Arya-Jon

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  1. Jon is the center of Grrm's Story. Has connections to both Starks and Targaryens . To ice and fire. That he is well liked by the other main Starks helps his case. For instance it is more likely for an Arya fan or a Bran fan to be pro Jon than anti Jon. Connections to Dany and Tyrion are also there. If the author has set you up as the central character this way and the closest thing to a classic hero, you would certainly have a big fanbase. The main reason for his surge in popularity since book 1,2 is 1) Death of Robb and Ned. - But especially Robb. House Stark is not simply a house. What makes it special are its leaders. They are people who can fight and command men. Ie a leader who is good with the sword. They are honorable. They symbolize House Stark. Ned held the role, then Robb. These two people were considered as undisputed leaders of the house. Hence people focused on them. But with their death, people look at other options. Jon reminds people of Ned and Robb the most, with his sword fighting skills , his honor and because he is a male of similar age to Robb. For those who seek/ want a Stark to lead the Starks in battle and retake Winterfell, Jon is an important candidate. So Stark loyalist fans naturally gravitate towards him. Ned and Robb fans who did not know who to root for after their death gravitate towards Jon due to his similarities with them. Unlike the noblemen of Westeros, fans are not so concerned about the fact that Jon Snow is a supposed bastard hence not really a Stark. Or that he is a son of Lyanna Stark , hence not a Stark. For fans , Jon by default is grouped with the Starks. 2) By the time of ADWD his plot become more exciting. He has by then become a leader of the Night's watch. We get to see how he rules . (I have noticed that seeing people in a position of command is more interesting to people than when they are not. Example :Robb became more interesting to people when he was crowned. Dany when she emerged from the fire and everyone began bowing. People automatically give importance to leaders as the main players in the game of thrones ) He gets to meet some damn interesting characters. Alys, Melisandere His plot becomes a center of activity in terms of not only the white walkers , but also the politics of the wall and the fight for the north, while other plots remained relatively one dimensional.. 3. As people began to realize his Targaryen heritage. They learned that he is a prince in hiding. This made him all the more interesting to them as he has now become a real candidate for things like Azor Ahai, iron throne, prince who was promised etc. Maybe hints of his relationship with Dany is also a factor which makes people like him (if they are Dany fans). This third point (Azor Ahai, Dany, secret prince) may also turn of some people. But I think it attracts more people than it turns off.
  2. Jon does not desire to rule, but he wants glory. He thirsts for glory. Another example Very very few people in Westeros want to rule. Ruling is hard. They either seek the power or the glory. Jon is not power hungry, but he really really wants to prove his worth and wants the glory that comes upon proving himself. He would want to conquer not for the power that comes from conquest, but the glory that comes from winning.
  3. I dont think Arya will be a dragon rider. If she rides anyone it will be Rhaegal (green bronze has some connection to Starks) If there are more than one dragon rider (other than Dany). Tyrion is certainly one of those. Now there is mention of her wanting to fly or getting friendly with dragons. But that can just as well mean liking Dany. Flying could also mean many things So I am sure about who two riders will be-Tyrion and Dany . Between Jon , Arya and Bran, I am not so sure. Though it should be Jon if blood is the criteria. But I dont know whether he is interested in flying (has had no flying dreams which I would expect). He seeks a dragon or 2 at the wall. But even there he does not visualize himself flying it. But as I am not reliant on the belief that there have to be three dragon riders, one dragon could as well die midfight and no one will ride it. I just dont think dragon riding is a convincing explanation for being three heads of the dragon. I also think that there will be some conflict between Dany and Tyrion where they will if I may use the word get estranged before the series ends. (Ie some situation of Tyrion being friend zoned/ignored may create conflict later as the series progresses) So the idea of Tyrion as a head of a dragon is not something I believe. Though I do consider him a dragon rider (Much higher possibility than either Arya or Jon). Maybe taking the dragon would be at the route of the conlict. Quaithe had clearly warned against trusting the lion. Remember prophesy. Soon comes the pale mare..... I know abt the sigil. But what came first , the sigil or the prophesy. Common sense dictates that three heads the dragon has is different from "there are three dragons/dragonriders"
