Sly Wren

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  1. Mostly, yes. Though we do have Cersei's attack on the Blue Bard with his hair scented in blue roses in Feast. Not to mention the Blue Bard's basic existence--he could have been anyone Cersei used--Martin made him Blue and Rosy. Which, like the name Baelish, seems more like a marker for the reader about what the roses are about. Family love is strong in a wolf pack. You're right--we're not far apart. I do think Rhaegar clearly ended up with Lyanna somehow. But I also think that her initial "disappearance" might not have been what we thought--we see that with both Arya and Sansa. And Arya ends up with a group that (at least in one scene) echoes the 3 KG at the Tower. Lyanna could have "ended up with" Rhaegar and Co. And I agree that Tywin was being cautious--but we also know from both Duskendale and the Red Wedding that Tywin will make really big, violent moves if he's set up someone else to take the blame. We aren't sure of this at all--which is why it peaked my interest. And it might even explain how/why Mance knows southern songs--the Dornishman's Wife--Martin makes a point of having Jon notice it. No way I can think of enough info to make this argument solid yet--but it would be a very cool detail with a lot of potential implications.
  2. Wait--does the text establish this? Yes, the roses grown in the Winterfell glass gardens. But Ygritte's tale doesn't establish that they ONLY grown in Winterfell. Only that Bael says they are the fairest roses THAT grow in the glass gardens. And that the flowers are rare. Is there anything that says that the roses don't grow elsewhere in winter--even if rare? And since the tourney was in the false spring, any reason why winter roses wouldn't still be blooming? Given the massive expense the tourney is said to have gone to, choosing really rare flowers for the laurel--that sounds like a flashy statement of expense, no? Fitting with the size and show and potential purpose of the tournament. Possible. Or--the story could be a marker for the reader. Like the name "Bael-ish." Or Mance's cloak. But it would be very interesting if someone from the south knew that tale. Are you thinking Mance could have come south with the Night's Watch brother and whispered in someone's ear? Something else? If she did so--I'd completely agree. But. . . given that the novels don't establish that the roses only grow in Winterfell, do we have enough to assume this? Or do you have text to support the idea that the roses only grow in Winterfell?
  3. Might depend on how much he has to burn to get what he wants. We know Tywin was happy to utilize Duskendale to get rid of Aerys. And Tywin's plan would have cost a lot of lives. And we know Rhaegar went along with it--Rhaegar was right there when Tywin said, "yes maybe it will kill Aerys, but at least we'll have a better king." Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. "He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar. World Book: The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II So, Tywin and Rhaegar were clearly agreed on killing Aerys in a show of "saving" him by storming Duskendale. That's pretty ruthless. And it's before Aerys stole Jaime from Tywin. And both Tywin and Rhaegar sit out the Rebellion until the very end. The idea that the two conspired--and that Tywin might have set himself up to double-cross Rhaegar at the end if necessary--yes--I could definitely see that. Though--even in that scenario, Lyanna could obviously still be the Knight--but the above scenario would help explain why Martin doesn't tell us who the Knight was, but does tell us whom the knight defeated--three knights from houses who commit atrocities for Tywin.
  4. Agreed--especially since at the end of Storm, Martin shows us flat out that he will go with the far less evidenced option: Baelish and Lysa killed Arryn, not Cersei and Jaime. Agreed--especially since Martin sets up the sniffling scene with Arya earlier in the same book. Arya is with a singer who sings sad songs for the express purpose of seducing women: "What, with only the boy here? I told you twice, the old woman was up to Lambswold helping that Fern birth her babe. And like as not it was one o' you planted the bastard in the poor girl's belly." He gave Tom a sour look. "You, I'd wager, with that harp o' yours, singing all them sad songs just to get poor Fern out of her smallclothes." "If a song makes a maid want to slip off her clothes and feel the good warm sun kiss her skin, why, is that the singer's fault?" asked Tom. Storm, Arya II BUT: When Arya-the-Wolfmaid hears a song so sad, her response is VERY different. She's just sad and homesick and missing her family, not seduced. "The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone." So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm, Arya IV NOTE: Arya is sad because of missing her sister. And Lyanna at Harrenhal would soon have been marrying Robert--had a bunch of stuff not intervened. And thus getting ready to leave her siblings whom she loved. Plus--note the phrasing: "Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. Storm, Bran II "A song so sad"--very similar to "so soft and sad"--and all in the same book. Just as in Game, after Ned says Lyanna was fond of flowers, Sansa's first POV show Arya's very strong affinity for flowers (which isn't romantic), in Storm, Martin has shown us why wolfmaids get sad at sad songs. And it isn't about seduction--it's about missing family. Seems like there's a good chance Martin put all of that in for a reason. Granted--Lyanna could still be the knight. But I keep feeling like the identity of the knight is a misdirect. The other stuff--like who was there and who was doing what, like the fact that the Knight's defeated foes all come from houses who do unspeakable things for Tywin--those facts get brushed aside as we all look for the Knight. Seems like there's a good case for looking at what else is going on in the story vs. just who the Knight might be. . .
