Protagoras

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  1. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Not sure either - maybe this one: Or this one?
  2. Reach Noble House Scenario

    I wouldn´t say threatening...more like that "rumors of this will spread from this, your grace. And my servants are very unhappy. I think it might be only a matter of time before this will reach, so to speak". And then hint that I might be able to stem these troublesome things, but "due to the dishonor my house has suffered from this (after all, the even has taken a dent), I am not going to do so free of charge...but we might be able to reach a beneficial deal for both parties".
  3. Reach Noble House Scenario

    First, my first son is a fool and a bad loser and I can´t tolerate that. I will most certainly refuse his request and threaten him if he keeps it up. I implore him to show good sportsmanship and make it clear that I could make his brother my hier if I wished to (and of course make it clear that if he by some chance would end up replacing his brither in some magical way, he is no longer my heir). And if Lord Alaric withdraw from the negotiations because of Marlos bad tournament (because come on! It is just a social game in order to meet up with the peers from time to time) then he doesn´t look like the patient, trustworty and valuable ally I was looking for. As for my daugther, I don´t see a problem with her being an interest of several men. My daughter is young, single and beautiful, let her enjoy the interest and the honor from whoever crowns her queen of love and beauty. However, such crowning is far from a marriage and in order to agree on such a marriage I am willing to hear what the different parts have to offer (and so far I have heard no concrete suggestions). Who is willing to cash up the most and/or give me the best support. Certainly, my daughter´s opinion is important as well, but in the end I will take real offers into consideration and use many parameters, not just one. And neither of the two candidates has actually expressed an interest to marry her nor of sufficient status for me to go "Oh, wow". As usual when it comes to these issues, I should have time to wait. And then the rape...the biggest problem is that Ferric has decided to take this into his own hands (or own cock, depending on your outlook). But I am lord of this territory! I have the right to decide who is getting raped and who is not! I have pit and gallows here, and the Gardeners fealty does not mean that they run my territory. I separate Ferric from his victim, if he resists he goes into my jail, if not then he will follow me under guard to Gordon, where I describe what happened and implore Gordan to punish him. I also make it clear that in order for me to stay silent (because, I have heard Lord Alaric Hightower would like that kind of gossip) my house needs compensation because of the severe violation performed by house Gardener. Suitable compensation involves cash, land, titles, less tax and so on. Then I give Becca and her family alot of money (from their perspective) as compensation.
  4. Why women don't take black

    Not the Silent sisters necessary but similiar organizations. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2015/06 "George was asked what options female criminals had to avoid execution -- they can't take the black, but was there an accepted thing they could do otherwise? George did mention there were "various" female orders of septas and the likes, and then he focused in particular on the silent sisters, which he specifically called them a "mystic order" who take vows of silence and tend to the dead". It is very clear from this that there are other orders apart from the sisters that DO take criminals and that the sisters are more focused on since it might be seen as the "upper class" choice (which is the people we follow in the series - the 1%). Marla Sunderland was sent there after her crime of rebelling against the Targs and she was noble. Edit: To quote your quote of Barristan "It is,” Arstan said, when the question was put. “There are many such orders". As you found youself, you are wrong about the tongues, but I do not doubt that it is for life (with maybe some exceptions). My point is that it is a better option, less harsh and more forgiving than the Wall. And that said reason for this is based on sexism - women get preferential treatment, since it is seen as less ok to execute them or mutilate them in comparison to menfolk. We see this all the time. Sure, that whore Tarly judged will not like that lye in her crotch, but it certainly beats getting 7 of your fingers chopped off. And I don´t doubt that Argella Durrandon disliked being stripped naked, escored to the person who killed her dad and was more or less forced to marry him. But the other option, which would have been forced on a man, was death. Argella Durrandon is no victim. She was stupid to resist the Targs instead of negotiationg after her fathers death (which could in theory have made her a lady paramount) but in comparison with the Harren Hoare (who also defied) she came off easy and should be happy that her head is attacked to her body. The silent sisters are also not only an option for poor people, but a way to enforce patriarchy. A woman might be sent there because she is to stubborn or that she needs to get rid off (again, where they had executed the males instead). Certainly, living in a cloister enviroment is not a dream job, but it beats being dead and it beats having no future. In contrast, the Wall takes away your future. And you get sent there because you have committed a crime. It stands to reason that a cloister is less harsh. “Which brings us back to the five remaining daughters of Elys and Alys. The eldest had been left terribly scarred by the same pox that killed her sisters, so she became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy.” The woman in the quote above decided that she had no other choices than the sisters. I doubt many people think that way of the Wall.
  5. Why women don't take black

