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Everything posted by Bonkers

  1. I couldn't find the topic so I started this one, if you know of a more in-depth one/response please post below... Obviously my question is who told Brandon Stark that Lyanna had been kidnapped? We assume from the books (as even Barriston Selmy tells us that singers sing songs of R dying for the woman he loved) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, so who told the lie to her brother that she was kidnapped? I doubt Littlefinger had anything to do with it, so who does that leave with any motive? It was, after all, the reason for the the Rebellion.... could Tywin have made it up to start a war? Could it be that the meeting he arranged with Rhaegar at Harrenhal failed so he destroyed them?
  2. So I was thinking.... Azor Ahai We know about the forging of 'Lightbringer' ...made with Dragonglass and steel I think (given Jon thinking that the dragonglass he found is sharper than steel).... I assume it was the forging of the first Valyrian steel blade...... The first two times there was too much Obsidian in it - so it broke .... too brittle. Then the last time it was perfect.... But what if he created Nissa Nissa into an Other?.... he did stick it through her heart?! We have seen people have thier heads off with it...but no one whom was pierced through the heart...Cat did get cut, but we don't need to be reminded of Stoneheart do we? Imagine if Nissa Nissa was created, and he had to send her away..... and she then created an alliance with the Children, and hence made the others and then met the NK to try to win back the Wall...? What if the last Hero was not AA? He killed/trapped her who created the Others under Winterfell in the crypts that are larger than the Castle itself? hmmm Just a thought.
  3. This initially confused me too...but I just put it down to Cersei feeling he betrayed her by letting Tyrion go, and perhaps for making an arrangement with Dany behind her back.
  4. Bran's half-time entertainment.
  5. They are 'activated' by the NK..... as shown at the end of Hardholme episode.
  6. Drogon is the father. It is known. Seriously though, Jaime is obviously the father as we saw them sleep together. She will prob use it to manipulate him, but in the end it will just be used as a plot point to make her death by him all the more upsetting for Jaime - and for us to witness.
  7. As with each other episode this season, the time lines are compressed immensely. The ship would have taken a few weeks most like.
  8. I would like to see Doran Martell as LF's Dornish contact
  9. Yeh... I don't recall the Long Night being caused by the Others though. Just that it is said that they came during the Long Night. Just watched a great video put out by Order of the Greenhand on this exact topic.....highly recommend as it is interesting and they put a lot of time into the theory.
  10. LOL.... thanks.
  11. It's okay lol...I thought it was really funny! These are the crazy things we do while waiting.
  12. We know from The World Of Ice and Fire that the Crypts are the oldest part, and that the first keep was built over them. We also know that they are larger than Winterfell itself. The crypts were what Winterfell are built on, which is why they never flattened /leveled the land. The fact that they are deeper and more unknown than we know is a mystery thus far, but we do know that if Bran the Builder built Winterfell on top of the crypts, and only started from a small keep, then it was built for a much more formidable reason than just a home. It was built to withhold some force....there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.