  5. Agreed. But it's written in the same style--POV-ish. Not SSM-ish. And we have no confirmation to support the idea that it is objective reality vs. POV based interp of the people at large in Westeros. I tried once to ask if some info from the app reflected external, absolute truth or in-world assumption/assessment like all of the book--and got an answer that didn't fit my question at all. Which makes me think the app and World Book writers didn't want to answer that line of questioning--which is totally fine. But does leave me with no reason to think the app isn't in-world knowledge/assumption vs. objective truth. Plus we have Martin's SSM where he jokingly states that "who knows if anything in the World Book is true?" or something. So, until we get more data--seems like assuming it's objective truth has to be classified as an "assumption." Then why continue to leave that kind of info out of family trees in the books, etc? No--I think the World Book has some very interesting info--I've based some of my crackpot ideas on it. But so far, we've no reason to think the World Book and the app are any different from the books--they express in world knowledge/assumption/interpretation. So far, we've been given no SSM or other info to undermine that context--unless I'm missing something--which is always an option. Agreed that this is possible. And it even would fit if Rhaegar didn't love Lyanna and was trying to say, "Dude! Robert! I didn't hurt Lyanna!" But the idea that Rhaegar loved Lyanna is brought up in Dany's first Game POV. And right after it comes Ned's first POV where Robert gives his take. So, in the first 3 chapters (4 if you count the Prologue) of Game, we're given the two competing "interps" of Rhaegar's actions helping to incite Robert's Rebellion. Then, right after that, in Cat's first 2 POV's, we're given the two competing interps of Jon Arryn's Death--the thing that's going to stir things up and eventually help incite Robb's Rebellion: Arryn either died of a fever or was killed by Cersei and the Lannisters. So, in the first 6 chapters of Game, we've been given a dilemma in both instances: love vs. rape; fever vs. poison. And in the case of Jon Arryn's death,we don't find out until the end of Storm that it was a false dilemma--there was option number 3: Baelish and Lysa. Given that Martin shows us flat out in the Moon Door Confessional that he gives us false dilemmas about things that get Rebellions going, seems like we've got very good reason to be suspicious of the Rhaegar dilemma, no? Really, really could be a third option, hidden while Martin is actively boxing his readers into thinking it's only a dilemma--tricksy old turtle!!! No--we learn that many people believed he loved her. From sources we have reason to question. But only if we assume that he loves her in the first place. Which could still be true. Or if we assume he was trying to tell Robert something to exonerate himself: "Dude! I didn't take Lyanna!" But given that we know Dany knows Lyanna's name but does not register the name Rhaegar says--this is reason to doubt our potential assumptions that Rhaegar was saying that name. Very possible. Though that brings me back to my point about false dilemmas above: Martin completely fooled me with the Jon Arryn one. So maybe I'm paranoid. But given that he gave us another dilemma--love vs. rape--in the first 3 chapters of the series, the "reveal" of love vs. rape in the app could be as false as Ned's "figuring out" who killed Jon Arryn. Agreed--which is why Dany's not hearing "Lyanna" but "a woman's name" is so weird. Agreed--not at all a shock. Like when it's not a shock to the reader that Ned "figures out" who killed Jon Arryn. The shock is: we and Ned are dead wrong. (Bad pun--sorry) If it reveals Lyanna's name, you are right. But if the reveal is that Dany didn't recognize the name--which I think there's a great chance of--then it's a very consequential reveal. It's telling us that like the Jon Arryn mystery, there really might be a third option here. And that what we and everyone else in the country thought happened didn't. But why take all the time to show us how well Dany can hear and discern in those visions and then not give the name? That's where the "cheap" comes in. Martin could have had her hear "Lyanna"--and then had another twist. Or had her hear "something she could not understand." He didn't--he had it be "a woman's name"--and not list any of the names we know Dany knows. If it's just to hide things form the reader, there are better ways to do so--So, yes, I think if Rhaegar's saying "Lyanna" here, it's a bit cheap. But he told us in Game Dany I that people in Rhaegar's family think Rhaegar loved Lyanna. . . . that's a a pretty big clue that it's an option right from the very, very beginning. Agreed. Interesting--any evidence at all that anyone other than Ned or her family called her Lya? I agree that this would be a good option if we have any evidence in that direction. So far, there's exactly one instance of "Lya" in all of the books--and it's from Ned. So I'm doubting this one until we get more data. As for evidence that he loved anyone else--we do have evidence that Rhaegar might not have been particularly romantic at all. We've got him studying and dreaming--but nothing on his being amorous. So far, it all seems to be assumption open to interpretation, not verifiable fact. And as for feeling a need for another woman--who exactly is Rhaegar looking at when he says "There must be one more?" "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way. Clash, Dany IV Is Rhaegar speaking to Elia? Or to someone who could have been in the room with him? Someone connected to Dany? We find out much later that Dany looks like Ashara's daughter--but given Ashara's station, her being in the doorway of this scene would make a lot of sense. As clear a clue as the blatant "Rhaegar either loved or raped Lyanna" dilemma that we are given in the first 3 chapters of Game? No--but then the "Baelish and Lysa" option was MUCH less clear than the "fever vs. Lannister poison" version of Arryn's death. Bottom line: Rhaegar could absolutely being saying Lyanna's name. And could be saying it for a number of reasons. But it just isn't confirmed yet. Not with the caveats Martin himself has put on the app and the World Book--not to mention the novels themselves--and their ability to show objective truth vs. in world assumptions and interpretations.
