Macgregor of the North

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About Macgregor of the North

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    Clan Motto: "Royal is my Race".

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  1. "That I have not glimpsed" - Bloodraven.

    The Targaryen gift is not just about Dragons though if we remember correctly. Daemon II Blackfyre dreams of Dunk as a Kingsguard and also dreamed of his twin brothers dying. These are quite clear visions, perhaps clearer than Jojens dreams and most of the GOHH's. If we tie it to BR being a Greenseer then it will surely have the same uncertainty attached to it that the other prophetic instances we have seen have. The word glimpsed makes it seem like he is given little to work with, like the Targ or green dreams. With many more Novellas due that will surely involve Bloodraven at certain times, and also the last two main books to come, I'd like a bit more information on if Bloodraven has this skill and how he thinks he has it.
  2. "That I have not glimpsed" - Bloodraven.

    I began two threads on this topic last year and something has peaked my interest yet again during a re read of Brans final chapter in ADWD that I was doing for the Bran meddling in the past thread. A comment I'd not read in a wee while as I'm currently on ASOS in the cycle of re reads. In my threads I speculate that Bloodraven may possibly be blessed with the gift that certain Targaryens have where they can glimpse what is to come in the future through dreams. He is even later introduced by Coldhands as "Dreamer". The Mystery Knight: "There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong." Here is the particular comment Bloodraven says to Bran: "The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." "When?" Bran wanted to know. "In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow." Ok, so here Bloodraven says "That I have not glimpsed", are we right to be assuming he has glimpsed certain other things but he just means that "that" is something he has not glimpsed?. Now, because Bloodraven is a kind of super magical type with awesome Old gods worshipping Blackwood blood and also Targaryen blood, I'm never sure where to pin the ability on to if it is indeed true that he has the ability to glimpse things that are to come through dreams/visions. Is it some sort of greendreams prophetic ability like the Ghost of High Heart and Jojen, or is it (like I speculated in my other threads) the Targaryen "gift" he spoke of in TMK. Or is it a combination of both?. I'm reluctant to think that simply because Bloodraven is a Greenseer, he can have clear visions of the future whenever he pleases as that's a bit too easy for the story I think, but I think he may have the ability, like we have seen others in the story have, to receive glimpses of things that are to come but they are likely visions/dreams to be wary of as they can be misleading such as Melisandres, Jojens or the GOHH's. What do others think, does anybody think that Bloodraven will prove to have the ability to glimpse things that are to come through dreams/visions.
  3. Brans meddling with the past

    That probably is a cheeky hint for us. I'm looking forward to seeing how GRRM handles Walders incident in the books.
  4. Brans meddling with the past

    @Frey family reunion Im glad you mentioned the Osha instance. I believe it has earned its spot in this thread of @Nezza86. Here is the full quote for reference: "If Robb has to go, watch over him," Bran entreated the old gods, as they watched him with the heart tree's red eyes, "and watch over his men, Hal and Quent and the rest, and Lord Umber and Lady Mormont and the other lords. And Theon too, I suppose. Watch them and keep them safe, if it please you, gods. Help them defeat the Lannisters and save Father and bring them home." A faint wind sighed through the godswood and the red leaves stirred and whispered. Summer bared his teeth. "You hear them, boy?" a voice asked. Bran lifted his head. Osha stood across the pool, beneath an ancient oak, her face shadowed by leaves. Even in irons, the Wildling moved quiet as a cat. Summer circled the pool, sniffed at her. The tall woman flinched. "Summer, to me," Bran called. The direwolf took one final sniff, spun, and bounded back. Bran wrapped his arms around him. "What are you doing here?" He had not seen Osha since they'd taken her captive in the wolfswood, though he knew she'd been set to working in the kitchens. "They are my gods too," Osha said. "Beyond the Wall, they are the only gods." Her hair was growing out, brown and shaggy. It made her look more womanly, that and the simple dress of brown roughspun they'd given her when they took her mail and leather. "Gage lets me have my prayers from time to time, when I feel the need, and I let him do as he likes under my skirt, when he feels the need. It's nothing to me. I like the smell of flour on his hands, and he's gentler than Stiv." She gave an awkward bow. "I'll leave you. There's pots that want scouring." "No, stay," Bran commanded her. "Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods." Osha studied him. "You asked them and they're answering. Open your ears, listen, you'll hear." Bran listened. "It's only the wind," he said after a moment, uncertain. "The leaves are rustling." "Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?" She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. "They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back." "What are they saying?" "They're sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the south. The weirwoods there were all cut down, thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?" Bran had not thought of that. It frightened him. If even the gods could not help his brother, what hope was there? Maybe Osha wasn't hearing them right. He cocked his head and tried to listen again. He thought he could hear the sadness now, but nothing more than that." I personally believe there is every chance that Bran is looking back on that event, having later learned how events played out for his brother and his Northern host, and expresses his sadness which carries over to Osha and Bran.
  5. Brans meddling with the past

