Aegon VII

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  1. Just how important is Mance?

    Yeah, that was a complete slip on my part. I meant wights, referring to the statement that goes something like, Aye.. you've killed a dead man.. Mance has killed a hundred. Really? I always though it was pretty much 50/50 and it's up to us to figure it out based on GRRM's clues, same with Bran. I think BR has done a lot to show that he's a good guy and is trying to do what's best for the realm, and I have little reason to believe that changed after deserting the NW. That's not an even comparison at all. I am not saying Mance is important because he's mentioned in the first book, ton's of character's are in the first book. He is mentioned in the Second Paragraph of the first chapter. He is the first character given a title in the entire series. He is the first character introduced to the reader. To say that's not important and to compare it with someone merely being mentioned in the first book fails to recognize its significance. Mistake on my part, definitely meant wights. Still, he's killed more of the dead than anyone else and has stopped them from killing all those wilidings that would have greatly bolstered their numbers. That's extremely helpful in our fight against them. If you were arguing that the point of the PL was to get jon stabbed and then jon got stabbed, so the job is done, I would agree. But I, like you, believe the PL's intention was to bring Jon south, not to get him stabbed. So I do not believe the job is done when jon is stabbed, i believe it is done when jon goes south. I think Jon will be back and will be going south. So what, is that you basically just writing it off? God forbid a theory has multiple aspects that are still unproven. Rowan being an umber makes more sense than her not. Everything points to Rowan being an Umber. If you disagree, I urge you to dig deeper or provide an alternative theory that better explains why she addresses stannis as king, is angry at theon using the stark words, is described as having the same skin as other umbers (leathery) and calls theon a kinslayer when half the other people to do so are also umbers. This isn't even mentioning how GRRM purposely writes Mance into two scenes that give him all the knowledge he needs about the umbers and the daughter that was stolen. The text supports Stannis writing the PL because GRRM has made it a mystery for the reader to solve and Stannis, Ramsay, and Mance are all possible answers to the mystery. GRRM made the text support all of them, but not equally. Mance is the correct answer, and he is whom the text ultimately supports. I've laid out the reasons I believe mance wrote the pl in my thread, "An argument supporting Mance wrote the Pink Letter", so I'd be happy to defend my views there if we wish to talk more about the PL specifically. He was a man who deserted the only life he knew at the wall to venture into the inhospitable north with people who would immediately hate him for being a NW brother. You can say they would welcome him as a wilding but Osha's comments show us that the average wilding still views him as a black crow flew down from the shadow tower, and not one of them. He went out from the wall on his own with nothing and managed to become king. He united warring tribes through both politics and single combat. We have a few characters who are political like that e.g tyrion, varys, and a few that are badass fighters like that e.g. red viper, Jaime, but can you think of anyone who is both. Who could become the "elected" leader of a realm of unorganized warring tribes. How many kings are willing to go single combat these days. Yet Mance really doesn't even show an affinity towards violence. Mance is a boss. His rise from nothing to king should be evidence enough. And I disagree that he is probably captured nude in WF. I would say he's probably about to be in a position of power in WF, but that's just more "unproven theories". Then again, so is assuming the PL is true. Just a scenario I like. Seems an appropriately tragic end. I could see it unfolding similar to Bael when his son kills him.
  2. What did Melisandre and the Mance have in mind?

