Visceral Varys

The only future I see for Stannis is a BBQ named irony hosted by Dany and her dragons. If he makes it that far.

Yes. In both examples the faith is rigid without room for empathy or gray areas of human nature. This never works. Both are doomed. That is interesting about Stannis in the book. To me that proves his unyeilding ambition. He doesn't truly believe but he is willing to use the faith to his own advantage? Egads. But it may not go that direction in the book.

So, just extrapilating this out here, let's say Stannis gets the throne. Does he solve every issue with a sacrafice to the Lord of Light? Crops didn't come in - Burn a couple kids from the farmers family? It wouldn't stop. It's frustrating the change in his character but I think the message here is the evils of blind faith. Sometimes our favorite characters are sacrificed to make a broader point. in the end he can't succeed because he commited the highest of evil acts for his ambition. This may not be how it ends in the books but I feel it works on the show. Of course I could have done without watching Shireen burn. I turned the sound off and closed my eyes. Just a note: Too bad Walder Frey isn't ambitious because he has enough offspring to keep that bastard Flame God fed.

I like it.

All very good points! What though does killing Jon accomplish now that the deed is done? It would have made more sense for it to be done beforehand thereby stopping his mission to the north. So if it Ollie acting on his own it is revenge and only revenge. There are no more Wildings to rescue so he isn't stopping Jon "for the greater good". And if the other Crows jump in it makes even less sense. I'd have to think then Jon's death would be about something else like the letter (Jon running off to help Stannis/rescue Sansa etc.). But if that is the case why would Ollie be involved? They have set him up as only caring that the Wildlings murdered his family. Unless it is just a free-for-all. It will be interesting to see how they do it. Now watch, after all this speculation Jon doesn't receive so much as a scratch in the next episode and they drop the stabby McStabathon entirely.

Interesting.So you think their reliance on the wall keeping everyone safe would abdigate their fear? I can see that. Short-sighted but fear makes people stupid. Easier to strike bargains in ones mind than face the fact. And I guess hate can create a bad moral compromise. It's "only" the Wildings dying and who cares if they add to the WW army because the wall keeps us safe - that sort of thing. Gonna bite them in the ass, as so often happens.

I was wondering the same thing. I know Ollie is upset, understandably, but once he ( and everyone) hears what happened at Hardhome surely that would temper any idea of revenge. The recounting of the attack should scare some sense into Ollie - you'd think. To kill Jon at that point would be blindingly stupid.

I really liked the comparrison set-up between Stannis and Dany. He was willing to kill his own child for his ambition whereass she will protect her child. What I got from her flight was that. She was protecting Drogon and not willing to sacrafice him on any level. What makes me sad and angry is that (I am convinced) Mel has this all wrong and she's twisted Stannis so tight around her he can no longer think for himself - he can't see the flames for the embers. She will simply switch allegiance once she figures it out and Stannis will be left realizing what he has done. His arrogance is his weakness. I know from reading this thread that there is a great difference in his character in the books and I'm just observing what has been presented on the show. I was also becoming attached to his character but did see this possibility coming although I hoped, really hoped, Mel would realize her mistake or some other Shireene saving plot twist. Sigh...

I was about to post a thought about this. The way Dillane played the scene was, it seemed to me, to give his character a bit of the crazy. Even someone convinced this was his only choice would show some emotion at the loss of a daughter - but he showed none. See the mothers reaction as an example. She thought it was a good idea at first and had never shown love for her daughter but her mom DNA kicked in and she wanted to protect her child. So my question is, is it possible Stannis is going a bit mad? I haven't read the books so this is an outsiders observation. Just curious if the learned think it's possible. He might be getting more than retina burn from all this staring into flames.