Aegon VII

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  1. Has anyone mentioned that you taste through smell too so she could have literally tasted molten gold when it was poured on her brother. Don't think grrm was referencing this in any way, but thought I'd mention it still. Also smell is the sense most strongly associated with memories
  2. And I thank you for that. I hate how it seems discussions of theories are always discussed in terms of two people taking opposite sides on an argument. Instead a discussion of pros, cons, and alternate observations is far more constructive. I hate how every time I dive into a more crackpot theory it seems I must defend a theory that I know most likely isn't right. We should be examining all theory's that have evidence supporting them objectively, no need to take sides as it seems many do here. I'm saying that those few hurdles are not insurmountable when we consider how easily identity and appearance are changed and confused in asoiaf. We've already seen Mance as three people, people change faces, these hurdles that would be huge in real life are not so much in a fantasy series. If an author is hiding the core mystery of the series it makes sense that he would walk that line of barely possible while still being genuine. I think one of the big issues in our discussion is that most people don't believe there's a way grrm could make mr=rt that would be genuine and not just stupid. I disagree. As I mentioned in the OP, this theory is based on many other smaller ones that I would be happy to explain if asked about. So, evidence supporting Rhaegar learning glamours. First we already know BR learned how to use glamours as maynard plumm while wearing a gem (moonstone). I believe Rhaegar was getting information in his youth from either BR, GoHH, or both. Yes, he could have found something in a book that told him he needed to be a warrior, but I find it more likely it was a BR dream or he heard it from gohh. For BR, I believe there's evidence that he's reached out in dreams to others. Bran, euron, sweetrobin in that order of likeliness. This supports him also doing it to Rhaegar, and explains rhaegar's obsession with prophecy. As for gohh, it comes down to jennys song. she trades prophetic dreams in exchange for hearing the song with the brotherhood. She even says what other song is there. I think this is the a clue from grrm that jennys song is the sweet sad song, (sometimes sad soft) that Rhaegar is talked about playing multiple times and that mance plays in wf to signal to begin the escape (which is again, fits with mr=rt). When rhaegar is described singing it, it floors people. Here's a quote by selmy, When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved. So, between br dreams and exchanging songs for gohh prophecies I think grrm has shown he had the means to learn. Then we have the ToHH and this quote The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. So, while wearing rubies it seemed no lance could touch him. Maybe its just an expression, or maybe it seemed that way because of glamour type magic. I also highlighted scarlet silk because of it's relation to mance. The next piece of evidence is Loras cheating at the Kings tourney. grrm made intentional parallels between both tourneys. In simplest terms, Loras and Rhaegar both give a stark girl roses, with the color being switched. These parallels may very well extend to them both cheating. So, you may say it's not much evidence, but how much can we really be given about a guy who died years and years before the story begins whom we only see in dreams and visions? Lastly we have already seen the parallel between gems and glamours. BR and his moonstone and Mel with Mance's Ruby. We also have Mel's ruby which there is a lot of evidence glamors her to look young. Funny then how when Rhaegars death is talked about the rubies are constantly brought up. We only hear of rhaegar wearing the armor with rubies twice, at the tohh and at the trident. this theory proposes he was using glamour-esque magic in both situations. As a linguist I hope you can appreciate that when evaluating a statement it is 99% of the time not a black and white truth or lie. You may feel that an author is obliged to speak in a certain tense about his own work but that doesn't mean grrm does, and I don't. If I want to mislead someone about something I'm going to use misleading language. If there's a valid interpretation that's not a lie that it's not a lie. People view these things differently. Other valid interpreations in my mind would be if he were talking about Rhaegar Frey. The question doesn't talk about targaryan at all, only grrm in his answer. Other answer would be that RT=MR=RS and RS was cremated therefore RT was cremated. And again, ultimately, he could just be lying. All the other reasons don't have to be there at all, he could just be lying. Maybe he treats this central mystery differently. Also, I highlighted that line of yours because it's exactly what grrm does after saying rhaegar was cremated.. so he does do what you said he would have done, only he gave a short answer in addition to it that can be intrepretted in multiple ways. Grrm has gone to great extents to show that people see what they expect to see. If that's unbelievable though there's always him just being glamoured the whole time.. Perhaps in discussing heights I failed to point out a major part of my thinking. In a population of people, height=athletic ability. I have great confidence that the majority of both wildling leaders north of the wall, and highborn south of the wall, are tall. Good genes prevail. So when evaluating the poeple in the tent, he notes tormund as short, even though tormund would probably be a pretty average height. Maybe an inch or so shorter than highborn average still taller than the average man. Styr is tall, as you said, his son is shorter than styr but average height. So in a room of leaders, Mance is middling height also keeping in mind he's spent what, like a decade north of the wall in hard conditions with terrible nutrition. That will take it's toll. We don't only have his word for it. As I