  6. I'm all for tinfoil. Though I do think there's a really good chance that prince in the water is Rhaegar. Same with the scene with naming Aegon. Which may disqualify me for tinfoil props. But I do think WHO Rhaegar may be looking at in the "naming" scene is interesting. Dany says "as if" looking at her, Or something to that effect. Who might Rhaegar have been looking at in that moment? Who might be in the room with him an Elia for who that statement would be relevant? Lots of potential options. But I think the one tied to Dany might work--Elia's lady-in-waiting. The woman whose daughter Barristan thinks Dany looks like. The woman potentially alluded to as throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died--Ashara Dayne. I think there's a really good chance that's who was in the room with Elia and Rhaegar. And whom Rhaegar looked to for his 3rd head. Interesting, . . .any chance you'd elaborate?
  7. Oh--I'm not asserting I know which maester is the narrator. Sorry if I gave that impression. I'm going off of Martin's SSMs--that the app has the info that didn't fit into the World Book. Which is a POV based worked--just like the novels. And another SSM where Martin basically says "who knows if anything in the World Book is true?" Which again seems to stress the POV nature of all that info. Plus, that app entry is written kind of like the books--POV-ish. Not SSM-ish. My apologies for making up adjectives.
  8. Hey! Congratulations on another great one! *applause* I've had to be away for a quite while and am thus very behind. But the basic idea of AA or whomever he might be based on going into the weirwood--or being sacrificed to the weirwoods--makes a fair amount of sense to me. Back when I've had time to get caught up.
  9. I agree that there's a good chance that Dany's vision has a good chance of "being true." But the vision doesn't say what "woman's name" the prince said. The app entry chooses the name. And the entry is written in a POV for the Maester who was writing this book for the king who killed Rhaegar in revenge for Lyanna. That POV should make us wary. It seems likely to be true that Rhaegar said a woman's name. But the very fact that Dany does;t say which name makes the "Lyanna" option suspect. We find out in Storm that Dany knows Lyanna's name really, really well. "But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" Storm, Dany IV Dany knows the story, has thought about why it happened, and volunteers the name herself. She knows that name. And she knows Elia's name really well, too--she's been thinking it since her first POV in Game. So why does she only hear "a woman's" name? 1. Could be Martin's just being really cheap--Dany heard and recognized the name, but didn't respond to this very important name at all. Possible--but cheap. 2. Could be somehow the "name" threaded the needle between being perceptible as a woman's name but not being perceptible for a specific name. But in the visions, it's repeatedly shown that Dany can discern words and phrases she's never heard before. She can hear whispers. And even if she's assuming it was Lyanna's name--why wouldn't she think that? Again--this option is possible--but seems undermined by the context of how Dany understands so much else in her visions. 3. Or--the name isn't one she recognizes. Which would leave out both Lyanna and Elia. That's why it just registers as "a woman's name"--it isn't a name that matters to her. Or doesn't matter yet. All of the above options are possible. And all would be consistent with Robert wanting to believe that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name after Robert killed him--Robert's need for vengeance fantasy is pretty hefty. But I think in context of the visions themselves, option #3 has a lot of credibility. It would make a lot of sense. HA! You ninjaed me! Interesting--I kind of like this. And I do think there's a parallel between Ned's killing Lady and and Ned's memory of Lyanna's death. The idea of those sacrifices matching makes some sense. I do think that the idea that Rhaegar's saying a name may have something to do with Robb's and Jon's saying their direwolves' names. I think there's a good chance that he's saying the name of the mother of his "third head"--his next self--his looking like he's looking at Dany when he says "there must be one more." Not the same as potential life in a direwolf, but would make a lot of sense. To me at least.