  4. Dany is also taking the marriage approach to three heads of the dragon thing. She could be wrong, but I think it defo makes more sense than dragonriding being a tool to decide who the three heads of a dragon are. As there are not three separate dragons , but a single dragon and marriage can unify symbolically (As mentioned in more detail in my above comment)
  5. I think we need to consider what qualities make someone a head of a dragon. There have been many dragon riders. Clearly not all of them are three heads of the dragon. What unites these three heads? Is it kinship? Basically why is it three heads of a dragon and not three dragons? Would not the being three heads of a dragon imply some kind of unity (as they are not three dragons). So how will that unity be? Some Options 1) By blood? Aegon, Visenya et all were brother sisters 2) By marriage? Aegon, Visenya etc were married to each other. 3) Or is a wild goose chase. As in the three heads mean something like wolf, human, dragon. I think this option is false because Grrm had mentioned that the third head may not be a Targ. Because there is only one dragon, but three heads, I dont think this has to do with dragonriding, but on having at least one dragon(targ) involved, though it can be more. (Not three dragons / hence dragon riders) . Ie the minimum no of Targaryens involved is 1 and the maximum is three. Though I doubt it would be 3 as Grrm said third head may not be a Targ. As three dragon riders is different from a single dragon which has three heads, I dont think dragon riding has much role to play here. So for now I am expecting relatives who intermarry to be three heads of a dragon as marriage is supposed to unify people symbolically (blood also does of course)
  6. Hey, I did not mean that you said it. What I was disagreeing with was your interpretation that snowy crown is negative. For that I needed to emphasize that Starks have always been assosiated as kings of winter. And in Arya's case there are clearly positive connotations with a queen . The oft quoted "You will marry a king and rule his castle and your sons will be..." . (I know you may say that she rejected it . But remember what Jon did when Mormont's raven began cawing king, king. He felt that it referred to Mormont not him . To me it is an example of a misdirection so as to not give it away to the reader). Similarly the example of Willow being compared to a Arya and then to a queen giving orders as if children were no more than servants. I really really doubt he will be the corpse king. That's Euron or one of the Greyjoys. Its pretty clear that Reawakened Jon is not a whitewalker but more like Beric. Beric is not a corpse king and neither will be Jon. Beric remembers his past (though to a lesser degree after so many deaths) unlike whitewalkers and remains heroic. I dont get the desire to associate nights's king or corpse king with those awakened by fire magic . (I am assuming he will be awakened by fire magic in the books). Not about my wanting. What will happen is what the author wants. I am making guesses. We dont know how Jon will be. But my guess is that he will be somewhat like Beric as thats why the author was showing us everything about Beric. Though Jon's warg powers mean there will be some more wolfishness in him too. We will know about his ability to produce children as and when / if he has sex with Dany. If at all there is a child like the OP is speculating, we will know exactly how it goes then. I think your question should be "Do you mind Arya marrying a wolf". As Jon will probably spend a extreme amount of time in the wolf and lose some/most of his human character (Read Varamyr's chapter for more on this) My answer is that she is wolf herself and will understand that wolfishness well. Moreover given Arya's situation ,type of behavior and choice , I dont see much chance of a husband unless it is Jon or Gendry . Because she can detect lies, she will immediately know why the so called husband wants her and will immediately reject him . Moreover the husband being a typical male chauvinist wont help. Jon's love is platonic . So she will like being around him, whether as wife or sister. Considering the foreshadowing to be queen, I think it will be Jon as for me chances of Gendry being king are zero.
