Dimadick

Isn't Petyr one of the decision-makers involved in distributing resources? Then that jape affects policy making. I am intrigued however by the idea of covering the image of the Night's Watch, since several characters do comment on that across the books.

The conversation between Alliser, Tyrion, Pycelle, Varys, and Petyr goes beyond the request. It includes a volley of insults, information on public reaction to the Watch and its claims, and ends with a Kingsguard and Bronn having to intervene to prevent Tyrion from being assaulted. Other than the length is it a particular aspect of the section which you find I mishandled or misrepresented. Have you any particular summary in mind? I would not call the article on Tyrion a model. In fact it has long frustrated me, but I keep away from editing articles on POV characters. *The History section mentions "Tyrion finds himself excluded from regular family life" and makes no mention of his rather positive interactions with his uncles and aunt. *While the sections on "Game" and "Clash" are detailed, some of the content is unreferenced. The entire paragraph on preparations for the Battle of the Blackwater has no reference, and the concluding phrase "Tyrion suspects that Cersei was behind the assassination attempt." has no reference. *The section on "Storm" is underdeveloped. His entire interaction with Oberyn is limited to two lines, his emotional confrontation with Jaime has one (unreferenced) line, and his escape seems entirely unreferenced. *The section on "Feast" is short, entirely unreferenced and speculative. "He is regarded by most... ". How do we know? *The section on "Dance" is not too bad, but misses a bit on key information. **The entire storyline of Tyrion deducing the identities of Aegon and Jon is not mentioned. The encounter with the Stone men is mentioned but without mentioning its lasting consequences. That it exposes Tyrion to greyscale, and he continues piercing himself for most of the book, looking for signs of infection. **"Penny joins the pair as they travel to Meereen" In the text, Jorah mentions that Tyrion insisted on taking the girl with them: " You were the one who insisted that we bring her" The "relationships" section includes information that should probably be in History and the book-events sections. At least to offer a chronological view of events and interactions. But it also has referencing problems of its own. There are five paragraphs on the relationship of Tyrion and Cersei. Only two short lines contain references. The relationship with Jaime contains three short paragraphs and only one reference. The section on his uncles is entirely unreferenced, and I am not certain we have actually seen Kevan be "respectful" of Tyrion. The quote section is one of the largest in the Wiki with 9 quotes (and 8 references between them). I mostly took this featured article as an example of what to avoid. The dialogues are often what give us the necessary, enlightening information on situations and characters, and the context of this information. I agree on not using a lot of direct quotes, and I typically attempt to paraphrase whatever is mentioned outside of the "quote" section.

According to the "Lokasenna", a poem where Loki accuses various gods of sexual impropriety, Frey and Freya were also lovers to each other. ""Be silent, Freyja! | thou foulest witch, And steeped full sore in sin; In the arms of thy brother | the bright gods caught thee" In the same poem, Loki points out that their father Njord had impregnated his own sister. Making Frey and Freya both born of incest and practitioners of incest. The mother of Frey and Freya is left unnamed in the text. Some modern scholars have suggested this could be Nerthus, a Germanic fertility goddess already mentioned by Tacitus.

Tullus Hostilius, as "Tullius" is a variant of the name. The king credited with destroying Alba Longa and absorbing its population to that of the Rome itself. I wonder, however, if the tale of the Tullys was influenced by the legend of another Roman king, Servius Tullius. According to the traditional account, Tullius had two daughters, both named Tullia. He decided to marry them to the two sons of his predecessor Lucius Tarquinius Priscus. The couples were mismatched. The meek, unambitious Aruns Tarquinius was married to the ambitious and ruthless daughter. While the proud and greedy Lucius Tarquinius was married to the meek and and kind daughter. Tullia "the Wicked" started an affair with her brother-in-law Lucius, who was closer to her own temperament. They conspired to murder their unwanted spouses. So ended the lives of Aruns and Tulia "the Good". Lucius and the surviving Tulia next married each other. Tulia "the Wicked" was reportedly not content by just marrying her chosen lover. She wanted to become queen. So, she convinced Lucius to murder the only obstacle for their cause, her own father. Lucius started bribing various noblemen to gain their support. When he had gathered sufficient support, he killed his father-in-law and claimed the thrown for himself. Tulia herself desecrated the corpse of her hated father and denied him a proper funeral. I wonder if Aruns served as an inspiration for Jon Arryn. With Tulia "the Wicked" serving as an inspiration for Lysa Tully. Though I have trouble seing Petyr Baelish as a man who buys the loyalties of others like Lucius. We haven't seen many people loyal to Petyr.

