temporal-lobe epileptics. But they don't have an outsized backstory. We actually hear a lot less about House Dayne than about many, many other houses in the story. Using the same example again, look at how much is written about the Royces compared to the Daynes. OK, now I understand the problem. Lots and lots of things that are only mentioned in WoIaF exist and don't tie into the rest of the series. Do you think the boneless men, the N'Ghai, Ulthos, the old God-Kings of Ib, the battles between the Sarnori princes, or the foundations of the three Hyrkoon mountain fortresses are going to tie into the rest of the series? GRRM had a very sketchy design for his world when he started the series. As he went along, he came to enjoy the world building much more than he'd originally expected to. He started filling in all kinds of other stuff. What used to be just "Here be monsters", he started putting names on. Then he and Jonathan Roberts created Lands of Ice and Fire: And he had fun doing that, and people liked it. So he had Ran and Linda write The World of Ice and Fire, which, among many other things, fleshed out some of those names and gave some backstory. The vast majority of that backstory is just flavor text to make the world-building more interesting and lifelike. The idea that every sentence in WoIaF is part to some puzzle we're supposed to figure out that's relevant to the plot and themes of ASoIaF if you only find the secret hidden connections is just ridiculous. The City of the Winged Men is there just to show us "here there be winged men". And the Great Empire of the Dawn is just there to be the kind of legend that a country like Yi Ti would have about its past, like medieval Chinese legends of Xia China controlling most of Asia, but with a dark Clark Ashton-Smith twist on it. Of course the Great Empire have a Long Night myth, because it's an important part of the story that every culture in Planetos has a Long Night myth, and they all have variations on it. And beyond that, we know almost nothing about the Great Empire. They get a few paragraphs in the section on Yi Ti, and one brief mention somewhere else in the book. We get more on the Jogos Nhai than on them. Yes, but it's even more important to look at the themes that are actually in the books, rather than to take some other themes that you think are neat and try to find a way to twist the books to fit. Which, once again, is why I started this thread. I wanted to know if there was any actual textual support for the mystery people are trying to solve, because if there is, it might be worth looking into those solutions and the connections they draw, but if there isn't, it's pointless.
  3. Is there such a thing as love? If there is, why so much cost? What's the point? Is love something to be hidden away, a mark of shame, something that we should not feel? Do GRRM and D&D hate love?
  4. The fact that 95% of the discussions I see now are about shipping and arguments about ships gives further prove of how downhill the writing on this show has gotten and how little substance the show has. yuck.
  5. Yeah, that's nonsense and I'm not explaining myself agin. Explain this. They are credited as the creators of the show, executive producers and have writing credits for the bulk of the episodes, including the ones featuring stuff the GRRM hasn't published yet. What have I given them undue credit for? Also, there are plenty of other people who have producing and writing credits for this series. there's also a pile of directors who have worked on this. Do they deserve bile form the amateur critic's online community or does it all get heaped on D&D? Almost every single adapted work ever made was based in source material that had commercial and critical acclaim. It never gets to the stage of being adapted if it hasn't. Even with ample budgets and good people working on them, often as not, they turn out to be mediocre or just garbage. You want examples?
  6. I think a lot of it's wishful thinking Stannis' death along with Jon's death is the perfect low point for the Northern arc before the turnaround and things start going in the right direction. The twist with the pink letter is very GRRM.
  7. On the other hand, Tyrek Lannister was married to Ermesande Hayford, who was an infant. So age is no barrier. And then Ermesande possibly became the first bride to be widowed before she was weaned. The point is, Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey was a stupid idea and Ned was stupid to not see how much of a (insert four-letter expletive) Joffrey was. No father should want what Sansa went through.
  8. Well, she's not that conflicted in the book. Just look at her thoughts about Ned Stark, a man who tried to stop the attempt on her life and protested the murders of her niece and nephew Rhaenys and Aegon.
  9. If the Starks were first men, why a crown of bronze and iron? Did the first men even have iron? Could the crown have originally been a bronze circlet and the iron added later?
