Widowmaker 811

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Everything posted by Widowmaker 811

  1. Abel/Mance was a guest of the Boltons.
  2. It was a violation of guest rights. Mance Rayder and the women with him are guilty. Now, they were acting on Jon's orders to go get his sister. Whether you can blame Jon indirectly depends on a couple of factors. Can we hold Tywin responsible for Gregor's murder of Princess Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon? Gregor was acting under Tywin's command. I think so. Therefore, Jon has to take part of the blame because it was him who released Mance and sent him on this mission. Mance would not be at Winterfell if it were not for Jon's orders to fetch his sister. Yeah, it is a violation of guest rights and Mance is guilty. Jon Snow is partly to blame because he sent Mance. Winterfell no longer belongs to the Starks, if you believe in the right of conquest. It has nothing to do with decency. It has to do with laws and customs. Robb is an oathbreaker and offended the Freys. Did that make it alright for the Freys to violate guest rights?
  3. You and I see the situation differently and that is a tribute to Martin. This is war. Make no mistake that what happened and what is happening there in Meereen is war. Let's look at wars that have been conducted within the novels. Arrogant Robb Stark declared rebellion. Do you think the fact that the vast majority of the people who will get killed are innocent? Did it stop him from going to war to obtain justice for his family and his father? People who have nothing to do with the Lannisters or the Starks will die. Did it stop Robb? Dany's cause is way more important than that of Stark wanting to avenge the family patriarch. Stannis Baratheon attacked King's Landing to support his claim to the throne. Did the fact that many innocent people, the very people that he wants to rule over, will die stop him from going forward to support what he sees as his entitlement to the throne? Dany's cause, to help slaves become free men and women, is more important from a moral perspective than Stannis Baratheon's fight to support his claim. Catelyn Stark knew how Lord Tywin would react if she takes Tyrion Lannister into custody. Did it stop Catelyn from pursuing justice for her son even though it would result in the deaths of the truly innocent? It did not. Is Catelyn's cause to pursue justice for one little boy more important than a hero's quest to help slaves become free? I don't think so. Jon Snow tried to get his sister away from Ramsay Bolton even when he knew it could result in the deaths of many people. He knew that if found out, the Boltons would attack the wall and put his innocent Crow brothers in danger. Not to mention disrupt their mission to fight the Others. It didn't stop Jon. Do you believe Dany's mission to help put an end to the slave trade that has taken away the lives of millions of people and will continue to do so until stopped is less important than Jon's mission to help one little sister? It is not. Dany's mission is clearly more important. Listen, is it possible that some of those masters who were crucified were innocent? I don't think so. They were willing participants in the trading and owning of slaves. They signed off on nailing those kids to the cross in an attempt to demoralize a war opponent. But very well, for our discussion, let us assume that a few of those who were executed were innocent of the specific act of nailing those kids to the cross. That is a very narrow window, but let's roll with it for now. Are these men less deserving of death than the small folk that died from Robb's Rebellion? I don't think so. Who is more innocent, the Crow brothers who will face the wrath of the skin doctor because of Jon's meddling in Bolton affairs or these men who have been slavers during their entire lives? The Crow brothers who will die and the Bolton servants who died because of Jon's choices are more deserving of mercy than these masters. Ramsay is an amateur compared to these masters. Are these slave masters who were executed more deserving of the finer points of justice than the men, women, and children who died during Stannis Baratheon's attack on King's Landing? Many who are truly innocent, who have no stake at all in who puts their rump on the throne, died that day. All I am saying is, the finer points of determining guilt or innocence for a very specific, very narrowly-defined act, is far from normal in those primitive times. Daenerys Targaryen was actually very reasonable with her judgment. Think how Stannis punished his own men for cannibalism on the already dead. Mind you, it was his ambition that put them in that predicament in the first place. You don't see too many fans bashing Stannis for that decision. How did Jon Snow punish a sworn brother, a brother who was cleansed of his past crimes when he took his vows, because the man was disrespectful. The Old Bear gave Jon a break for a crime that he could have taken the young wolf's head for. Like Ned took Gared's. Why couldn't Jon show the same forgiveness to Slynt, when he himself was the beneficiary of mercy? I am not condemning Robb, Catelyn, Stannis, and Jon. I am only saying that compared to those people, Daenerys Targaryen's decisions have been more responsible and her cause to help people become free is a very good one. It is alright to criticize a character's actions, but we have to put their actions in context with those of the other characters. Comparing Dany's decisions to the ones made by Robb, Jon, Catelyn, and Stannis makes her look very reasonable. Peace man, and let's keep the discussion civil. It's fine to reach different opinions. We are all biased towards one character. I know I am.
  4. She's getting closer. By the way, people would have stopped buying insurance policies if the old man was a swindler. The fact that he had customers meant he was a good businessman who provided good customer service. Word gets around. He would have had no customers if the old man was dishonest.If anything, it was a business competitor who "paid" for the assassination. There are requirements and obligations on both sides when it comes to insurance coverage. It is very possible that the covered party was in violation of the terms and lost his right to a claim. The fact that it was an assassination by a cult instead of an arrest by the proper authorities meant that the old man was innocent.