  7. So Starks being the kings of winter are not a happy image? So what if it is not. Starks being ice are evil and Targs being fire are good? (have you heard of pact of ice and fire by the way where Starks are considered to be ice and Targs to be fire signed by Cregan Stark). Ie ice can be starks and not necessarily death. Arya being a Stark, it is perfectly natural for her to have a frosty crown and there is no way the author could make iron/copper fall from the sky or make Alys wear a crown so he chose the normal winter symbolism of the Starks. They are the kings of winter. Starks dont have crowns of fire. They are not dragons. In case of Robb there was no mention of a frosty crown. Only snow falling on his head (something jon often notices) which kind of proves my point about snow forming a crown being rarely used and only used when the author wants to foreshadow. Your point about Sam also proves my point that mention of crown when snow falls is rare. Nowhere does he say Sam has a frosty crown. Arya certainly is of the north and would be a queen of winter not summer (where there is only a dream of spring) Kings of winter are stern /hard but not necessarily evil. Ultimately all this is subjective and dependent on interpretation. Indeed if a person is determined, he/she may chose to ignore the Willow/Arya queen comparison too the same way you are associating Frosty crown negatively (not that you are wrong or right but that it is very subjective ). So I dont think our argument will lead anywhere as we will only give subjective interpretations and never come to a common ground on our subjective interpretations. But I am glad you agree that both of us have rational reasons for our points of view (and not because we ship someone)
  8. I for one , never link them due to romance. I link them because of the hints of Arya being a queen and the hints for Jon becoming a king. Yes it is possible, that Jon would become king at some other time/place than Arya and vice versa. But especially for Arya, i dont see many people who would fit with her, who will accept her as she is. Who understands her and does not want to change her. Think of what a king will do when he has a wife who can kill. Who changes faces. Can any king truly love her for what she is? Who is wilfull and does her own thing. Edric Dayne cannot handle that. Gendry can handle better than Dayne, but there is no way he will be king which is the reason I am ruling him out (There are people like Edric Storm around). So if Arya has to marry and has to have a king, I think it will go the same way as the outline. There are things to dislike about the Jon-Arya match. But there are things to like too. They are both equals. Ie they are capable in their own different ways. Its not as if one is useless and the other is intelligent. He is her level and she is his. They will care for each other, but not because of inheritance. Very few husband and wife pairs love each other unconditionally. They most probably will. I think they will marry, simply because they want to stay together and never be separated again and also because them being cousins allows them to. But I just dont see romance as a motivation the way it was in the outline. Like Jon seeing Arya and going all wobbly. Or vice versa. I dont think that is possible. I think they will marry simply looking at the happiness they have together. Arya like Lyanna would know that most men are only interested in her for her claim or cunt. I dont think Arya is the kind of person who seeks queenhood. It will just happen despite her not seeking it. The only way I can see that happen is if she fights a war for Jon, wins and some situations arise which compel her to become queen. (As for the queenhood thing I have elaborated in my previous replies to talvikorrpi. For the Jon king evidence here you go http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/132985969484/my-predicted-asoiaf-endgame-based-on-grrms-hints)
  9. You are welcome. I really appreciate your willingness to consider another view. Yeah. The way I see it , he mentions He is randomly talking about being Kings hand( which Brandon has no real link too). Brandon was never considered for being king's hand. He is talking about that because he himself is king's hand. So he is basically saying that what he is, should have been Brandon's . He was talking about this in the context of Sansa's marriage to Joffrey. So he is going to become a father to a queen. (Though the author added queens for some reason which is what caused me to be suspicious). The author is not talking about Brandon here as brandon never had two daughters, was never close to becoming king's hand. Ned is saying that what he is currently should be Brandon's. He does not want what he has got. He does not seek to be a father to queens. Now keep in mind that this was written probably before the outline was made (the version in which Sansa was queen and gave birth to Joffrey's son). As he seems to have changed it for Sansa (though Littlefinger still may have a few tricks and there is Fake Aegon wanting to marry someone), he can ultimately change it for Arya. So there is a high possibility that the author has changed it for Arya. But there is a hint in ADWD that he may not have totally abandoned it So Alys Karstark is being compared to Arya and suddenly out of know where a crown is suddenly put on her. Now it could be coincidence of course. But on a rough search I did not find any such comparison for someone else. Not many people other than Lyanna have been linked with a frosty crown. One possibility is that the author is trying to compare Arya to Lyanna who also had a frosty crown But then I see this in A feast for Crows. This is a repeat of the same pattern we saw with Alys. Arya being compared to someone and then Grrm giving some sign of queenship. This has no connection to Lyanna. There is a chance that Grrm was just randomly putting around those lines. Like just for fun he was comparing Willow to a queen. But I am thinking why? Why does he need to compare Willow to a queen? She is just a commoner for gods sake. There are so many common girls who have not been compared to queen. Why Willow? Alys I can still understand. Why does he show a tendency to connect the few Arya type people to queens soon after the POV character compares them to Arya (Jon and Brienne)? Now, I dont rule out the chance of all this being random (though to me the chance is less) or that Grrm has recently (after ADWD) changed his mind.
