Macgregor of the North

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About Macgregor of the North

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    Clan Motto: "Royal is my Race".

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    The North of Scotland.

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  1. I think she stayed in the south but not Harrenhal, possibly in the Vale with her family on Jocelyn Starks side learning how to be a good southern wife and all that jazz or possibly at Riverrun, or even dividing her time between the vale and riverrun. That's not here nor there though and is discussion for another thread. I don't think Nan is diminished to simply a storyteller talking about any old runaway bride if she is telling from her own viewpoint and experiences. This was a good example you brought up and is a good addition to the thread. Ive been thinking about Nan and how you touch on her influencing Ben. When he returns to the North after Harrenhal, I think he is the last Stark teen left while all the others including his father are away to the wedding of his older brother, and then to war while he is stuck at home. With Old Nan ill add. So yeah I could see her filling his head with things that could include Nights watch history she has learned in books which may set him on a path to wishing to take the black. That's a possibility sure. We are allegedly getting to learn why Ben took the black IIRC so im looking forward to that. I think there is more to it than he heard the brother at Harrenhals pleas for recruits and that decided him. Im sure theres more to it than that but whether it be because Nan told him the Nights watch true history and true purpose and it moved him, or he has some knowledge of important things that it is best he is at the wall keeping his secrets im not sure. One thing I can see though is when he was the Stark in Winterfell after everyone was in the south he would have had plenty time to listen to Old Nans stories.
  2. It is said in the World book the castle was built beside the Gods Eye so is in that area by the sounds of it. It is quite a cool thought actually that Lyanna may have thought of Nans story if she was beside Harrenhal and the Gods eye while pondering her next decisions. So if the girl was Nan and told Lyanna of Whitewalls and how she fled her own marriage in her youth I suppose Lyanna being near the area could have brought back some thoughts of that story while she possibly planned to flee her own upcoming marriage. Thinking on how Old Nan fared ok in the end may have comforted Lyanna so she felt that absconding with Rhaegar may have not been that bad for her. All speculation of course but with some possibility attached to it.
  3. This forum is awash with people with elitist points of view on these books so it is hard to differentiate between those who are like that and those who aren't sometimes when all we have is typed words to go by. I'd love if everybody on this forum was just straightforward and nice and respectful all the time but it ain't like that so we all get our wires crossed and touchy discussions happen everyday where people read others wrongly and so on. We have had loads of discussions though on a few topics so I'm sure we can dust ourselves off and leave any sour points behind. No hard feelings. By the way, the idea that if the girl went to Bloodraven with her issue, but she was told that she was Ambroses property, and that prompted her to leave, is certainly a plausible angle for how she throws in with Dunk and Egg.
  4. I fully agree that it is less likely she turned to Bloodraven to get her "out" from the marriage but I had to put it in the list of possibilities because the text shows he has the power to decide if Ambrose keeps his wife or not. I agree with all the last parts you say. We may never get full closure on Nans origin but we can certainly speculate on this theory, it is by no means a non starter. It is very very hard to straight up shoot down if we look at all the angles, and in comparison to many theories kicking around, this one is certainly high on the list of topics worthy of discussion, the multiple pages shows that. The good thing about it is that if there is any truth to this theory, the Winterfell Novella would clear it up. And that hopefully won't be twenty years away. If GRRM finishes it fully after Winds (I think he has the story pretty much sorted in his head) I think it will become available before being packaged as a "three" with two other Novellas to give us something to read before ADOS. Yes, im enthusiastic about that lol, but somebody's gotta be.
  5. @direpupy if you think you were insulted I can't help you there mate. We have had many many discussions and I'm quite sure you would genuinely know when I was insulting you, which I wouldn't do. I could easily say that the way you were "waiting to see if I came to your conclusion" was insulting (and you certainly have came across as smug a few times) but I'm a big boy with thick skin so don't really let it bother me that way. I don't see why you felt the need to do that though when all you needed to do was present your conclusions and discuss them with me and the other posters instead of holding back your answers to see if we we're up to scratch in comparison with you. I don't get that logic, if you have things to say that can help this thread then by all means share them with me and the others but don't play games. I'm about book discussion here, not silly tit for tats and nonsense. so yes. Let's indeed move on.
  6. @direpupy So now we are both clear where we stand I'll expect future contributions from you on the thread to be with the intention of discussing its plausibility then yes? Since you have stated you are becoming more and more convinced. You have gave your best shot at debunking with the angle you came with and it didn't work so why not just have fun with the rest of us from now on?. Let your mind open up to all the possibilities And the only one butt hurt is you. If the truth stings you, then that is not my issue, I simply tell the truth on here. Your post very much made you come across as high and mighty like your answer was the only plausible answer and my answer on how she could have turned to Dunk and Egg for help was weak in comparison.
