Sly Wren

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  1. Agreed. Agreed--though I do think Lyanna's disappearance is also tied to Tywin--that's who Rhaegar may be tied up with at that point. As for the bolded--one way or another, Rhaegar's playing against his father and has been at least since Duskendale. How he plays the side--on that, I agree he's likely to be very cagey and careful. I do think he was working with Tywin--but after all he's seen at King's Landing and with Castamere, he'd be a fool not to have contingency plans against Tywin. Just as Tywin seems to have had contingency plans in the war, too.
  2. A very fair point--from the perspective of a sane, non-vengeful being who hasn't been reanimated. But UnCat's none of the above. She's very, very changed. Just thinking that meeting might not be all that happy. Agreed--but it could depend on how much pull Sansa has on Robin, how much leverage she has over Baelish, and how much Bronze Yohn still wants to help Sansa. So far, Martin's taken care throughout the novels, and especially in Storm and Feast, to show us Sansa's growing "tool box" and the Royces' attachment to the North and the Starks. Seems like they really might have the leverage to pull this out. True--but Baelish really might not be calling the shots. One way or another, that info about Ned's and Cat's deaths from Lysa's confession is rattling around in Sansa's brain. When it lands in her conscious thought processes --Baelish may be losing his upper hand with alarming speed.
  3. Heresy 195 and the Mists of Time

    WHOA! That's a fabulous catch! And, to go along with the question of timelines (sort of)--that passage opens the chapter where Jon captures/meets Ygritte. Which sets up a potential parallel with the Night's King--he fell (fallen star???) in part due to a woman.Jon, however, chooses the Watch. And if you see a guy wearing a "The Night's King was the Fallen Star!!!" T shirt running towards you, brace yourself. That's @Voice. And he's about to hug the stuffing out of you. The quote above and the context of the chapter it's in fits really, really well with his "how Ice became Dawn" theory. Which, at least in theory, fits with the timeline questions on this thread. Hopefully. ETA: @LmL: I missed that notice--and HA! We're always friends. Unless you've been lulling me into complacency. And that quote is an excellent catch.
  4. Another thread suggested it was foreshadowing for Sansa marrying a Targ, and having a dragon baby like Rhaego - which depressed me a great deal, considering the candidate fathers. But I've got a better idea. Shortly before the quote above there was this: and before that: Poor Sansa! Anyway, she gets the bat-in-tummy feeling whenever Joff looks at her. Put this together with the theory that King Aerys fathered Joanna's children - and you get Sansa having a true premonition, a genuine fear of having Joff's Targ-blooded bastards. Which is all fine, because Joff is now completely out of her way. 1. I've got no problem with diversions--all of my threads seem to turn into sandboxes at some point. So, diverge away! 2. Very interesting--might also work with the idea that Cersei is a die hard Targ wannabe. And that's helped make Joff monstrous, regardless. And his children would be monstrous. But it's a tantalizing idea re: the literal Targ reference, no doubt.
  5. I was thinking that in her current state, Uncat might be less willing to listen to Baelish's arguments for why he didn't protect Ned and Arya. Might be VERY suspicious. Yes--but that would also apply to taking Winterfell for the Stark in their Midst, no? Oh, yes--Baelish has plans he's not telling Sansa. He's only telling her what she wants to hear. But Martin's made sure Sansa has leverage against Baelish if she can figure out how to use said leverage. So, it may not matter what Baelish wants, but what Sansa wants. And Sansa wants her home and family back--as much as she can get of them.
  6. But could be the most interesting episode of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy ever--first one to include dismemberment! Ah! Excellent! Makes Royce even more dangerous to Baelish. And makes me think again of the fact that Martin took time to tell us that Ned escaped from Aerys' decree to the Vale via the Sisters. Little details, but could e a set up for Sansa's going north by sea. Agreed re: Corbray--though if news from King's Landing keeps showing that place as increasingly unstable, Corbray might be bribe-able in another direction. I could see this. I do think that winged wolf is tying both Sansa and Arya to Bran--a "wolf" who flies in birds. Others long before me have argued that the Winged Wolf might be a role or an office--like the 3 Eyed Crow. And, arguably, the "wolves" who can shin change other animals would all therefore be potential "winged wolves." I struggle on the Harrenhal stuff--I agree that the place has to play a role--it already has, and seems like more is coming. But I struggle to make sense of where it's going. Which is probably mucking up my ability to follow you here. But I'm liking the Mad Mouse tie in. Interesting--are you thinking the Elder Brother's influence is mystical? Or that Sansa's influence on the Hound made him. . . more devout, as she sometimes is? HA! Poor Lancel. But it fits the "broken" tendency of those under Sansa's influence. Agreed--willing and maybe even somewhat broken. The Burned Men are probably just nice to her (in a limited sense) because of Tyrion. But all the others under her influence seem to be broken. And, as you say, willing. That would be very cool. Though I'm wondering if that's possible. Symbolically and practically, skinchangers only become "equal" with their animals by living on in them for the second life, right?