  10. Firstly, I was never a hardcore fan (Arya or Jon) . Initially I had only seen the show. Actors had given interviews about Jon liking redheads. Then there was an interesting asoiaf post pointing in this direction (Yes, I mean Sansa -Jon). So I set out to prove to myself that Sansa and Jon could happen.I began to read the books which (I had not read before) and frequent the forums a lot! But instead of the ending I wanted and expected, I reached a different version. In that ending it was not Sansa , but Dany and Arya who would marry Jon. I published a endgame write up somewhere in November 2015 in my tumblr blog . http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/ But when I tried to convince people about this endgame (especially about Jon and Arya happening), I found a lot of skepticism from what you like to call reasonable people. And this is the story behind my username. As there was so much unwillingness to consider the possibility that Arya-Jon could happen, thats the username I would use. Now I am not denying that I began to like Jon and Arya bond as I delved deeper into Asoiaf universe. Of course I did. I find their platonic love among the most beautiful there can be. But the consideration of marriage only came because of the hints about Arya being a queen. This post I had made 5 months ago approx. The OP has included a lot of ideas from it. http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/153082444899/the-case-for-arya-becoming-a-queen-in-her-endgame I just saw the hints, from text as recently as in ADWD and AFFC (which is imp to me as it proves that Grrm wanted to make Arya queen at least till that point). You can see that if you go to the link (though OP has mentioned most of them) But my favourite one is from AGOT This father to queens line was what made me start my search. I had just started reading game of thrones. I was hoping to prove and find hints for Sansa-Jon marriage. When I saw the father to queens line, I only initially looked at it from the perspective of Sansa. Its only a day later, I thought , hey this line could mean Arya. So I searched for such theories on Asoiaf. There I heard about the outline that had leaked. It was then for the first time I considered possibility of Arya and Jon being a pair and it was only then that I got the courage to consider something which seemed so inprobable to me. But it did make sense once I considered it. Arya is certainly not the type for Aegon (fake) and there were very few male heirs to consider who could be the king. Grrm has mentioned that his ending from 1991 would mostly remain same. Plus Arya being queen is the most unpredictable crazy thing I could imagine. So it made sense as game of thrones is itself unpredictable and crazy like hell. Then I found some other concepts / hints which added support to the theory of Arya-Jon marriage. Coming back to your post. You are generalizing people and dismissing their reasoning capablities because hey they are Arya / Jon shippers/fans? Maybe , just maybe that's not the case? People may have arrived at this conclusion based on their own reasoning ability? Its disappointing how people tend to generalize other people and judge them. I have from my experience in the forum realized that trying to change other people's opinion (when subjective) is a waste of time . But still I am making a try, in case it works. (mostly wont be there to reply in case you are expecting one )
  11. Yeah, you are right that I am not being convincing with respect to the inheritance thing. So I will try again. If Sansa is dead (a big if). If Bran has reproduction issues( a big if) and if Arya and Jon are the only possible people who can continue the line of Winterfell, ie have some claim (with Arya having a bigger claim of course). So if Arya is unwilling to move away from Jon and does not want to marry any random lord who only wants her for her claim, than marrying her cousin Jon and continuing the line of Winterfell is an option. Unlike other suitors Jon does not care about her inheritance, but only about her (at least in Arya's eyes).Marriage is just an excuse. The main aim for Arya is to stay away from the throng of unworthy suitors. Of course it is also possible in that case that Jon will allow Arya to stay unmarried and not care about providing a heir for Bran (who is the lord of winterfell but with the inability to produce a heir). But I feel it is unlikely. Eddard Stark's line would then die out and I dont think that will happen. So rather than inheritance conflict the correct word is inheritance issue. I will be off forum so dont think I will reply soon.
