Sly Wren

Members
  • Content count

    2,739
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Sly Wren

  • Rank
    Council Member

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Female

Recent Profile Visitors

4,178 profile views
  1. Well--Oberyn's called the Viper. Perhaps he has brain-injecting fangs? In all seriousness--Martin took a fair amount of time starting from Dany's first POV to show that Dany's backstory has holes, inconsistencies, and clashes with other facts. Which could all be dismissed as character development--except that he took the time on it. Martin could just as easily have had Dany grow up with JonCon, or with Darry--someone who knew the facts and taught her well. Or some other option. He didn't--he has Dany's backstory be a mess with gaps. Not too unlike Jon's backstory has big gaps with multiple people guessing in the text at filling those gaps in. And so far Martin hasn't shown why he did that for Dany. Seems like we shouldn't dismiss it just yet.
  2. I do like this idea--though do we have evidence that glamours help people fight well? Or changes their personal abilities in any way? Mance was always a good fighter--so when he takes on Jon as Rattleshirt, it's not surprising that he'd still be a good fighter. Unless you are thinking that Rhaegar wasn't the one who fought at Harrenhal? Could be--though that quote could also work if he's afraid she'll spill the beans. Plus, if she's Aerys' by another mother, or (as I think is very likely) Rhaegar and Ashara's--she is a Targaryen. She is the "blood of the dragon." Just not his sister. And, since Dany agree with Jorah in Game that Rhaegar, NOT Viserys, is a dragon, if she is Rhaegar's kid, that statement by Viserys has some fun irony. One quick thing--in the quote you gave: That green sail--I actually searched for it. There are lots of mentions of colored sails in the novels. But green? There's Dany's memory and exactly one other mention: Godric knows that these colors for sails mean not just Lyseni, by Salladhor. The Same Salladhor who tells the Lightbringer story in Clash. Nowhere near enough info yet--but I'm thinking Salladhor may know something about Dany's past Not sure I'm following your train of thought here--are you thinking that the Targs would need a new influx of magical blood to be able to hatch dragons?
  3. Apologies for the delay--the forum kept throwing me off. This I could absolutely buy--though sending Dany out with those mind-numbingly expensive dragon eggs still seems like an odd move if you don't expect some return on that sizable investment. And without question, Dorne has ulterior motives. The Braavosi. . . . we need more data. But if they were trying to undermine Westeros--why do it with a dragon? Or are you thinking they wanted to use Viserys for something else? Huh. Well, I'm a world-class illiterate idiot. Good to know. I could buy some of this--especially since I'm pretty sold on Ashara's being Quaithe. No idea if there is a history of witches in House Dayne. But the idea that women and men can become powerful via magics--we've seen that with Mel--another shadow binder who entrances a powerful part Targ man into her prophecy driven crusade. And seen power in MMD, even in Thoros. Or--like Mel, she could just be really gorgeous and driven. I'm not ruling out magic to get attention, but seems like she may not need it. If she has magic like Mel, she could use it for other things. Mel's gorgeousness seems to get attention without any need for potions. Could be. And Dany's backstory has to be a mess for a reason. Martin had her first POV chapter full of stuff that later ended up being shown as off. But would Aerys need a gorgeous girl to tempt him via glamour? Seems like she could just . . . be gorgeous. I like this potential. . . . just not sure she'd need the glamour to get this. 1. I agree that Aerys and Ashara wouldn't fulfill that prophecy. 2. But any child or grandchildren of Aerys and Rhaella would be of the line, right? So, if Dany is Rhaegar's child by any woman. . . that should get it done, no?