    The "right" is that you are allowed to do so if you please. ie - it is forbidden for one sex to join = a sexist structure. And sexism is seen by many, including me as a bad thing. That very few women would like to join such a structure is irrelevant. The issue is that they can´t from a gender perspective.It´s one (of many) roadblocks in the way for equality. Edit: See it like this - if a man get sentenced he get a choice between death and the Wall. A woman would only have the choice of death, and suddenly those rape risks sounds less bad. Most people do prefer living. Now, what Westeros also have is another sexist organization known as the Silent sisters and similiar, which gives women a much better option than the wall. So, of course women in Westeros wouldn´t want equality in this, since they already get preferential treatment on this issue.
  6. Why bother, it is very clear that Devilish A. Doesn´t get or want to get our objection and B. Yet still wonder why Doran won´t act like he think he should (despite getting it explained over and over again). He has received an answer and are unable to see Dorans perspective. Thats his issue.
  7. Why women don't take black

    Many factors. Few women are willing to be in an enviroment that put them into risk of being raped and many males have this strange idea that they have to protect women from bad things, regardless of said womans choice or not. In addition, this force are supposed to exist for a single task and women increases the odds of relationship and focusing on them as a couple. Not that homosexuality is unknown of, but it is less common and have very, very low chance of offspring to put it mildly. And tbh, would women freely choose the Nights watch if said organization more or less said this, with a Randall Tarly approach "Fine, you can join - but its on you. If you get raped, you are to blame for it and are supposed to deal with that yourself. Otherwise you are not tough enough. And we will not execute necessary personnel to adapt to your needs." (Remember Victarions "help" to his Measter - I think he pretty much is representative for the majority here). Because thats most likely the best deal they can get in this setting. Nor will the pool be large, since most women will follow the tradition and norms and act in a feminine way, as their society teaches them to do. And of less muscular strength as well. But the biggest issue is that few are there by their own choice. They had to often choose between that and death. And it is very hard to teach people who had no choice in the first place to really accept rules that forbid them to do stuff and take their new job with valor and honor. And tbh - this is logical. If I had been taken to the wall as a death sentence, I would have been pretyy lenient about killing and raping too. After all, this society have treated me like shit, sending me here because some noble thought that deer in the forest was his and not mine - why should I respect rules said society have ordered. So, no - I think the westeros mentality and the structure of the watch completely works against this.
  8. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Have little amount of time, but yeah - we do seem to be mostly in agreement, apart from Tyrion being a consort of Daenerys and maybe something more.
  9. North Noble House Scenario