    @Dorian Martell's son In regards to what you say here: I feel I must try to point out something to you. Just read it and please, set your stubborn attitude aside. I am fully aware that Bran Stark is not a tree. He is a human boy, we agree there. But, as of the moment he ate the paste of Weirwood, he became what Bloodraven referred to as "wed to the trees". "Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees." I'm not quite sure how you take that but it is a very very strong connection that has been made here. From what you will find, it is akin to the bond Bran shares with his Wolf Summer. After Bran has eaten this paste, he is literally able to slip in to the roots of the tree in the exact same way he would slip into Summers skin. The tree and Summer are both living vessels that Bran can fuse with and become one with. See BR himself here explain it to Bran. "Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see." Bran is doing exactly what he is doing with Summer, as the teacher explains, and we know exactly how strong the connection between Bran and Summer is when he is inside Summers skin. "I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel." Infact, after eating the paste Bran is so connected (wed) to the trees now that he need not even sit the Weirwood throne they laid out for him. When he retires to his quarters he closes his eyes and all of a sudden has slipped the roots of the trees again, just like he does in the Wolf dreams he has with Summer. "Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes. … but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father." This strong connection sees greenseer/skinchanger and vessel become as one. The way Bran describes it as he is slipping his own skin and entering the tree roots is as he is actually "becoming the tree". "Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree." And again later: "I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes" So now we have established the connection and the strength of this connection. Bran is now most certainly playing by the trees rules when he has slipped in to the tree, whether he is doing it awake or dreaming like his wolf dreams. And we know the rules the trees play by don't we. They don't deal with time as the past present and future. Time is all one to the trees, so Bran, while in the trees is actually able to view an event as it happens "in time". To the tree it is simply the event happening. So check here the full quote of the first time Bran slips in to the roots of the tree and actually becomes the tree just like he becomes Summer. "Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see." Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below. Then all at once he was back home again." This is not Bran simply accessing a memory from some database of the trees (which I'm sure it would tell us if it was), Bran is actually feeling what's happening to him. All at once he "was back home again". Bran is there viewing that moment, Ned is actually cleaning Ice in front of the tree in a time that Bran would refer to as the "past" if he was not at one with the tree, but he is in the tree, as one with the tree. So to the tree, Ned is simply sitting there cleaning Ice. What we have to get you to see now is the very high possibility that Brans whisper of the word "Winterfell" when he has slipped in to the tree, and "became the tree" carries over the wind and is actually what causes the leaves to rustle, making Ned turn. And as in a Stable time loop, Ned always turned at that exact time and Bran always was the cause of Ned turning. Nothing whatsoever has been changed and nothing in what humans refer to as the past, can ever be changed as per what BR tells Bran. So what you say here below, again has me scratching my head and wondering if you really do understand how to apply the Stable time loop to asoiaf. Your own words here: "there would be no reason to have a story as he could just shape the past as he saw fit. and make it great for his family and loved ones. He would warn Ned about the others, bob, cersei, jaime and littlefinger and tywin. He would warn Benjen, the watch, Jon and Robb. But then we wouldn't have the story we love. I don't see why you would want to make that story go away?" With a Stable time loop applied to asoiaf, Bran Stark, or any Greenseer, will never ever ever be able to change what has already happened in the past to make their life happier or to how they see fit. Any time they ever tried to and found they had some effect, would only result in them being the actual cause of the event and the only timeline that has ever been in the history of their world. Bloodraven has the right of it after all. The past remains the past, they can learn from it, but they can never change it. And I think BR pretty much wants to warn Bran against trying, lest he become confused and disillusioned as he is still a child. They have an important job to do. They can't have the greatest hope for mankind losing his mind trying to bring back dead relatives or trying to change the timeline to make his family be there in the present as it will derail what purpose they are trying to achieve with Bran. Just need you to get all this now.
  6. Brans meddling with the past

