The Twinslayer

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  1. Prior to the Conquest, the Starks called themselves "Lord of Winterfell" and "King in the North." From Ned Stark: "The first Lords of Winterfell had been men as hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North." It is therefore not surprising that Ygritte referred to the Lord of Winterfell. What would have been surprising would be for her to refer to a Stark as the "King in the North" when from her perspective, Winterfell is in "the South" (as she explains to Jon Snow). So I would not use Ygritte's reference to the Lord of Winterfell to mean that Bael's adventures took place after Aegon's conquest. The fact that Lord Bolton flayed Bael's bastard likely places those events prior to the time the Karstarks broke away from the main Stark line. Meaning that the Karstarks are all descended from Bael. That is what gives rise to the theory that Dany's vision of a blue rose at the Wall, when she visits the Houses of the Undying, is a prophesy that one of Bael's female descendants would one day arrive at the Wall. A prophesy that was fulfilled in A Dance With Dragons, when Alys Karstark arrived.
  2. Probably worth a reminder that discussion of the show in the General forum can lead to a ban: You might want to delete the text of those posts before someone reports them. Unless I am mistaken about what those posts were about (I stopped reading before getting to what it appeared might be show-related stuff). That is very important to those of us who don't watch the show, especially since the final season is about to come out.
  3. I think you are mistaken. The Riverlords would never have taken Robb for their king if he had not been half-Tully. Only a descendent of Hoster Tully could have taken that crown. Also, Robb cared deeply about the Riverlands. He spent his entire reign as king there. If the Riverlands were not important to him, when Ned died he would have just returned to the North, fortified the Neck, and enjoyed a long reign over his independent kingdom. My overall point is that Robb did not have any great options. Jon could never have held the loyalty of the River lords even if he could have gained the loyalty of the North.
  4. Remember that Robb was King of both the North (as a son of Eddard Stark) and the Riverlands (as a grandson of Hoster Tully). When he named an heir, he was naming someone to rule both parts of his kingdom. How likely do you think it is that Robb named a foreign bastard with no blood connections to the Tullys ,who worships foreign gods, who is sworn to hold no lands, take no wife, and wear no crowns and has never been South of the Neck, as the King of the Riverlands? Having been Lady Stark for 15 years, having spent significant time with every noble house in the North, and potentially being the mother to Robb's half-sibling (if she marries again), Catelyn has a better chance of holding the North than Jon does of holding the Riverlands.
  5. Interesting theory. A few small things that don't preclude your theory being correct. First, Ashara was never a lady in waiting to Elia in King's Landing. There is an old SSM from 1999 that says that but it is superceded by the world book which says Elia lived in Dragonstone at that time. Second, Allyria may not be a Dayne. Ned Dayne says he has an aunt named Allyria but does not say if she is on his father's side or his mother's. Third, if you think Wylla is from the area around White Harbor, have you considered that she might be the fisherman's daughter who is mentioned to Davos as Jon Snow's mother in ADWD?
  6. All in the spirit of fun, I should add this to my list: Robert says to Ned "you were the one should have been king, you or Jon." Ned replies: "You had the better claim, Your Grace." When Ned says that Robert has a better claim than Jon Arryn, what he really means is that Jon Snow has a better claim than Robert.
  7. I agree. And presumably Dawn will put in an appearance at some point. I think the original plan must have been for Ned Dayne to grow up during the five year gap so he could play a significant role in the end game. But he is still too young, and we know he does not have an older brother (because he is Lord Dayne). I wonder if Darkstar was created so that he can fill that role.
  8. This is what the wiki says but the wiki is wrong for several reasons. First, Beric is not betrothed to Ned Dayne's aunt. Berric is married to her. Ned Dayne says that Beric and his aunt were "espoused," which is used elsewhere to mean marriage. Second, we are never told that Beric's lady is Allyria, just that the lady in question is Ned Dayne's aunt. Beric may very well be married to the sister of Ned's mother who likely had no ties to House Dayne prior to her marriage. Third, we don't know that Allyria is a Dayne at all. We just know that she is Ned's aunt. She could easily be his mother's sister.
