Clegane'sPup

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  1. The polite name I call the pink/bastard letter is dastardly. The impolite name is mind fuck. When I made the earlier post something clicked in my befuddled mind. I have to do a bit of digging around to see it my has any relevance. Edit: my long winded non explanation Who is at WF beside Bolton & Frey forces? Theon gives a few names. Let me not forget to mention the not hooded “hooded man.” A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell The castle was too crowded to withstand a long siege, and too many of the lords here were of uncertain loyalty. Fat Wyman Manderly, Whoresbane Umber, the men of House Hornwood and House Tallhart, the Lockes and Flints and Ryswells, all of them were northmen, sworn to House Stark for generations beyond count./ A ruckus breaks out when one of the Frey’s brings the dead Walder kid into the Hall. A Dance with Dragons - Theon I Ser Hosteen Frey ripped his longsword from its scabbard and leapt toward Wyman Manderly. The Lord of White Harbor tried to jerk away, but the tabletop pinned him to his chair. The blade slashed through three of his four chins in a spray of bright red blood. Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness." His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys./ Roose brings order to the Hall. A raven has arrived saying Stannis is not three days from WF and he gives the order for Frey and Manderly troops to ride. Here is a problem –Manderly is flopping around on the floor like a clubbed walrus yet Roose says Wyman is to gather his forces. A Dance with Dragons - Theon I "I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words. "Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis." Lord Bolton unrolled the parchment. "His host lies not three days' ride from here, snowbound and starving, and I for one am tired of waiting on his pleasure. Ser Hosteen, assemble your knights and men-at-arms by the main gates. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. Lord Wyman, gather your White Harbor men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well."/ Roose calls Mance/Abel to the dais. The Freys leave. Rowan tells Theon the time is now. They get fArya out of her room and on to road of rescue. A Dance with Dragons - Theon I Beyond the castle walls, winter was waiting with its icy teeth. If we get that far. "This way," he said when they came to a junction where three trenches crossed. "Frenya, Holly, go with them," Rowan said. "We will be along with Abel. Do not wait for us." And with that, she whirled and plunged into the snow, toward the Great Hall. Willow and Myrtle hurried after her, cloaks snapping in the wind./ Shyte hits the fan. Theon grabs Jeyne and jumps. That ends Theon’s DwD story until the preview chapter is displayed on Martin’s site. Theon and Jeyne are now in Stannis’ possession. The Winds of Winter - Theon I "I saved her." The outer wall of Winterfell was eighty feet high, but beneath the spot where he had jumped the snows had piled up to a depth of more than forty. A cold white pillow. The girl had taken the worst of it. Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, but she will never tell them. Theon had landed on top of her, and broken some of her ribs. "I saved the girl," he said. "We flew." Stannis snorted. "You fell. Umber saved her. If Mors Crowfood and his men had not been outside the castle, Bolton would have had the both of you back in moments." Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, "I am — "/ Theon remembers that Crowfood sorta interrogates Jeyne. Crowfood is Mors, not Whoresbane who is Hother. Hother is the one inside WF. Theon also remembers that while he was in Crowfood/Mors possession the portcullis opens. Was that the Freys or the Manderlys riding out? The Winds of Winter - Theon I "Mikken," Jeyne said. Mors Umber had grunted. "Aye." What he might have said or done next Theon never learned, for that was when the boy ran up, clutching a spear and shouting that the portcullis on Winterfell's main gate was rising. And how Crowfood had grinned at that. Mance’s last known location was sitting on the dais after the Freys left the Hall. Before the alarm went out Rowan, Willow and Myrtle were on their way back to the Hall. A Dance with Dragons - Theon I "Frenya, Holly, go with them," Rowan said. "We will be along with Abel. Do not wait for us." And with that, she whirled and plunged into the snow, toward the Great Hall. Willow and Myrtle hurried after her, cloaks snapping in the wind./ Stannis interrogates the Dreadfort maester. The Winds of Winter - Theon I Maester Tybald did not answer. Theon Greyjoy kicked his feet feebly, and laughed under his breath. Caught! "Answer me. If we were to loose these birds, would they return to the Dreadfort?" The king leaned forward. "Or might they fly for Winterfell instead?" Maester Tybald pissed his robes. Theon could not see the dark stain spreading from where he hung, but the smell of piss was sharp and strong./ So you see it solves nothing. Supposedly that Theon chapter happened before the pink/bastard letter arrived at Castle Black. Before you ask, no I can’t supply any ssm’s. Maybe someone else can verify if they are so inclined. Or a person can ask a small question as to which came first.