    @Dorian Martell's son I find it amusing how you think what you have posted ends this discussion with you in the right lol. Far from it. I also find it strange that you genuinely believe that you have left proofs that Bran is simply accessing memories from the tree. Tell me. Why does BR never tell Bran this? Why does BR tell Bran that through the gates of the Weirwood, that treats the past, present and the future all as one, he may gaze in to the past?. That is absolutely nothing like telling Bran he can access the memories of the tree, which would be so simple to tell Bran, yet he doesn't. BR is a smart knowledgeable man yes. We can not dispute that, although you likely will try since you love to dispute everything. He knows what he's talking about in these matters so we must look to him for guidance. Heres some words from the man himself. "He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." When BR became wed to the trees he will have had Cotf who could explain things to him in regards to what he can do with the trees. If all greenseers can do is access a memory in the tree and watch it on playback then BR will have been told this, or at least figured it out himself after trying to talk to who he saw the very first time he slipped the roots of the trees. The way BR talks though, its like it's not that you can simply watch a re run of the trees memory, but you can actually gaze into the past and see that event. He has tried to talk with people on at least three occasions. The two brothers and the woman he desired. That is not the behaviour of someone who understands they are watching a re run of a trees memory that is stored in its roots system, that is the behaviour of someone who believes that he has indeed visited that "time" in the past and felt he could actually talk to the people he is seeing. If he ever thought he was watching a playback of a tree memory, he would have quit after the first time he tried to reach one of the people he saw. But he never, he continued trying again and again. So what then it seems he is telling Bran is that he isn't simply watching a memory from the trees archive but he really is watching that "past" event. But he is warning Bran that as much as he tries, Bran can not speak with these people. He even tells Bran that the past remains the past, that they can not change it. That would be a perfect time to tell Bran that he is not seeing the past but simply viewing a playback of a memory from the trees. That would be very very effective in showing Bran that he can't change the past wouldn't it?. Why doesn't he tell Bran this?. Because he would be lying, and Bran will figure it out soon anyway. They are not just watching playbacks of memories, they are seeing events through the eye of the trees. Because when a Greenseer slips the skin of the tree roots he goes in to the tree, and once their consciousness is in the tree, the trees rules come into play. And the rules the trees play by is that it does not view time like men. Words like the past and the present mean nothing, so while in the trees, one can literally gaze at what the person would think of as the "past", even though the tree doesnt, it is just the moment of an event, like Ned cleaning Ice for example. Bottom line here DMs. You have absolutely nothing you can quote that states in the books that Bran is simply accessing a memory from the trees database. There is many times Leaf and BR can tell Bran this and it would be without doubt the most effective way to let a young boy know that he can't change things. They don't tell him this though, they tell him the truth, that he can literally gaze at what he will view as the past, but he can't change it. And they are correct, Bran will never be able to change the past. What I expect you to finally believe though , whether it's from myself or RR explaining it to you, or the next books explaining it, is that certain people will be able to react to an action of Brans, and that their reaction always was caused by Brans action. Not changing anything, but being the cause of it. Exactly like this thread is speculating.
  7. Brans meddling with the past