  7. I completely agree that we're missing big pieces of the puzzle. But I'm lapsing into bird-brain mode and am struggling to figure out what you're arguing with the bolded--so far, the Iron Throne only seems to have messed with Tywin's marriage plot, no? A VERY personal grudge match between those two. Are you thinking that the STAB alliance feared similar interference? Or something else that I'm missing in my bird-brained state? Very possible--though Barristan's statements are vague enough that the above is still just a theory until we get more info. If Rhaegar is insulting the Starks via Lyanna to get at Brandon for Ashara--that could work. And insult to a Brandon via a female relative in response to the Brandon's insult to another? Fits the Bael Tale, too. On the unbolded--I agree that fits really well. On the bolded--why do you think it says Rhaegar will stand with his father vs. just "I see you?" I like the idea that Rhaegar is playing both sides--fits with his tacit approval of Tywin's plan at Duskendale--Tywin and Rhaegar were both playing both sides there. I'm liking this idea a lot. . . .but I can see it the other way--the "I see you and will out you" way, too.
  8. A very fair point. I do think that the fact that Martin keeps bringing up some version of the Bael Tale or a Bael figure in every single novel so far is a strong hint that he's pushing us away from Dany's take on the roses. Though in unfinished books, more context is clearly coming and thus no way to know for sure. Though all that means is that you and I disagree with how up in the air the conclusion is at this point--which isn't much of a disagreement.
  9. HA! Yes--I doubt the Hound would be going to Boros--or anyone--for fashion advice. And I've been reading Boros' brooch in that moment as a marker that he's Cersei's (and possibly Tywin's) man. I agree the brooch is atypical--am now wondering if Joff might have ordered him to wear it. And am now imagining the Hound being forced into a makeover show. Not good. Good points! And in this scene, Sansa, too, manipulates Joff to get what she wants. Could be the Hound is trying to get Sansa's notice. But am also wondering if this might also be the two of them influencing each other in that warg-like relationship. . . . especially with the niceness to Tommen and Myrcella. Good catch! I'd been focusing on how Sansa hears from Lysa that Bronze Yohn wanted to support Robb. But seems like Sansa didn't believe that until getting confirmation. And, given Lysa was her source, waiting for confirmation seems wise. ETA: So--looks like Sansa's awareness of her assets seems to be growing slowly. And expect Bronze Yohn to be keeping eyes and ears out for info on the Starks and on Baelish. Which could spur him into action. I'm assuming Rhinestone must have its own access to the sea--though I'm basing that on the maps, not the books. We need to watch these guys. Amen--and even dangerous to Sansa unless she can see a way to use them. Agreed. Maybe--are you thinking of the "wolf with wings" stuff? I've been thinking that might be more a tie to Bran and the winged wolf. Skinchanging. Like what I think the Winged Knight was--skinchanging a falcon. Or are you thinking of something else I'm not seeing? Agreed--or under Northern friendly control. I can't remember where I first saw this idea--but it struck me, too. And makes me think of Sansa's signing to the Hound and her touch--like Jon putting his arm around Ghost. Something in that moment--Jon sees the world as Ghost does. And when Sansa sings and touches the Hound, he treats her as she wishes to be treated--sees the world a bit more as she does. Maybe. Or even has been permanently changed by him? Sansa's never really gotten over Lady. There's that stuff in the novels about animals being easier to skinchange if they've been "ridden" by other skinchangers before. As though there's a permanent change. I doubt Martin will even give us a clear answer to this. But the imagery around Sansa and the Hound in this vein is provocative--at least in my head. Nice! I'd forgotten that bit. So, he can shed some of his Hound self, but not his Sansa self?
  10. Oh! No--I am not suggesting that they know the Bael Tale. I'm saying Martin made sure we (readers) knew it. And includes parts of the context in every novel. Even gives us a Bael-ish who steals Stark Maid Sansa. And Mance, who followed a lot of Bael's playbook, loves the song, and "steals" Jon. Martin's made it clear what Bael's motive was. Made sure readers know. Might very well be that no one south of the Wall knows what Bael meant with that rose. But I'm pretty sure Martin intends for readers to remember. And that factor gives us info on what Rhaegar's intent was. A very popular interp. But given that Martin keeps telling us about Bael and Bael-like plotters in every novel, even before we actually get the Bael Tale, the idea that the blue roses and Stark maid elements are markers to the readers that Rhaegar's a political plotter with a grudge or a plan--that's gotta be considered. True. But given that we do know Rhaegar's been trying to take over from Devil Daddy for a while--at least since Duskendale--then the idea that he had something else in mind and that the Starks got the message and that's why Martin highlighted their reactions in both the novels and the World Book--that's gotta be on the table as a strong option. And interesting idea. Though given that the Tourney was planned, the idea that they were going to use blue roses anyway (it's right after a winter, after all--could be those were the flowers they could get--or that the blue roses were rare and thus showed off wealth) is also an option. In which case, the roses could well be a marker for readers, not necessarily something with known significance to Rhaegar.
