Macgregor of the North

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About Macgregor of the North

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    Clan Motto: "Royal is my Race".

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    The North of Scotland.

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  1. Hahaha, this is my thread. I belong here discussing the books. It's my spot where I have opened up for people to come and discuss a brilliant topic. I'm not out of place here. But you are. You are here for me. If you are not then leave. Why keep coming back to me?. I'm afraid you have it twisted son, everytime you reply, I win. Although the decisive blow was made some time back lol.
  2. Hahahaha you have lost your bite it seems DM, what happened to the super sharp big shot snarky witty DM?. Like I said, the fact you keep showing up in my notifications without actually even bringing up a counter to my valid points shows how obsessed you are and only highlights your sad descent from witty class/Forum clown to sad stalker. DM, if you have nothing to say on the books points, you are done. Finished son. Retire and lick your wounds. I see you are already commenting on two other threads, I wish you better luck there. Because here, you have been completely obliterated. And keep the insults about parenting coming (very mature), they only strengthen my point.
  3. Exactly the responses I expected @Dorian Martell's son. You can not counter any of my points at all (not one lol) and have decided to back down completely. It's a complete walk over from me. You have visibly given up, because you can't reply. You have nothing left. Quite frankly son, you were just destroyed. Any reply you make must contain a counter using the books or you will only succeed in making an even bigger imbecile of yourself than you already have. Now, excuse me while my horse tramples over your crumpled frame and I do my victory lap to rapturous applause from the commons, and I wheel my horse in the direction of @ravenous reader... but I saunter past her, to lay a bowl of hot red peppers on Arianne Martells lap and lay one on her fine ass lips crowning her the QOLAB. I hope she's no relation of yours, because she's mine now. Victory is sweet!
  4. Explain yourself. Time, never mind "real time" is not a concept the Weirwood tree network understands. Past present and future are one to the tree so it is simply Ned sitting cleaning Ice, or Ned praying, or Theon babbling on his knees like you with a poetry quote. The Weirwood tree sees all time as one. It does not differentiate. A thousand human years is a moment to a Weirwood tree. Now that Bran is wed to the trees he can merge his consciousness with this strange magical network and gateway and he then "becomes" the tree, as per his words. Bran now then operates under the trees limitations and views all time as one. Bran then is not abiding by the rules of time and the concept of "time" goes out the window. He sees all. But the limitations of the tree extend to communication so Bran can not hold full conversations with the people he sees, but he can capture their attention and prompt a reaction. It does not matter though that we view it as the past, or Bran views it as the past back in his own skin, this reaction and it's cause are set in stone in "time". So if the past present and future are all one and the same to the tree then the future where Bran is wed to the trees is as real as the "past" or "present" yes? So him causing Ned to turn, or looking up and frown in both of Neds "present times" is already set in stone as the cause yes?. And while your at it, let's hear your own personal view on the tree viewing the past present and future as one. Certainly seems like the future is a very real thing where glimpses of it can be accessed yes?. It is said the Greenseers can delve into the past and see far into the future. You don't believe there is a future out there in this story though do ya? Only the present yes?, nothing at all out there that can be glimpsed no?.
  5. @ravenous reader Was having a skim through the app. Although its classed as semi canon blah blah blah, its still something GRRM contributed a lot to and Elio and Linda created with GRRMs blessing and help so it may be worth looking at and adding to the mix. On the matter of Bran seeing Ned the second time it says: "Bran begins to have more visions of the past. He sees his father, younger still, praying that his sons will grow up as brothers should and that his wife will forgive him. Bran tries to speak to him, but his father hears it only as a whisper on the wind." So the app is pretty clear it is Bran that caused the noise Ned hears, he simply does not hear all Bran says clearly. Worth submitting as evidence. If Ned heard nothing like our genius claims, or if Bran wasn't the cause of Ned reacting then I am sure this would have stated it as such. On top of the fact that GRRM distinctly says that "Brans voice was a whisper on the wind and a rustle in the leaves" in the book, it is certainly looking like your stunning claim that Ned heard nothing is needing revised @Dorian Martell's son. Once you have admitted Ned heard the noise, we will then look at getting you to open up to the idea that Bran caused the noise. We will get you there. Believe that.
  6. Nah, your Bran views are tip top and have my respect. I simply mean what I said. DM will never admit any of these beliefs or possibilities directly to me, but if he does to you, then it's a result all the same. He could never admit defeat to a man (it's a guy thing), but a woman... well, you have shown that he's already opening up. He may well break down in tears soon and confess he agreed with us all along if you would only recite one more poem for him before his mum tells him he has been on the laptop too long and it's time for his bed.