  4. @Unchained--whoops! I hit post before I was done and now the site isn't letting me edit--sorry for the mess. 1. YUP!! On the song of Amergin. 2. His song is a song of unity--I am all in one. Even echoes Jojen's statement to Bran that the land is one--there isn't supposed to be a Wall or huge divisions. Or weird seasons. Unity is needed. I'm thinking the fight has been brewing for a while because of the divisions. But as for why it's happening again: when the Stark of Winterfell fights the Sword of the Morning Ned's dream, it's the ONlY time in any of the novels that anything is described as "blue as the eyes of death." Wight eyes and Other eyes are compared to stars. But ONLY in the moment of the fight, the rush of steel and shadow, does anything get compared to the Others' eyes. As @Voice argued--I think this is the moment when the Others rose again in power.
  5. Something's up with Viserys' creepy need to make Dany act like a princess. If this baby swap happened, really think Viserys knew. Or only one to survive the first year of Rhaella's daughter's birth--the death could have happened a number of places. Yes--the Braavos part is very interesting and frustrating to me. Oberyn's being there is easy--Martin's made a point of making Oberyn a world traveller. But why would any Braavosi, let alone the Sealord, ally with the Dragons? I can see why Oberyn would want to use the kids against the Lannisters and Robert. But Tycho Nestoris is NOT subtle on the anti-dragon stuff. If they really were in the Sealord's palace, what was the guy up to? 1. I agree that current Dany seems likely to have lived on the Greenblood at some point. 2. But I really doubt she's just a kid who looks right--if she's not Aerys and Rhaella's last child, she's Rhaegar's. The symbolism around her; the vision of herself in Rhaegar's armor; the dragons; the Undying--Dany's a dragon. And I think she's the daughter of the Last Dragon. Yup. And Viserys struggles to keep his temper and insecurities about this kid in check. OOOH! I hadn't thought of this angle--so, you're thinking Oberyn poisoned her when they lost control of her to the Dothraki? Or are you thinking they poisoned Dany earlier than that? Not sure I'm following you here--any chance you'd be willing to explain? NICE! I hadn't thought of this parallel. I like it. It's one of the reasons (aside from Barristan's Ashara musings and Quaithe) that I think Dany is part Dayne. Rhaegar seems to think he was the necessary dragon-producing ingredient. But only Dany pulls this off. The dragons died even with the Targs in power and the Velaryons out there. I think some other magic is in play. Maybe that's about bloodline, maybe it's about timing. But given Dany's seeing herself in Rhaegar's armor--I really think she's a Targ at least half. And that it's very, very likely she's Rhaegar's kid. A kid Oberyn may have little sympathy for--since she's not Elia's. And we know Oberyn will use/manipulate/shape his own daughters to further his plans. Back in a few hours to get caught up on the rest of y'all's posts.
  6. 1. My apologies for the delay in responding. 2. 3. I wasn't thinking of the TOJ fight, but I'm liking the potentials. Though I'm wondering if the TOJ fight applies less to what happens in Midsummer. Oberon doesn't fight for the changeling. He doses Titania and steals the baby while she's Bottom-struck. Sneaky, underhanded, clever--not knights having a straightforward fight. 4. Plus--Jon is a changeling in a number of senses--but he's not a "swapped out child." Or are you thinking he was actually swapped for another baby? If that's where you're going, who are you thinking he was swapped for? 1. on the fighting over the beloved--Shakespeare likes that trope from classical literature. And Dany's first POV in Game makes it clear that that's the story she's been told re: Robert and Rhaegar. 2. I like the Littlefinger connection--though I doubt he was in either physical condition or influential condition to manipulate Brandon. Rather, I think that was a Bael-ish like figure: Tywin. Who was Baelish before Baelish. And Tywin may have had an assist from Jon Arryn. 1. I had not thought of the connection to the fight with the Mountain--and am now feeling stupid. I have no idea how to pin down whether Oberyn's actions are tied to the weather issues specifically. Or if this is the long-view idea that Dorne and the North are "Fire and Ice" and thus innately tied to the weather issues. But the image of the fight with the Mountain--yes. Oberyn may be more specifically involved than I thought in the weather issues. I need to give this a think. . . . . 2. And I agree on the lemons--Martin keeps bringing them up only in specific contexts. Gotta be a reason. HA! Ashara is like a gorgeous purple inkblot for interp. And Martin just keeps bringing her out for no clear reason yet. I currently lean towards her being Dany's mother for a number of reasons--though I'm likely to change my mind at any moment. Barristan's bringing her up as looking like Dany comes out of the blue. Apropos of absolutely nothing. Same with Barristers' gossip revision: Cersei and Cat tell us that the rumor is Ashara had a boy named Jon Snow. Then, in Dance, we get a new rumor that the baby was a girl. Why the shift? Why bother? No idea yet--but the "Ashara is Dany's mother" take on the inkblot has to be open. Good point. YUP! Darkstar's gotta mean something. That name alone has echoes of the Fallen Night's King. and amen.