said if his word's not good enough we can dig deeper. I went ahead and posted on the small questions and lo and behold, we have the link to the original questions! I wish you would have waited for us to get the actual text, for as you will see, grrm does in fact ignore the first part of the question, and then immediately after answering, decides it's time to wrap things up. [Jon Nieve:] Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)? [George R. R. Martin:] Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens. Here's my original statement again to reference, "George only gave the vaguest possible answer to the second part, and completely ignored the first. Then, he made a deliberate effort to change the subject even though he had time to answer more questions! It cannot be denied that George R. R. Martin intentionally refused to discuss who recovered Rhaegar's corpse. Any reasonable person would admit that this revelation actually supports the belief that Rhaegar may not be dead." 1) It was a two part question who recovered the corpse and WHERE was he buried. GRRM chose to say the method in which he left this earth, rather than commenting on either who found the corpse or where the cremation took place. I guess our disagreement comes down to whether grrm knew that he was not truly answering either part of the two part question or not. I think GRRM is a pretty damn careful with his language, so I have to believe he knew exactly what he was doing. 2) I disagree. The fact that he was telling the truth changes nothing, of course he would stay true to his word. By wrapping up the chat at that time it does change the subject from the previous question to the fact that only three more can be asked. This discourages follow up questions about rhaegar in addition to literally changing what people are thinking about. Or you could accept that we have come to differing conclusions. You can also accept that mr=rt is a theory that been around forever and will continue to be viewed my many as a possibility. Instead of just thinking that we're all not capable of understanding what you understand, please accept the possibility that nobody knows anything for sure and we all may be wrong about any and everything. No need to try to shut down theories because you view what's possible in a fantasy theory differently than others. Here's the link to the original question in all it's glory. He doesn't answer who found the corpse, doesn't answer where the cremation took place, and then discourages follow up questions by stating that the chat will be over in three questions. If this link doesn't work check out the small questions thread
  3. For sure. It is just so many people use that ssm as hard proof that rhaegar is dead. In another thread I pointed out that it was a two part question and it was questioned so I was looking for proof It is interesting for sure. My man! Thank you so much! So there it is, it was a two part question and it has been shortened in the ssm.
  4. Can anyone find the line of questioning in which grrm is asked what happened to rhaegar after the battle of the trident?. Not the ssm. I ask because I'm hoping to determine if it was actually a two part question. Did they also ask who found Rhaegar's body? I am aware the ssm doesn't include it, that's why I'm looking for the original line of questions and answers. Thank you!
  5. Alright. let's get started. This thread was not to defend MR=RT. It instead to provide a theory that would help support it. Some on this forum felt that MR=RT is impossible and therefore we should not have theories like this that are related to it. I admit that MR=RT is crackpot but I view it as a valid theory and enjoy discussing it and theories related to it such as this. Since a thread will go where it goes I will give in and now full on defend MR=RT. For those people who've mocked this theory, please remember that my goal is not to convert you into thinking MR=RT is true. Instead it is to convince you that it is POSSIBLE. That it is a valid theory. Let's begin. You've mentioned the same 5-10 objections that get brought up every MR=RT thread. This contributes nothing new, but I'll provide an answer for you all one more time. I'm sure you will read these and say, this is mental gymnastics, he is deluding himself and looking for any possible excuse to explain this theory. Well sure, that's a natural conclusion. Of course I disagree, but I can see how if you haven't done the hours of research and seen the hint after hint that supports MR=RT, you would view these as wild excuses, rather than small hurdles that once overcome lead to huge narrative implications and a pretty cohesive theory( albeit not nearly fleshed out). Again remember, we are talking about if MR=RT is possible. You may conclude that this is too farfetched and contrived and grrm is a better writer than to do this, but guess what, that's just like, your opinion man. Who are you to say that your interpretation of the evidence is better than those of us whom view MR=RT as valid, if all of us have the same facts. Who are you to say we have no right to discuss it as a theory, simply because you have evaluated it as impossible. Perhaps you just hold theories to a higher standard. Some people would say, if there's a 1% chance of something being true, it warrants investigation. Others would say, if the evidence is more against it than for it we shouldn't even bother exploring it. I am more in the first camp. We have nothing but time, I like to explore all theories that there is evidence supporting (Yup, that means mr=rt). Rhaegar is quite the character and many of us feel his story is left uncompleted. He started the war that started this whole situation, he is painted consistently as the perfect hero, he was obsessed with prophecy, he was going to summerhall where there was a CoTF who is known to give prophecies in exchange for harps and he is brought up a ton. Plus there's all them damn rubies flying off his chest. A ton of mystery surrounding his death and RR in general. Then we have mance, who along with BR is doing the absolute most in the war against the others. He's saving wildings