Her husband was Ahab, King of Israel (reigned c. 869-850 BC) and I am not certain why you consider him weak. His existence is confirmed from archeological research on the Battle of Qarqar (853 BC) where an alliance of 11 kings managed to fight the Assyrian army into a standstill and forced them to retreat. Ahab, one of the 11 allies, is credited with providing most of the war chariots of the alliance and a substantial number of soldiers. The Biblical sources itself, which negatively depict all kings reigning from Samaria, seems to feature Ahab as a soldier-king (Book of Kings 1, Chapter 20): "And Ben-hadad the king of Syria gathered all his host together; and there were thirty and two kings with him, and horses and chariots: and he went up and besieged Samaria, and fought against it. And he sent messengers to Ahab king of Israel, into the city, and said unto him, Thus saith Ben-hadad. "Thy silver and thy gold is mine; thy wives also and thy children, even the goodliest, are mine." [A long passage concerning an exchange of messages between the rival kings] "And it came to pass, when [ben-hadad] heard this message, as he was drinking, he and the kings, in the pavilions, that he said unto his servants, Set [yourselves in array]. And they set [themselves in array] against the city. And, behold, a prophet came near unto Ahab king of Israel, and said, "Thus saith Jehovah, Hast thou seen all this great multitude? behold, I will deliver it into thy hand this day; and thou shalt know that I am Jehovah." "And Ahab said, "By whom?" And he said, "Thus saith Jehovah, By the young men of the princes of the provinces." Then he said, "Who shall begin the battle?" And he answered, "Thou." Then he mustered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty-two: and after them he mustered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. "And they went out at noon. But Ben-hadad was drinking himself drunk in the pavilions, he and the kings, the thirty and two kings that helped him. And the young men of the princes of the provinces went out first; and Ben-hadad sent out, and they told him, saying, "There are men come out from Samaria." And he said, "Whether they are come out for peace, take them alive, or whether they are come out for war, taken them alive." "So these went out of the city, the young men of the princes of the provinces, and the army which followed them. And they slew every one his man; and the Syrians fled, and Israel pursued them: and Ben-hadad the king of Syria escaped on a horse with horsemen. And the king of Israel [Ahab] went out, and smote the horses and chariots, and slew the Syrians with a great slaughter. "And the prophet came near to the king of Israel, and said unto him, "Go, strengthen thyself, and mark, and see what thou doest; for at the return of the year the king of Syria will come up against thee." And the servants of the king of Syria said unto him, "Their god is a god of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we: but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they." And do this thing: take the kings away, every man out of his place, and put captains in their room;and number thee an army, like the army that thou hast lost, horse for horse, and chariot for chariot; and we will fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they. And he hearkened unto their voice, and did so. And it came to pass at the return of the year, that Ben-hadad mustered the Syrians, and went up to Aphek, to fight against Israel.And the children of Israel were mustered, and were victualled, and went against them: and the children of Israel encamped before them like two little flocks of kids; but the Syrians filled the country.And a man of God came near and spake unto the king of Israel, and said, "Thus saith Jehovah, Because the Syrians have said, Jehovah is a god of the hills, but he is not a god of the valleys; therefore will I deliver all this great multitude into thy hand, and ye shall know that I am Jehovah." "And they encamped one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined; and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians a hundred thousand footmen in one day.But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and the wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand men that were left. And Ben-hadad fled, and came into the city, into an inner chamber.And his servants said unto him, "Behold now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings: let us, we pray thee, put sackcloth on our loins, and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the king of Israel: peradventure he will save thy life." "So they girded sackcloth on their loins, and [put] ropes on their heads, and came to the king of Israel, and said, Thy servant Ben-hadad saith, "I pray thee, let me live". And he said, "Is he yet alive? he is my brother." Now the men observed diligently, and hasted to catch whether it were his mind; and they said, "Thy brother Ben-hadad. Then he said, Go ye, bring him. Then Ben-hadad came forth to him; and he caused him to come up into the chariot." "And [ben-hadad] said unto him, The cities which my father took from thy father I will restore; and thou shalt make streets for thee in Damascus, as my father made in Samaria. And I, [said Ahab], will let thee go with this covenant. So he made a covenant with him, and let him go." . A bit too old to be a temptress. The passage involving her assassination takes place c. 842 BC. At the time, her son Jehoram, King of Israel and her grandson Ahaziah, King of Judah were assassinated by a rebellious Israelite general by the name of Jehu. Jezebel wears her full regalia and goes meet Jehu in her last stand (Book of Kings 2, Chapter 9): "And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her eyes, and attired her head, and looked out at the window. And as Jehu entered in at the gate, she said, "Is it peace, thou Zimri, thy master's murderer?" (She compares him to Zimri, a previous usurper king who rose to the throne by an act of treason). "And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs. And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down; and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trod her under foot." There is no attempt here to seduce Jehu. Jezebel simply confronts Jehu and is then killed by eunuchs willing to switch sides in the conflict. Public humiliation? Lets see this passage, Ahasuerus is "merry with wine" (drunk) and decides to display his queen in front of similarly drunk, male guests. He gives an order for Vashti to display her beauty, while wearing her crown. She refuses, and Ahasuerus gets angry. He impulsively decides to end his marriage. Most commentators have noted that the display of a single woman to a crowd of men seems quite offensive. Particularly in light of the typical seclusion of married women from public view. Others have noted the reference to wearing her crown and no other mention of clothes. As early as the Talmud, Jewish commentators interpret the passage to mean that Vashti was ordered to appear nude, wearing nothing but her crown. Ouch. Ahasuerus, honestly seems to be the one wishing to humiliate his wife.