  7. 1. My apologies for the delay. 2. On the bolded: YUP! Especially since Martin chose Oberyn's name and put it in the Appendices 2 full books before mentioning Oberyn in the novels. 3. I flounder a bit on what exactly Doran is up to--I sincerely doubt he's told Arianne everything. The idea that he's got other options out there has to be on the table. He does this right from the start--bothers to put inconsistencies in her story when he doesn't need to. On the bolded--maybe--but it does seem tied to Dany's identity. Especially seeing herself as "the last Dragon" and Quaithe's "remember who you are." At least one option on "remember who you are" has to be "you aren't who you think you are." And re: Oberon.
  8. Where are the Daynes? House Dayne of Starfall is not at Doran’s big feast in Dance. Hotah mentions no one—no Allyria; no “A-named” second cousin like Alloysius or Aardvark; no mention of a steward or representative; no mention of Starfall. No mention of this famous, ancient house at a big feast where they toast the “Baratheon” king and celebrate the death of Gregor Clegane. Why aren’t they there? Darkstar’s just been blamed for maiming Myrcella. And Darkstar’s a Dayne—of High Hermitage, but still a Dayne. The Daynes of Starfall thus have strong motive to make a show of loyalty and civility—basically saying, “Oy! Listen up! Our idiot cousin does NOT speak for us!” Hotah makes no mention of their absence—so there’s no narrative focus to draw a circle for readers around Dayne-ish non-attendance. Which means this could be nothing. Still—really, really seems like a Dayne representative should be there. Much of the (f)Dany and “Dany the Dayne” speculation gets bogged down in questions of why a Dayne-ish “Dany” would leave Dorne, Home of the Happy Bastards. But if she’s a stolen changeling, that could potentially explain why a (hypothetically) fake Dany might end up with Viserys. Same goes if she was coerced away from her mother. And why the Daynes of Starfall are absent from Doran’s “Look! It’s Gregor’s Head!” party—complete with sugar skulls (worst Christmas candy ever). Pacts and Leverage? Oberyn ostensibly signed the pact with Willem Darry—whether or not that pact is “real,” Oberyn could still have been involved in a plot—supplying a replacement Dany. "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, [snip] n return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen." Dance, Dany VII Bottom Line: As stated above, this crackpot works under the assumption that it’s plausible that “Dany” isn’t the original child Rhaella Targaryen gave birth to on Dragonstone. If nothing else, Rhaella’s prior “child survival rate” wasn’t great: 50% of her prior pregnancies ended in miscarriage or stillbirth (poor woman). 30% of her prior pregnancies resulted in a child that lived less than a year (again—this fictional woman’s life makes me actually pity her). Only 20% of her prior pregnancies resulted in a child that survived past the first year to adulthood—Rhaegar and Viserys. Throw in the inconsistencies in Dany’s past, the fact that Martin took the time from the start to include the inconsistencies at all, and some of the other issues others raised long before me—is all of this definitive proof that current Dany is not Rhaella’s original child? Absolutely not. But is all of this good reason to keep options of “Changeling Dany” open? Yes. Especially given the prevalence of changelings in the novels and Oberyn’s name. Odd Potential Addendum: In Shakespeare, when Oberon and Titania fight, they are so powerful that their arguments affect the weather. Perhaps Oberyn’s actions could be tied to the Westerosi weather issues. . . at least tangentially.
