Durran Durrandon

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About Durran Durrandon

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  1. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    Yeah, it's definitely less fun.but it is cleaner. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the dragon eggs aren't important, however.
  2. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    So, I have been trying to resolve four elements of Illyrio’s plan. First, he gave the dragon eggs to Daenerys. Second, it is clear that Illyrio and Varys intended to have the Dothraki invade Westeros. Third he tells Tyrion to he expected Danerys to die on the Dothraki Sea. Finally, he clearly intends on (F)Aegon ruling the Seven Kingdoms. Hypothesis 1: Illyrio is a skeptic. He think Danerys will die, because, well, it’s the Dothraki and also, because Varys and Illyrio are plotting to goad Robert into assassinating her to goad Drogo into an invasion. He plans on creating an alliance between Aegon, the Gold Company, and the Dothraki, as Aegon and crew will assist the Dothraki in naval transport. Drogo will get revenge and spoils. Aegon will get the throne and the dragon eggs will be gifted back to Aegon by Drogo. Problem: This doesn’t match up with how the Dothraki work. They would likely kill Aegon, and haul the Iron Throne back to Vaes Dothrak after laying waste to the Seven Kingdoms and the Golden Company. Hypothesis 2: Illyrio is a skeptic. He think Danerys will die, because, well, it’s the Dothraki and also, because Varys and Illyrio are plotting to goad Robert into assassinating her to goad Drogo into an invasion. He plans on arranging for Aegon and company to defeat the Dothraki at sea, where the Dothraki would be most vulnerable, possibly the only place they can be defeated. Aegon would recover the eggs and arrive in Westeros as the hero who just saved the Seven Kingdoms from the Dothraki apocalypse. If Daenerys lives, Aegon marries Danny to cement his legitimacy. Problem: It seems like an easy way to lose the dragon eggs at sea. Hypothesis 3: Illyrio is not a skeptic. He thinks Danerys will give birth to the Stallions/Prince Who Was Promised, and is familiar enough with the Qarth Moon Myth/Forging of Lightbringer continuum of mythology to expect that Daenerys should die as sacrifice giving birth to the Stallion/Prince. He plans on goading Drogo through the assassination attempt, then he plans on creating an alliance between Aegon, the Gold Company, and the Dothraki, as Aegon and crew will assist the Dothraki in naval transport. He will arrange for Drogo to die in the campaign, and attempt to maneuver Aegon into the leadership of the alliance, making him Rhaego’s regent until he is of age and hen continue on as Hand, giving us a well tutored and civilized Stallion/Prince. Problem: Aegon’s superior claim makes this alliance problematic. His issue would always be a threat to Rhaego. Hypothesis 4: Illyrio is not a skeptic. He thinks Danerys will give birth to the Stallions/Prince Who Was Promised, and is familiar enough with the Qarth Moon Myth/Forging of Lightbringer continuum of mythology to expect that Daenerys should die as sacrifice giving birth to the Stallion/Prince. It’s unclear as to how he intended Aegon to fit into this plan originally. However, by the time of Dance, he knows that he was wrong. Drogo and Rhaego are dead. Daenerys has hatched the dragons. It is clear that Daenerys is the Stallion/Prince (Mare/Princess) born on the Dothraki Sea, and as Illyrio says to Tyrion at the end of Dance Tyrion II, the “the dragon must have three heads.” He plans on marrying Aegon and Tyrion to Daenerys as the two other heads of the dragon. (I’m assuming that Illyrio is aware of A+J=T.)
  3. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    Except that we are given explicit text from TWOIAF stating that the Dothraki have am a prohibition against farming (cutting into the earth, which is a goddess). As for the connection between the Dothraki and the Ironborn, especially with the "We do not sow" motto, I agree that the similarity is striking.
  4. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    Who knew it was that easy?
  5. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    This is true. In fact, Jorah in Dance confesses that Varys warned him of the assassination attempt on Daenerys, which implies he did receive a letter when he visited the merchant captain. I just don't know how one buys off the Dosh Khaleen.
  6. Child of Ice and Fire: More harmful than helpful

    Hold on, if we are going to make a legal argument here, in a monarchy, can we ask who the rightful king is? Despite all of his flaws, it's Stannis, at least until Danny shows up. (Unless it is actually Jon.) So Stannis, warts and all, is Robert's rightful heir. He is the only person acting like a proper king and trying to protect the Wall from the Wildlings and the Others, and he is is going to war now to remove a lord (Roose) who was complicit in the murder of the rightful lord of Winterfell, Rob, in violation of guest rights and his illegitimate son who is believed to be complicit in murdering Rob's heir, Bran. Ramsey is not legitimate (Tomen is not legitimate and therefore has no authority to legitimize Ramsey). He has no lawful claim to Winterfell, and no one with legal authority to give Arya to him as a wife has done so. So Jon's big sin is that he has not interfered with an agent of the legitimate King, Melsiandre, in her attempt to rescue Arya. Even though interfering with Melisandre's efforts would actually be a violation of his vows. When he receives the pink letter, one of the requests, iirc, is to hand over Shireen. So, Jon can either fight, or he can hand over Shireen, who if Stannis is dead, is the legitimate Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, to a an illegitimate criminal. There is simply no way Jon can comply with the terms of the pink letter without committing treason. (And yes it is rather convenient that this legal argument dovetails nicely with what Jon actually wants to do.)
  7. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    Yeah, I don't know that Illyrio has a glass candle stashed somewhere to actually influence the Dosh Khaleen with, so I lean towards your second option of him being aware of the Dothraki efforts to "immanetize the eschaton" and taking advantage of it. (That phrase by the way, is always in the back of my head when reading this stuff.) My question about Illytrio is whether he is a skeptic who is merely attempting to maneuver his Blackfire Prince onto the Iron Throne or if he is up to something more esoteric.
  8. The Dothraki: Essosian Population Control Experiment