    I'm curious as to what proofs anybody can bring forth that Bran is simply accessing a memory from the Weirwoods "hard drive" for want of a better term. Bloodraven has told Bran that he is looking through the eyes of the Heart tree which sounds nothing like some sort of press play and watch a memory function, that sounds like Bran is actually seeing the event through the eyes of the tree, just like BR says. He also tells Bran they can gaze into the past. Again, if all Bran is doing is accessing a memory stored in the trees, why doesn't he just say that to Bran? Why doesn't he just tell him in straight up, no bullshit terms, look Bran, you can access the memories of the Weirwood trees and watch what they remember. Why doesn't BR say this to Bran?. Maybe because Bran is not simply accessing a memory of the trees. Maybe he's doing just what BR said, he is literally gazing into the past and seeing it through the eyes of a Weirwood. If he was just accessing a memory from the tree I do not think it would be explained this way. Heres a quote: "A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past." This does not sound to me like Bran is watching a memory of the tree at all. Time is not understood by the tree like it is for us. The past present and the future are all one for the tree. Bran is literally able to look through the eyes of a Weirwood and gaze in to the past, but the tree doesn't see it as the past, the event is just the event happening and Bran can see it. He is not looking through some archived memory of the tree, he is seeing the "past". Well it's "the past" to him, but not the tree, to the tree it's just Ned cleaning Ice, or whatever event Bran happens to see. Greenseeing is "seeing" something. Not watching an old memory of the tree. IMO.
  8. Brans meddling with the past

    So if you are in full agreement that Brans whisper can be heard in present time, why can't you open up to the possibility that Brans action can be heard and provoke a reaction in what we view as "the past" like it did when Ned turned asking who's there. We know that time is different for the trees. They simply do no not see time like we do, it's nothing to them, the past present and future are all one to them. ADWD BRAN III: "Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries." ADWD BRAN III: "A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one." Ok, so if the tree does not separate "time" like we do and therefore does not view a point in "time" like we do, then, to the tree, which is the magical vessel that's allowing these things to happen, Ned cleaning Ice in front of the Weirwood is just an event that happened in "time". The tree doesn't view it as the past like we do does it. It's just happening and Bran is viewing it happening through the tree (that doesn't treat like time we do, and treats past present and future as one and the same). So if you believe that "present" time communication can happen, then Brans whisper, while passing through the tree that treats the present in exactly the same way it does the past and the future, can also reach a person in front of the tree at that "time" and provoke a reaction. The tree is the magical device here and if we play by the trees rules, then the instances of "present" time and "past" time scenarios are one and the same yeah?. Have you ever wondered that Bloodraven may be warning Bran, so he doesn't seek to meddle with what he views as the past too much. BR may well know exactly what can happen and does not want Bran to meddle, as if Bran finds he was the cause of something, it may break his spirit and ruin any plans they have for him. Just a thought. Finding he was the cause of something terrible and sad may well drive Bran away from BR and the Cotf's plan and cause and make him reluctant to continue his training in greenseeing. In any event do you at least concede that the trees do not view an event as the past like BR and Bran do because time is different to them. So a person in front of the tree is really just a person in front of the tree, not a person in front of the tree in "the past". So the same rules would then apply in regards to present time scenarios like the one with Theon yeah?.
  9. Brans meddling with the past

    And your bringing my name up here why? Don't drag me into your bickering match RR your on your own here, even though we are in agreement on the topic.
  10. Brans meddling with the past

    It's no fault of yours that people think you are meaning that Bran can change the past. As soon as people hear "Bran" and the "past" it does something to people and they get all weird lol. If they don't get it, they don't get it, leave them to it. Many of us know exactly what you meant and like i said when I first came on, don't be disheartened by Dorian Martells son. He feels it's his job, like the forum police or something haha, to come on threads like these and preach his infinite wisdom.
  11. Brans meddling with the past

    Ive had a curious thought. Ok Ned is sitting in front of the Heart tree cleaning Ice as he has done likely a good few times yeah? Infact I'm quite sure Ned will have sat and prayed in the godswood, or sat in front of his Heart tree likely hundreds of times yeah?. The place is no stranger to him. He gets his alone time in the Godswood with the Heart tree and it's his place he likely goes to for quiet time. He will have heard the leaves rustle hundreds of times and heard the wind move through the trees just as much. So why would Ned turn suddenly to think that someone was actually there if all he heard was a rustling amongst the leaves of the tree he has sat at likely hundreds of times?. He turns with such a certainty that someone is there, which seems strange for somebody who has heard the leaves of his own Heart tree rustle so many times, which logically thinking, he will have. There has to be more to what Ned heard and felt if we think of it this way no? He must have felt something was different this time. I think this hints at what Bloodraven says, that Ned heard a whisper on the wind. I believe that Ned actually vaguely caught Brans whisper that carried on the wind and this made him act out of character in front of his own tree and actually be startled enough to think someone was behind him. Whereas if it was just a regular old rustling of the leaves, that he is more than used to, he wouldn't be startled in this way I don't believe.
  12. Brans meddling with the past