  2. Yes, Bran has multiple images in his dreams. In one of his early dreams he dreamt that Eddard was down in the crypts. A Game of Thrones - Bran VII The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad." "And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube. "It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts." The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking. "Hodor won't …?"/ Hodor wouldn’t take Bran there. Luwin has Osha take Bran there. They find Rickon is down there. It appears that Rickon also dreamt of Eddard being in the crypts. A Game of Thrones - Bran VII "Shaggy," a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father's tomb. With one final snap at Summer's face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon's side. "You let my father be," Rickon warned Luwin. "You let him be." "Rickon," Bran said softly. "Father's not here." "Yes he is. I saw him." Tears glistened on Rickon's face. "I saw him last night." "In your dream …?" Rickon nodded. "You leave him. You leave him be. He's coming home now, like he promised. He's coming home." Bran had never seen Maester Luwin look so uncertain before./ The group leaves the crypts and returns to the maesters tower where they have a conversation. The chapter is a good read lots of information. They talk about dreams, CotF, dragonglass/obsidian. Osha, the wildling woman, makes some rather interesting remarks. “The children of the forest could tell you a thing or two about dreaming.” “North of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants and the other old races.” When Luwin is giving his history lesson Summer begins to howl. Then Shaggy chimes in. Then Bran thinks--- A Game of Thrones - Bran VII Summer began to howl. Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. "It's coming," he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow … The howling stopped as suddenly as it had begun. Summer padded across the tower floor to Shaggydog, and began to lick at a mat of bloody fur on the back of his brother's neck. From the window came a flutter of wings./ The raven brought word of Eddard’s death. Both Bran and Rickon had the dream about their father. Bran has the vocabulary and knowledge of an eight year old. He doesn’t know he is warging Summer until the Reed kids show up and tell him. He describes it as a wolf dream. In one of these books Bran prays to the old gods not to send a dream tonight. The weirwoods and heart tree represents the old gods. A Clash of Kings - Bran I "Do trees dream?" "Trees? No . . ." "They do," Bran said with sudden certainty. "They dream tree dreams. I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood." Bran interacted with crows not ravens. Ravens accompany Coldhands. Coldhands is looking for, as he says, the one. The Ravens can enter the cave. Coldhands can’t. Bran skinchanges a raven. The raven had a spirit in it. The spirit was that of a CotF/singer. Martin uses different words to describe the same thing, which annoyed me to no end on the first read ---CotF/singers, dragonglass/obsidian, free folk/wildlings, etc . According to the old man in the CotF cave Bran is a greenseer by blood. To me that means he was born a greenseer. He has the gift. It didn’t start to awaken until the deirwolves were introduced into the story. Someone in the story, I think it was Jon said, “Your children were meant to have these pups.” As a bonus, Jon got one too --- because Jon heard a noise that no one else heard. Martin spent five books getting Bran to what is in Bran’s mind’s eye the three eyed crow. The old man in the cave tells Bran he had been watching for a while. He also tells Bran something along the line --- now you see why I could not come to you except in dreams. Bran’s fly or die dream brought him out of his comma. Has the the third eye symbol been brought up ---- a gateway to enlightenment or higher consciousness. In some circles the third eye is a mystical path to knowledge. A short example would be Syrio’s little speech to Arya A Game of Thrones - Arya IV Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there." "Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth." Is the below quote part of the dream that woke Bran from his comma? A Game of Thrones - Bran III Because winter is coming. Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away. A Clash of Kings - Bran IV "Was it magic?" "Call it that for want of a better word, if you must. At heart it was only a different sort of knowledge."