  7. @Manderly's Rat Cook I see the benefit of simply accepting this theory is entirely plausible (even though others don't) and therefore explore avenues of "what else it can bring to the story". On Nan and the Stark kids, we know Bran loves Old Nan from the text, even though he was annoyed with her story telling that day, which is excusable due to the fact he has had his life dramatically changed by being crippled. I think the other Stark kids will have had a good connection with her also, and by that I mean Ned and Lyannas generation also. She was still very much "Old"Nan when they were children too so all the story telling sessions the current kids got, Lyanna and Ned will have gotten also, until Ned went off to the Vale anyway. As to Nan and Lyanna. Yeah I can see Lyanna talking with Nan of her betrothal to Robert and her worries on the matter, certainly. She definitely had her worries about it. If Nan had been through what we are theorising in that she left a marriage to take to the road with another party then of course Nan could have offered Lyanna some input on the topic which Lyanna may have had in her mind when weighing up her options in the Riverlands. I view all that as plausible for sure. What I don't really agree with though is Lyanna bringing the idea of loving another man to the table in their discussions. I have not been able to bring myself into the camp that believes Lyanna travelled back to Winterfell after Harrenhal for whatever reason. I think she stayed in the south in preparation for the wedding while Benjen returned home allowing Rickard to make the journey south. So while I agree with what your saying as a possible way this theory works in to the story I don't think Lyanna had any thought to leave Robert for Rhaegar during discussion with Nan, but most certainly could have went to her with her issues on marrying Robert and Nan could have told her own story perhaps. I'll think on more ways this theory could effect or have effected the story and get back.
  8. Ok, in my OP I had one option out of many that was the Frey girl could have brought her case to Bloodraven or Egg and ask that the wedding be scrapped. In no way did i state anywhere that this would entail a case being brought before the High septon because Ambrose is a traitor guilty of treason against the crown and lucky to keep his head. This could have saw the girl just simply let go with no fuss being made and no annulments needed. I also never once stated that you did not need the High Septon for an annulment, not once @direpupy so that topic is firmly put to bed now. This particular option entailed the girl asking for if to be scrapped yes, but then things progressing to her getting away from Ambrose but with no High septon involvement at all. Why would Bloodraven take the case to the High Septon when he has the power to decide if Ambrose gets to "keep his wife" as I've stated all through our discussion. She can be just let go and Ambrose can do nothing about it. No High septons, no annulments, nothing of the sort. You (and only you)brought that angle to the discussion and now that we have finally decided that there is no reason for the High septon or the faith to even come in to the equation in any shape or form, then I haven't seen anything else you have brought to this discussion except to debunk it with only the one angle. If there's anything else you wish to add refresh what your bringing to the discussion as we have went over your point many times and it is now dead. There never was need for the High Septon, period. @Jak Scaletongue @Manderly's Rat Cook Good points, I'll get to you guys next when I have time today and on the thread will go now that we have put that nonsense to bed.
  9. @direpupy So you had all the answers yourself but we're waiting to see if I could answer the same as you who are so high and mighty on this forum? Sorry but that's the funniest comment this thread has saw yet. Look, we all get you have a real issue with the Nan as the Frey girl theory(you really don't have to contribute you know) but let's leave it there, you have said your piece now and your input will live forever in this thread and we thank you for it, I'll continue this discussion with the other posters who are contributing, while I call you a taxi, because by the content of your recent posts you sound drunk lol. That comment was a cracker I'll give you that
  10. @direpupy What proof do you have that makes you so sure that a Giant of a Hedge Knight with a bald boy as his squire would not be recognised by a man who was at Ashford? Especially after all that happened there, the whole realm knows the story. Uthor makes it very clear to Dunk that he could have many enemies in people who see him as the root of all their woes due to Ashford. Uthor wasn't even there and he knows, others will too, just because we don't read of it on page that does not make it so. Infact Uthors words make it more likely that people and Tourney Knights alike will have spied this huge giant like Hedge Knight with his baldy wee squire and whispers will have moved around that this was the man who was the cause of the trial of seven, and the reason why there was a trial of seven will have been whispered to I believe, which could easily endear Dunk to the bride further. I don't find that hard to believe and have used Uthors text to back up my assumptions. What text are you relying on direpupy?. Thank you. And more convincing to yourself perhaps but only because you are grudgingly denying its plausibility. Like ive always said from the start, I'm not sold either, but there is more than enough to speculate on and all this theory needs is GRRM to say it's so and it all fits perfectly. Time will tell. All I set out to do here was do a very thorough analysis, and it's actually had some great discussions. Some not so great too but hey, you gotta take the sweet with the sour. You can leave replying if you like mate, we usually agree to disagree on some things but find some common ground on others. It seems we reached our usual standpoint and I'll not lose sleep because you disagree with certain points. Infact, if you wish to continue the dance, @Manderly's Rat Cook is bringing up some really great thoughts inspired by book events. Great points again MRK.
  11. @direpupy That wasn't what was said. In my option where the girl requests for the marriage to be scrapped there is no full annulment or case brought to the High septon. Bloodraven simply would just decide then that Ambrose did not get to keep his wife, just like he earlier decided all by himself without any involvement of the faith that Butterwell could keep his wife. See what we're saying. I am not talking now, or never was talking about anything involving the High septon until you brought it up. Basically, if the girl asks for an out or for it to be scrapped, it need not even go that far. Bloodraven just simply decides Ambrose does not get to keep his wife. You get it now yeah?. I'm not explaining that one again to you. You should understand this by now. I'll reply to the other parts on another post.