  10. This song is just giving me all kinds of ASOIAF feels. Not one thing in particular, but it's so beautiful and the lyrics capture some of the central themes. The existential crisis and the human heart at war with itself. Nature, nurture heaven and home Sum of all, and by them, driven To conquer every mountain shown But I've never crossed the river Braved the forests, braved the stone Braved the icy winds and fire Braved and beat them on my own Yet I'm helpless by the river Angel, angel, what have I done? I've faced the quakes, the wind, the fire I've conquered country, crown, and throne Why can't I cross this river? Angel, angel, what have I done? I've faced the quakes, the wind, the fire I've conquered country, crown, and throne Why can't I cross this river? Pay no mind to the battles you've won It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle Open your heart and hands, my son Or you'll never make it over the river It'll take a lot more than words and guns A whole lot more than riches and muscle The hands of the many must join as one And together we'll cross the river It'll take a lot more than words and guns A whole lot more than riches and muscle The hands of the many must join as one And together we'll cross the river (Nature, nurture heaven and home) It'll take a lot more than words and guns (Sum of all, and by them, driven) A whole lot more than riches and muscle (To conquer every mountain shown) The hands of the many must join as one And together we'll cross the river (Braved the forests, braved the stone) It'll take a lot more than words and guns (Braved the icy winds and fire) A whole lot more than riches and muscle (Braved and beat them on my own) The hands of the many must join as one And together we'll cross the river And together we'll cross the river And together we'll cross the river Nature, nurture heaven and home And together we'll cross the river And together we'll cross the river Nature, nurture heaven and home And together we'll cross the river And together we'll cross the river
  11. Tywin's treatment of Tysha, Mad King killing the Starks, Gregor killing and raping Elia and her kids, Ramsay's hunts with his bitches, Ramsay reeking Theon, and anything and everything that happens on Euron's ship the Silence.
  12. When did that happen? Canon quotes, not your own interpretation? What will become of House Stark? No heirs, no legacy, no future. Just wondering what's your theory.
  13. Tough call on dropping out of OITNB. I think S3 & S4 are both great, especially S4. S5 though, Have you seen the new Punisher trailer with Metallica's "One"? If not, go watch it now on youtube. That trailer alone is better than the entirety of S1 of Iron Fist and 1/3 of The Defenders. Truth and not alternative facts! Also, you are in for a real treat with both Legion S1 and R&M S3. Agreed about OITNB S4. I think they stretched the riot premise waaay too long. That should've been a half season arc at most. I really was done with the season around episode 5 or 6, but I managed to force my way through the rest of S5 over the course of a week or so. There were a few really great character moments though...
  14. So... is there such a thing as love? If there is, why so much cost? What's the point? Is love something to be hidden away, a mark of shame, something that we should not feel? Do GRRM and D&D hate love?
  15. Ghost is like the least important absence in the whole show. Only one Stark can warg and it's not Jon, so Ghost is just a sidekick that sometimes helps Jon. He's not a plot device like the dragons.
  16. See, that was waaaaay better. Though I think they did miss an easy joke. They should've have Mr. Garrison's tweets being posted at really irregular times.
  17. Good to know I'm not as far behind as I thought. Cheers!
  18. Browning annoyed the hell outta me at first, but she really grew on me. Her and Mad Sweeney managed to steal the show from Ian McShane for me--and that ain't no easy feat! I thought King Arthur was ambitious and it went for something a little different with its use of montages, but ultimately the cons outweighed the pros. Very skippable unless you're a die-hard genre fan. I wanted to see this in the theater, but it got booted out almost immediately here, so I'm very glad to hear this! I noticed it was just added to AZN Prime, so I'll be checking it out soon.
  19. Is your info about 15 months from this site (reference to Trinity Royal ship)? They were comparing Trinity Royal ship to Euron's flagship Silence. Others ships in his fleet are smaller. All their further calculations are made for making fleet that consists of 1,000 Silences. "How many people would be needed to build this type of ship? The building team for a 500-ton ship, according to Friel, would be between 30 and 50 shipwrights or more. "However, other craftsmen and workers would also be involved, such as blacksmiths to make nails and other ironwork, caulkers to seal the gaps between planks, sailmakers, labourers and even people employed to pick up small bits of leftover timber littering the building site," he said. "The total size of the project team would probably be 50+, though not all would be working at the same time. "Building a fleet of 1,000 vessels in a short time would require tens of thousands of workers." " Euron has tens of thousands of workers, he has at least 100,000. 