  3. I do not mean any offense. Perhaps I am just dense or uneducated. So forgive my comprehension. From what I have read Jon is not Bran's 3EC nor is the crow a woman. Martin took five books to get Bran & companions to the CotF cave and the old man. Why?
  4. Laughing my ass off. That is such a loaded statement. I'm hearing the Cops theme song. I agree. LC Snow as far as I know and from what I read as of the end of DwD did not send Mance to to WF. Supposedly Mance was let loose to intercept a girl on a horse fleeing her marriage due to one of Mel's visions. The girl turns out to be a Karstark. Either there is a shit load of information that the reader is not privy to or there is a glitch. At the time Jon receives the letter that demands Ramsey's bride be returned Stannis is in possession of fArya and Theon. Speaking of Mance in the guise of Abel --- being caught and put in a cage --- this is his last known position: A Dance with Dragons - Theon I "As he says. There will be time enough to fight each other once we are done with Stannis." He turned his head, his pale cold eyes searching the hall until they found the bard Abel beside Theon. "Singer," he called, "come sing us something soothing." Abel bowed. "If it please your lordship." Lute in hand, he sauntered to the dais, hopping nimbly over a corpse or two, and seated himself cross-legged on the high table. As he began to play—a sad, soft song that Theon Greyjoy did not recognize—Ser Hosteen, Ser Aenys, and their fellow Freys turned away to lead their horses from the hall./ Mance, or if you wish, Abel has full view of the hall. To his back is the Lord's door. A Clash of Kings - Bran III They went out the rear rather than walk the length of the hall, Bran ducking his head as they passed through the lord's door. In the dim-lit gallery outside the Great Hall, they came upon Joseth the master of horse engaged in a different sort of riding. My question is that is that during the time his women are trying to get fArya out of WF and alarm goes out does Mance have time to get out of the Hall?
  5. I would suggest the author probably does know the difference between a crow and a raven. I would further suggest that the crow raven thing is part of his ambiguous writing style. Example being, Bran climbs structures and feeds crows corn. My assumption is that Bran child knows the difference betwixt the two birds that belong to the same (?) family. I don’t have ravens in my part of the country. I have crows and hawks. I would further stipulate that Mormont’s raven likes corn. Big whoop. So does Bran’s crows. Herein lays the problem as I see it--- Jojen almost dies from a sickness. During which he has a dream. Jojen gets well and tells his pop about the dream. Howland sends his children to WF. Jojen & his sister try to convince Bran that he is special and that they need to embark on a journey to find this three eyed crow. Never mind that Jojen’s papa is the crannogman who now controls the Neck and that he rode with Eddard to Rhaegar’s tower of joy. It took five books to get Bran to his destination. Why did the old man in the CotF cave stutter, sputter and mumble? Could it possibly be that he hasn’t engaged in conversation for a while? While you and @LiveFirstDieLater have put forth interesting ideas that the 3EC is not the man in the CotF cave that I assume to be Bloodraven aka LC Rivers it begs the question as to why Coldhands was looking for the “one” when he came upon and saved Samwell & Gilly and why Coldhands fought to get Bran & companions into a cave that he can't enter. Why were Coldhands and the ravens so intent on getting Bran & companions to the CotF cave and the old man? Bran while in the cave skinchanged a raven. He felt the presence of another spirit inside the bird. A Dance with Dragons - Bran III "Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her.""A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you." "Do all the birds have singers in them?" "All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."/ What was Luwin’s history lesson? He talks of the CotF, whose wisemen were called greenseers. If I look at Luwin’s history lesson to Bran I see similarities between the CotF and Howland’s children. I put the lesson in reveal tabs to save space.