  13. I have been considering the identity of Dany for a little while, and I think that as Quaithe is telling her to remember who she is all the time we can safely assume she is not person she thinks she is. As R+L=J is so widely accepted it is often difficult to reconsider the idea, but I honestly think that Dany has a large chance of being the baby born at that tower, not Jon. (Yes, baby swap at Starfall) As this is not a post on the theory itself, I won't go into it in depth as it has been explained by others and it's easy to find great posts on the theory elsewhere. HOWEVER, I did want to share some thoughts in regards to Viserys on the topic, as the common points against the theory of R+L=D are 'what about Viserys knowing she is his sister? He tells her the story of her birth and hates her for killing their mother' etc. I think it could be likely he knew she was Rhaegars daughter, his temper, madness and obsession with being the rightful King only add to this....if only he had had a POV chapter! Let's say Dany is Rhaegars daughter with Lyanna, this means that Dany is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and ruler of Westeros. Think about how if Prince Charles (Rhaegar) in England dies before the Queen (Aerys), William (Dany) still inherits the crown, not Charles' (Rhaegar's) siblings. The male only heir is an important law to mention here, as we know that women didn't inherit, just men - but if Viserys was paranoid and obsessed then he was likely thinking that Dany would have him killed to steal the throne for herself, and the fact that he wanted the throne for himself makes him super determined to stop her ever claiming it. If she is his little sister he can marry her off, but if she is his niece and rightful heir to the throne then he isn't in a position to do that. By constantly overbearing her power and making certain she had no ideas of authority over him, he ensures she has no notion of her right to be Queen, of her true identity or her true birthright. And sure, he could just kill her off, but she presents a great bargaining tool and is viewed by him as an object of value to sell. Before he died Aerys names Viserys as his lawful heir, thinking that all Rheagar's children had died and he was the only remaining Targ heir. So, Viserys spends some time being told he is the heir, that he will be King and he is super pumped about it. Then, out of nowhere, a young Dany is brought to Dragonstone (or perhaps they met up in Dorne) to be raised with the remaining family, Viserys is told who she is, that she is the true heir etc. (I like to think that she came with her wetnurse - Ashara Dayne, as she had Jon she was able to be the wetnurse in disguise for Dany). Perhaps the Queen Rhaella was still alive at this time, perhaps she died birthing a stillborn, perhaps she was never pregnant at all. What if Viserys killed his mother because of her knowledge and support of Dany's birthright and identity? What if his resentment of her 'killing' her mother in childbirth wasn't the whole truth? What if he resented her for forcing him to take drastic measures to ensure she isn't told who she really is? What if he has lied to Dany her whole life about how she was born, who she is, what her position is and where she lived? What if they were taken to Dorne after the death of the Queen and Dany was told that it was somewhere else? The lemon tree may be in Dorne, but Dany may not know that she was in Dorne. Of course, it is likely also that this could have been done for obvious safety reasons to protect the kids. All these 'what if's could be reason's for his behaviour and bitterness. I feel like the argument for Dany being Rhaegar's child and heir by mentioning Viserys' actions and involvement in the story, to be somewhat backed up by his actions. He could very easily have been giving deliberate misinformation to Dany to push her down and keep her true identity from her. So in short, just wanted to put it out there, that Viserys involvement in the story regarding Dany's childhood is not really that concrete to use as an argument against the R+L=D theory. Personally, R+L=J is a pretty solid theory in my opinion, but the one bug I get is the 'Who is Dany?' .... I just don't think Quaithe tells her to remember who she is just for shits and giggles. It is important. I think R+L=D could still be on the table. Peace!
  14. I have been searching to no avail to find any discussion on the topic of Littlefinger and his potential scheming with Dorne as well as the Reach. Specifically, his possible trip to Dorne and orchestrating with the Tyrell's and Martell's to poison Joffery, Tywin and The Mountain. I will describe what I mean and if anyone has knowledge of a decent discussion please link me to it, or even better, post your thoughts and ideas (for or against) below - without being condescending please LOL. So we know that Lady Olenna was involved with LF to poison Joffery at his wedding. This is canon. We also know that Littlefinger left Kings Landing on The Merling King - and knew it was there, when it was leaving and that it was from Braavos (which LF tells Sansa is where his grandfather was from). What is left off-page is where he went between then and the Purple Wedding. Without going into the symbolism and discussion on blood oranges, we are given small excerpts from chapters that may link his journey together. First is the Sansa chapter in SoS 2 when they arrive at the Fingers. Clearly his household staff have not seen him in a very