  9. CRACKPOT: OBERYN, OBERON, AND A CHANGELING CHILD Very Short Version: Shakespeare’s Oberon is driven by his fight over a changeling. He uses poisons/potions to steal the changeling child and thus gain his revenge. G.R.R. Martin’s Oberyn is also known for tricking and poisoning people—though he’s much more deadly than Oberon. Given his very famous name—is Oberyn also involved with a stolen, changeling child? Oberyn has sufficient motive to seek revenge against the Lannisters and Baratheons. Stealing “Dany” and inserting her as a replacement for Rhaella’s (potentially) dead child could bolster Viserys’ ability to take back the throne. And there’s precedent in the novels for stolen, hidden, children. And children passed of as other than they are. This may help explain why on earth Oberyn has that name. And why the Daynes don’t attend the Martells’ big feast in Dance. Caveat: This crackpot works under the premise that it’s plausible that: Current Dany is not the original child that Rhaella Targaryen died giving birth to. Dany could be Ashara’s daughter, most likely via Rhaegar or Aerys. Oberon and Oberyn I can’t find anyone who’s gone into this name connection and its potential implications, or any discussion beyond simply noting the name connection. If you have gone into the name connection, let me know, and I’ll amend the OP. But Oberon is a very well-known character in a very well-known play. PLUS: Oberyn Martell is listed in the Appendices for both Game and Clash. But his name only appears in the text of the novels starting in Storm. Thus: Martin chose this name WELL ahead of Oberyn’s appearance or even mention in the novels. And Martin has clearly used external name references for his characters. IE: Arthur Dayne and his magic sword—echoes King Arthur and Excalibur. Ashara echoes “Astarte,” a fertility goddess tied to Evening/Morningstar. Martin uses names for fun—but he makes meaningful references, too. So what does Oberon do in A Midsummer Night's Dream? Changeling is Key While Puck’s mischief gets the audience’s focus, that mischief is driven by Oberon’s feud with Titania over a changeling child. Oberon wants the child as his henchman. So he seeks revenge on Titania for denying him the child. It’s all about power and vengeance. Titania wants the boy because he’s the child of her recently deceased devotee—an emotional attachment. But she also wants the child as her follower. Furthermore, Oberon drugs/poisons people to get what he wants—he distracts flower-drugged Titania with Bottom while Oberon steals her changeling child. Granted, Oberon’s “poison” is more silly than deadly. And Oberon and Titania reunite at the end. But still: poisons/potions, revenge plots—and a stolen child. How might this potentially tie to Oberyn? Oberyn is NOT over what happened to Elia and her children. He collects his bastard children into a weird cadre one could argue is a dark version of Oberon’s fairy band. (Tyene could arguably be a really scary version of Puck). He’s definitely known for poisoning people for revenge. And he’s willing to take his kids from their mothers to raise as his followers—not caring much for the mothers’ needs (except perhaps for Ellaria’s). And (per @Voice) we see Oberon’s interaction with “changeling” baby Tyrion: http://thelasthearth.com/post/56604/thread What’s missing? A changeling. So could Dany be a stolen changeling? Markg171 does a great job on evidence for Dany’s potentially not being Dany. http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany @Victarion Chainbreaker, @Rippounet , and others have made strong arguments on the Lemongate issue. Victarion Chainbreaker and others have been arguing for a while that Dany is Ashara’s child by Rhaegar. But Oberyn? It’s nowhere near a sure thing, but that name seems like a marker. And then there’s the poison—Dany’s “Darry” dies in a way that sounds like it could be poison. And the novels repeatedly connect sweet smells with death, corruption, and even with poison. She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. [snip] He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. Game, Dany I "Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her [snip]. "The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." Feast, Cat of the Canals If Dany’s protector was poisoned and she was taken, that could fit. Precedent in the novels for powerful men who strong-arm vulnerable women into giving up their children: Jon with Gilly’s baby. Jon does this to save Mance’s child—the same Mance with enough Rhaegar imagery around him to inspire “Mance is Rhaegar” theories. Oberyn with Obara and her mother. Possibly baby Aegon—If fAegon ends up being real, I can see Elia’s not being remotely happy that they didn’t also save