  7. You said before that he heard nothing. You are sure on that assumption yes and your reasoning is that the reactions would be different? Is that honestly the tactic you're applying now?. No two reactions have to be the same in any situation, and rarely are. And that is the worst answer ever to back up your statement that Ned never heard anything. Lets focus on your two wrong statements. It's brilliant watching your defence crumble. Your too busy spouting off poetry, like a love struck boy talking to a girl for the first time that you are slipping. And I'm here to capitalise on that. Good work RR. You claim Ned heard nothing. And you also claim Ned was frowning while praying. Both clearly wrong. But your reasoning for this completely false statement is that "the reaction would be different the second time". So, you are on board that Bran whispering Winterfell the first time generated a noise at Neds point in time and that made him react and turn to the tree to ask who's there, you agree on that reaction. Great, but you think that the reaction should be exactly the same the second time? Why? For a start, he is facing the tree with his head bowed and does not need to turn, so straight out the gate the reaction would be different. He is not turning but lifting his head. Your argument that the reactions just have to be the same must stop here because the set up is different and there is no turn to be made in the first place. So, we must work with what we have. Neds head is bowed praying and he is facing the tree. A whole different lay out to the first vision. You mention above, "if Bran is speaking to him". Well, no, as the author clearly stated: "Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves." So, he's not speaking to him clearly like you would speak to your mum and ask if you can stay on the laptop a little longer because your googling poetry. Brans voice is a whisper in the wind and a rustle in the leaves where Ned is praying. Unless Ned is stone deaf, Ned hears this yeah?. You claim point blank that Ned heard nothing. Let's see if you still stick to that. Ok so Bran tries to speak to his father but his voice is caught up in amongst the wind and leaves and sounds like what the true tongue can sound like, a whispery sound in the wind and rustling leaves. Ned has been praying with head bowed, with absolutely no indication that he was frowning while praying like you claim, and as he gets to the point of saying forgive... he is stopped and looks up at the tree to frown for a long time. At this stage do you still believe Ned hears nothing?. Do you still think he has been frowning while praying?. Will you come back and adjust your statements maybe to say that Ned was praying and then looked up to frown at the tree. Will you come back to us and still say that Ned heard nothing, even though the author confirms that there was the exact same noise happening the second time that happened the first time. And contrary to what you may think, the reactions do not have to be the same because the first time the noise comes from behind Ned, and this one comes from in front of him. No matter which way you look at it, the reactions will be different. It really is astonishing though that you claim Ned heard nothing the second time after it's spelled out for us the same noise as the first time is in play. That's past stubborn DM, that's flat out denial. But you can't deny what's in the books I'm afraid, no matter how much times you try. Ned heard those noises and then looked up at the tree to frown for a long time. To deny that and say Ned never heard anything will only serve to make you look bitter and foolish. Sigh... let's turn to Melisandre. My assertion that Melisandre is looking at a glimpse of the future is based on the fact that there are instances in these books where information from the future has been accessed, be it through the flames or Targ dreams or Greendreams. That is a very real thing in this story. It can also effect the present time, do you deny this?. Mel can access this time in the flames and even though she can't interpret it correctly every time in regards to what it means there is no doubt she has the gift to tell between things that have happened and things that are to happen. She is mistaken in interpreting who she sees but she is not mistaken in where the vision comes from. On top of all that. Melisandre tells us that the vision has not happened yet, but will happen: "A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will." Altogether, more evidence than you have produced DM. What can you conjure up to show that Mel can't see the future in the flames and that this vision was in real time?. Give it a bash and actually turn to the books to back up your big claims. And save your nonsense about it not being Arya. That means nothing. The information is from the future and regardless of who it is, it made Mel go to Jon, it made Jon believe it was Arya, and it made Jon send Mance and the spearwives. So DM. Balls in your court son. Using the books as I've asked you a few times now, prove you're assertions that: Ned heard nothing the second time. Ned was frowning while praying the second time. Mel saw the girl in grey on the horse in real time. If you can't, just say you can't, and I'll take the result, and the glory.
  8. @Dorian Martell's son You never provided any text from the books for your claim that Mel saw the girl on the dying horse in real time and not a glimpse of the future. Was it that you couldn't find any and you think your word is simply enough? Is that the way of it?. Please show something from the books to back your "opinion" up. DM don't get frustrated. RR is doing a wonderful job of luring you in and dazzling you to the point that she will have you a Bran believer in no time. It's been obvious for a long time you can't concede to a man for fear of shame and embarrassment but when it comes to a woman, you are like a giddy teenager and at this rate, by the time the next book comes out you will probably claim that you agreed with us all along hahaha. Great work RR. Break him down.
  9. The second time: "… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …" "Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......" Yeah, Ned heard "nothing". Couple this with your observation earlier in the thread that Ned was frowning while praying. Which is actually false, since he was bowed praying, and is then prompted to lift his head by the sound Bran generates to then stare at the tree for a long time frowning.