I have trouble seeing Jaime as Richard I. He might have the necessary looks. Richard "was said to be very attractive; his hair was between red and blond, and he was light-eyed with a pale complexion. He was apparently of above average height: according to Clifford Brewer he was 6 feet 5 inches (1.96 m)". But the adversarial relationship with his father is missing. Richard spend years fighting against Henry II: First in the so-called Great Revolt (1173-1174), then from 1186 to 1189. He was even suspected of having contributed to the death of his father. That is without even taking into accounts the persistent rumors that Henry added the fiancée of Richard to his own mistresses. In contrast, Jaime never fought against his father and seems not to have attempted to kill or depose Tywin. That doesn't really sound like Richard.

I don't know who Dan Carlin is. But the guy you remember dying in this way is probably Marcus Licinius Crassus (c. 115-53 BC). One of the most influential politicians in Rome, Crassus felt increasingly overshadowed by the military conquests and glory of his allies Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (106-48 BC) and Gaius Julius Caesar (100-44 BC). Seeking conquests of his own, Crassus led a Roman army in invading the Parthian Empire. The poorly planned expedition resulted in the Battle of Carrhae (53 BC), where 20,000 legionnaires were killed and about 10,000 others were captured. Crassus was killed shortly following the lost battle. There are a couple of contradictory accounts of the manner of his death. But the most famous mentions that he was captured alive by the Parthians. The Parthians then supposedly poured molten gold into his mouth. Their reply to Crassus' thirst for wealth.