and getting them south of the wall, searching graves for mystical artifacts, and possibly searching the crypts of wf for the same. Mance has picked up the battle against the others that presumably Rhaegar and BR before him had started. Mance's backstory is given by three characters, all somewhat contradictory. We's told he's a wildling bastard in one story, told he's the bastard of a nw brother in another, and then osha notes how she is different than mance, he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her. Well hold on, wasn't mance born up there? wasn't his mother and her bother before her born up there as well? hasn't he tasted winter? You can say these three descriptions don't outright contradict each other but they certainly don't support each other. When we are first introduced to the king beyond the wall, Jon confuses the identity and thinks Styr is Mance. We also have Jon noting The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. So in our first introduction we are presented with Mance not being who we (Jon and the reader) think he is, and we have Jon noting that he doesn't look like a wildling. We also have a lowborn bastard wildling somehow being capable enough to unite the wildlings through both words and sword. This is super fucking impressive. Probably the most impressive thing anyone in asoiaf has done. For real, in a society built on violence and one on one fighting, Mance is taking down tribe leaders in single combat, while also being an orator and a singer. Mance is the man, and there's a lot suggesting he's more than meets the eye. So we have one character who's story seems incomplete and one who's background does not add up to who we are told they are. They also both share many qualities. There is a huge mystery at the center of asoiaf, R+L=J. MR=RT is just suggesting that this mystery is even bigger than we thought. So let's begin with the common objections. Here is the description of Mance's appearance. if you have any others please post and we can discuss. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. Height: We know Rhaegar is tall from Dany's vision. we know Jon describes Mance as middling height. the asoiaf wiki also calls him long-legged. We only get the description of Mance being middling height from Jon. this is when the only other people in the tent are styr and tormund, and in the same scene, Jon calls tormund short. middling height in a room full of tribe leaders can still be pretty tall. And this is before all his years north of the wall that could easily arch is back and make him lose an inch. This does not invalidate MR=RT. Hair: While it's nice to see that some of us are self professed experts on hair dye and how GRRM would choose to describe it, I don't know how you can say that the statement Long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey could not be describing someone with silver hair who's hair has been dyed brown and is fading. Eyes: People see what they expect to see. No one expects purple eyes. If you see dark eyes in a smoke filled tent you may very well mistake them as brown. We are human, mistakes are made. Or, Mance is still glamouring his eyes, we know appearance can be changed rather easily from the FM and BR, so I don't know how a difference in appearance can really invalidate anything. Beauty: Again, people see what they expect. Think of all the movies where the hot girl plays an ugly girl but then they have a make over and you realize they were pretty all the time. King beyond the wall is a hard man. People see him as a hardened king. Even if he was beautiful in his youth, that doesn't mean anytime someone views him now they have to comment on how beautiful he is. Again years north of the wall take their toll on a face, same as they do height and personality. Personality: Rhaegar always had a sense of gloom about him. I would argue this was from knowing how this was all going to unfold, with all his family dying. It's one thing to be sad like that when you know a huge tragedy is coming up, but once it's happened and it's decades later people move on. Of course they don't forget but I think Rhaegar learning to still appreciate life and Dalla does fit in with Rhaegar's character. He's still very prophecy oriented, he's still taking steps to save the realm, he's still easily tempted by the charms of women, he still loves creating music, he's still great at everything, he still is a bad ass warrior even though he prefers not to fight. Look at Rhaegar stating, it seems I must be a warrior, and we have a description of mance where they say, Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. In both cases they use swordplay when necessary but not as a first choice. Sword skills: Some as thrown out this as a hurdle but I really don't get that. Clan leaders fight with 2h swords, it only makes sense rhaegar would adopt one as a leader. He's known as one of the best swordsmen, makes sense he would be good enough to defeat the other tribe leaders in one on one combat, more so than some lowborn bastard who grew up at the wall. Despite what some would argue, I don't think growing up at the wall would put you in a great position to be a super warrior, or to be super smart, which mance seems to be. the wall is a bunch of losers. So, I'm sorry but I do not see anything that makes MR=RT impossible. You can say these explanations are mental gymnastics but again, that's your opinion and does not give you the right to try to prevent other people from discussing the theory when you are not adding anything to the discussion, and instead are just forcing us to repeat our reasoning, which you then reject. You are, and I'm here to point out that you aren't contributing anything. And to also suggest, that you're not pointing out that I'm wrong, you're pointing out that you believe I'm wrong. Your treating your opinion as fact rather than accepting that you MIGHT be wrong. I am approaching this theory as "it's probably wrong", yet that's not good enough for you, you have to make it clear that this theory is so impossible anyone who discusses it is worthy of your mockery. Your disrupting our discussion based on