  10. You just keep softening him up. He's putty in your hands. He's slowly but surely becoming a believer, and when he is fully on board, I will be there to let him know he took long enough to admit it. Keep up the good work RR.
  11. You soften him up and lower his guard, and I'm ready to pounce the moment he drops this stubborn nonsense and we are all in agreement. It's coming and he knows it.
  12. Hahaha this is about the ninth time you have used this old chestnut, I'd stake money on it being a projection of your own home life, nice trick there. It still amounts to you coming round to the idea and being very very close to admitting Bran caused Neds reaction in the past. That's a big deal for you. Whether it's RR or myself makes no matter to me. Your too stubborn to admit defeat to me, but I'm just happy your finally seeing things our way. Prove that if you can, using the book text. It is completely irrelevant she never knew the girl wasn't Arya. She saw a girl she thought was Arya in the future through the flames and that prompted her to talk with Jon which prompted him to send Mance and the spearwives. That is Information from the future causing actions in the present whether you can admit it or not. The girl on the horse was seen in the flames in the future and this set in course actions in the present. And if the past present and future are all one to the Weirwood trees, there is a future set in stone in ASOIAF. Take your time to find the text showing that Mel saw the girl on the horse in real time. I'll await that. Yup, when Bran realises he was responsible for a certain event, his perception of how it happened will change because he was always the cause. Simple really.
  13. I think Bran is destined to leave this area. After eating the Weirwood paste he is wed to the trees and can slip his consciousness into their roots even without sitting on the throne they set out for him. I do not think he needs to spend time in the cave to fulfill his role in the story, nor will he. Bloodraven seems to have let his body merge with the tree to linger longer than his mortal lifespan allows so he can interact with Bran and teach him when he arrives in the cave, but I do not think this is what is in store for Bran.
  14. There is no "as I want to see it". If the trope is applied, it is the trope that decides this, not me, or the writer himself can set his own preferred limitations, which he evidently has because Bran is told he can not change the past, and also there are communication limitations in the sense that Bran can not hold back and forth conversations with the people he sees. If he could and told Robb or his father of certain dangers and they avoided them and lived, Brans present would not exist and then all sorts of confusion ensues and things like alternate timelines and stuff come into play (and different tropes entirely to the one we are discussing) or GRRMS story loses its dramatic effect and things are too controlled and easy. That would be shit I'm sure you would agree. With the application of this trope it simply means that through functional magic, a character can access other points in "time". In Brans case here, we mean the past, but, due to the trope (or GRRM)setting this rule, nothing he does will ever erase the timeline that brought him to his "present". Everything is all set in stone, there is no other timelines or the chance to make other timelines when a writer applies this trope. Anything Bran ever does to change anything will only serve to show him he is responsible for the very event he set out to change. Things only happen once, and with the insertion of greeenseer magic and other portals/doorways/mediums such as the flames into the story our characters can access "time". Yes, this is the past and the future we are talking about. Melisandre saw the future when she saw the girl in grey on the dying horse. It effected her and Jon's "present" because they talked about it and the idea that it was his sister was presented. He even sends Mance and the spearwives on the strength of it. This is cause and effect on the present from the future. No two ways about it. So, if we take ourselves to the "time" where the girl is riding the horse to the Wall. That information travels from that "present" to the "past", where Mel accesses it from the flames, and it prompts her to seek Jon and they talk about it. The cause and effect is all set in stone and that is then the present effecting the past right there, or the future effecting the present depending on perspective. These instances of cause and effect are set in stone though, regardless of the origin in "time", because the magical doorway, portal or medium is at play. There was no other way that timeline played out ever. Jon and Mel had those conversations in the only timeline ever because information from another "time" was accessed. And it is accessed through magic. Yes, Weirwood gateways, Greenseer magic and also flame portals and gateways. All magic. The trope of the self fulfilling prophecy is something that GRRM has already said he is having fun with. This is similar in ways to the loop we are talking about, so there's a very very real possibility that GRRM is doing this with Bran, and yes, the trope states that no matter what you do, you can not change the events of the past. What will change though, is Brans perception of the events. This will certainly change, and this is where the real impact will be. The young boy who only yearns to change things to make them right, only to find he may have been responsible all along. If you would personally detest that, then that is your own personal issue. I would find that interesting. But we are all different thankfully, or the world would be boring.
  15. Ahhh, real progress here. Dorian are you actually admitting that Bran can speak the true tongue while he has slipped from his own skin into the Weirwood and is time travelling in the Weirwood as you say?. Your only problem now is that the people can't understand him when he tries to talk so he cant have proper conversations with them, and it is now only "merely akin" to watching a security camera on playback, but not actually that. Seems to me like you are admitting that Bran can operate outwith the strictures of time and a noise that was generated by him made its way to Neds point "in time" from Brans point "in time". Breakthrough? @ravenous reader