long time, and neither has Lysa, whom insists on immediately marrying him on the spot. After they arrive Sansa drinks some wine to settle her stomach, which tastes "of oak and fruit and hot summer nights (reminds me of Aerys Oakhearts description of Sunspear when he goes to meet Princess Arienne), the flavors blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun" (like the Tyrell's/Roses working together with the Martells/Suns). She is then presented with a platter of fruit, consisting of "apples and pears and pomegranates, some sad-looking grapes, a huge blood orange". As I mentioned, I am not going into the symbolism of the fruit here, but the origins of the fruit is notable. Firstly, blood oranges are from Dorne, as we know. As are pomegranates. Yes, Pomegranates are found elsewhere, like in Essos with Dany, but we can safely assume that LF did not cross the Autumn winds on the narrow sea and risk the trip missing Sansa's collection after the wedding. Given that these fruits are ripe and fresh and sweet, they are likely from Dorne, and very recently picked too. The "sad-looking" grapes may symbolize the attack of The Arbor and Redwyne fleet, but that is not the discussion here. If they came from The Arbor, they would be older than the fresh picked blood oranges and pomegranates. Second is the first Areo Hotah chapter in Feast. He describes how the blood oranges are over-ripe (again, this is not about their symbolism), which clearly shows that the season for them is ending and that these particular ones were not picked when they should have been to be exported freshest. Given the time that has past from when LF may have been there, it fits that these ones are now over ripe. Areo also describes a meal of Doran's where he drinks his sweet heavy strongwine. It may be that this is the same wine that Sansa drank but there appears no evidence. Although his meal is bread and savory, and Sansa's is bread and sweet fruits. I will note, however, that Sansa mentoins ONE blood orange, not many. It may be that LF took a personal few from Doran's trees, not a large harvested amount. Speculation. Thirdly I want to bring to attention the complete lack of F#[email protected] given by Lady Olenna at Tywin's funeral when talking to Cersei. She blatantly says that Tywin stank, and that she abhorred foul smells. She calmly tells Mace not to worry about Garth being refused the Master of Coin by Cersei, and just wants to see Margery wed to Tommen so she can leave. Olenna publicly shames Cersei in front of half the court by stating that Tywin clearly did not trust Cerei when it came to appointing offices of the state for the King: "it seems Lord Tywin did not share his plans with our Regent. I can't imagine why." The Tyrell's have no love for the Lannister's, they fought against Robert in the rebellion and the Lannister's killed the Targs. Then followed Renly against the Lannisters - until LF. They and the Martell's have that hatred for Lannisters in common and, as Oberyn tells Tyrion when he arrives in KL, he and Willis Tyrell were on good terms, and shared an interest in 'horse flesh'. I think she knew what was happening and is just 'keeping up appearances'. Her and LF and Doran have planned to take down the Lannisters root and stem, leaving only Cersei left open and vunerable. Then steps in the Sparrows - whom are likely aligned with Martell and Tyrell, as we see Margery is sent back to the castle until her 'trial', whereas Cersei is kept imprisoned and made to walk in shame. Not to mention the involvement of LF's Kettleblacks and Loras' feigned injuries. I wonder whether LF met with the Martell brothers before Oberyn left for the wedding, and plotted for Oberyn to poison Tywin, as Olenna poisoned Joffery. If Oberyn was named the suspect for either murder he would face the Mountain in trial by combat and poison him too, even if it meant his death. Doran does seem to expect the news that Oberyn died, he seems to wait an awfully long time before opening the letter, as if he expected the news. He is calm with the Sandsnakes, claiming it was legal and not murder, and then even tells Hotah that he hopes Tywin sees "what a loyal friend he has in Sunspear". This is perhaps to keep the appearance that Dorne are friends, as Doran can then move the Sandsnakes closer into position for the final blow without suspicion or war. If this is where LF was and what he planned, then there are most likely a lot of other hints the text could offer. Or not! But we do know that Doran was planning to get revenge on Tywin since the day of the sack. We may now know who his inside man is/was. Thoughts? TL;DR Littlefinger may have left KL and traveled to Dorne before picking up Sansa. He may have met with Doran and Oberyn and informed them of his plan with Olenna. Oberyn then conspires to poison Tywin too, and if he is accused of either poisoning it gives him reason to fight the Mountain and poison him also. LF was the one who brought the dwarves to the wedding feast, knowing that it would inflame Tyrion and that Joffery would most likely taunt Tyrion and enrage him. This allows for the possibility that when Joffery is poisoned, Cersei would immediately see the opportunity to blame Tyrion and finally have him killed. LF is very aware of Cersei's hatred for Tyrion, and impulsive nature.
  15. I never said he would be a more chaotic king, I said that his regency would be chaotic as it would mean Tyrell's and Lannister's fighting for more power and control during this time.