this. I understand this is your opinion, again this doesn't add anything to our conversation. I'm asking you to please consider that you may be wrong, that they may not be equatable, and that it's not your place to tell us that a theory is not worth being discussed when you're not adding anything to the discussion. Most of these have been addressed but I know how we all like to glance over responses rather than actually read so I'll summarize once again, mance is long legged and described as middling height by jon in a room with styr and tormund. If rhaegar shrunk one inch from his years north of the wall this description would be completely accurate. Or if jons just thrown off because he's in a room full of tall people. He also calls tormund short. Was rhaegars? mance's attitude is of a person who never learned to take orders, which would fit a prince. he respects magic, is concerned with the mystical aspects of asoiaf as seen by him turning up graves and being interested in the crypts of wf. Rhaegar and Mance have both devoted their lives to prophecy/saving westeros. Another person such as darry is glamored to look like rhaegar, rhaegar was actually there and is somehow healed/revived, no one checked in the confusion of battle. There are a lot of possible explanations. The glamor of another person is what I presented here, so I'm not sure why this is still even up for discussion. If darry is glamored to look like rhaegar, as I said in my op, robert checking his face would make no difference. dark eyes in a dimly lit smoky tent are mistaken as brown by Jon Snow Never once said the theory was right, just looking for you permission to discuss it without being mocked. you're arguments are great for why it probably isn't true, but none of them invalidate the theory. You may not like the theory, but please respect that we view this info differently and still enjoy discussing it. It will be over when you stop mocking people who are trying to discuss a perfectly valid theory. you not agreeing with a theory doesn't make it okay to say that people shouldn't discuss it No, you're pointing out the same objections to MR=RT that have been discussed a million times. I see little text evidence showing MR=RT is impossible. If you're trying to show it's unlikely, you don't need to, we all already know that. But no, you're saying we shouldn't even discuss it because it's impossible and ridiculous. We say you're getting upset because instead of letting people who accept MR=RT as possible discuss this theory, you and others have decided to mock it. to derail the thread because in your eyes it's impossible theory not worthy of discussion. Please stop. I believe GRRM has stressed how easy it is for people not to recognize others in disguise. I view glamors as more of a spectrum and this theory presupposes Rhaegar was versed in them. Even without a glamor I think he'd fit in just fine, but if not he may have still used a glamor. Just by having some dyed facial hair and raggy bard clothing I don't think anyone would look twice, even if they knew rhaegar well. The black crow is a tricksy bird. I agree. the people who get caught do so because they are thinking like fugitives and do stupid shit, like steal a horse. And in the end, the part I highlighted is crucial to my story, once someone is viewed as a worker, or a bard, or a servant or whatever, that's all people see. After so many years, Rhaegar looks just like a man, sure if he dressed up people could recongize him, but as long as he dresses as a normal guy, that's all people will recognize. That's one of the biggest things. Some approach these theories as, if you talk about it you must believe it. I believe it's a good book series as you said, everything else is just exploring possibilities. Some don't want to let us explore the more unlikely possibilities, which is why this thread has become so derailed. False, who are you to say what time frame something fictional happened in. It could be the future, past or present. Just because a scene wasn't published doesn't mean it's still the future in the eyes of the author. Again though, this is one of numerous explanations, all of which you've heard. Please realize, just becaue you call these "mental gymnastics" doesn't make them any less valid. We would assume if GRRM is covering up the biggest twist, he would do everything he could to hide the truth. What's to say GRRM didn't use these same mental gymnastics to justify saying rhaegar was cremated? You can say the ssm doesn't support MR=RT, but it does not invalidate it. You can think grrm wouldn't go through these "mental gymnastics" but some of us think it's possible that he would, or possible that he would lie. So to us the SSM really does not change anything. This is you saying that you are capable of interpreting what the author says and the text of a q&a and being completely confident of your interpretation of it. I am asking you to please consider that you MAY be wrong in your interpretation. Even though you listened to what the author said, so did the rest of us, and we believe mr=rt is still a valid theory. This is not us just trying to justify our personal desires as you view it. Again you viewing the theory as null and void is your opinion and it's wrong. Please respect that others have seen the same books and same ssm and disagree. We can't know whether a theory is true or false, but some of us choose to accept that we may be wrong, and not try to mock others who have come to a different conclusion then ourselves. Please accept that you may be wrong and that you are not contributing to this discussion. Not really, but I would guess summerhall. There seems to be more we haven't been told about summerhall. I think it's that rhaegar was close with the GoHH. Since it was the place he loved best though, I could see him takin Lyanna there and hiding in the ruins. That's the SSM but is not the text of the discussion itself. I most recently saw this point referenced in As you can see, he even references how they shorten the question in the ssm. He provides a link to the original convo but it is no longer working. If you would like, we can post on