100,000 workers. Because in different sources Iron Islands' population is between 100,000-700,000-1,500,000 people. He has 15,000 sailors in Iron Fleet, + 25,000 of foot soldiers. If male population old and young enought to fight is 40,000, then total population can't be lesser than 100,000+. I'm not saying that ALL of them will need to work non stop for SIX MONTHS. That's NOT what I wrote. Also according to that link, writer and historian Dr Ian Friel (he recently wrote a book all about the medieval fleet) said that it will take only 750,000 trees to build Euron's fleet. And according to information provided in that article, there's between 250 to 500 trees per hectare. My previous estimate was 53 trees per acre. 1 Hectar is 2.47 acres. Wich means that there's between 100 to 200 trees per acre. And that's 2-4 times bigger than my estimates. So in that forest near Iron Islands there are 4-8 billion trees. But to build 1,000 ship fleet only 750,000 is needed. Also I wrote that only 1/3 of population are females, not half. Additionally out of those 1/3 not everyone will be making sails. What I wrote is that if population of Iron Islands is 100,000 people then out of them 3,000 females will be making sails for 2 months. And that in span of 60 days each one out of those 3,000 will need to make only 1 sail. In case if population is 1,500.000, then there will be 50,000 females working for 2 months, and in span of 60 days they will make 50,000 sails <- that's too much, because nearly all ships in Iron Fleet has only one mast. So 3,000 sails will be enought for 1,000 ships. And while those 3,000 females will be making sails, other 97,000 (or 1,497,000) will be working on other parts. Also I wrote that even if only 15,000 people will be working as shipwrights, they will be able to build 1,000 ships in 3-6 months. Yes, even in 3 months, though for that they will have to work 16 hours per day <- it's hard, but possible. For example Romans worked 7 days per week, 10 hours per day during winter, and 14 hours per day during summer. "In the late 18th century, when companies started to maximize the output of their factories, getting to running them 24/7 was key. Now of course, to make things more efficient, people had to work more. In fact, 10-16 hour days were the norm." <- that info is from here Enslaved Africans worked even longer, "It was a life of endless labour. They worked up to 18 hours a day, sometimes longer at busy periods such as harvest. There were no weekends or rest days." <- "In the South, the 15-16 hours per days; 6 days per week schedule was on a continuos loop as there was no rest season." <- Ironborn were highly motivated to build this fleet. Because they were in stagnation for too long, after failure of Balon's rebellion. Just look at how much they were cheering after Euron's proclamation about 1,000 ships. They were 100% dedicated to this mission. In this case crew of 15 men will have to build 1 ship in span of 90 days. That's 21,600 men/hours to build one ship (15 men * 90 days * 16 hours per day = 21,600). Also Euron had enough people to make them work in rotation. 30,000 people devided into two squads, each 15,000 men. One squad is working for 16 hours, from 6 am to 10 pm, then next day they are replaced by second squad. Thus between shifts those 30,000 men can rest for 32 hours. For healthy adult male to work for 16 hours, and then rest for 32 is absolutely manageable task. Or if they will have six months of time, then they can work 8 hours per day, without using rotation, that's the same 21,600 men/hours required to build one ship. In this case they won't even need 30,000 people to accomplish this task, 15,000 will be enought. To build one ship on this schedule, crew of 15 men will work less hours per day, but for 6 months instead of 3 (15 men * 180 days * 8 hours per day = 21,600). And why do I think that 21,600 men/hours of time, that ironborn can dedicate to creating Iron Fleet, is enough to build one basic ship from Iron Fleet: info from this link "The Iron Fleet is the largest grouping of longships from the Iron Islands. The ships, while smaller than the war dromonds of the mainland, are three times the size of a standard longship of the Isles." "The Greek scholar Christos Makrypoulias suggests an arrangement of 25 oarsmen beneath and 35 on the deck on either side for a dromon of 120 rowers. The overall length of these ships was probably about 32 meters." "the majority of the ironborn naval forces, which are estimated to number well over 500 longships. However, most of these ships only dip 20 oars." "Iron Fleet consists of around a hundred warships dipping 100 oars or more." So what do we have? - 1. standart ship of Iron Fleet is smaller than dromon, 2. dromon is 32 meters long and has up to 120 oars, 3. standart ship of Iron Fleet is three times the size of a standard longship of the Isles, 4. standard longship of the Isles dip 20 oars, 5. Iron Fleet warships dip 100 oars, or 100+ oars (though according to 3. it should have about 60 oars, and not 100+, because three times bigger than ship with 20 oars should be ship with 60 oars not 100+ oars, but Ok let it be 100 oars). If ship with 120 oars is 32 meters long (and that's 105 feet), then ship with 100 oars is appoximately 27 meters or 88 feet long. In this site there's review how much time it takes for one person to build a 39'4" feet or 12 meters long yacht - 9594 men/hours. Also there's detailed timeframe how much time it took to finish certain work. So based on this example if it takes 9594 men/hours to build a 39'4" feet or 12 meters long yacht, then time needed to build a 27 meters or 88 feet long ship is (9594 * 27) : 12 = 21,586.5 men/hours. And the 15 men crew of ironborn working for 3 month, 16 hours per day will work in total 21,600 men/hours. Or the same amount of hours if they will work 8 hours per day for 6 months. In case if they will use 15,000 shipbuilders. And if they will be using rotation and work in shifts, then they will involve 30,000 shipbuilders. 15,000 (or 30,000) of shipwrights + 3,000 females making sails. So 18 or 33 thousands will build ships and make sails, and other 67-82 thousands will be doing other works like painting, weaving ropes, making nails, cuting down trees, preparing boards, transporting supplies, cooking, etc. If that one example with 12 meters long yacht is not enough, then there's also others: "Bandido - 30′ Inboard Deep Vee Runabout. Built by Scott Ure - I have put in around 8,000 man hours into the project over the last 7 years or so, but this is a very rough figure as I did not keep a record." "Bolero - 24′ Deep Vee Runabout. Built by Donato Conserva (Italy) – about 300 hours." "Console Skiff - 15′ 9″ Open Skiff with Center Console. Built by George Yannoulis (Greece) - Building Time: 480 hrs." Also previously I found information that for building 1 medieval ship they needed 2,000 trees. But seems that that ship was bigger than dromon, so they won't need 2 million trees. 750,000 will be enough.