  16. I say Highgarden was where LF talked with LO as Tyrion recalls LF rode off for Bitterbridge, but at the Fingers he tells Sansa that he spoke to Mace and LO at Highgarden to "dicker for Margery's hand". Little confused by this bolded part you mean Harrenhal was merely a means to an end for him? (because if you meant Highgarden then I don't understand as LF was the one who prevented her marrying into Highgarden)
  17. This doesn't make sense to me, as LF was the one who had the letter sent to Cat that had her convince Ned to go to KL. Why would he not want Ned to go, yet have Cat convince him to go? I can't see any real evidence to suggest strongly that Joff had anything to do with Bran's assassination attempt honestly. He seems to not care about Bran, he says "The Stark boy is nothing to me", it is the wolves howling he complains about. When the Hound suggests he could silence Summer, Joff laughs and says "send a dog to kill a dog"....Tyrion later misremebers what he said and thinks he said "send a dog to kill a wolf" implying he meant Bran, but it is not how the conversation went at all. And Joff's comment about not being a stranger to Valyrian steel doesn't really mean anything. As the king's son he is likely to have seen some at some point, including Ned Stark's sword - that beheaded him at Joff's command. Joff says that dragonbone is too plain for a hilt, I think it is only in reference to his new sword's hilt. That dagger is likely to be of great value, and not only was the assassin handed it, but given a big bag of silver. I doubt a catspaw would have waited for weeks after everyone left Winterfell and then done the deed....he would have just made off with the goods and not risked the kill. It just doesn't add up to me. Putting a catspaw 'in motion', as you say, AFTER they have all left Winterfell anyway gives no reason to prevent Ned leaving. The dagger was claimed by LF to be his, then to Tyrion. But Jamie says Robert was boasting about it that night at the feast to rub Jamie's loss in his face. Renly and probably Robert are known to bet against Jamie. If it was in Robert's baggage chain up to Winterfell (even though he only ever used the hunting knife given to him by Jon Arryn), then it had to belong to Robert when it was taken for the assassination. It is a very obvious blade to anyone who knows what Valyrian steel and dragonbone look like, and would seem to frame Robert if it is discovered, or at least someone of high birth enough to own it. This does imply that a stupid Joff may have unknowingly hired a catspaw with it, but if he is "no stranger to Valyrian steel" or dragonbone, then he must have known what the dagger was. Just a few thoughts. I know some people have discussed that it may have been the work of Bloodraven for some reason, but I can't see why Bloodraven would want Bran dead. Other people have also discussed that it may have been the Great Other using people to murder Bran, to prevent him becoming teamed up with Bloodraven. But I have yet to subscribe to either of these theories. All I know is that if it were just a stupid, vicious Joffery who says he doesn't care about Bran, then it was badly written - as I said, it is unrealistic to assume that any desperate catspaw would wait around for weeks after the hirer has left, risking being found, and not just made off with the money and dagger. If he were the world's most honest catspaw, and was told to wait until they were well and truly gone before killing Bran, then nobody really has any reason to want Bran dead at that point but Cersei and Jamie who, according to their PoV chapters, had nothing to do with it.