Rhaenys. A Westerosi Sophie’s Choice. Ashara is a noblewoman—a far cry from Obara’s mother or Gilly. But if “Dany” is Ashara’s by either Rhaegar or Aerys and the Martells figured this out—they’d have hefty leverage against the Daynes to get them to do what they want. Anyone finds out that Ashara has Rhaegar or Aerys’ kid—big danger for the Daynes. Or—Oberyn could have flat out stolen the child, with the Daynes only finding out too late. And, given Jon’s role with Gilly’s baby and Ned’s fierce protectiveness towards Dany—Ned could have been involved in initially strong-arming Dany away from her mother and into the care of “Darry.” Or simply aware of it after the fact. And there’s definitely a recurring element of “changeling” children in the novels: Cersei passes her kids off as Robert’s; Baelish claims Sansa as his own and renames her after his mother; even how Cat hates Jon and how Robert was willing to see Rhaegar’s murdered children as monsters—Martin’s spent a lot of time showing us changelings in novels with an “Oberon” character. CONTINUED IN JUST ONE MORE POST
  10. Mostly, yes. Though we do have Cersei's attack on the Blue Bard with his hair scented in blue roses in Feast. Not to mention the Blue Bard's basic existence--he could have been anyone Cersei used--Martin made him Blue and Rosy. Which, like the name Baelish, seems more like a marker for the reader about what the roses are about. Family love is strong in a wolf pack. You're right--we're not far apart. I do think Rhaegar clearly ended up with Lyanna somehow. But I also think that her initial "disappearance" might not have been what we thought--we see that with both Arya and Sansa. And Arya ends up with a group that (at least in one scene) echoes the 3 KG at the Tower. Lyanna could have "ended up with" Rhaegar and Co. And I agree that Tywin was being cautious--but we also know from both Duskendale and the Red Wedding that Tywin will make really big, violent moves if he's set up someone else to take the blame. We aren't sure of this at all--which is why it peaked my interest. And it might even explain how/why Mance knows southern songs--the Dornishman's Wife--Martin makes a point of having Jon notice it. No way I can think of enough info to make this argument solid yet--but it would be a very cool detail with a lot of potential implications.
  11. Wait--does the text establish this? Yes, the roses grown in the Winterfell glass gardens. But Ygritte's tale doesn't establish that they ONLY grown in Winterfell. Only that Bael says they are the fairest roses THAT grow in the glass gardens. And that the flowers are rare. Is there anything that says that the roses don't grow elsewhere in winter--even if rare? And since the tourney was in the false spring, any reason why winter roses wouldn't still be blooming? Given the massive expense the tourney is said to have gone to, choosing really rare flowers for the laurel--that sounds like a flashy statement of expense, no? Fitting with the size and show and potential purpose of the tournament. Possible. Or--the story could be a marker for the reader. Like the name "Bael-ish." Or Mance's cloak. But it would be very interesting if someone from the south knew that tale. Are you thinking Mance could have come south with the Night's Watch brother and whispered in someone's ear? Something else? If she did so--I'd completely agree. But. . . given that the novels don't establish that the roses only grow in Winterfell, do we have enough to assume this? Or do you have text to support the idea that the roses only grow in Winterfell?
  12. Might depend on how much he has to burn to get what he wants. We know Tywin was happy to utilize Duskendale to get rid of Aerys. And Tywin's plan would have cost a lot of lives. And we know Rhaegar went along with it--Rhaegar was right there when Tywin said, "yes maybe it will kill Aerys, but at least we'll have a better king." Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. "He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar. World Book: The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II So, Tywin and Rhaegar were clearly agreed on killing Aerys in a show of "saving" him by storming Duskendale. That's pretty ruthless. And it's before Aerys stole Jaime from Tywin. And both Tywin and Rhaegar sit out the Rebellion until the very end. The idea that the two conspired--and that Tywin might have set himself up to double-cross Rhaegar at the end if necessary--yes--I could definitely see that. Though--even in that scenario, Lyanna could obviously still be the Knight--but the above scenario would help explain why Martin doesn't tell us who the Knight was, but does tell us whom the knight defeated--three knights from houses who commit atrocities for Tywin.