    First, why would Ned need me to make a formal complaint? My uncle is found flayed in the woods - I expect the Starks to dispense justice without me holding their hand for moral support. And why exactly am I fiercly loyal? The Starks have stolen us from the Boltons, my family now pays for it and they want us to take more initiative? Get your ass of that chair, you lazy bastard and start doing your job as overlord! We have served and bled for you and the North. We demand protection from the situation that YOU, the Starks, placed us in! And why is the Boltons punishing us exactly? We served them loyally until the Starks took us away from them. Blame them. At least Roose seem to understand that he was mistaken. Good, neutrality is all we Maulins want. To be left alone after this disaster of a war. I am also questioning Jon Snows letter and wonder why a lord commander of the nights watch has any business enforcing his will over the Boltons as well as other houses. I am willing to give him a cure, but only if he stay at the watch where he belongs. Indeed, I have heard rumors about walkers, unnatural beings in the North from some wildling scum I executed recently and I do wonder if Jon Snow should focus on that enemy instead of weakening the North with his assaults on our Lord Paramount. And those wildings spoke of him as their leader almost - I hope Jon Snow is well aware that if he is involved in sending down wildlings south, then he should be justly executed. In fact, who is in that army he attacked with since both wildlings as well as black brothers are forbidden south of the wall? I am curious about Jon Snows response. As for the alliance, I am wondering why I - a neutral lord should do the recruiting? Shouldn´t those actually inside said alliance do that? Yet, Dreadfort is a grand reward but not sufficient since it will cost me two sons (No way the crown will accept ransoms from northern rebels). I state my neutral case and repeat that we Maulins are here to serve the North - not special interests. But we might reconsider later, depending on rewards of course, in order to "reduce hostlities". But the idea that we should sacrifice ourself, our land and our smallfolk who look for us for support in order for the Starks to thrive is ludicrus.Again, why am I fiercly loyal? At best, I am willing to negotiate about a later entry when the risk is less. In return, I demand that they pay my sons ransom now, before the war starts and that we can discuss rewards and war when he has been returned to me. And Arya make me realize one thing - we are over our heads. I tell her that I see little reason to risk my land and smallfolk on some promises a stranger gives me. In general, I will lay very low in the coming conflict, doing nothing and swear loyalty to the winner. My family has suffered enough. If the Starks win, they will by default help me with revenge, Ramsey and the marriage by simply killing those individuals off. If the Boltons win, then I have not painted a big, fat target on myself.
  10. I think it would come down to who he ask to do it, what reasons he have for it, if he does it in public or private and most importantly - the strength of the lannister soldiers. Certainly the Kingsguard should listen and obey, but as we hve seen from Jaime "I think I can dictare what my king is allowed to do" Lannister, this might not always be the case. Then again, Mandon Moore hade no qualms with killing Tyrion (and I am convinced that order came from Joffrey as well). As for gold cloaks, I doubt they would. Some might, but others would be too scared of what Tywin would do. Last time he showed up, they got sacked. And Lannister troops are sort of "supposed" to obey Tywin before their king. Another big issue is that Joffrey isn´t a grown-up nor have ruled for a long time. People tend to respect "ruling years" when it comes to kings. Then again, if Tywin act in a way to everyone that he is crazy - the likelyhood thart people will try, increases due to public support.
  11. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    It is certainly possible that Bran can do that by religious means, but due to that he is also a warg and maybe could reveal himself to Jon through a "shared wolf dream" I think it is more likely it will happen in more of a direct communication sort of way. A combination of his two powersets if you will. Or, simply that Bran somehow run into him and tell him then. Jon has certainly an identity as a Stark but he has been curios for the truth about his mother a long time now and when he find out about Brans abilities, he might just ask him. Yup, and I don´t necessery think if they were married or not will have a plot significance. Daenerys will know that A. Jon is their kid and B. That they loved eachother. Assuming that she is not hostile to Jon and the North due to some north supremacy shit, I don´t think Daenerys is going to really care about a possible marriage or not. She might see the intent in her vision. Wherether or not they were married legally might not even be touched upon at all. But (and this is why I commented this thread initially) this doesn´t mean he is necessary trueborn. In general I think people misinterpret the "Bastards should not hurt princes"- dialogue. That Jon is a "prince" is more a hint of his secret identity, hidden in the North while Joffrey is a bastard, also with a secret identity. And if Rhaegar had won at Trident, then maybe Jon had been trueborn. Still, I do wonder if we will ever see any real proof. We might see visions from Daenerys where we see baby Jon with Rhaegar, but will we really see a wedding scene? And if we see a wedding scene - will it be legal. Certainly, Rhaegars intent might have been that, but he is not king and in no position to change the rules. So we might have a "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it does it make a sound" situation. After all, a ceremony of this scale need witnesses. In all the other marriages we see, there are people who can testify. And can Rhaegar even do this without Aerys consent? If we have had scenes like this, there might have been reason to speculate on a possible marriage but the