    I’m writing this and an addendum to the original post, because I’ve had several conversation with friends recently questioning whether the Dothraki ever really intended to expand beyond the Dothraki Sea or whether Varys and Illyrio ever really intended the Dothraki to invade Westeros. People tend to forget the detail from Game of Thrones, so here is the textual evidence. Expanding beyond traditional Dothraki conquests is Drogo’s plan, as stated in Daenerys VI. In this chapter, Daenerys attempts to convince Drogo to cross the narrow seas and invade Westeros, reminding him that the Stallion Who Mounts the World is to rule all the lands of the earth. Drogo argues that the earth ends at the sea. He has no intention of invading Westeros, but we then find out that he intends to attack the land around the Jade Sea. Now TWOIAF states that the Dothraki have never been able to push east because the three passes that lead through the Bones are guarded by the fortress cities of Hyrkoon. This makes the idea of going through the Bones to conquer Yi Ti questionable, so it seems more likely that Drogo is thinking of attacking Qarth and possibly continuing east along the coast of the Jade Sea. (Keep in mind Martin probably hadn’t developed the map in detail yet.) The point being that Drogo fully intends to expand east into areas previously not conquered by the Dothraki, though at this point he has no intention of going to Westeros. We can assume that in the lands around the Jade Sea. he will do what the Dothraki did to Sarnor, destroy the civilization there. He will kill all the fighting men, take everyone else as slaves, and burn down the farms and cities. Yet after this conversation, Jorah, assures Daenerys that Drogo will go home. It is unclear whether Jorah is just being wishful or if he knows about the assassination plan, being launched by Varys and Illyrio, at this point. We know from conversation between Illyrio and Varys in Arya III, that the breakdown of Westeros is occurring too quickly and Varys tells Illyrio that he need the Dothraki to invade Westeros sooner than expected, but Illyrio does not believe Drogo will “bestir himself until his son is born “. Then, in the next chapter, Eddard VIII, we cut to Robert railing over the news Varys has brought him, Daenerys being pregnant. Most of the small council agrees that Daenerys needs to be assassinated. We know the result of the assassination attempt form the end of Daenerys VI. Jorah stops the assassination, but the attempt is enough to spur Drogo into action. In a rage, he announces that he will “take his Khalassar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt sea, as no khal has done before . . . kill the men in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses . . . rape their women, take their children as slaves, and brink their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak.” This appears to be the result Illyrio and Varys were going for. When we next pick up with Drogo in Daenerys VII, he is leading his khalasar southwest through Lhazar, presumably on their way to Slavers Bay. In short, there is plenty of evidence in the text that Drogo planned on expanding past historic Dothraki conquests and playing his role in setting up his son as the Stallion that Mounts the World, whether this was conquest to the east as Drogo originally planned, or crossing the Narrow Sea as Illyrio and Varys planned.
  9. I'm not disagreeing. My point is that if someone is new to all this, it goes better to focus on the metaphors for a while.
  10. I've made several attempts to nut shell LML. I get the value of brevity, but it's hard. Here it goes. At some point something happened that caused the Long Night and messed up the seasons, so something literally happened, but to start it is best to take this all as metaphor.
  11. Damn it. I am trying to finish S-Town right now.
  12. Oily Stone: Plastic?

    I think Preston Jacobs is worth a listen for people who aren't familiar with him. If for nothing else, his 1000 Worlds Club series has gotten me to go back and read a bunch of Martin's old short stories. That said. I don't think Jacobs is correct about the story being set in a regressed word. I think Martin is borrowing from themes in his earlier works, and that is something that can definitely be appreciated from watching Jacobs' videos. At the same time time, revealing Westeros as a fallen technlogical world would do little to advance those themes. Except, that when you look at Martin's science fiction, it isn't particularly scientific. There is nothing scientific about the telepathy or telekinesis he presents in his stories. They go completely unexplained by science. The technology in his stories is just science flavored magic that doesn't explain anything. It is a vehicle for he themes he is exploring. So there isn't any reason not to switch to fantasy and explore the same things. Actually a feudal patriarchy is a great place to explore pacifism and feminism. It lays the issues bare, and he has done a fantastic job of exploring the themes. I think the major theme that will be the big twist int he end and set up from the beginning is the notion that the "others" are human (or were, which is repetition of themes from the 1000 Worlds stories) and that humans caused the Long Night at the peak of human civilization. However, it was a magical peak, and magic has been in decline since then . . . until now.
  13. How did Dany's death by childbirth theory started?

    I'm not sure if I am giggling over the phrase "a known hater of dany" or because I remember being annoyed by Mithras hating on Dany. MY heart is in conflict, amused, but in conflict.
  14. How did Dany's death by childbirth theory started?

    Lol, I saw a lot of names I recognized on this thread. I figured people would know what I was talking about.
  15. How did Dany's death by childbirth theory started?

    The notion that the mother has to die to give birth to dragons is built into the metaphor structure of the Azor Ahai and Qartheen moon myths. There was no way Danny was going to give birth to Rhaego the SWMW without dying,but since his sacrifice among with Drogos allowed get to hatch the dragons, that all flipped.