  18. My opinion .. LF was given the idea when Tyrion told him he would offer him Harrenhal for convincing Lysa to take Marcella. He then arranges for Dontos to meet with Sansa immediately, as he now has the opportunity to take Sansa to the Vale with him. But it is all ruined when Tyrion is found to have lied to him about it all, so he goes to Highgarden to offer Joffery to Margery in order to get Harrenhal back on the table and be able to marry Lysa. His ability to continue his plan is totally dependent on whether the Tyrell's agree to the match. Now, of course the Tyrell's will agree to making Marg queen, however Joffery's reputation and character is a big red flag for LO. As you say, she is very intelligent, and she is most likely aware that Joff could mistreat Marg, not only causing Marg pain and suffering, but by potentially creating another kingslayer moment with Loras protecting her. Loras is cocksure and arrogant, and just like Jamie was at his age - meaning he could very well act impulsively when Margery is at risk. This set of very real possibilities would perhaps lead LO to the conclusion that if left to chance, Marg would produce an heir to the throne with a terrible father, and if that father is killed under whatever circumstance then the throne is unsecured, and a regency gives a chance for the Lannisters to manipulate it for their own gain again. There are many risks involved for LO by allowing Joffery to be left as king. In order for Marg to produce multiple heirs she would have to endure years of torment. But if Tommen were the husband then the risks are diminished greatly and Tyrell gets to produce many heirs to a more stable-minded father. I doubt the length of regency is as much an issue to LO then the stability of future heirs. If Loras interfered before an heir was produced, the whole deal is off, and she couldn't even marry Tommen after. I don't know how reliable her account of the tale is, but I do know that LO tells Sansa she refused to marry into the Targ family because of their maddness. If that is true, it stands to reason that she would want to prevent her granddaughter from doing the same. Given this, I find it reasonable that LO would have considered removing Joff before it could provide issues. The wedding is the perfect time - or before - as it allows the Tyrell's to secure Tommen without suspicion. Mace Tyrell would not need any convincing, but LF had to convince LO that marrying Joff is a good idea given his reputation. It may be possible that he spoke about Tommen to her also, and subtly put the idea forward. The idea that there was no reason for LF to remove Joff is not entirely true to me, as I think the idea that the Tyrells and Lannister's both struggling for the most power over the throne would be sure to cause tensions and be a very strained and chaotic relationship. Tommen being king needs guidance and more 'molding' than Joff, and the idea of the Tyrells and Lannisters both trying to be the more influential is bound to cause chaos in the longer regency. The hairnet is only then presented to Sansa the day LF is publicly rewarded Harrenhal, and Margery is officially betrothed to Joff so he now has his original plan secured. The wedding of Joff and Marg is now his chosen time. I think if he was planning on killing Tyrion, there is plenty of occasion to do it before the wedding, he has numerous catspaws to arrange it when he has left KL. If LO is involved there are plenty of less risky ways to do it rather than at the wedding in public. As you mentioned, she could have just carried the poison herself and poisoned him some other way, instead of relying on Sansa and the hairnet. But if Joff is to be killed, it is best to do it publicly to ensure there is no question raised implicating a Tyrell or LF - instead make someone else look Tyrion after his presented with the jousters JUST before the pie is brought forth. There is the high possibility that it is just pure luck Tyrion was able to be so easily framed, and that it may not have been the plan. We really don't know until the final books come out. But I do think there are plenty of reasons for LO to have wanted Joff murdered at that point in time.
  19. Let's look at the P.O.D. (Petyr, Olenna and Doran) conspiracy from both possible poisoning perspectives to see whether there might be any connections The Tyrion one first. Petyr obviously has the personal preservation motive - to hide his embezzling of the crown monies. Tyrion may appear to choke on his pie, so no one is blamed, but how does that provide Sansa the opportunity to escape? She would be either blamed or not but as she is seated right next to him she can not simply just run away, and she would be watched carefully following it. Oberyn can't really be blamed, as he is no where near the dais. Could it be pinned on anyone convincingly? I don't believe so. Petyr would most likely be acting alone (with Shae removing the gem when she put in in Sansa's hair, and then placing it the pie in the kitchens, for example) and no one else is aware of it. To tell Olenna or even Doran of his plan seems far too dangerous for LF to do, and he has no reason to. In order to do this he needs to be in a position where he can get messages to his catspaw/s without having them intercepted, so where could he be during his absence? Also, how did he know Joffery