  11. Exactly--the World Book writer questions why the Starks were upset, not everyone. And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king. Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth. World Book: The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring. So, the writer assumes it's a hidden message to unite, but then, looking at Stark anger, shows that interp just doesn't work. One way or another, something's very wrong with this crowning. True. But given what Martin's told us about Bael's intent with leaving the Blue Rose, seems like there's a good chance that the crowning was to insult the Starks. Or to tell them he knows what they are up to--and to back off. Or something hostile--Bael wasn't being friendly. Martin takes time to tell us that whole thing started as a grudge-match between powerful men.
  12. Amen--the idea that Rhaegar would go to all the trouble of the Tourney, let alone his and Tywin's willingness to get Aerys dead at Duskendale, and then lose his head for his cousin's fiance--no. Something else is up.
  13. Whoops! I missed this one--and I'm liking this idea. I'm almost wondering if it goes beyond "affinity" and into the "influence" we see between wargs and their skin changed associates. Sansa's not skin changing either the Hound or Sweetrobin. But she can influence them. Not slipping into their skins, but into their . . . reactions. Like the Hound's reaction to her song and Robin's love of Lemoncakes. It reminds me of that moment in Dance when Jon's listening to new recruits take the oath. The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men. Dance, Jon VII In that moment, Jon's not skin changing Ghost, but he's hearing and smelling as Ghost does. And then seeing all of the people as just "men"--not wildlings, etc. Jon's seeing people as Ghost sees them. Sansa and the Hound--arguably they change each other's perspectives a bit. Given that Martin does tie Sansa's bond with Lady and her wishing for Lady to the Hound--I'm wondering if moments like her wearing his colors are possibly like her. . . seeing things from his perspective. But that might be a bridge too far.
  14. YUP! Martin's having fun undermining both the ideals of the KG and the Night's Watch--or at least how those ideal are corrupted by corrupt leaders. I could definitely see that. He gives Sansa warnings, after all. Very early on. Maybe--and a very good catch. But I'm also remembering that when Boros Blount came to get Sansa in Game, he also has a jeweled broach: The next morning, the morning of the third day, Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard came to escort her to the queen. Ser Boros was an ugly man with a broad chest and short, bandy legs. His nose was flat, his cheeks baggy with jowls, his hair grey and brittle. Today he wore white velvet, and his snowy cloak was fastened with a lion brooch. The beast had the soft sheen of gold, and his eyes were tiny rubies. "You look very handsome and splendid this morning, Ser Boros," Sansa told him. A lady remembered her courtesies, and she was resolved to be a lady no matter what. Game, Sansa IV So, although I like the idea that the Hound might want her notice, I'm also wondering if the cloak has to be fastened with a jeweled broach under Joffrey and the Lannisters. On the bolded--I could see that potentially being his general struggle in life. His disdain of knights because of their failures (especially his brother) seems to predate Sansa. I could see his fascination with Sansa fitting into that past ideal/struggle. And in that quote you gave, it's clear he believes in that white cloak just as much as Arys Oakheart or Selmy ever did. And his struggle with his own belief in knighthood/knightly ideals vs. how he sees them played out. Can't be easy to think he himself has failed when he despises his brother for being such a failure. On the bolded--agreed. Her song seems to change that for him. And I agree that Sansa's perceptions are different--but perhaps not entirely/completely different. But she does see him as more of a protector than all the rest of the knights. Very cool catch! Yes--the knight who defends the Stark Maid from the lascivious singer at the unnamed, run down, isolated tower--he's a very interesting wild card. Using Mya to get his help. . . .I'd not thought of that. But given that Baelish has shown her that he has "three hidden knives" with the Kettleblacks, and that in the Winds chapter --I could see Sansa trying to find hidden knives of her own. A very interesting idea. A very good point--if Baelish loses his three hidden knives, that could very well undermine him. And the Kettleblacks do know things that could hurt Baelish--as does Sansa. And Baelish does tell Sansa in Feast that the Royces won't oppose him on their own--but the info the Kettlblacks and Sansa have could definitely get Bronze Yohn support against Baelish. So, are you thinking she'd hole up in Harrenhal, helping out the Riverlanders? Maybe. Though the Winds chapter does . Or are you thinking Harrenhal with food might be a . . . stop-off point before going home? Or something else I'm not seeing?
  15. I agree--I really doubt she's taking it on her own. I think that there's a good chance it will be like what Stannis did for the Watch--sweeping in and defeating Mance. And army sailing in from the south. Or even what Tywin did at King's Landing--sweeping in to save the day. And yes--I think Jon's going to part of all of that, too.