  6. You did a good job of pulling that all together. That said, the “Crows are all liars” may taken a bit out of context. My thought is that she is placating Bran. As in agreeing with him or trying to help him feel better. Now that old Nan has been carried off to the Dreadfort I may never get to hear her tale of the crow. A Game of Thrones - Bran IV "It was just a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. "I can't fly. I can't even run." "Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. "I know a story about a crow." "I don't want any more stories," Bran snapped, his voice petulant. He had liked Old Nan and her stories once. Before. But it was different now. They left her with him all day now, to watch over him and clean him and keep him from being lonely, but she just made it worse. "I hate your stupid stories." The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."/ Granted there may be some truth in her story telling. There is also a possibility that there is some exaggeration/embellishment in her stories as set up in Bran’s first chapter. Story telling is a form of entertainment. Some of the Grimm tales were downright scary. Then there other storys that give a child a warm & fuzzy glow. A Game of Thrones - Bran I The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children./ A Game of Thrones - Bran I "He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others." His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile./ In hindsight I know that the man Eddard beheads is a man from the prologue. The prologue that introduced the Other’s. I also see the introduction of the name Mance Rayder who is referenced as King Beyond the Wall. Later in the story I am told that Mance is a deserter of the NW and that men of the NW are referred to as crows. What’s the possibility that the story about the crow old Nan was going to tell Bran was about a NW man? A man such as Mance or LC Rivers or Coldhands? As this saga begins I am privy to the knowledge that the Other’s exist. The people of Westeros don’t know that. Eddard seemingly paid no heed to words the man said, “The man was half mad.” A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North. "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well." "Is it the wildlings?" she asked. "Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all." "Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder. Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." "There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts. His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one." "Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either," Catelyn reminded him./ As the saga grows the author builds upon the pieces he starts with revealing more and more of his tale. Seriously though, it is highly improbable that I will read Old Nan’s story/tale about the crow which may or may not have been about LC Brynden Rivers. Since you asked for thoughts, if you don’t mind I will come back later with more as it relates to ravens & crows, the 3EC & Lord Rivers and dreams & the old gods. Perhaps with a boring but practical reason why the 125 (?) man being kept alive by a tree stumbles, stutters and sputters with his words. Thanks.
  7. Well yes, until the WoW is released the readers are stuck with multiple cliffhangers. As to the cat in the box ----- when my cat gets rowdy and mischievous ----- he has a cardboard box filled with gift wrap tissue paper ----- after he does what cats do he gets in that box and digs around ------ then he sits there looking at me as if to say ----- I didn't do it and you can't see me while I am in my box. Cracks me up every time.
  8. Why should he? Are you insinuating that Targ polygamy in these novels and incest are the same? It pretty much is dependent upon ones outlook. It kinda depends on whether one is okay with brother and sister doing the wild thawg. Which I am not. That aside, Tywin shows a dislike that his son, Tyion,is a dwarf.
  9. Ummmmmmmmmm, depending upon which side of the fence a person is setting ---- LC Snow may not be dead. He may be wounded. True dat one of the many cliffhangers of DwD is whether or not he is dead. Personally I think he is wounded. Thereby no priestess of the Red God resurrection is needed.
  10. Whoa now. Why is Arya so boring? Started by manchester_babe, November 29 Arya is boring. She really is. But why is that? Maybe it`s because you can only do so much with her. The above is what you posted on the internet. It doen't take a genius to realize you are either a teenager or a a person pretending to be a teenager.
  11. Thanks for setting me straight. It may sound a bit snarky. I actually mean it.
  12. I agree. I have to ask. Hate, that is such a strong word. I'm reading a fictional book for enjoyment and there is a character I don't particularly like or identify with what does that mean? It comes down to perception. Martin’s A Game of Thrones was published in 1996 when he was approximately 40+years of age. This is 2017some twenty years later. I would venture to say that some posters merely throw their hands up in the air and say, “Okay.” I’m done. I ain’t getting my bowels in an uproar and fighting to the death over some fictional never ending saga or some off the wall theory. So there you have it. Someone believes something and a different person believes something else. Trying to comprehend the author’s story depends on how far one has their head up their arse. Or whether or not they are trying to get some likes. Did twitter exist in 1996?