was murdered as soon as Sansa arrived? She came immediately from the wedding, and it didn't leave much time for another person - whom was unlikely to have been at the actual wedding - to row out to him first. Olenna has the motivation of removing Tywin's heir from inheriting northern power. LF created tension between the families by snitching on the Tyrell's to Tywin, and thus giving Sansa to Tyrion. It is unlikely Olenna knew about LF's meddling, but it served to lessen the stability of the union further. Olenna has no love for any Lannister, so removing Tyrion from Tywin's plans is not likely to be a problem for her. Nor does it threaten Margery's position. Also, it leaves Tywin without a male heir. I don't believe she would act alone in this while doing it so publicly as placing the stone in Tyrion's pie. There is too much risk at being caught, and Tyrion was watching the pie the whole time. He watched the server place it in front of him, and then spoon the cream on top. IF she had taken the stone from Sansa's hairnet then how did it get into the pie? It didn't get put there when it was served, as Tyrion was looking at it, and why would someone (say, Garlan) place it in the pie as Tyrion is getting up to leave with Sansa? If he is leaving why bother? The poison had to be put in the pie before it was served. I don't see anyway for a Tyrell to do this from the dais. Doran has a similar motivation for wanting Tyrion dead. Remove Tywin's power from the north, and his heir as well. There is no connection to Doran is this scenario as far as I can tell, as Oberyn has nothing to do with the hairnet, nor the pie. Neither Olenna nor Petyr would have any reason to tell the Martell's about any plot to kill off Tyrion, and I don't see Oberyn using a catspaw to poison someone. The Joffery one. Petyr has chaos as his motivation, and by killing the King he throws the realm into a longer regency under Cersei. This however is not a certainty, as Tywin is still alive, and is just as likely to send Cersei back to the Rock and assume the Regency himself. The only reason I see for him acting alone in this is to create a diversion to remove Sansa, and thus frame her for the murder. It also would frame Tyrion as her husband (as Tyrion thinks to himself in his cell, that no one would believe either he or Sansa would have acted alone without the other being complicate). This allows him to take Sansa in the confusion, remove Tyrion from the game and kill off Joffery. To act alone, however, he would need to have Shae remove the stone, and then have a server place it in the chalice, and I find this unlikely. Olenna has the motive to remove Joffery and marry Margery to Tommen, a more promising King (this is also a motive for Tywin actually, as after his whole life working towards having a Lannister on the throne, he ends up with Joffery - who is a lot like The Mad King). Olenna is mosy likely aware that Cersei will be sent away or married off, and Tywin will be Regent, thus creating a more stable environment for her family. It also means that someone will be blamed for the murder, and the likely suspects are Oberyn Martell or Tyrion. As Oberyn is no where near them this seems unlikely as an expected patsy. It may be that she saw the opportunity when it arose and knew Tyrion would be perfectly positioned to take the blame. Again, this removes Tywin's male heir and the Lannister hold on Winterfell/the north through Sansa. I doubt she would have any reservation at Sansa being blamed along with Tyrion at this point, as she may just want to diminish Tywin's power hold. To pull this off she must needs remove the stone from the hairnet and place it in the chalice. This requires her to know about the hairnet through LF, and to inform Margery of it to ensure she doesn't drink from it beyond that point. She can not do this alone, and so there must be a LF/Olenna connection here. She had to have done it when the pie was being cut. Doran and Oberyn already have Marcella, and the discussion about crowning Marcella in Dorne had already transpired. Doran seems to not be ready for that all out war, as Tywin is still full strength. Doran claims to have told Oberyn about 'taking measure of the boy king' and finding friends in court, but Oberyn's true intentions seem to be of vengeance. If Oberyn was intent on fighting the Mountain he may have been expecting a trial at some point. He can not just walk up to him start a war between the throne and Dorne by killing him without due cause. Was he expecting it would be after he poisoned Tywin that it would happen? Was he aware that someone else may perhaps need a champion after Joffery's poisoning? We know that Doran has friends at Court, so how much did they know before arriving? I don't think there is any real evidence to connect the Martell brothers to the poisoning at the PW itself, but the relationship between Tyrell and Martell is not as negative as it once was in the past if Oberyn is to be believed. Even Mace Tyrell claims he has no issue with Doran, it is Oberyn he has issue with, for hurting Willas I think. Olenna constantly calling Mace an oaf seems to say to me that if there were a form of alliance between the families against House Lannister, Mace would not necessarily be a part of that understanding. The fact that Tyrell was the main support for Renly (before LF arrived