  9. No. Robert's will (as dictated by Robert) named Joffrey as his heir and named Ned to be regent "until my son Joffrey does come of age." But Ned doesn't want Joffrey to be the heir so he forges that part of the will. "So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said 'my son Joffrey,' he scrawled 'my heir' instead." Ned then thinks about the fact that the "heir" -- Stannis -- is already of age but that he will wait to proclaim him king "until Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power." Robert's will (as he dictated it to Ned) confirmed that Joffrey was his son and heir. Ned had no intention of obeying that. Instead, he wanted Stannis to come in with an army and seize the throne. I don't think he would have done that if he liked the Lannisters more than he liked Stannis.
  10. Because you enjoy the discussion as much as I do. The question we are exploring is whether polygamy was outlawed during the reign of Jaehaerys I. GRRM has not told us outright, but he has left some clues in the books. We are discussing those clues. If I have followed your logic, you are saying that GRRM has, in fact, told us that polygamy is legal by stating (in an SSM) that there was, and is, precedent for it. My point here is just that the existence of precedent does not make something legal. Precedent just means that something happened before. For example, there is precedent for a member of the kingsguard killing the king he swore to protect and then continuing to serve in the kingsguard. That does not mean it is an accepted practice or that if it happens again, the person responsible will be permitted to stay in the kingsguard.
  11. I think Robb had one other option: to fortify the Neck and dare Joffrey to come after him. I don't think he had to march in defense of the Tullys (Lysa Arryn didn't march in defense of the Tullys and even though some of her lords objected, she was able to maintain control of the Vale). But I still don't thin that was a realistic option. Robb believed that he would lose the respect of his lords if he did not march to rescue his father. None of them believed that Ned was really a traitor. As to your second question, I think there is a good case to be made that Ned was, in fact, a traitor. It appears that, under the law of Westeros, Joffrey was Robert's son and heir even if biologically he was Jaime's son. We know this because Tywin tells Tyrion that they are legally father and son because Tywin can't prove otherwise. Plus, Robert openly acknowledged Joffrey as his son and heir and never tried to contest paternity. Under those circumstances, Joffrey was the rightful king. I will now add a third question. What was Ned's motive in opposing Joffrey? Was he trying to seat the rightful king on the throne? Or was he just trying to block his old enemies, the Lannisters, and to save Sansa from marriage to Joffrey? From the very beginning of the book we are told how much Ned distrusts and dislikes the Lannisters, and we see them acting in ways that appear to confirm that they are sinister. The question of Joffrey's paternity gave him an excuse to oppose them (even going so far as to re-write Robert's will without telling him). Would Ned have done the same in other circumstances? Suppose Robert had married Lysa Tully, Lysa had a son, and that son was sent to Ned for fostering. Further suppose that the boy grew up to be everything Ned could ever wish for in a king and he was betrothed to Sansa. But then, just as Robert lay dying, and the boy was asking Stannis to serve as Hand, Ned noticed that the child looked a lot like Littlefinger and nothing like Robert. Would Ned have investigated his suspicions or simply let the boy take the throne and marry Sansa?
  12. It is true that GRRM has some ability to make up new things, but we are talking about what is most likely based on what we have read so far. To me, if GRRM writes that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and expected anyone to accept that marriage as valid it will look like a retcon. GRRM has made clear that a marriage is only valid if it is generally accepted. Consider this exchange between Dany and the Green Grace: "If we should wed by Westerosi rites..." "The gods of Ghis would deem it no true union. In the eyes of the city you would be the noble Hizdahr's concubine, not his lawful wedded wife. Your children would be bastards. Your Worship must marry Hizdahr in the Temple of the Graces, with all the nobility of Meereen on hand to bear witness to your union." If Rhaegar tried to sell Lyanna on a polygamous marriage, someone should have given her exactly that speech. Aegon the Conqueror was able to get away with it because he and his wives had control of three mature dragons and they used them to subjugate the kings of Westeros. Dany could not get away with a wedding that would be unacceptable to Meereen because she did not control her dragons or the city. Rhaegar's position was even weaker: he would have to ask people to accept not just his attempt to usurp his father but also his attempt to revive polygamy. I find that possibility very unrealistic. So I doubt there was a secret Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage but I don't think it matters because it would be no true union and Jon would still be a bastard. Yes. There was and is precedent for lords exercising the "right" of first night, too, but that does not make it legal.