  13. Har! You be a ghost. How you do dat? Or better still why you do dat?
  14. This has gone on for five pages. How many times has @manchester_babe replied to anyone's bs concerning the topic? The character Arya is not boring. Martin's decision to have the child roaming around in the same area over a long period of time is boring. It starts out in GoT with Yoren snatching her up in KL. Yoren is gonna drop her off at WF ---- and the story goes on and on and on without her reaching the goal until she arrives at the HoBaW and then the story goes on and on. In FfC Arya had 3 chapters. In DwD she had 2 (?) chapters. Those chapters are giving information about what? The HoBaW. I'm taking a short cut here rather than boring you with my yammering. What is the relevance of describing the workings of the FM? Basically that is what her DwD chapters are about.
  15. Looks like you were last online in this forum July 29.
  16. Are we talking about those who cloak their behavior?
  17. My favorite poofy bouffant board member, what is sadder is that some of the people actually believe what they post. Edit: I shouldn't do this but I'm gonna do it anyway. I miss Jon Stewart. John Oliver is coming close to replacing him. Whataboutism and trolling ---- for fun and for free.
  18. In my best Tormund voice --- Har, I say, Har Har! I know this is a futile and useless exercise. Humor me. How did you come to the above conclusion?
  19. How does a person bring back a poster‘s 2014 work and give them the credit for a job well done?
  20. The last re-read I did was back in 2015. I read the entire five books cover to cover in preparation for a hopeful WoW release in 2016. I say that to let you know that sometimes my memory needs to be jogged. There are a lot of interwoven story lines in this saga. The only thing I can comfortably say about that dastardly pink/bastard letter is that I think it was tampered with in some way. The major thing that sticks out in my mind is the line toward the end of the letter. DwD Jon XIII “Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.” I can’t put my finger on why that bothers me except that to my way of thinking it is something a wildling would say. Back in 2014 a poster brought all four letters together. I’ll leave the link below. The poster put the letters in individual reveal tags and then gave a short synopsis after each letter. I found it to be an interesting read and discussion. Well worth my time. @Tagganaro just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your perspective.
  21. @Lyanna<3Rhaegar All a person can do is keep pointing out that fArya is not at WF and that LC Snow does not have her. The rest of the post is not directed to you. It’s merely me yapping about the overall discussion. There is probably a chunk of information that the reader has not yet been privy to yet. An example would be the Theon chapter that was moved from DwD to WoW. The Theon chapter reveals that Stannis has Theon & fArya in his procession. Yes, LC Snow should have taken Mance into custody as a deserter when Mel revealed the Mance Rattleshirt glamor. Except Martin decided that Mance would go to WF. If LC Snow committed an act of treason it would for aiding Stannis. The seat of power in Westeros is the person sitting the Iron Throne in Kings Landing. Stannis is an enemy of the Throne which is under control of the Lannister’s under the guise that Robert’s children are his true children, his blood. Yes, Jon spared Mance. Jon broke a rule not a decree. Jon did not send Mance and the women to WF. He sent them to intercept a girl on a horse fleeing from her marriage. Meaning that the girl was on the run. Remember that the wedding invitation stated the wedding was to take place at Barrowton. Roose decided to move the wedding to WF. Mance and the women showed up at WF after the Bolton entourage had settled in. Throw the pink/bastard letter into the mix and my mind explodes. Or is that implodes? LC Snow broke a rule by not taking Mance into custody. Treason would his assisting Stannis. The letter told Jon that Arya was not at WF. Jon did not decide to go to WF for Arya. My opinion is that Jon decided to ride to WF with the wildlings to protect what is left of the NW. The wildlings decided to help Jon because the Bolton’s are holding Mance. Surprise, their leader is alive and now being held in a cage at WF. That letter says Stannis is dead. Arya