    @Amris It doesn't complicate things further. Your looking at it the right way. As opposed to DM up there. It's true, we don't know yet, you are not ruling it out though and that means you have approached this thread with the correct attitude. It's down to interpretation. There are those of us who see it one way, and those of us who see it another. The next books will prove who has seen it the correct way. True, but also, just like BR says, Bran may actually be literally gazing into the past and seeing what happened there. BR actually says that he and Bran may gaze into the past, he doesn't ever tell Bran literally that he can access a memory of the tree. Im curious, when Bran is able to see well past the trees, which he will soon, what vessel do you think the memory will be "stored" in then?. Don't agree with this. BR tells Bran that his father turned because he heard a whisper on the wind and a rustling among the leaves so we know that in the only timeline that has ever happened Ned always turned at that moment because he heard something, I think all that's left to determine is if Bran whispering "Winterfell" made him turn, or Ned just turned at a noise not related to Bran. With Theon I'm personally sold that he heard Bran whispering through the trees in both their presents. There was no wind and Brans voice travelling to Theon is what's making the leaves rustle. I won't budge on that one. And im actually quite set in my ways I must admit, that while Bran slipped the roots of the Weirwood for the first time and whispered at his father that was heard too just like Theon. The tree views the past present and future as one, it does not see "time" like humans do so Brans whisper carries through "time" as a whisper on the wind to what we would call "the past" but the tree just views as Ned in front of it cleaning his sword. But, and this is where DM will chime in and bark at me, I think Ned always turned round from Brans whisper from "the future", it always happened that way because to the trees the past present and future are one, like how things work in a Stable time loop.
  13. Brans meddling with the past

    And here we go DM. Your getting upset again, detest is an awfully strong word and I think it's clouding your understanding of how this would work in this story. I personally don't think you get how a Stable time loop would work in asoiaf at all but that's my opinion and im entitled to it so let's let that lie. It's no skin off my nose at all, I'm all good with how the trope would work in the story, unlike you who "detests" the idea. Maybe that's your issue? You don't like it and don't want it to happen in the story?. So you brush off every possibility of it occurring in the story. Im afraid to say it's quite likely this is the direction we are heading and if you don't like it, then I suppose that's your problem isn't it. The story isn't being written just for you. And lighten up, I saw Lost Melnibonean ask you on another thread why you were upset. Chill on here man, not worth getting worked up, we know where that heads. It boils down to this really and this is where our conversation ends on the matter. I firmly believe that Bran whispering "Winterfell" while in the roots of the tree is what makes his father turn round to ask who's there, and you don't. Brans voice is described as a "whisper on the wind" as well as a "rustling among the leaves" but your convinced that Ned simply just heard the wind rustling the leaves and Bran had nothing to do with it at all. That's all good if you don't believe it, many of us do though and will continue to discuss it and have fun with the idea. There's many topics that suit your beliefs kicking around. I have no interest whatsoever in trying to get you to interpret the story how many of us do, im happy to leave you in your own world DM, but I'll catch up with you on the topic when the new book comes out ok and we can re-evaluate our thoughts on the matter yeah? Oh, I forgot to say, Bran looking back to a time when steel wasn't brought to Westeros yet? What are you talking about? When he slips the roots for the first time, the time we've been talking about the whole time, Ned is cleaning Ice. Bran is very very likely alive at this point and steel has been being used in Westeros for some time.
  14. Another idle thought

    A lot of other people saying that too? Lol, were all worried about you man.
  15. Brans meddling with the past

    @Dorian Martell's son You really are not getting it DM. When it comes to the Weirwood tree, it does not see it as the "past". There is no "time" for the tree, it simply doesn't work like that for the tree. In the one timeline, the only timeline ever, Ned turns round because of Bran whispering Winterfell in what "we" class as the "future" but to the trees that don't mean shit, the past present and future are one. Please try not to think of it as Bran "effecting the past". That's not helping. Just thinks of it as one timeline and an action only ever happens once, but Bran can be what always caused that action from "the future" if we must call it that, even though the Weirwood tree does not see it like that.