at Highgarden), and Renly was expecting Dorne to join him is very telling to me. Dorne had no reason to support Renly as a Baratheon nor Joffery as a Lannister. They had no reason to get involved at all, yet Renly tells Catelyn otherwise. It seems there was some agreement between Dorne and the Reach prior to LF arriving at Highgarden, if LF discovered this he may have used that to his own advantage and fed each side information about the other to get what he wants. It seems to me that if Tyrion was the intended recipient of the poison, then it had to be Petyr acting alone with perhaps Shae, as there is seemingly no other way for the poison to get there unless it was placed there prior to arriving on the dais. But this leaves it highly unlikely that Sansa would have an opportunity to escape unnoticed, as she is his wife, sat next to him and will be watched or even blamed. When LF asks Sansa if anyone said her hairnet was crooked and straightened it for her during the night, it seems very exact to me- not that someone touched it, but the reason why they did. If this was in fact the case of LF acting alone however, I see no reason that there would be a P.O.D. conspiracy surrounding the poisoning, and any conversations he had with the Tyrells were of no consequence but to create friction between the two Houses. If Joffery was the intended recipient, then there must be collusion between at least Olenna and Petyr. To know about the hairnet she must have been told. It also implies that Margery was informed to a degree, as to avoid the cup. Given that LF and Olenna may have had these discussions, it begs the question as to how much do the Martell's know, and what is the purpose of the previous alliance? If Olenna is trusting a sly man like LF, would she trust Doran Martell? All LF need do is tell Tywin and it is all over for her, I mean, she already tried to sneak off with Sansa. I think she would need more assurance than just LF's word. Why trust LF alone in something so important? I don't think she would, she would need to have something far more reassuring than that to go ahead with regicide.
  20. Nah, I think talking about the poisoning is a great contribution to the topic. After all, it is pretty much what I raised the question around. You raise some top points about who the poison was meant for and why it happened. One big reason for me that I felt there could be a connection between the three groups, is the timing of all the poisoning happening around the PW. If we look at it from a different angle, that LF used Shae to poison Tyrion's pie and remove the threat he would uncover all LF's plotting, then we would need to find a good reason for him to involve anyone else. I am not certain he would directly tell the Tyrells nor Martells about his plan - that would be potential suicide! But both families do have reason for wanting Tyrion removed (Olenna for Tywin stealing Sansa's claim to the North away from them, and Doran for destroying Tywin's ambition to spread Lannister power all throughout the realm). Neither are directly about Tyrion himself, but his position as Sansa's husband means he is the target. I will return again to my comment about Petyr being out in the bay on the ship. He could not have just been sitting idle for a month, Sallador Saan pirating, and the traders would want to be trading. He must have been somewhere, and somewhere to have messengers reach his people in Kings Landing. If, IF, he had been in Dorne, then messages may have passed between Doran and Oberyn without anyone else reading them. If not by raven, then someone would have to be traveling on foot, or he used trading galleys to transport his messengers to his people. Given LF actively created tension between Tyrell and Lannister (snitching on them marrying Sansa to Wiilas and informing on Joffery's mistreatment of Sansa), it could be to the favour of Doran Martell. The problem I have with him being the one to poison Tyrion, not Joffery, is his proximity to KL when it happened, and his need for messages to reach him in a timely fashion. He was waaay out in the bay when Sansa reached him. Hours out. The bells could no longer be heard. Yet one of the first things LF says to her is "He sold you for a promise of ten thousand dragons. Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffery's death." LF knew Joffery was dead. I find it highly unlikely he was told before hand, as he was so far out and on a ship no raven would find. Of course I don't know for certain, but I find it hard to see how that would happen.
  21. Yeh that makes sense to me if it were true that they were hired. Varys keeps a close eye on Shae, but he also tells Tyrion he doesn't understand how he could be so stupid as to act like such a fool about her.
  22. I noticed on a re-read a seemingly throw-away thought Sansa has in the Godswood after the wedding....that she wished Shae were there to help her with the hairnet. This implies Shae put it in for her initially, giving her the opportunity to remove a stone....and Shae worked in the kitchens, knew the servers etc. She was pissed at not being able to attend...then is found with Tywin the night before Tyrion is to be executed. Is there any possibility she was given the task of poisoning someone (most likely Tyrion)? Could LF have got the Kettleblacks to convince her in return for something?