is missing, therefore she is not at WF. Jon’s plan was to fight the Warden of the North who was appointed by the Crown (Lannister’s) which could be considered treason. BUT, because LC Snow decided to move the fight to WF without the help of the NW it would leave the NW out of harms way should Bolton indeed carry through on their threat to attack him and the Watch. I firmly believe Marsh is not the brains behind the mutiny and assassination attempt of LC Snow. Jon made the decision to ride to WF after reading the pink/bastard letter. He could not meet the demands. He does not have Ramsey’s wife (a fraud set in place by Lannister) nor does he have Reek. He may not even know Reek is Theon. The mutiny and assassination attempt have nothing to do with Arya/Jeyne. It has to do with a group of men thinking that LC Snow is committing an act of treason against the Iron Throne by involving the NW in the matters of the realm. Firstly by granting Stannis sanctuary, then by allowing the wildlings through the Wall and then his intent to fight the Warden of the North. I don’t know how Martin is going to resolve this part of the story. Stannis was the only one who showed up when the NW sent letters that they were under attack by the wildlings. Stannis showed up before Jon was elected LC. The NW needed a new lord commander because Mormont was killed by his men. Stannis plans on purging WF if Bolton’s & Freys. After that he plans on returning to the Wall to set up his seat at the Nightfort. If that happens it will be the northmen, Stannis, the wildlings and what is left of the NW that try to protect the realm from the Others, the wights and this mysterious Great Other. Depending on the outcome of the many variables it looks like there are going to be three leaders --- LC Snow, Mance and Stannis, or not ---- facing off with the Others.
  22. Someone probably has brought it up before. This is the way I see it --- keeping it short. Marsh was not the brains behind the mutiny. Stannis shows up thanks to Davos learning to read, and Stannis smashes the wildlings. Mormont, the LC who died at Craster’s due to a mutiny, tasked Sam with reminding the NW with that which they forgot. Reminds me of the Others that were creeping around during the prologue of the first book. Bottom line for me is that LC Jon Snow did not send Mance to WF. Mance went there on his own accord. Jon sent Mance to intercept a girl on a horse. Missy Mel and her frequently misinterpreted visions and her imaginings and powders needed to get in there and mix stuff up a bit. A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. Four books leading to the last published 2011 book. Context is relevant. Given that Jon had no ambition to become LC ---- and that Maester Aemon & Samwell set upon the idea that Jon during the choosing should become LC I’m gonna have to go with the author has some sorta plan in mind ---- book one did set up the Other’s as the perceived enemy. Aren’t they the ones the wildings are running from? For me the biggest mind fuck of the ASOIAF never ending story is the pink/bastard letter. During these LC Snow traitor treads people need to remember that their favorite author not LC Snow decided that The Mance was to go to WF.
  23. I can only speak for myself. I really thought the WoW would be released. Personal opinion --- when WoW didn't come out in 2016 I lost hope. To add insult to injury, the thing that can not be mentioned in the book forum has delayed their ending for this never ending story. Thanks for your information.
  24. Actually the men of the NW aren't committing treason. They are not trying to overthrow the government of KL. What the men of the NW are doing is committing a mutiny. I'm merely checking to find out if you and I are thinking along the same lines. In story Jon Snow is the LC of the KW. When his men tried to kill him is that considered mutiny? Help me out with the awful part. It could be said that by LC Snow granting assistance to Stannis, one of the many self proclaimed Kings of Westeros, it is indeed treason against the Throne. Yet, it was Stannis who answered the call for help when the Throne did not. In the story the NW think the wildling/free folk are their problem until something prompts LC Mormont to think that the NW have forgot their purpose. Five books so please bare with me. Whacha tink the NW purpose was before they forgot what their purpose was?