the small questions thread to see if anyone has a link to the original questions. But yeah, glosses over who finds the body and then ends the q&a right after, raises eyebrows to me. No, I'm fully aware of that, and yet somehow I still view MR=RT as valid. If the SSM invalidates the theory in your mind that's fine but please accept it does not for everyone. The easiest fall back would be, not everyone believes GRRM tells the truth. Personally I think he could still be telling the truth and MR=RT, but if that's too much mental gymnastics for you then fine, let's just say not all of us believe grrm wouldn't lie. He could have been referring to the lord of bones burning as you mention, or rhaegar burning later in the series, or rhaegar frey burning, or rhaegar does actually burn and is resurrected, or again, he may just be lying. Nothing there that invalidates the theory though. Great examples of what he does, but that doesn't change anything. His past habits are not a certain indication of how he answer's future questions. If one question gives away the main plot of the story, he may choose to change his approach on how to answer. You can think he wouldn't do that, you can think he wouldn't lie, please accept some of us disagree and don't view this as a theory killer. I would agree. I think in the end this is the purpose of the Rhaegar/Mance parallels. But just because I think that's most likely doesn't mean I don't enjoy considering alternatives, such as those paralells being there because mance is rhaegar. This is your assumption on how a situation would unfold. GRRM has shown us again and again people not recognizing others they know well e.g arya, pycelle, the guy who goes south with Cat, arstan(jorah) etc. I believe Rhaegar easily could have been walking around WF, even if jaime was there two, and not been recongized. people see what they expect to see. Even just a beard and some brown hair would prob be enough to not be noticed. If we consider that rhaegar may know Glamours it make the lack of recognition even easier. Excellent post! I really enjoy the connections you've drawn to LF, makes me appreciate the theory that he is the third guy in Bran's dream chapter much more! I also really like your killing word thread, I need to revisit, but there were a ton of great points from what I read my first time through. I completely agree! wtf does hair roots have to do with this? You're the one assuming we would have to have mention of hair roots. the quote is, long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. Someone with silver hair dyed brown could easily be described as this. So now your an expert on how one person in a tent evaluates the eye color of another person in a smoke filled tent? and how an author would choose to describe it? yeah, we haven't seen an example of someone confusing purple eyes with brown, does not make it impossible. You can say it's so improbable it's the same as impossible, we disagree. jon sees dark eyes in a dark tent and calls them brown, I am still open to him being mistaken. But okay, let's say that there's no way he could have mistaken it. Well, it could still be rhaegar glamoring his eyes a different color. THere's so many explanations that explain these minor hurdles, sure each one is unlikely but that doesn't make the theory invalid, and that is what we are discussing. I've already discussed twice this post alone, the height fits just fine. Yeah, A guy who was most known for his love of music continues loving music, not the stretch you make it out to be. Yeah he was melancholy, but this theory posits he knew his family was about to die, you'd be melancholy too. We have, repeatedly, you choose not to accept them. So again, why even comment on a thread that is based on MR=RT.. we get that you don't accept it as a valid theory, please accept that others do.
  6. Ygrain, do you honestly believe the people who advocate MR=RT as a valid theory are not aware of that SSM? Do you think we just simply ignore it because it doesn't fit the theory, so we need you reminding us? Or is it possible we are well aware of what GRRM said and still find it completely possible that MR=RT. There are a number of explanations, most of which I'm fairly certain you've heard but simply choose to ignore or write off as unsatisfactory/ a leap. You may not view these explanations as valid but many of us do so, so the SSM you are referencing is not the end all be all game changer you think it is. To throw out one of the 5-7 possible explanations. Rhaegar's body is eventually cremated so GRRM wasn't lying (it would still take place after the events of the trident). The part of that SSM no one likes to bring up is how it was actually a two part question where they also asked who found the body. GRRM decided to gloss over that part of the question, as does every MR=RT dissenter who quotes the SSM as a reason to end the discussion. And that's what really led to this thread. Observing some possible parallels between the two event at the trident, and generating a theory that would help explain GRRM's intent in making said parallels. Exactly. If no significance why highlight them whenever Rhaegar's death is brought up. It seems to me rubies are associated with glamors yes but more so with one's sense of identity, which even fits with the rubies vs garnets thing and how tywin views them. Either way why draw attention to Rhaegar's identity at the trident. I think everyone who thinks MR=RT is complete crackpot and not worth talking about should read your sentiment here, as I agree 100%. To those people reading, I ask you to realize there are those of us out there whom have done just as much research on the subject as you have (if not more) and a significant number of us have come to the same conclusion as Asshai Backwards here. We enjoy considering these narrative implications and view it as a perfectly valid and feasible theory. We have already considered the same old 5-10 tired objections that get brought up during any MR=RT thread and yet we still view it as a valid theory. It's not because we're all just stupid and ignorant, so please be open to the possibility that even