  12. @Manderly's Rat Cook Some good points. It does sound more likely she could have just run off and newly labelled traitor Butterwell simply just does not have the resources or whatever to find her, likely grieving terribly over his castle getting torn down and wealth taken from him, he could even see his wife running away as just yet more bad fortune. She could chance upon Dunk and Egg heading North or actively pursue them. Its also true that Winterfell need not even know who she was before she came there. I don't see why she would need to tell them who she really was.
  13. We are seeming to do that again here I believe here direpupy. Yes I do recall now one of my options mentioning that she could ask for it to be scrapped, among other options. If she went that route I still don't think the High septon is needed though as Bloodraven could simply have let her go on her way with no need to take her case to the faith, which is kind of like treating the marriage as though it meant nothing (I suppose). I never really ever thought of anything huge and official like High septon involvement and a case being brought to the faith for full annulment. Anyways, we are past that like you say. I disagree of course that I rely too much on the fantasy side and think I've touched on a home truth that you look to the real world too much so you felt you must counter with that. I truly go with what the books show me, as that's the only true way to be guided here I think, and the books are fantasy, but I do not rely solely on it being fantasy to guide me, there is a difference. And direpupy I have answered your question quite sufficiently. I see you have went silent on the matter of Dunks identity and his helping the puppeteer being known from Ashford, which played a part in my answer to your question. Theres actually a higher chance the girl knows all about Dunk at Ashford. Her uncle Franklyn is a Tourney Knight who tilted at both Tourneys and will have known Dunk on sight. That is another source, very close to the girl I'll add, that can spread the word of Dunks actions around, and confirm that the big hedge Knight is indeed Dunk. Which could in turn show Dunk as the exact type of guy a girl could turn to if she needed aid, especially if you add that she's quite drawn to the man already, and the big guys squire is a prominent member of House Targaryen and Royal blood of the crown. The same crown who just pronounced that her treasonous husband was lucky to keep his head.
  14. Hmm, The young Frey girl being called Nymeria, while thinking on it I recall there has been some strangely named Freys in the books I think. We never did get her name so who knows. Yeah the angle your looking at is cool, Nymeria and her pack attacking the Freys was great to read about.
  15. Thing is, I never mentioned annulment at all. I think that's what you assumed. I was always talking more of like the girl could just be allowed to leave Ambrose regardless of the marriage and consummation and he couldn't do shit about it since he is a petrified craven lucky to have his head and would never dare to even think that he has any right to make a big deal of it, let alone involve High septons and the like. There seems to lie the confusion between us on that matter. The marriage need not be completely scrapped for the girl to leave Ambrose and him not be able to do anything about it. That's the point, and that is plausible. I wasn't really meaning for Bloodraven to perform some kind of annulment right at Whitewalls, I was simply showing that it was Bloodravens choice whether or not Ambrose got to keep his wife, which I think shows that if a situation arose where she no longer wanted to be "kept", she could get away from it easily enough. As to Dunk not using the same arms, that in no way means that she wasn't able to hear of the story of the freakishly built giant like hedge Knight with a bald boy for a squire who caused such a fuss at the Ashford Tourney because he helped some nobody of a girl, because of what happened with Baelor, that story is known throughout the realm. You assume too much there direpupy I think. The word could have gotten about the Whitewalls Tourney that Dunk was that hedge Knight easily, very easily. Uthor tells Dunk he knows of Ashford and Dunks involvement, so if he does then others will have made the connection too, which means word could have easily reached the Lord of the Castle and his young wife. It's not that hard to envision this really. Whats left I suppose is for you to open your mind to possibilities such as the girl running off and chancing across/or even purposefully catching up to Dunk and Egg and things taking off from there, or other similar scenarios. There's numerous circumstances that leave this theory open in regards to how this girl throws in with Dunk, a man who she may have heard about helping the puppeteer and a man who she is physically attracted to, and his wee squire Egg, who has shown himself at Whitewalls to be a Dragon of House Targaryen, on their travels North. The Novellas have that funny way of briefly touching on events Dunk and Egg have been through off page, like how they look back on their previous battle with the Ironborn, and of their crazy wee adventure in Dorne. At the beginning of the Winterfell Novella a similar scenario could take place where Dunk Egg and the girl reminisce on how she came to join them on the road North. If GRRM writes it you will take it all in and that will be that, but when it's speculated on for fun, you have trouble opening up to the possibility. I can understand that, but if I may say, I think sometimes you apply a little too much real world and sensible thinking to these fantasy stories. Do you per chance recall our conversation on the thread about Winterfells numbers? Where you argued for quite a long time with all your real world angles until you finally caved in and saw my point of view because I relied on exactly what was in the books, which is how empty Winterfell was when Theon took it. Anyways that's just an example. I think there are a few things in these books that give enough reason for us to speculate that this lass could have became the Winterfell wet nurse after joining Dunk and Eggs company. All possibilities have came from the book text, like my angles about Winterfells numbers. What I'm saying is don't be too quick to think it impossible because you think a lass in the real medieval world would have been unable to do this, that's all I'm saying.