  23. So I just read the sample chapter for Sansa "Alayne", and I had some thoughts I wanted to share. Obviously at this stage we are only speculating on which way Sansa's journey may go, so here are my thoughts. It is interesting at this point to think about which direction GRRM may take her arc, I would like to see some of these things happen for her. Given that Harry the Heir is going to be jousting, and Alayne has refused him her favour to wear, I wondered whether there will be a throwback to a past tourney. At Ned's tourney at KL, Jon Arryn's squire is killed by a lance throught the throat, he was an important person to Ned's investigation and he was killed. In Sansa II GoT, she thinks "The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn who's name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; There would be no songs sung for him. That was sad." In contrast to this knight, at the tourney there was Ser Loars Tyrell, whom she was besotted with and cheered him on, even receiving a red rose from him after he won. She later dreams of marrying him, and how happy she would be - before she learned that life was not a song. Fast forward to the sample chapter, and we have her at another grand tourney, this time she appears to be in the opposite situation. She is not highborn but a bastard. Rather than being quiet, shy and giddy, she is very social. She dances a great deal, is very mindful and even has the confidence to openly flirt with Harry the Heir, charming him with her wit and teasing him with sexual innuendos. Rather than hoping for attention from her potential 'knight in shining armor', she has his undivided attention. He even wants to wear her favour. But unlike her desire for Loras to do so, she refuses him - obviously as recommended by LF. It would be an interesting throwback, if it came to pass that HtH were to be killed in the tourney the same way the squire had at Ned's tourney, perhaps by the knight wearing her favour (as opposition to the Mountain killing the squire). HtH is very important to her plans with LF, and we would have total chaos after. The opposite to the squire in relation to herself though, he is not a "nothing to her" stranger, he is everything she has ever hoped for, and her ticket home. But "there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad." may again have relevance. Now if that were to happen, it would be bedlam. Robert would be the only Vale heir, and everyone would be beside themselves. A perfect opportunity for Ser Shaddrick to kidnap Sansa, if you recall his comment to her when asked if he will join the melee event “A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?” I would expect him to become aware of her identity and the killing of HtH is the perfect opportunity to take advantage of that. Let's say he then escapes - with Sansa - to the Mountain Pass, where we have the Mountain Clans. As there is snow in the mountain pass, the journey is not likely to move quickly, and the possibility of getting lost is there. But the clansmen know the mountains, so it would be likely they cross them and threaten to kill them. Now we have a cool possibility that I reeeally would like to see. Sansa tells them who she is, the Halfman's wife. They then recognize her, kill her captures and take her to safety. Given that they appreciate Tyrion, and hate his family for turning them all away after the Blackwater, and refusing to thank them and pay them for their service, they would most definitely be on her side opposing the Lannisters. It can be assumed they would trust her word as the Halfman's wife. It mirrors what Jon is attempting with integrating the Wildlings into the North by having her make pacts between the KotV and the clansmen. Sansa knows, through Lysa's rantings that LF had a part to play in Jon Arryn's death, and likely the downfall of her family. If she were to take this opportunity to dispose him of his position she could. Given there would be no HtH, only sweetrobin, who loves her and does anything she days, Sansa is in a strong position to take charge of the Vale, as Lysa's niece and maybe at Sweetrobin's command. If she were to be escorted to the Bloody Gate by the Clansmen, let her true self be known and have LF called out, her position would be strong to allow her to tell of his crimes - Lysa's murder - and take him into custody, thus having the support of all the Mountain Clans, and the knights of the Vale. This means her identity is okay to be exposed as she has a large army at her command. Whether she would marry Sweetrobin for the power depends on whether she has learned enough from LF to play the Game or not, and whether she chooses to play the Game or not. It would be awesome to have her army take back the Riverlands and Riverrun. Then, once Stannis clears Moat Cailin, she makes her way back home to Winterfell, thus uniting Stannis' army, the mountain clans, the knights of the Vale, the conspirators against the Boltons and the Riverland Lords. Sweetrobin may even make him fly.... although the Eyrie is shut now do... Just some fun ideas on where her plotline might go. She needs to start doing something soon before the books end LOL. I hope to see her storyline tie back in with other main characters. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thoughts?