  13. 1. "Conciliate." Since GRRM is American, let's use the Webster's dictionary: (1) "to gain (something, such as goodwill) by pleasing acts; (2) to make compatible...; (3) to appease." In order for Jaehaerys to be "the Concilator" he had to do something please the Faith. He could not just dictate terms. 2. The fact that later Targaryens considered polygamy. This is much less important than the fact that they all asked the king's permission and were refused. Consider this: if Roose Bolton had asked Robert's permission to practice first night and Robert refused, would that be evidence that first night was legal? Of course not. The same logic applies to requests to engage in polygamy. The fact that every time we see this it is a request to the king that is refused does not imply that it is legal. It implies precisely the opposite. 3. Evidence. The evidence that polygamy was outlawed is circumstantial but it is strong. The Faith prohibits it, Jaehaerys conciliated with the Faith, and the polygamy stopped. Anyone who wanted to do it later asked for permission from the king and the king refused. No-one did it without the king's permission. Robb Stark never considered it and everyone knew that when he married Jeyne he automatically broke his Frey betrothal. Etc. 4. The ban on first night. This shows that the Prince of Dragonstone was bound to the same laws as any other lord. Of course, the king could give him an exemption (as was done for every incestuous marriage) but unless there is evidence that Rhaegar got permission from Aerys to take a second wife then doing so would very likely be illegal. 5. Maegor. Maegor's actions prior to the Conciliation tell us nothing about whether polygamy was illegal after the Conciliation. For there to be proof that polygamy was legal after the Conciliation we would need an example of a member of a royal family or noble house taking two wives during or after the reign of Jaehaerys and there being general acceptance that the children of the second wife were legitimate and could inherit. 6. We do know some of the seven vows exchanged at a wedding in a sept and one of them is fidelity. That vow is regularly broken (with mistresses, prostitutes, etc.) but the offspring resulting from breaking that vow is never born legitimate. What? The Black Prince not only had his father's permission to marry Joan but he received a papal dispensation as well. Otherwise, their children would not have been eligible to inherit the throne.
  14. The fact is, we really don't know what agreement Jaehaerys reached with the Faith when he ended the Faith Militant uprising. It is possible, as you have suggested, that there was no agreement: Jaehaerys won the war and he dictated terms to the Faith without making any concessions other than a toothless promise to "protect and defend the Faith." I think if that were the case, he would be known to history as "Jaehaerys the Dictator." But he is not "the Dictator," he is "the Conciliator." To me that implies that he made some concessions that allowed the leaders of the Faith to save face. That is what conciliation means. We know what the Faith gave up: the right to judge their own in their own courts and the weapons of the Faith Militant. We know what Jaehaerys did not give up: his marriage with his sister, the legitimacy of his children, and his family's ability to control the dragons, i.e., incest. But we do know that there was something else that really bothered the Faith and that would cost Jaehaerys nothing if he gave it up: polygamy. This is something that House Targaryen viewed as neither common nor important. Outlawing it would go a long way toward making the Faith happy and it would cast no more doubt on Jaehaerys' own legitimacy than the Act of Settlement (prohibiting English princes and princesses from marrying Roman Catholics in the future) casts on Queen Elizabeth II's legitimacy even though she is descended from a long line of Roman Catholic monarchs. And we also know that House Targaryen steered clear of polygamy after that. I think that if you see 2 of the first 3 kings practicing polygamy over the objection of the Faith, a reconciliation with the Faith and the establishment of a uniform code of laws for the entire country, and then no king even attempting polygamy for more than 300 years after that, that is a pretty good indication that polygamy was outlawed. And, we have to remember that House Targaryen was not exempt from the general laws relating to marriage practices. The Princess and the Queen explains that prior to the reign of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, first night was practiced on Dragonstone, but that the practice was banned. Meaning that after the new law, the ruler of Dragonstone -- usually, the Crown Prince -- was forbidden from practicing