  20. There most certainly is when you think that a lack of romantic love in a female character's ending, no matter how otherwise triumphant and successful that character's ending otherwise is, would be a "letdown," in your words. LOL, of course you do, because you ship it, but "They should get together because I think it would be best" is not an argument. Sure they are. Sansa is cool, clever, confident, and in control, and has successfully rid herself of Ramsay and Littlefinger. Nope. If that were true, Arya and Jon would be dead. Sansa believes in love and loyalty where her family is concerned. Sansa can still smile and joke, as she does with Arya in 7x07. She still has hope and faith. She just reserves it for people who deserve it, like Jon (who cares about Sansa, even if he doesn't always listen to her), Arya (who for all her issues ultimately loves Sansa and will put her first), and Bran (who lost any tact along with his personality but who will help Sansa out as needed). She has the same attitude as the Tyrells, who trusted each other but no one else; there's nothing wrong with that. It's not about "punishment," it's about the character learning valuable lessons that they can apply to their own benefit, even if that involves suffering and having to make hard choices. Arya, Jon and Bran's perspectives and skillsets have all come at terrible cost as well. Sansa is no more being "punished" by having terrible experiences with guys and realizing she can get what she wants without them than Tyrion would be being "punished" by having terrible experiences with women and deciding he's better off focusing on other things. It's about characters learning hard lessons from their experiences and growing as characters as a result. Why? Sansa has come to wish that she could be left to run Winterfell in peace without a man (even a kind, decent, well-meaning man like Jon) mucking things up for her, and Arya never wanted anything to do with romance or sexuality in any event. Forcing your own perspective as to what constitutes "true" happiness or fulfillment onto two characters who don't share it seems like a very limited way of viewing them.
  21. - Yes 100% agreed. Robb has no legacy in the show or at the very least he is not important enough for the show to decide to explore it. But yea from what we see he is effectively the idiot that married the foreign girl because of love and lost the war. But I don't think that negates the broader themes I referenced. - i don't think all the northmen embraced Ramsey. Mostly the Umbers and the Karstarks and they did it for very specific realpolitik reasons. The others stayed neutral or sided with Jon. But I don't think all the northerners have to rally to Jon's side to support the idea that Ned left a powerful legacy or that his legacy was meaninful. Legacy can be meaninful if it just positively impacts a few people because lives have meaning. But in this case his legacy will be outsized because those people he impacted are going to end up saving the world. - Ramsey lost because he fucked over Sansa and she hated him because he was the worst. I don't see why Ramsey had to lose because he was hated by everyone or why the method of how Sansa orchestrated his demise are necessarily important for the theme to play out if that method doesn't by itself negate the theme. Of course, maybe you didn't like the execution or preferred it go down some other way. But that is a different question than is the shows's theme that cynism wins. - I disagree with the idea that the importance of Ned's legacy is impacted because they imply that he died because he played the game poorly or he was an idiot. All men must die. The fact that Ned died or how he died to me is beside the point. He left a legacy because of the way he choose to live his life and the values he represented. Those choices and values are what positively impacts people like Jon. The fact that Jon decides to emulate Ned despite the negative consequences I think is exactly the point. Our lives have meaning and value not because we are good at playing the game of thrones or because we managed to live a long time because we manipulated that person. They have value and meaning because of the way we choose to live our lives, effectively how we live is more important than how long we live. It doesn't matter if Ned died because he did something dumb. What matters is that while he was alive he lived with honor, built a loving family, protected his nephew and fought against the injustice of killing a young girl for political reasons. He lived his life in such a way that his daughter talks about how much she misses him at the end of the season in loving terms in contrast to Cersei who can only speak about her fathers loss in purely political/ pragmatic terms. - Dorne is fundamentally uninmportant on the show and Doran wasn't a fully fleshed out character enough to have a legacy to leave. But Ellaria has a legacy. Her legacy/ theme is how destructive and corrosive the desire for vengeance ultimatley is. (I get that is 100% different than the books where she speaks out against vengeance instead of epitimize the folly of it as she does on the TV show) EDIT: i don't want to overstate the point or to short thrift Doran. There is definetly the theme with him of failing to really take the measure of your people, the risk that occurs when you want to zig and