  13. Agreed--especially since at the end of Storm, Martin shows us flat out that he will go with the far less evidenced option: Baelish and Lysa killed Arryn, not Cersei and Jaime. Agreed--especially since Martin sets up the sniffling scene with Arya earlier in the same book. Arya is with a singer who sings sad songs for the express purpose of seducing women: "What, with only the boy here? I told you twice, the old woman was up to Lambswold helping that Fern birth her babe. And like as not it was one o' you planted the bastard in the poor girl's belly." He gave Tom a sour look. "You, I'd wager, with that harp o' yours, singing all them sad songs just to get poor Fern out of her smallclothes." "If a song makes a maid want to slip off her clothes and feel the good warm sun kiss her skin, why, is that the singer's fault?" asked Tom. Storm, Arya II BUT: When Arya-the-Wolfmaid hears a song so sad, her response is VERY different. She's just sad and homesick and missing her family, not seduced. "The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone." So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm, Arya IV NOTE: Arya is sad because of missing her sister. And Lyanna at Harrenhal would soon have been marrying Robert--had a bunch of stuff not intervened. And thus getting ready to leave her siblings whom she loved. Plus--note the phrasing: "Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. Storm, Bran II "A song so sad"--very similar to "so soft and sad"--and all in the same book. Just as in Game, after Ned says Lyanna was fond of flowers, Sansa's first POV show Arya's very strong affinity for flowers (which isn't romantic), in Storm, Martin has shown us why wolfmaids get sad at sad songs. And it isn't about seduction--it's about missing family. Seems like there's a good chance Martin put all of that in for a reason. Granted--Lyanna could still be the knight. But I keep feeling like the identity of the knight is a misdirect. The other stuff--like who was there and who was doing what, like the fact that the Knight's defeated foes all come from houses who do unspeakable things for Tywin--those facts get brushed aside as we all look for the Knight. Seems like there's a good case for looking at what else is going on in the story vs. just who the Knight might be. . .
  14. Agreed. But it's written in the same style--POV-ish. Not SSM-ish. And we have no confirmation to support the idea that it is objective reality vs. POV based interp of the people at large in Westeros. I tried once to ask if some info from the app reflected external, absolute truth or in-world assumption/assessment like all of the book--and got an answer that didn't fit my question at all. Which makes me think the app and World Book writers didn't want to answer that line of questioning--which is totally fine. But does leave me with no reason to think the app isn't in-world knowledge/assumption vs. objective truth. Plus we have Martin's SSM where he jokingly states that "who knows if anything in the World Book is true?" or something. So, until we get more data--seems like assuming it's objective truth has to be classified as an "assumption." Then why continue to leave that kind of info out of family trees in the books, etc? No--I think the World Book has some very interesting info--I've based some of my crackpot ideas on it. But so far, we've no reason to think the World Book and the app are any different from the books--they express in world knowledge/assumption/interpretation. So far, we've been given no SSM or other info to undermine that context--unless I'm missing something--which is always an option. Agreed that this is possible. And it even would fit if Rhaegar didn't love Lyanna and was trying to say, "Dude! Robert! I didn't hurt Lyanna!" But the idea that Rhaegar loved Lyanna is brought up in Dany's first Game POV. And right after it comes Ned's first POV where Robert gives his take. So, in the first 3 chapters (4 if you count the Prologue) of Game, we're given the two competing "interps" of Rhaegar's actions helping to incite Robert's Rebellion. Then, right after that, in Cat's first 2 POV's, we're given the two competing interps of Jon Arryn's Death--the thing that's going to stir things up and eventually help incite Robb's Rebellion: Arryn either died of a fever or was killed by Cersei and the Lannisters. So, in the first 6 chapters