    I think you hit the nail on the head with that quote. She sees things in her fires. Based on Mance's self proclaimed skills at climbing walls and through windows I believe we have to assume Val could know everything Mance knows, and Mance could know everything. Between hearing the letter after sparring with Jon and being in the war council room with stannis Mance has heard a ton, and that's not even including what he could have overheard while sneaking that we don't know about. Mance and Val both most likely know there was a baby swap. I have also come to believe Stannis fully knows Mance is alive. Some would say he's too honorable but that's not true. He justifies the means to his ends through any excuse necessary. Blood magic, burning people alive, wanting to sacrifice his nephew, killing his brother. He has excuses for all of them sure, but he's still shitty. And we haven't even seen if Shireen goes up in flames yet. The quote about Mance's beard is evidence that he has lost the glamour in WF. Mel was under the impression she could control him when he had the ruby on but I think she was wrong. He was still climbing through windows, still hatching certain ploys, and was able to take the cuffs off after leaving the wall. There's little to suggest Mel has or had any control over Mance. Mance overheard a ton of info specific to the umbers. I think going to the last hearth was one of the first things he did after leaving CB and there he found out about the wedding. The Umbers were promised Mance's skull, so him showing up would show how Stannis was screwing them. Him having Rowan to vouch for his character would go a far way as well. Then we have the horn blowing outside of the wall coordinating with the escape attempt. Mance is quick to tell Theon the horns are Stannis's. We all know that Mance knows that Stannis uses Trumpets, not horns. The trumpets were a noticeable part of him getting massacred north of the wall. Him quickly having an excuse for the horns and saying it's Stannis suggests he know's the horns aren't Stannis's but is trying to cover it up. WF is a hornet's nest ready to explode. Most of the people there don't like each other or the Boltons. The cause that has the biggest support would be the north's sense of loyalty to the Starks, even though it's only a fake arya stark that's there. The northern houses who still have some loyalty to the starks (Manderly's and Umbers) can't do anything as they are having to pretend to be loyal to the Boltons out of self preservation. Uniting the northern houses would really not be that difficult for Mance. Especially if he were going around promising that he could get Jon back to WF to be King. Some other hints of Rowan being an Umber that I haven't seen mentioned on this thread yet are that she has leathery skin which is how other umbers are described and that she calls theon "kinslayer", An Umber and the hooded man are the only other people to do so. So between Rowan lining up so well as an umber and Mance already declaring he has a ploy in mind I am confident that Mance's ploy does involve Rowan and that he's working with the Umbers now. If the PL is true and Mance is captured, that whole ploy never came to fruition at all. Good news though, we have little reason to think the PL is true. Most of it is just a parallel of the "Mance" execution at the wall. Pretty damn poetic. Further supporting Mance being okay is the one washerwoman who says, "Abel can fend for himself". This would be an irrational statement unless she knows something we don't, like what Mance's plan is. Then we have Abel responding to Roose with, "If it please your lordship" and taking a seat at the high table. Earlier Reek tells us about how he muddles up the words to please lord Bolton. Then we have Abel speaking proper as shit and placing himself in a very symbolic seat. On top of the high table being symbolic of power and ruling, we also know that it serves a functional reason for mance to be there, with the lords exit so close. Sounds like an awesome plan to me. So Mance is still a cool customer as the final stages of his plan are unfolding, suggesting that everything is still going as planned. We have a lot of evidence that he is coordinating with the Umbers and we know that the Manderly's would more than likely be willing to cooperate with a Bolton/Frey overthrow. The Umbers and Manderlys would not want to follow the Boltons or Stannis, but they could be united under a Stark king. North of the wall would be one of the hardest places to unite through politics, yet Mance does it. So we know he has the skills to treat with the umbers and manderly's and form alliances. The more power Jon has, the more Mance and the wildlings benefit, so he does have a good reason to unite the north behind Jon. Some have discussed if Mance knew Arya was fake and if so why did he do it. I agree with those who say that yes he knew it wasn't Arya, but he still chose to do it. Partly because he's a good guy and that was a girl being tortured, and partly because the Bolton's losing Theon and Arya is devestating to them. Ramsay is gonna freak out and act irrational, the other northern houses are going to judge them as weak for losing them both and a lot of the reason the northern houses were playing nice in the first place was to look after Arya. If she's gone they can follow through with taking over WF without worrying about a Stark hostage. One final note, GRRM says Theon's TWOW chapter takes place before SOME of the chapters at the end of aDwD. Though Jon gets the PL at the end of aDwD, that does not mean it is one of the chapters that happened after Theon I. I think we have to be open to it happening before or after. Please let me know what you think, this is one of my favorite topics in asoiaf.
  3. "Moral ambiguity" is overrated and overestimated