The sanskrit term "ārya" means "noble". Both as a honorific title for the upper classes, and in having the noble qualities which make one worthy of reverence. The term was applied to persons of the kshatriya (warrior) class in the first sense, as they constituted the military and ruling term. The second use of the term typically applied to Brahmins, seekers of spiritual knowledge. Marking them as holy men to be revered. As an epithet it was also used as an honorific for female deities. For example, the goddess Tara could be referred in a text as Arya-Tara. For more details see the Encyclopaedia of the Hindu World, Vol. 3: http://books.google....qyO4gSG34GADw&redir_esc=y# In the 19th century, linguist Adolphe Pictet (1799-1875) suggested that the sanskrit term is related to "aireach", the Irish term for "nobleman". Which is still considered likely. The Irish term could also apply to chieftains. However, the Royal Irish Academy Dictionary noted that there was a secondary, and more rare meaning to aireach, signifying "freeman". That is anyone, including commoners, who possesses an independent legal status. See: http://books.google....q=ārya noble&f=false and http://books.google....ABQ&redir_esc=y There were probably other cognates to "ārya" and "aireach". Linguists have noted a number of related names turning up in Late Antiquity names. See: http://books.google.gr/books?id=h2l0-3P74XoC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=ārya+noble&source=bl&ots=ylQouPon5D&sig=npn8zVfwryvCZKO_6D64A_GC83k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tIx6UMKkNqyO4gSG34GADw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ārya%20noble&f=false and http://books.google.gr/books?id=G5W6vCO_pYUC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Ariobindus&source=bl&ots=8jXwebfusz&sig=IRpT1ygvFs4Hp8iwZsfZuas7nzk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DJR6UO5Sp6DiBNbegdAD&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ariobindus&f=false *Late Roman and Byzantine sources mention "Roman" generals and noblemen whose names are rendered Areobindus, Ariobindus, Ariovindus, Arivendus, and Areovintas. These are likely spelling variations of the same name. *Older Roman sources mention Germanic or Celtic leaders whose names are rendered Ariogaisus, Ariomanus, Ariovistus. They conclude that the term "areo" or "ario" likely meant "leader". And that the Romans having such names were Romanized Celts or Germanic people.

Those would be Lucius Septimius Severus (145-211, reigned 193-211) and his son Aurelius Severus Antoninus, nicknamed Caracalla (188-217, reigned 198-217). Septimius rose to power through a three-way civil war. He managed to outmaneuver Pescennius Niger and Clodius Albinus. He was essentially ruling through the support of the army, never particularly popular with the Senate. He was an effective military commander, credited with expanding the African borders of the empire and strengthening the border fortresses to the north. Both Hadrian's Wall and the Antonine Wall received repairs and additional troops. He eventually fell sick during a campaign against the Caledonians (in modern Scotland). He died in Eboracum (modern York). He left as a legacy a greatly enlarged Roman military (the largest numbers of soldiers in its history) but a debased coinage. Caracalla is today famous for granting Roman citizenship to all freemen across the Roman Empire. He gained his negative reputation by ordering the assassination of his younger brother, co-ruler, and rival Publius Septimius Geta (178-211, reigned 209-211). Making him a kinslayer. He then proceeded to slay various supporters of Geta, his own ex-wife and former father-in-law, etc. He increased taxation and forced the senators and other wealthy men to construct palaces, theaters, and other places of entertainment for him. All at their own expense. The soldiers experienced pay rises and better treatment. Caracalla was eventually assassinated by a man of his personal bodyguard, allegedly for a personal grievance. The Prefect of the Praetorian Guard, Marcus Opellius Macrinus proceeded to declare himself emperor. Adding the family name "Severus" to his own name. he was deposed himself a year later by the family of Caracalla. Kinsmen of Caracalla continued ruling the Empire to 235.

[quote name='Spirit_Crusher' post='141445' date='Feb 14 2006, 07.55']Another one,historical... In the late 15th early16th century(can't remember exactly and am too lazy to check on modern history book),one nephew to pope Alexander the 6th(Borgia pope) ,Cesar Borgia calle The Valentin,invited all the nobles opposing his expansionistic desires to one feast,and while they were eating,had them all slaughtered by his sellswords.[/quote] Sorry but wrong on several accounts. Cesare Borgia was an illegitimate son of Rodrigo Borgia, later elected Pope Alexander VI, and Vannozza dei Cattanei. Rodrigo and Vannozza maintained an affair from 1470 to about 1482. She was still attached to his household later though Rodrigo eventually moved on to younger mistresses. Rumors accused Cesare of killing his enemies by inviting them to feasts. But this involved poison and not sellswords. The Borgias gained a reputation as poisoners following sudden deaths of Cardinals and nobility that brought them advantages. Not too clear if they actually did the deeds or simply took advantage of the deaths to move in and claim the inheritance. Whether they were predators or scavengers in other words. You might be confusing him with Vlad the Impaler, Dracula: "Almost as soon as he came to power, his first significant act of cruelty may have been motivated by a desire of revenge as well as a need to solidify his power. Early in his reign he gave a feast for his boyars and their families to celebrate Easter. Vlad was well aware that many of these same nobles were part of the conspiracy that led to his father's assassination and the burying alive of his elder brother, Mircea. Many had also played a role in the overthrow of numerous Wallachian princes. During the feast Vlad asked his noble guests how many princes had ruled during their life times. All of the nobles present had outlived several princes. One answered that at least thirty princes had held the throne during his life. None had seen less than seven reigns. Vlad immediately had all the assembled nobles arrested. The older boyars and their families were impaled on the spot. The younger and healthier nobles and their families were marched north from Târgovişte to the ruins of Poienari Castle in the mountains above the Argeş River. Vlad the Impaler was determined to rebuild this ancient fortress as his own stronghold and refuge. The enslaved boyars and their families were forced to labour for months rebuilding the old castle with materials from another nearby ruin. According to the reports, they labored until the clothes fell off their bodies and then were forced to continue working naked. Very few of the old gentry survived the ordeal of building Vlad's castle."