  10. Agreed. Agreed--though I do think Lyanna's disappearance is also tied to Tywin--that's who Rhaegar may be tied up with at that point. As for the bolded--one way or another, Rhaegar's playing against his father and has been at least since Duskendale. How he plays the side--on that, I agree he's likely to be very cagey and careful. I do think he was working with Tywin--but after all he's seen at King's Landing and with Castamere, he'd be a fool not to have contingency plans against Tywin. Just as Tywin seems to have had contingency plans in the war, too.
  11. A very fair point--from the perspective of a sane, non-vengeful being who hasn't been reanimated. But UnCat's none of the above. She's very, very changed. Just thinking that meeting might not be all that happy. Agreed--but it could depend on how much pull Sansa has on Robin, how much leverage she has over Baelish, and how much Bronze Yohn still wants to help Sansa. So far, Martin's taken care throughout the novels, and especially in Storm and Feast, to show us Sansa's growing "tool box" and the Royces' attachment to the North and the Starks. Seems like they really might have the leverage to pull this out. True--but Baelish really might not be calling the shots. One way or another, that info about Ned's and Cat's deaths from Lysa's confession is rattling around in Sansa's brain. When it lands in her conscious thought processes --Baelish may be losing his upper hand with alarming speed.
  12. WHOA! That's a fabulous catch! And, to go along with the question of timelines (sort of)--that passage opens the chapter where Jon captures/meets Ygritte. Which sets up a potential parallel with the Night's King--he fell (fallen star???) in part due to a woman.Jon, however, chooses the Watch. And if you see a guy wearing a "The Night's King was the Fallen Star!!!" T shirt running towards you, brace yourself. That's @Voice. And he's about to hug the stuffing out of you. The quote above and the context of the chapter it's in fits really, really well with his "how Ice became Dawn" theory. Which, at least in theory, fits with the timeline questions on this thread. Hopefully. ETA: @LmL: I missed that notice--and HA! We're always friends. Unless you've been lulling me into complacency. And that quote is an excellent catch.
  13. Another thread suggested it was foreshadowing for Sansa marrying a Targ, and having a dragon baby like Rhaego - which depressed me a great deal, considering the candidate fathers. But I've got a better idea. Shortly before the quote above there was this: and before that: Poor Sansa! Anyway, she gets the bat-in-tummy feeling whenever Joff looks at her. Put this together with the theory that King Aerys fathered Joanna's children - and you get Sansa having a true premonition, a genuine fear of having Joff's Targ-blooded bastards. Which is all fine, because Joff is now completely out of her way. 1. I've got no problem with diversions--all of my threads seem to turn into sandboxes at some point. So, diverge away! 2. Very interesting--might also work with the idea that Cersei is a die hard Targ wannabe. And that's helped make Joff monstrous, regardless. And his children would be monstrous. But it's a tantalizing idea re: the literal Targ reference, no doubt.
  14. I was thinking that in her current state, Uncat might be less willing to listen to Baelish's arguments for why he didn't protect Ned and Arya. Might be VERY suspicious. Yes--but that would also apply to taking Winterfell for the Stark in their Midst, no? Oh, yes--Baelish has plans he's not telling Sansa. He's only telling her what she wants to hear. But Martin's made sure Sansa has leverage against Baelish if she can figure out how to use said leverage. So, it may not matter what Baelish wants, but what Sansa wants. And Sansa wants her home and family back--as much as she can get of them.
  15. But could be the most interesting episode of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy ever--first one to include dismemberment! Ah! Excellent! Makes Royce even more dangerous to Baelish. And makes me think again of the fact that Martin took time to tell us that Ned escaped from Aerys' decree to the Vale via the Sisters. Little details, but could e a set up for Sansa's going north by sea. Agreed re: Corbray--though if news from King's Landing keeps showing that place as increasingly unstable, Corbray might be bribe-able in another direction. I could see this. I do think that winged wolf is tying both Sansa and Arya to Bran--a "wolf" who flies in birds. Others long before me have argued that the Winged Wolf might be a role or an office--like the 3 Eyed Crow. And, arguably, the "wolves" who can shin change other animals would all therefore be potential "winged wolves." I struggle on the Harrenhal stuff--I agree that the place has to play a role--it already has, and seems like more is coming. But I struggle to make sense of where it's going. Which is probably mucking up my ability to follow you here. But I'm liking the Mad Mouse tie in. Interesting--are you thinking the Elder Brother's influence is mystical? Or that Sansa's influence on the Hound made him. . . more devout, as she sometimes is? HA! Poor Lancel. But it fits the "broken" tendency of those under Sansa's influence. Agreed--willing and maybe even somewhat broken. The Burned Men are probably just nice to her (in a limited sense) because of Tyrion. But all the others under her influence seem to be broken. And, as you say, willing. That would be very cool. Though I'm wondering if that's possible. Symbolically and practically, skinchangers only become "equal" with their animals by living on in them for the second life, right?