though you view it as impossible, MR=RT is not impossible and some of us wish to discuss theories related to it. BTW There is actually a ton of evidence to support MR=RT, as has been mentioned in other threads countless times. Alas though, this isn't even an MR=RT thread, you people are just so intolerant of anything involving rhaegar being alive being discussed that you intrude on threads like this to act like you understand something we don't. Please, consider the possibility that it is in fact the opposite. This is the type of response I was expecting from this thread. As I said before, not trying to convert anyone, just observing some nice parallels that hopefully one day lead to a better analysis than mine. That's a nice theory about dragonglass but I think at the moment we can't deny there is a connection between rubies and glamors. As I mentioned earlier I think it's vaguer than that, and more to do with identity in general. I view some of the lines about the ToHH as evidence towards Rhaegar already having learned to glamor (or in a more vague sense, at least some form of deception that allowed him to win the joust). We have him in his ruby armor, there is a quote about him that goes like, "it seemed no lance could touch him", and then at the hands tourney, we have a lot of elements that paralell the ToHH and we also have Loras cheat. I think this supports Rhaegar having cheated and the comment about, "no lance could touch him" was due to magic. Yeah we would expect there to be a little more about his death. Then again, we'd expect him to be mentioned in asoiaf more in general. I disagree. He's a KG. He's that boss out there killing people left and right that everyone takes note of. It's of course very possible that he died and everything is as it seems, its just that the lack of info we have about it is suspect and is worth taking note of. I would view it as a situation where Mance is more familiar with glamors by this point, so while Mel thinks she has him under her control he's just letting her think that. Evidence would be that Mel says Mance will do her bidding because of the ruby yet we have mance devising "certain ploys", bragging about being able to climb in and out of his room, and evidence suggesting he was doing so to communicate to Val. This all does not sound like someone under Mel's control. More so than this though, I believe most likely if Rhaegar was glamored when he went to the wall to be Mance, he dropped the glamor the day he left the watch. What we see now is actually him, with maybe a bit of hair dye but that's all. This is completely wrong. You deeming a theory such as MR=RT as impossible does not make it so. Please refer me to the posts that should make this thread null and void. If I had to guess, I would say they are probably the same posts I was referring to when I mentioned the same old 5-10 tired objections to MR=RT that have been brought up. They have not added anything new to the convo. We are all aware of GRRM's SSM. We know how mance's eyes, height and hair has been described. This has all been discussed ad nauseum in MR=RT threads, and yet some of us still view MR=RT as a valid theory, and wish to discuss theories that would relate to it. If you don't view MR=RT as valid, then why post here to argue against MR=RT? this thread wasn't arguing MR=RT and therefore didn't discuss the answers to the objections you've brought up. Absolutely! Especially when you consider Aemon Steelsong as Jon's brother and Jon putting him through exactly what Ned/Rhaegar put Jon through. You mean because the one description we have of Mance calls him middling height? Let's remember this is from Jon's POV inside a tent and in the same passage he calls Tormund short. And this is after years and years of the winter's abuse north of the wall, not that far of a stretch.. No, just the 16-17 years taking it's toll with the last 5-10 of them in the most inhospitable environment imaginable. People see what they expect. GRRM has hammered in how easy it is for people not to recognize others. There's multiple theories out there about this, one by tootles comes to mind off the top of my head. There is nothing to say Allister or anyone else Rhaegar knew would recognize him when he came back from North of the wall. Again, between him being glamored when he first goes to the wall, and being old when he comes back from during asoiaf, there is no reason to believe he would be recognized. Except by perhaps Maester Aemon, who let's not forget was visiting mance every single day when he was first a prisoner at the wall before Aemon left. As Ygrain often does. Citing GRRM's SSM multiple times does not add anything to this discussion. Everyone is aware of the SSM and possible explanations have been provided in other threads that allow for both the SSM not to be a lie and for MR=RT. No, it's not. You say this like you're proving a point but you are just flat out wrong by presenting them as equatable . You among others have derailed this thread along with just about every other MR=RT thread.. Please accept that not everyone who views MR=RT as a feasible theory is completely fucking retarded. We have seen your objections and yet we have come up with satisfying answers to these objections and still view it as a valid theory. Perhaps we understand something you don't and not the other way around. I'm not saying MR=RT is correct and everything else is wrong, I'm saying MR=RT is feasible and valid and worthy of intelligent discussion without people taking it upon themselves to try to shut down the discussion.
  7. When I saw the thread title I was gonna hop on and suggest exactly this. So yes, I completely agree!
  8. Ashara is always in the convo so I'm glad you brought her up but to me she makes a lot more sense as quaithe.
  9. Other evidence would be that he and his daughter's ages match up with hh and septa lemore, they are clean and pious like the Hightower's, there's the comment about the golden company having friends in the reach, and the boat being named the shy maid compared to mad maid, his daughters nickname to me this is more evidence than all other theories except hh=hh