  12. Anyways will be off the forum for quite some time now. Back to work. Had fun with you all
  13. If Grrm wants Arya to be queen of westeros, there are multiple ways he can do it. I think Arya deserves to be queen simply because I think it will be she who will save the Starks/Jon and ensure the conquest of Westeros through tunnels and what not. As she has the major role in the conquest , she does have a right to be ruler, the same way Eddard Stark had a right (as much as Robert Baratheon . He used being a cousin of Targaryen as a means. But honestly he is king through conquest, not because of being a Targaryen descendant. There are multiple other Targaryen descendants like Viserys, Dany so claim does not flow from Targs) Getting her to marry Jon is one option. Possible because of their direwolf connection. Jon wanting to put conflict on inheritance to rest. Samwell intervention. So many ways. If you think inheritance is not a valid reason, that is fine. There are other ways it can be done. Wrt inheritance it depends on how the author makes Jon think , which you or I have no control over. Going from king in the north to king of westeros is a unique situation that has never happened before. Having a sister/cousin who is so wild (in a good way) is unique. Her wild ways will certainly scare of Edric Dayne. She is certainly not for the faint hearted. Having a brother whose reproductive status is unknown is also a unique situation. (Jon 's is also unkown to be fair, but if he has had sex with dany and made her pregnant then not really. ) So unique arrangements can happen to solve it. Also Arya(or any other Stark) , Jon and Dany are a perfect balance of ice and fire.A song of ice and fire balance. Arya (pure ice), Dany (fire), Jon(ice and fire). So fits with the title. Yeah after the war, I think he will be king of westeros. Hence he would be king of Andals,north etc etc . Bran as lord of winterfell.
  14. In the books he has not reached the stage of being king in the north. I think the will will play an important role in the books. Otherwise whats the point of mentioning it? It will surely lead to something. If he is seeing/ hearing that Robb wants him to lead and has legitimized him, he will take it very seriously. I dont think the thought of being a usurper will bother him initially. When/if he realizes he is not really Ned's son it is a different story. We dont know how the system of legitimization works. Is a legitimized bastard ahead of a true born son if he is elder or not? Fans have disagreement here. But ultimately if the lords have chosen him to be king, there is no question of being a usurper. Its like calling Aegon the Unlikely a usurper because the kings council chose him ahead of people ahead of him in the succession. Ultimately who is usurper comes from a frame of reference. For a targaryen loyalist Baratheon is a usurper. For someone on the Baratheon side, he is a conqueror not a usurper. So the question is whether the lords in the north would see Jon as a usurper. I dont think most of them would. While they do care about sucession a lot , they would feel they have completed their revenge by putting a legitimized Stark on the throne. For them they need to have a leader who they can rally behind. With Jon being a famous swordsman and a seemingly perfect northener/man of honor(Hi littlefinger!), they would feel more comfortable rallying behind him, then a young child or a girl.
  15. My personal view is he would be lord of winterfell when Jon would be king of Westeros. I want him to end up with Meera Reed and it is possible that he may have kids despite his disability. We cannot rule that out. But- there is a chance he may not have kids. Ned had thought that he may never hold a son. Maybe Ned's thought is true (though it can be false). Also Ned told Arya that your children will be lords and princes and yes maybe a high septon. So it is possible that Arya and Jon's child may inherit Winterfell. But that kid of Jon and Arya would not stay with Jon and Arya but with Bran and Meera Reed. They would raise him just like Ned raised Jon. Or Jon Arryn raised Ned Maybe with even more love. Unlike Catelyn , Meera Reed may actually love that kid. It would not necessarily be equal to a son of their own, but for all practical purposes it is. I dont think Jon would give give up kingship of the north to Bran as for plot purpose it is essential he(Jon) is king in the north when he meets Dany.