    I think we will most likely come around to seeing the others as not purely evil. I also think we are presented the dragons as though they are the opposite of the others, the embodiment of fire rather than ice. Though Dany and her dragons seem like the the hero of the series at first blush, I think as we look closer we also see they are not purely good, just like the others aren't purely bad. We have seen more evidence of the dragons not being good, that's why I make the connection. I think your statement in red is the exact opposite of the truth. Killing a dog because it's in uncurable pain and you want to put it out of it's misery is less evil than killing a dog for fun. This is not the same as self-justification or utilitarianism. If anything I think GRRM has so far not presented the others as evil. We know they mean to kill humans but that's not evil in and of itself. Consider if you will, a deadly virus. Let's say the black plague. Can a virus be evil? Viruses just like bacteria, humans, parasites, bugs and trees are forms of life trying to pass on their genetic material. Is a lion evil for eating a deer? How is it any different? If two species are incompatible and fight until one of the species is dead is that species evil? It's an interesting question, because the species that has done that to an exponentially further extent than any other species is humans. We killed every species remotely close to us. Does that make us evil? All the others have really done so far is fight a people who have historically fought them, men. Who's to say which one is right and wrong when we know virtually nothing about the nature of the conflict.
  4. Just how important is Mance?

    I completely disagree. He is mentioned in the second paragraph of the first chapter of the first book. He is the first character in the series introduced with a title. GRRM is very intentional with his wording, there's a reason were introduced to him first. So far he and Bloodraven have done the absolute most in the fight against the others, which are presented to us at the ultimate threat. He took the most central character in and broadened his horizons, in many ways acting as a father figure to Jon, similar to how Jon is now acting as a father figure to his son Aemon Steelsong. He has united warring nations through politics and force, supposedly killed hundreds of white walkers, and just pulled off a pretty epic Theon and fArya escape. Plus, I believe the text strongly supports Mance writing the Pink Letter, and that he is most likely fine and dandy. When you consider that Rowan is almost surely an Umber it means that Mance does in fact have a certain ploy in mind that we have not yet been made aware of. The black crow is a tricksy bird. Abel can fend for himself. Overall, Mance is one of the best men/characters/leaders in the series. There's a good chance he'll be dying soon in TWOW (possibly at Jon's hand), but that doesn't make him any less important to the story.
  5. Remark by Jaime's aunt Genna about Tyrion

    Perhaps it's been mentioned, but I always view this scene as evidence towards Tyrion actually being Tywin's when evaluating if A+J=T.
  6. Small Questions v. 10105

    Is there a scene in the books where Cersei says that singers will make a song about Joffrey killing Nymeria? or anyone referencing that that's how the day's events would be remembered, as Joff killing the wolf?
  7. Ah good call! Completely slipped my mind when I was trying to think of examples. Makes sense with it occurring in ironborn society similar to how I assumed it would be more prevalent north of the wall. The more a society is ruled by might rather than right the more common rape will be.
  8. Like most other things I think it comes largely from GRRM painting a very realistic world and that includes people at different points along the sexual spectrum. Being intelligent, he's going to be open minded about homosexuality so why not have good and bad characters alike identify as it. When it comes to someone like Oberyn it does serve to make them even more badass. It reminds me of "the wire", arguably the greatest show in history, and the character Omar. Best character in the whole series, if not all series. Obama once named Omar as his favorite fictional character of all time. He robs drug dealers, has a code of ethics, and is gay as can be. And this is in a culture that's shows more animosity to gays than pretty much any other ever. Yet he's still the best and most badass character on the show. His character wouldn't have been nearly as interesting if he were not gay. Homosexuality is just one more component that makes up a persons identity. It's the sum of these components that matter. As far as throwing out possible gays/bisexuals in the series, a washerwoman offers to have Mance sleep with Theon. Probably an empty offer, but Mance is pretty open minded so you never know! One thing that always struck me as odd is the lack of male on male rape in the series. I know it's not a fun topic but I think if GRRM really was being realistic we would have seen more of it by now. Perhaps having brothels with young boys in Westeros curbs this but at the very least I would think We should have heard reference of it occurring north of the wall. p.s. I think you bring up a fair question and am sorry some people take issue with it.
  9. Northern lord taking a Wildling wife

    If they were a good lord the people may whisper about it behind closed doors but no one would bring it up as a negative in public. If they were a shitty lord the people would talk incessantly about it and eventually a lesser lord would overthrow them because of it.
  10. Skin changing and dragon riding seem like parallels in the ice vs fire dichotomy. It is noteworthy that dragon riders didn't conquer Westeros sooner. There's the theory they were waiting until all the skin changers were gone.
  11. Rhaegar sacrificed himself to Robert