  10. Jojen. He sacrificed his first born son
  11. Really though. I feel like he's either leyton or just haldon. Decent chance it's Hightower.
  12. I can understand the frustration with people rehashing crackpot theories and not contributing anything new or throwing out crackpot for the sake of crackpot. Both can be avoided with a google search and the posters unwillingness to do so is worthy of derision. However I disagree it's impossible to come up with new meaningful theories. Most have already been discussed but we are far from solving the great mystery that is asoiaf. We can use the multiple theories of the past and expand on them. Just because something is crackpot doesn't mean it can't be a very solid theory, or at least capture glimpses of what GRRM was trying to convey whilst perhaps confusing parts. There's more to be discovered about what's going on in asoiaf and the best chance of figuring it all out comes from the pooled knowledge of the forum and an exploration of literary themes and parallels. Correct and that's not what this is. Call it a thought experiment if you must but there's a reason people have been claiming Rhaegar is alive so insistently over the years and that's because there's a ton of text to support it. There aren't a bunch of people who view MR=RT as a valid theory because they're bored and are coming up with theories for the sake of theories. They view it as a valid theory because it is one with evidence to support it. If MR=RT than Rhaegar had to survive somehow which leads many of us to wonder how this could have happened. In thinking about this, I view the theory I proposed here as on possiblity that would be supported based on the events of the trident in GOT with Lady's execution. You say there are no new theories but what I have presented here is just that as was my Big Walder Analysis from a while back. IF Rhaegar is alive, I view the events we saw at the trident as being a clue from GRRM. The if is a huge if, and therefore puts my theory in the crackpot realm before I even begin, but I am not looking to argue the qualifier. There is no harm in examining how Rhaegar might have survived, even though it's unlikely it's still a possibility. While examining this in addition to a number of other secret identity theories (which are MR=RT, Arthur=Qhorin, HR=Shadrick and Whent=Kettleback and which I believe all have valid evidence), it got me to wonder who it could be if someone died in Rhaegar's place. Darry makes the most sense, with not much known about his death at the trident. Before this, I had always thought there was a parallel between Lady's execution and Rhaegar's death at the trident. A wolf/dragon fight a baratheon, the wolf/dragon dies and a lady's name is said right before the death. wolf/dragon is the ice/fire dichotomy that is prevalent throughout the series e.g. stannis vs the night's king, Mance's execution at wall vs contents of PL, Bran vs Dany, etc. When I then saw that the deliberations over Lady happened in Darry while Robert was in the Darry high seat it seemed noteworthy enough to share. It seems this is where we differ in opinion. Show me a theory that supports JD dying in Rhaegar's place citing parallels with Lady's execution and Bran's vision in following chapter. I'm well aware the theory that JD fought in Rhaegar's armor is nothing special but I would be highly surprised if someone else used the events of the trident Round 2 to support it. Hell, I haven't seen a theory that even points out the parallels between the two regardless of mentioning Darry. I also haven't seen a theory that suggests Rhaegar burning with a cold light would suggest he's alive as flame in that dream symbolizes life, though I'm sure it's been noted before. Just because there are a million shit crackpot theories doesn't mean they all are. I completely disagree. Discussing events that happened in fact is crawling, if you ever wish to walk then run we must build on the the theories that were already done to go into the realm of the unknown, Crackpot to the layperson, where theories are supported by multiple lesser theories. I'll admit, I did not go into the hundred lesser theories that would be necessary to support all my points here. I said as much in the OP. For me, the bigger problem in the community is people who do nothing but criticize while offering little textual analysis of what they view as wrong with a theory. Who kill threads such as MR=RT because they feel offended it's been discussed before. If we have all this info available and people still are big proponents of MR=RT, it's probably because there's text that supports it. Fair enough, but my thread was not to establish that Rhaegar=x, it was to discuss how he may have survived and how the events at the trident would support Darry dying in his armor, if later we learn that's what happened. I get you think it's pointless to do this but I disagree. As can I, but I am like you when it comes to the "unless the OP..". For this thread I do not believe I have done so. And I'm not above a good mockery, it just get's out of hand when you actually are trying to present a new idea. I can completely sympathize with that, but please realize, that really wasn't the analysis part of the theory. I introduced that as, Here I will mention a few quotes that would be nods from GRRM that Rhaegar is alive. A nod is less than even a hint. It's something that if Rhaegar was alive is true we'd look back on and say "damnnnnnn, clever George". Kind of like Selmy saying that Rhaegar was above all able. If MR=RT, that's a huge smack your forehead moment when you realize oh shit, he is Abel. Or when Jon says Mance's blood is no more royal than his. I did not want to us this thread to defend Rhaegar surviving, I wanted to move past that and discuss the trident parallels and how that could match up with JD and the Darry, so I did not go into a full analysis of the evidence supporting Rhaegar living. Perhaps it was a mistake to include the section of quotes at all, but if Rhaegar is alive I think each one of those quotes takes on a whole new meaning. This is true haha, I said very small note!