[quote name='Jughead of the Round' date='Nov 16 2005, 00.41' post='16868'] Few things: "-Arya being close to the name Arha in the Tombs of Atuan. Arha means 'nameless one' which refers to Arya more and more. (Arya also may be going down the path in La Femme Nikita, about a female assassin)" Ārya (sic) is a word in common use in Persian and Indian languages. "The important Sanskrit lexicon [[Amarakosha|Amarakośa]] (ca. 450 AD) defines ārya thus: "An ārya is one who hails from a noble family, of gentle behavior and demeanor, good-natured and of righteous conduct. (mahākula kulinārya sabhya sajjana sadhavah.)" " "The word "arya" (in the form āriyā, آریا), in the modern [[Persian language]], also means "noble", "Aryan", or "Iranian" The word is both related to language and ethnicity and is found in various forms of boys' and girls' names. "Aryan" is also commonly used as a boy's name in various Indic languages." [quote name='The Vinsky' post='54287' date='Dec 12 2005, 05.03']Charles [b]Martel[/b] was the grandfather of Charlemagne, reunited the Franks and added Aquitaine & Burgundy to his realm. He also won the Battle of Tours (732), which halted the Muslims/Moors from advancing from Spain into Frankish territory.[/quote] The "Martel" in his name is actually his personal nickname. Meaning "the Hammer". Probably because of his reputation for decisive action. The Martells in the novels are prone to indecision rather than action. [quote name='Arvernian' post='71323' date='Dec 22 2005, 19.11']The more I read the stories the more convinced I begun that Robert Baratheon is a homage to Conan. Compare the way the two are described: both are tall and dark haired with blue eyes. Where does the name Robert come from anyway? Is it in fact a nod to Conan's creator Rober E Howard? And come to think of it Baratheon and Barbarian are very similar words. Both have a fondness for wenching, drinking and eating. Both took control of a kingdom that was run by a mad king. Both felt somewhat trapped by the responsibilities of the position. All the same I do believe Selwyn is referred to as the Evenstar of Tarth.[/quote] Actually while reading Robert's appearances in the "Game of Thrones", I kept comparing him to Conan as depicted in his very first appearance in the "Phoenix on the Sword". 1) By the words of the Cimmerrian himself: "Prospero, these matters of statecraft weary me as all the fighting I have done never did." ... "I wish I might ride with you to Nemedia. It seems ages since I had a horse between my knees — but Publius says that affairs in the city require my presence. Curse him!" "When I overthrew the old dynasty, it was easy enough, though it seemed bitter hard at the time. Looking back now over the wild path I followed, all those days of toil, intrigue, slaughter and tribulation seem like a dream. "I did not dream far enough, Prospero. When King Numedides lay dead at my feet and I tore the crown from his gory head and set it on my own, I had reached the ultimate border of my dreams. I had prepared myself to take the crown, not to hold it. In the old free days all I wanted was a sharp sword and a straight path to my enemies. Now no paths are straight and my sword is useless. "When I overthrew Numedides, then I was the Liberator — now they spit at my shadow. They have put a statue of that swine in the temple of Mitra, and people go and wail before it, hailing it as the holy effigy of a saintly monarch who was done to death by a red-handed barbarian. When I led her armies to victory as a mercenary, Aquilonia overlooked the fact that I was a foreigner, but now she can not forgive me. "Now in Mitra's temple there come to burn incense to Numedides' memory, men whom his hangmen maimed and blinded, men whose sons died in his dungeons, whose wives and daughters were dragged into his seraglio. The fickle fools!" 2) All epitomized on the accompanying poem "The Road of Kings": When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,<br/> The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;<br/> But now I am a great king, the people hound my track<br/> With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.