Jon-crowd tend to make things up, regardless of what is in the books. I have been speculating for a while that one of Daenerys dragons (not Drogon) are not long for this world, possibly connected to Euron and his plot or Aegon do something to one that triggeres their war. I doubt GRRM will give Daenerys 3 superweapons when she invades. As for the riders, I think Jon is indeed the one close to death. Jon will be changed when he returns. Darker, less moral. More "wolflike" if you will. GRRM is not going to give him that resurrection for free and as you said, undead kings do strike me as an unlikely ending. It has been speculated if Daenerys will go dark, but she has always have some darker streaks of anger and justice in her. it wouldn´t be much of a twist. If anyone should go full sith, Jon is by far the best, most shocking and most interesting suggestion. A slow walk, of course where Jon do more and more questionable choices and dies as the enemy he initially tried to stop do pack a strong punch. As for Tyrion and Daenerys, they can both certainly die. Tyrion because he is GRRMs favorite (which increases his chances of death - not decreasing it. His opinions about Rowling do say alot about this) and because his near-experiences with it. Daenerys because, GRRM want to do a more tragic ending and because when people have done their arc, they tend to die. The childbirth death would certainly tie her story together.
  12. Of course he can. And he will blame the victor, since the loser will be dead and gone. If aerys had won and Elia died then he certainly would have blamed Aerys and the Targs. That Robert was "better" has no bearing whatsoever. Those people are still dead. And by doing such a crime to reward Tywin means that the KL massacre is now Robert Baratheons doing, not Tywins. He acknowledged it and rewarded it. The responsibility is therefore in his hands. In our world, if a murderer is not sent to jail because a judge refuses to do so then that judge is responsible for denying that family the murderer murdered justice and has by ignoring justice absolved the blame himself. Tywins action has been officially been OKed by the state. This is huge. They don´t have to pay for it, but they must acknowledge it has existed if they want a working relation. No one say Renly should be blamed as a person for Roberts choices. However, he would be forced to condem Roberts action if this deal takes place. For comparison, there are indeed plenty of people on these forum that think Daenerys should stop calling Ned a usurper´s dog (which he is btw). And in that case you have no reason why she should, because the lack of agreement between her and the Starks. In this Baratheon--Martell case it is a requirment. Do you think Daenerys and the Starks can come to terms if Daenerys still insist on using said term? No they certainly will not. Well, it is a matter of principle. People have those. Doran want justice uncorrupted by Baratheon hands. Or Baratheon hands willing to call what has happen with words Doran can accept. You still havn´t commented on if you think Renly would accept the terms I previously outlined but I think we both know the answer.
  13. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Exactly! And it always happens with characters the audience sympathises for and is made with the purpose to reinterpret the written words in order to sell said persons own fan fiction, later using said fiction as fact and claiming that you are "analysing" (usually with a hint that you, as a creative, sensible, intellectual person have "seen" something few others have understood - an objective truth we mere morals can´t grasp and that we also should listen so that we can see more than the cave-wall that block us, poor readers). I think some people of this forum should consider that not all analysis is good analysis but often biased analysis.
  14. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Then don´t respond to my posts. Simple. No one forces you to it and you need to learn, just as everyone else, that the Internet are full of different opinions. You are not a special little snowflake and, like Jon, shouldn´t get the world adapted to you and be able to influence people without giving others have the same option. There are alot of posters I think are complete idiots too and those persons usually end up on Ignore list. I recommend you learn how to use it. But I don´t think those posters have to adhere to my rules about what the can or can´t post and respond to. Because why should they - we have no working relation that should be preserved. Nor do we. As for the rest of it - if people or going to assess the likelihood that it will turn out Jon is not really a bastard at all, based on zero facts, a biased mindset and ton of unbased speculation that you and others have the guts to claim is "literary analysis" , then I am certainly going to point that out. And again, if you don´t like how I think, then don´t respond. The person unwilling to hear others opinions yet wants to say their piece in a safe-space environment is the person who should stay forever silent.
  15. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I think the sort of only realistic way is something like this: Bran convinces Jon of 1 and 2 with visions. 3. Jon runs into Daenerys somehow, they get along well and 4. Daenerys see the truth about their marriage by more visions. She 5. declare him his heir and claim to the world that he is the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (and let her dragons eat those that have any objection). So, yes - an adoption is going to be necessary in one form or another. In short, for Jon to be seen as a non-bastard by the world, it is going to require magic (with two different people having magical dreams), plot power and a very sympathetic Daenerys who will remove obstacles he can´t remove himself. Normally this would be impossible. In Jons case however, I would just call it unlikely. Nor do I think the story will go this way. I agree that just giving him a kingdom is very clichée fantasy and I have more respect for GRRM than that. But I wouldn´t say it can be completely excluded.