    Excellent theory! Really great connection with the leeches. Some things I think support it, 1) rhaegar waould have been melancholy because he knew he would have to sacrifice himself and/or Lyanna, as someone else pointed out upthread. 2) I don't have a quote atm but isn't there a line about how the crown prince sought out the usurper at the trident? Suggesting rhaegar intended to fight Robert 1 on 1, even though rhaegar had the numbers and Robert was thought of as the better warrior. Rhaegar doing this is largely irrational unless your theory is true. ( the only other reason I can think would be if it was to stop unnecessary deaths on both sides). Besides rhaegar had a few of the kingsguard only way he's fighting Robert instead of them is if he chooses to. 3)a lot of the text suggests rhaegar was doing things purposely to create the next tptwp, we know part of this is the mother dying in childbirth. Would rhaegar be willing to risk Lyanna surviving and their child not getting enough magic because of it? It's incredibly dark, but who knows what GRRM is capable of. 4) goes well with the always despised, Mance =Rhaegar theory. He could have been resurrected at the quiet isle, trade his harp for a lute, and go north to assume a knew identity, continuing his goal of trying to save the realm. 5) his comments to Jaime would support your theory being false. Perhaps he was intentionally lying to try to make sure Jaime wouldn't pull a wildcard while he was gone. Considering Jaime pulls the biggest wild card of all and murders the king I'd say rhaegar would have been right to be concerned and try to calm him. That's all for now, thank you for the theory. great food for thought!
  12. The Most Intelligent Pre-Teen?

    Concerning intelligence: Missandei, big walder, Arya and bran
  13. Shireen leading an army of stone men. Or the ironborn
  14. Is it confirmed Brandon never had sons

    I really see zero chance of stark incest becoming part of the story. I put a lot of stock in the dichotomy between ice and fire and how well GRRM parallels them, but this is not one of their commonalities. For me this kind of touches on the idea of targs thinking of themselves as more than other men. dragons are categorically different from other animals. I think through targs GRRM explores the idea of Nietzsche's ubermenchs and the dangers that lie therein. The targ incest is 1: a way to show they're above the laws of men, same with polygamy and 2: reinforcing that their blood is different than everyone else's and needs to be mated with other dragons to stay pure. the Starks seem to take an opposite mindset to this first point. Ned instills in his children good morals that all men should follow. Starks have honor, and a big part of honor is that they hold themselves to the same standards as others. Starks also swing the sword when executing rather than distancing himself from it. So while I still think there is a connection here between ice and fire, I think the connection illustrates how the two families differ in their approach to ruling, rather than the connection being that their both incestual. Starks follow the laws they expect others to follow. Targs view themselves above these laws and do not.
  15. A possible new take on the Rhaegar = Mance crackpot

    I'm glad you brought this up as that's one I really don't get. I feel there's so much evidence pointing to MR=RT but so little for Arthur dayne. Whereas dayne being qhorin is actually supported with his ruby necklace and jaimes comment about him defeating people with his left hand. I'd be interested to hear any evidence of arthur being mance. exactly. Whereas for MR=RT there are clues galore. Even just rereading dany's hotu visions compared to Jaime's weirwood dream of rhaegar, there's so much that fits beautifully if mance is rhaegar. Aemon steelsong, the bael parallels, alfie allen's star wars comment, jon dueling with rattleshirt, jons comment about his blood being no more royal, GRRM playing with high birth and how it relates to the right to rule, The reader being misled about the king beyond the walls identity when Jon first enters the tent filled with red light and smoke, Mance's story about his red and black cloak, the conflicting back stories on Mance.... The list goes on Oh and I just saw your reply to viking. I'm interested in your theory! I think it's plain that Mance is more than what he appears, if you have an alternative that works better than him being rhaegar I'm all ears! the only ones i've really seen tossed around are that he's a descendent of ether bloodraven or qorgyle, and I think both are just way too insignifcant and not supported enough in the text. Haha, I agree with a lot of what you've said here. I kind of think that when GRRM talked about having an idea for one character that they couldn't do on the show because he was dead, he was talking about MR=RT. I find it interesting because if true, it sounds like he still hadn't decided whether he would make MR=RT or not, though I have trouble believing that's true.