they want to zag, the limits of how much autonomy a leader truly has and frankly the danger of being too merciful. Like Ned he did fail as a politician. But that doesn't mean he didn't live a worthy life or that he didn't leave a positive legacy etc. He just isn't the focus of the story nor is one of his relatives the main character so we don't get to explore the man beyond the politician. EDIT 2: Actually thinking about it a bit more, maybe we can say the same thing about Doran as we said about Ned although i say this with less confidence since we know so little about him and he is truly not the focus of the story. But he kept his region out of the War of the Five Kings. How many lives did he save because of that? How many men who otherwise would have died fighting a pointless war so that one family or another could sit on some chair were able to love during that time, able to start families, care for their parents, spend time with their brothers and sisters etc? Given that our reality is defined by the fact that the end sucks no matter what and that its the events leading up to it that are meaninful, Doran gave an opportunity to his people to have another five years of peace and life before "Ellaria and her brood of bitches" came and did their best to start a war. That means something no matter his ultimate failing as a politician.
  22. Again, do you honestly think that what you are describing can be attributed to the genius of D&D? I can assure you that is not the case. The reason I continue to come back for "another steaming bowl of shit" as you so aptly put it, is because I've had a vested interest in the story that is being told, since long, long before D&D ever heard of GRRM, or A Song of Ice and Fire. I am curious to see how these hacks are butchering a work of art, enjoy the CGI (something that is in no way a result of D&D's genius), and have every right to watch a show I think is crappy, criticize it if I feel it's warranted, and could care less if you don't think that is a respectable position. Sure, they deserve credit for what they have done, but you are trying to give them credit for something that has nothing to do with them. If you took D&D out of the equation, and had some other nobody from the business take their place, the show would have still been a huge success. If you took GRRM's story out of the equation, and nixed HBO's budget, D&D would not be able to produce the same results. The shows success is a result of GRRM's story, and HBO's financial support and backing, not due to D&D's genius. Anyone lucky enough to fall into the opportunity that they did, could produce the same results in that situation, and most would have done far better. Just look at the quality of the show when they were following the source material, compared to the incoherent, clichéd, nonsensical drivel that they have produced on their own. Believe me, the show wouldn't have been a success if season one was anything like the past three; Book fans would have despised the show, it would have never been renewed for a second season, and all of the fans that now love the show, would have never heard of GRRM, or aSoIaF.
  23. !! Important. I'm ok with either of these options: Lord of Winterfell or Hand of the King, not so much the last one but it's a possibility.
  24. Yep! This! As I said, she won't be domesticated in her future life. She won't be a typical Lord's wife. She will marry an equal, might even rule his castle (not in the way she believed she wouldn't in s1,), or she will be live with him adventures as an explorer with the one she loves, Gendry! Nymeria stays with her pack. She will do the same. She will choose her pack like Nymeria. I love this one........ Father…. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives I miss him Arya is quickly reminded of her father then...... And..... That's the sentence Arya picks up when she is worried in the books. That's the sentence that will "safe" her in the books.... ... The FM men tells her that she will be no one's daughter as well in the same sentence. Of course, that's not Arya Stark You will be no one's daughter, no one's wife, no one's mother. Your name ... she won't do what the FM told her. She will find love with Gendry. We know she cares about her father ...... The lone wolf dies but the pack survives.... The connection goes full circle. And of course.... Her name....... show: I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home" Destined to Willow! She has a beautiful reaction though... or the video: What about happy? SanSan will happen! .................................................................... Oh and Sandorspeak! I dn't give two shits about wildings! Gingers I hate!!! .................................... And this parallel... She will be protected by......Sandor!
  25. A *reason that Rob had success ruling the Riverlands is that he had no desire to destroy the septs and grow a weirwood in the rubble. It is likely that Mel would desire to destroy the Great Sept of Balor and convert all to the faith of the Lord of the Ligh. Even if Stannis would stop Mel before the destruction of the Great Sept, the fact that an extremest who desired the destruction of their religion was his close adviser would irritate not only the Faith but the more religious Lords.
  26. This was not a good day. Bump
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