first night. During the reign of Aerys II, that ruler was Rhaegar. So if Rhaegar had tried to practice first night, which certainly is a custom relating to marriage, he would be breaking the law -- proving that the Targaryens are not exempt from the laws relating to marriage. You also have to remember that we aren't talking about a king here, we are talking about Prince Rhaegar. There are a few examples where lesser royals asked for permission to take a second wife, but that permission was never given and no-one ever tried it without the king's permission (unlike the incestuous marriages, which were all done either with prospective or retroactive permission from the king). That is likely because (as in medieval Europe), a prince who married without the king's permission lost his and his children's place in the succession. So if Rhaegar did try to marry Lyanna, it likely means that Jon is a bastard (or the product of a morganatic marriage) anyway. In the end, I think that an argument that because Targaryen princes and princesses were able to marry close relatives if they had the king's permission, that must mean that a Targaryen prince could take a second wife without the king's permission, makes little sense. ETA: Also note that Rhaegar married Elia in a sept, so one of his vows was a vow of fidelity to her. There is no evidence at all that Targaryens had their own special wedding vows that left out the one about monogomy.
  15. Here are just a few ideas you could try: The Hedge Knight shows us Prince Baelor, a Targaryen who lacks purple eyes and silver-gold hair, so Jon's hair and eye color show that he could be a Targaryen. The Princess and the Queen shows Aegon II barely surviving after being bathed in the fire of three large dragons, so the fact that Jon's hand got burned by a lamp shows that he could be a Targaryen. Arya horseface's father tells her that she looks like Lyanna, who was so beautiful that Rhaegar and Robert tore the realm apart fighting for her hand. Jon looks kind of like Arya, so he could be Lyanna's son. Ned could be lying about Jon being his son because he admits he broke his wedding vows to Catelyn, which demonstrates his willingness to lie even though he wants people to think he is honorable. Wylla might not be Jon's mother because Ned Stark could be lying to Robert and Ned Dayne's family could be lying to him when they all say Wylla was the mother. Ashara might not be Jon's mother because Sansa heard a rumor Jon's mother was common. Also, even though she wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion and Ned traveled all over the 7 kingdoms during that time, they might not have been in the right place at the right time to have conceived Jon. Lyanna might have had a baby because "bloody bed" might mean the same thing as "bed of blood" which might mean childbirth (and only childbirth). Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar because, unlike Robert, Rhaegar could be trusted to keep to one bed (other than Elia's). Ned never thinks about Jon's mother but he does think about Rhaegar a lot. Even though he believes that he has not thought about Rhaegar in many years (he could be lying to himself about that -- see point #4). Ned thinks of Rhaegar's mother (Rhaella Targaryen) exactly the same number of times as he thinks of Lyanna's mother (Lyarra Stark) because he thinks of each of them exactly 0 times. If Ned spends exactly the same amount of time thinking of each of Jon's grandmothers, then Jon could be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Mormont's raven might be skinchanged by Bloodraven and might have said "king" when looking at or away from Jon. Because Bloodraven has no better way to get a message to Jon, this might be Bloodraven's way of telling Jon to find a way to leave the Wall so he can go and take the Iron Throne. According to Ser Barristan, Rhaegar was a most puissant warrior. And Jon is learning to fight with a sword. So he could be Rhaegar's son. Robert jokes that he did not see many common folk in the North because they were hiding from him under the "snow." This might mean that Jon Snow was born in Dorne and is actually the rightful king of Westeros. There was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar. Lyanna might have been melancholy as well (we hear the expression, "as melancholy as a Stark"). If both of his parents were melancholy, that could explain why Jon is sometimes melancholy as well. Jon was guarded by 3 kingsguards when he was born. Jon Darry says that when those kingsguards donned their white cloaks, they promised to obey Rhaegar's orders. Rhaegar made them fulfill that promise when he ordered them to stay at the tower of joy and guard his unborn child (which might have been Jon). So that means Jon might be the prince who was promised.