  5. You are giving a poor analogy. In the case of the slave masters, simply belonging to that group means they are all oppressors and slavers. That is guilt by doing, guilt by active participation. Politicians are elected, public servants from any walk of life. They are not committing atrocities simply by being who or what they are. The Masters commit atrocities every day. Each and every day they own slaves and continue the practice of slavery is an act of cruelty and oppression.
  6. Correct. There are no innocents among the masters. They have been guilty of atrocities for so long. To let the deaths of those children go unpunished would have been tragic. Those masters were all guilty. I am sure they ordered their overseers to do the job. It is hard to climb up on the cross while wearing the tokar. But they were all guilty because they ordered it and signed off on it. They have committed enough cruelty that they deserved death a thousand times over. Wearing the tokar is a sign of their status as the oppressors of other men and their support of slavery.
  7. I agree. Baelish took advantage of the stupidity, pride, and emotional weaknesses of the main players. Jaime and Cersei could not wait and took a risk in Winterfell. Catelyn had to have justice for one son at the expense of thousands. Tywin could have cared less whether Tyrion was guilty of attempted murder on Bran, he was going to kill thousands for his family's honor. Ned was going to support his wife even if it meant many thousands could die. Robert was too inept to deal with his wife. Robb chose war instead of peace. All that being said, I like Baelish a little bit because he guided the conflict along to make sure the Tullys, the Baratheons, and the Starks are taken down. All three are families that I do not care for. To me, all Baelish need do is toss Sansa from the moon door and he will get my vote to replace the Arryns as the lead house of the Eyrie.
  8. Look, if you want to compare someone to the nazi you have to look at the slave Masters in Essos and the Ghiscari upper class. Their terrorists arm, the Harpy, is the equivalent of the klan. The people of Westeros are not a good comparison.
  9. Better than losing his head. I say take his affectionate young wife and his silver out of town. Walda's weight in silver would equate to a small chest of coins. Enough to live on.
  10. Walder and the Freys broke guest rights. Roose was a guest who fought another guest. I am sure that is not looked on kindly but Roose was not the host. All he has to say, the Starks and the Freys went at it, I had to choose a side and defend myself.
  11. Robb himself was an outlaw. He was a rebel.
  12. It will force the Tyrells to reconsider their support for Renly. All they want in this is to keep the kingdom whole. The Ironborn will only agree to support Robb if it meant their independence.
  13. It's Reznak mo Reznak. The man is a Harpy supporter. He advised Dany not to kill her hostages. He even goes too far when he claimed the murders were the mischief done by lowborn poor people when it was clearly the work of the Harpy.
  14. It is an unflattering look. That is why they called her horseface. I'm not claiming she won't grow out of it. I'm only saying as things stand during her youth at Winterfell, Arya was not a cute kid. I don't know what others mean when they critique Arya. I am only saying she was not a cute kid. She may grow out of it and end up not looking like Mr. Leno.
  15. I was on another fan site not too long ago and the ones who like Jon are worried. George already said Rings could have been better had Gandalf stayed dead. Jon dying and staying dead would greatly improve the story for me but his fans see things differently. I don't want another Snow Flake pov. So yeah, there is truth to this and I am a little guilty too. If I could beg George to kill Jon, I would certainly do so. People's insecurities probably affect who some of the fans root for. There is truth here. I suppose an intelligent, beautiful woman like Dany will make more than a few feel a little less good about themselves. I am guy though and I like Dany a lot. See my convo with Zandru.
  16. I am inclined to think she is horsefaced. Sansa and Jeyne were full of themselves, Sansa is on the extreme side of selfish, but taunting for the sake of taunting is not her style. There is more than a little bit of truth to the horseface reference.
  17. It's more than having a long face. She is called horseface.
  18. Damn, this is good. It's all for nothing though. Roose is never gonna get a fair trial if the Starks ever rise to power again. If I were Roose, I would take my Walda's weight in silver and take an extended vacation in Pentos.
  19. Bran is far worse! I grant you, skin changing Hodor is abusive and unethical. Arya murdered a man who had done her no wrong. What Arya did is worse than a lapse in ethics.
  20. Nobody is doubting her feelings of affection for her family. That is partly the problem. She wants to kill everybody that she feels have wronged her family. We're talking about a person who took the trouble to enroll in a school for murderers so she can learn how to kill. The girl is too focused on revenge. I agree with you.
  21. IMO, Arya is willing to destroy a whole lot of innocent lives in order to exact her vengeance on the people that she believes have wronged her family. She's very messed up. I know she has witnessed a lot of violence, but I cannot excuse her actions because a lot of other children have witnessed violence against their loved ones and they have not taken the path of revenge like Arya has. In all fairness, the other children who have seen their families victimized do not usually take the road to darkness like Arya has. Allow me to admit, I am not a fan of Arya and that makes it easy for me to see her flaws.
  22. Loras may not be as shiny on the inside as he portrays on the outside. Unless I am mistaken, did he not cheat against Gregor?
  23. For most rulers, I say no. For her, it is possible. She has the followers of R'hllor on her side and religion is a powerful tool. The story may indeed go in that direction. Honestly, there will not be much to rule over in the west. There will be little incentive for a hunting and gathering people to unite and follow one leader. I don't see too much in the way of civilization continuing in the west if the winter lasts for more than a few years.