  13. Man did I do something to personally offend you as you've been on a tear this thread? As I mentioned in a previous comment I recognize this is crackpot but if we're going to evaluate asoiaf I do believe we have to at least consider the possibility Rhaegar is alive, especially considering how much evidence supports MR=RT. In my evaluation I noticed parallels between that two incidents at the trident and evidence that Darry could have been involved in both. Your comments like "so you're willing to believe" suggest I believe my theory is the most likely explanation of asoiaf, when I can assure you I realize it's a longshot. You say that because they knew it was the wrong wolf that completely invalidates the parallels but that's not the case at all. There's still quite a few parallels of note, without JD being the one whom died, but if we assume it was him the parallels go even further. If you find no value from the analysis that's fine but that speaks just as much about you as it does the analysis. Thank you for the kind words, nice change of pace! If I was a betting man (I am) I would put my money on his death as well. Very true, so it would have to be a case of poetic license. That or GRRM just does glamors and such in a way that explains it. Real world, no way this could happen. A fantasy series though, just maybe.. Seriously.. I'd appreciate if you try to be funny somewhere else. I'm relatively new to these forums but I have to ask, have you ever contributed anything of value here. You're doing a great job recognizing my theory here is crackpot and making jokes about it, but have you ever done the opposite? Build something? Create a theory? You and way too many others on this forum love to shit on crackpot theories. It creates a hostile environment not conducive to the sharing of ideas and theories, which is necessary for us to learn and evolve our understanding of the series, which is the reason many of us come here.
  14. Good question. Let's remember that this whole theory is predicated on BR sending Rhaegar help through dreams/ GoHH. Let's say the glamor ended as soon as JD died, it very well could have just been the plan that they bleached JD's hair and then BR cleans up his face after he dies to conceal the switcheroo. Concerning how the crows got in, even if they weren't warged by BR there's a great chance they could get in his helm and devour his face. A wild animal after food is pretty efficient at getting to it. I would assume most styles of helmet would allow enough entry to mess up a face with the birds just trying every entry point and wiggling it around. Once we add them being warged I think it's pretty easy to believe BR got in there and devoured some face. nom nom nom
  15. Jaime comments on how crows feasted on Rhaegar. It is a common theme that crows devour corpses after a battle, and they usually go for the head head and eyes first. Aegon's face is mentioned because he was presented before a court and because he was a baby, death by face being crushed in is significant, especially when considering if he could still be alive. For Rhaegar crows eating his face would not be very noteworthy (though it is noted). Jaime already said crows eat him, are you saying we would need a separate comment saying this was done to the point of being unrecognizable? we know so little about these events to begin with Rhaegar's face being unrecognizable due to crows eating it is not something that would need to be spelled out to us. RS was also being burned alive which could add to the difficulty of maintaining a glamor. Between Jaime commenting on the crows eating Rhaegar and the possibility of a glamor, it is quite possible that JD dies in Rhaegar's armor and is not able to be identified afterwards. Especially if Rhaegar is better at glamors than Mel. That's not how I remember phrasing it, from my OP "Another thing to note is that House Darry resides at the Darry. I don’t know of any other houses who’s seat is the same as their last name. Draws attention to Darry the person=Darry the castle, their highborn and castle being conflated. Their sigil is the plowman and the apartments where they sleep are called the Plowman’s keep. They are very straightforward in their naming/identity, whereas this theory is suggesting JD embraces the exact opposite by assuming Rhaegar’s identity at the trident. " So, thank you for giving a couple of other houses who are in the same position that I had not considered. This would change my statement to, "there are very few houses who's name is the same as their castle" It still has the same significance, just to a slightly lesser extent. The castle and family have the same name which connects them in the readers mind. Again, all I said was, "Draws attention to Darry the person=Darry the castle, their highborn and castle being conflated." It's a simple observation that the two concepts are conflated. This in addition to their keep being named exactly what it is, plowman's keep, are two things in which the Darry's naming and identification is very straightforward, which would contrast the idea of him dying under a false identity as I mentioned. So no, this premise is not false. I overlooked a few examples of lords sharing their name with their castles but it still quite rare and would still be viewed as significant if Darry died as Rhaegar. This is pretty insignificant, especially if Rhaegar and Ned were both there when it came time to name. Either way though, I would expect there to be some half truths surrounding the birth of and naming of Jon, as his secret identity is the center of the story. And if not, the name was kind of just an added connection, the rest of the parallels mentioned still exist without it. I disagree, as I said WOIAF using this term is a very small note overall so it too is pretty insignificant, but to say that BR isn't heavily associated with mist is incorrect IMO. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have?’ the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King’s Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. We see him glamor as Maynard Plumm, and Mormont's Raven IMO shows BR wargs animals as well. With 2/3 being true it makes sense to assume the 3rd is most likely true as well. Next we have Bran's 3EC dream from the chapter IMMEDIATELY following Lady's execution. The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. "What are you doing to me?" he asked the crow, tearful. Teaching you how to fly. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes. "What are you doing?" he shrieked. The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil,.. We can debate how heavy of an association this is, but I think the evidence is there to warrant calling BR and mist "heavily associated" I view the parallels between the events at the Battle of the Trident and Lady's execution as having enough similarities to be noteworthy, especially given that the latter happens in Darry while Jon Darry is a prime candidate for a Rhaegar armor swap. If you think these supposed parallels don't exist or are insignificant so be it. I probably should have made this more clear but I realize this is heavy tinfoil. The main point here was to explore the similarities that exist between the two scenes at the trident if in fact there was some trickery going on with Rhaegar's death, and how those relate to Darry. Food for thought, not trying to make any converts here.