of Game, we've been given a dilemma in both instances: love vs. rape; fever vs. poison. And in the case of Jon Arryn's death,we don't find out until the end of Storm that it was a false dilemma--there was option number 3: Baelish and Lysa. Given that Martin shows us flat out in the Moon Door Confessional that he gives us false dilemmas about things that get Rebellions going, seems like we've got very good reason to be suspicious of the Rhaegar dilemma, no? Really, really could be a third option, hidden while Martin is actively boxing his readers into thinking it's only a dilemma--tricksy old turtle!!! No--we learn that many people believed he loved her. From sources we have reason to question. But only if we assume that he loves her in the first place. Which could still be true. Or if we assume he was trying to tell Robert something to exonerate himself: "Dude! I didn't take Lyanna!" But given that we know Dany knows Lyanna's name but does not register the name Rhaegar says--this is reason to doubt our potential assumptions that Rhaegar was saying that name. Very possible. Though that brings me back to my point about false dilemmas above: Martin completely fooled me with the Jon Arryn one. So maybe I'm paranoid. But given that he gave us another dilemma--love vs. rape--in the first 3 chapters of the series, the "reveal" of love vs. rape in the app could be as false as Ned's "figuring out" who killed Jon Arryn. Agreed--which is why Dany's not hearing "Lyanna" but "a woman's name" is so weird. Agreed--not at all a shock. Like when it's not a shock to the reader that Ned "figures out" who killed Jon Arryn. The shock is: we and Ned are dead wrong. (Bad pun--sorry) If it reveals Lyanna's name, you are right. But if the reveal is that Dany didn't recognize the name--which I think there's a great chance of--then it's a very consequential reveal. It's telling us that like the Jon Arryn mystery, there really might be a third option here. And that what we and everyone else in the country thought happened didn't. But why take all the time to show us how well Dany can hear and discern in those visions and then not give the name? That's where the "cheap" comes in. Martin could have had her hear "Lyanna"--and then had another twist. Or had her hear "something she could not understand." He didn't--he had it be "a woman's name"--and not list any of the names we know Dany knows. If it's just to hide things form the reader, there are better ways to do so--So, yes, I think if Rhaegar's saying "Lyanna" here, it's a bit cheap. But he told us in Game Dany I that people in Rhaegar's family think Rhaegar loved Lyanna. . . . that's a a pretty big clue that it's an option right from the very, very beginning. Agreed. Interesting--any evidence at all that anyone other than Ned or her family called her Lya? I agree that this would be a good option if we have any evidence in that direction. So far, there's exactly one instance of "Lya" in all of the books--and it's from Ned. So I'm doubting this one until we get more data. As for evidence that he loved anyone else--we do have evidence that Rhaegar might not have been particularly romantic at all. We've got him studying and dreaming--but nothing on his being amorous. So far, it all seems to be assumption open to interpretation, not verifiable fact. And as for feeling a need for another woman--who exactly is Rhaegar looking at when he says "There must be one more?" "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way. Clash, Dany IV Is Rhaegar speaking to Elia? Or to someone who could have been in the room with him? Someone connected to Dany? We find out much later that Dany looks like Ashara's daughter--but given Ashara's station, her being in the doorway of this scene would make a lot of sense. As clear a clue as the blatant "Rhaegar either loved or raped Lyanna" dilemma that we are given in the first 3 chapters of Game? No--but then the "Baelish and Lysa" option was MUCH less clear than the "fever vs. Lannister poison" version of Arryn's death. Bottom line: Rhaegar could absolutely being saying Lyanna's name. And could be saying it for a number of reasons. But it just isn't confirmed yet. Not with the caveats Martin himself has put on the app and the World Book--not to mention the novels themselves--and their ability to show objective truth vs. in world assumptions and interpretations.