<br/> The Poem is continued in "The Scarlet Citadel" and has the Usurper defending himself against "rightful" heirs: ''Gleaming shell of an outworn lie; fable of Right divine''<br/> ''You gained your crowns by heritage, but Blood was the price of mine.''<br/> ''The throne that I won by blood and sweat, by Crom, I will not sell''<br/> ''For promise of valleys filled with gold, or threat of the Halls of Hell!''<br/> </div> [quote name='Waterdancing Wench' post='78081' date='Dec 29 2005, 13.27']This is probably more an influence than a reference, and if a reference a very loose one, but the Young Dragon (Daeron I? all these Targ names get reused so many times I lose track) reminds me more than a little of Alexander the Great. "A conquest that lasted a summer" and all that. Anyway just wanted to throw that out there.[/quote] Actually more related to a historical misconception of Alexander than historic events. Alexander campaigned for about ten years, from 333 BC to 326/325 BC. The period 325 - 323 BC played more as an aftermath. His empire survived him by fourteen years. From 323 to 309 BC when several of the most powerful satraps declared themselves kings. Moving from a united kingdom to several rival ones. [quote name='snark' post='112264' date='Jan 22 2006, 05.16']Bran means "raven" in Welsh. In Welsh legend Bran the Blessed (called also Bendigeid Vran) was the son of the god Llyr. Later Welsh legends describe him as a king of Britain who was killed attacking Ireland. hmm according to one commentator on that site... Bran was attacking Ireland to rescue his sister who was being mistreated by her husband. [url="http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=bran-2"]http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=bran-2[/url][/quote] Said sister was Branwen, "Welsh goddess of love and beauty". She was married to Matholwch, King of Ireland. However her paternal half-brother Efnysien was deeply offended than no one had considered asking him of his opinion or permission for the marriage. He arrived uninvited in the marriage celebration and mutilated the horses which formed Matholwch had offered as gifts. Bran managed to save the marriage at the last minute. However in Ireland, Matholwch was free to take out his bitterness on his wife. Branwen was humiliated and treeted as a common servant. When Bran learned of this, he called the Britons to arms. His invasion of Ireland led to the mutual destruction of both armies. According to some versions Ireland was left with a population consisting only of pregnant women while only a handfull of Britons lived to return to their island. Branwen died of sorrow, having survived most of her family on both sides of the Irish Sea and feeling responsible for their deaths. On the other hand, the full name of "Brandon Stark" takes another meaning. The names "Brandon" and "Brendan" derive from Bréanainn, Irish for "Prince". [quote name='Spirit_Crusher' post='133293' date='Feb 8 2006, 13.50']Beric Dondarrion the renegade lord hiding in the woods and harrassing the troops of an unjust ruler with the aid of commoners,reminds my strongly of...well,ehr...Robin Hood! :lol: Obviously only 'till the storyline concerning that group does not take a more "metaphisical" path.[/quote] I was very amused to see Beric in the company of a priest and a minstrel. Robin Hood was accompanied by Friar Tuck and Alan-a-Dale. Friar Tuck is in most depictions "a fat, bald and jovial monk with a great love of ale"who "was expelled by his order because of his lack of respect for authority". He was already associated with the Robin legend in a play dated to about 1475. Alan-a-Dale the minstrel was added to the legend with love ballads dating to the 17th century. He nobly "rescued" fair ladies from marriages to older gentlemen. Both Thoros and Tom of Sevenstreams are quite similar in concept. Meanwhile Lem Lemoncloak is named for the color of his clothes. Which was also true of another Robin companion, Will Scarlet.