Lord Corlys Velaryon

Members
  • Content count

    121
  • Joined

  • Last visited

1 Follower

About Lord Corlys Velaryon

  • Rank
    Sellsword

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Vaes Leisi

Recent Profile Visitors

1,095 profile views
  1. Atlas of Ice and Fire

    In line with Lord Varys, I'd guess that the Golden Company landed at the base of Massey's Hook, instead of anywhere near Stondance. That said, I think Bittersteel was quite desperate at this stage: The Blackfyres were soundly beaten in the Third Rebellion, if perhaps only towards the end. With Haegon's murder (very likely) at the hands of Aerion, Aerys probably showed leniency to Blackfyre supporters (helps to explain how the Yronwoods are still so powerful, plus the likes of the Reynes & the Peakes decades later if they fought for the Black Dragon again), as he did with Bittersteel. If so, the Blackfyre loyalists would have retained a measure of power they could swear to the Black Dragon in a future campaign, but which wouldn't be for another 17 years - Bittersteel had to regroup, rebuild, wait for Daemon to come of age, & was most like seeing out Maekar's reign (especially if the Peake Uprising was a Blackfyre plot). Support is going to wane over that much time, especially after three defeats, even among some Blackfyre diehards - Bittersteel wasn't able to take proper advantage of anti-Targaryen sentiment (particularly Haegon's murder), especially once Aerys died & Maekar ascended. Meanwhile, those who were more only sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause, were only punished lightly (if they actually fought for the Black Dragon at all). That would embolden some to fight against the Targaryens again if it came out to, but I'd wager it turned more towards them. Despite likely being a better claimant & potential king than his nephew, Aenys was usurping the Blackfyre succession & certainly wouldn't have had the support of Bittersteel & Daemon at the very least. Even with another Blackfyre murdered by a "Targaryen", this time Aenys by Bloodraven, Bittersteel wouldn't have been able to utilise it as much he could've with Haegon's death. Particularly once singularly suitable Egg was crowned & swiftly punished Brynden for his crime with the appropriate sentence. The Golden Company would've already been seen far more as dangerous sellsword invaders (a fair number of them foreigners) than gloriously & justly returned Westerosi heroes. Bittersteel was ever more bitter & kept losing. Daemon was born & raised in Tyrosh/Essos, essentially a foreigner. That's all going to blunt local support for the Blackfyre cause. It's all-but-confirmed imo that this is when Torwyn Greyjoy betrayed Bittersteel: Frankly, any alliance with the Ironborn as a primary ally is desperate - Robb more likely than not wouldn't have sent Theon to his father had Lysa supported him, the Targaryen forces during the Wot9pK were greatly aided by Quellon & his 100 longships, etc. The 1st BfR was virtually only a land war & Daemon was basically winning until the end, Bittersteel wasn't involved in the 2nd, & although also unsuccessful; faired far better in the 3rd than 4th. The Golden Company wouldn't have had the naval strength, most likely only hired ships & crews no less, to take on the combined power of King's Landing, Driftmark, & Dragonstone - perhaps not even any one of them. However, the Ironborn could, perhaps especially if the intention was for them to send a reaving feint to say the Bay of Crabs to lure out the ships of Dragonstone & Driftmark, whilst the main fleet entered Blackwater Bay (whether by sea or portaging their longships from the east) to eventually ferry the Golden Company across the Bay & fight with them. Bittersteel would know their local support had waned since the 3rd & was a shadow of what it was during the 1st - their best chance was a quick & successful strike on King's Landing itself before the Targaryen loyalists could rally to the defense Egg & his royal family. This helps to explain the Massey's Hook landing instead of say at the Yronwood river (or Wyl) where they had strong & certain support, or at the Mander to attempt a 1st-esque rally of the Reach. And an ironborn betrayal certainly helps to explain how the GC were only able to make it to the Wendwater to meet Egg & his army - Torwyn likely tipped him off & may have even fought with him given how amazingly few men that the royal forces lost. If that last is the case, it could have been an inspiration for Quellon to continue military cooperation with the Iron Throne during his own time on the Seastone Chair. As much as he was a reformer with the New Way; Quellon was a warrior & knew the benefits the Old Way could provide if utilised wisely, instead of doing away with it completely, unlike Harmund III. Quellon's men still would've paid the Iron Price to at least some degree against their dead foes, as would Torwyn's. Indeed, the chronology in TWoIaF suggests that the progressive Loron (possibly once a hostage of the Mallisters after Dagon was defeated) was most likely the only other Lord Greyjoy between Torwyn & Quellon, particularly as Dagon was Quellon's grandfather - it's not unlikely at all that Torwyn was even Quellon's father.
  2. The ASOIAF wiki thread

    Just wondering. What's the source for the "500 other survivors of Robb's army" on the March on Winterfell page? Is it an estimation of Karstarks (only?) among Roose's host at Moat Cailin in Reek II of Dance?
  3. Story about Black Swan

    What a fucknuncle! Anyway ... @HouseFossoway Well said, I agree. Johanna may have met (& known) Saera Targaryen, the second youngest daughter of Jaehaerys & Alysanne who fled from her motherhouse (for the training of septas) to Lys, before owning her own "pleasure house" (hopefully she at least distinguished herself by not having slaves as her prostitutes) in Volantis. As much as I would like a Black Swan novella as well, it's extremely unlikely GRRM would ever write & publish one. However, I do think she will at least be mentioned - if not appear - in Fire & Blood (perhaps even beforehand in a novella covering at least the Regency, which he wrote far more about than what was published in The World of Ice & Fire). She came to rule Lys in all but name. Who ruled it after the fall of the Triarchy? The Rogares. Now, I suppose it's possible she did whilst the Triarchy was still together, perhaps even at the height of it. However, I think you have it spot on with her & the rise of the Rogares. Who's the only Lysene from that time we know for certain was an admiral? Sharako Lohar. Who could have been a murderous rival of his for Johanna's affections, especially if they were also Lyseni? Lysandro Rogare. Who had custody of Prince Viserys after the Battle of the Gullet? Sharako Lohar. Who ended up with custody of Viserys & matched the young prince with his daughter? Lysandro Rogare. I think it wasn't just about the Black Swan, but Aegon III's only male (male-line) heir for more than 12 years. Perhaps Johanna ruled whilst (rather briefly, before his death) with Lysandro, though I think she did from 134-c.136 when both Lysaro & Moredo were at court with Larra & Viserys. Still, some rise from sex slave to defacto ruler of Lys & the Rogare Bank! And she easily still could've been at least highly influential in the years Lysaro was in Lys before his fall. For whatever reasons, perhaps waiting for a more opportune time when Viserys could actually consummate his marriage or make a shot for the Iron Throne with him if anything happened to Aegon (Baela & Rhaena, at least, could still ID their youngest brother), it seems like Lysandro was waiting to reveal his ward. But some time after his death (double Faceless Men hit against he & Drazenko?), this policy seems to have changed. I think Johanna convinced Lysaro though, whether with talk &/or, affections. And the timing works out very well with Oakenfist potentially finding out whilst visiting Aliandra at Sunspear on his way back from clouting the Ironborn. We know that Johanna Westerling-Lannister (fucking hell, another character from this time we need to know more about!) lent the Crown gold (laugh it was the 1/4 of Aegon II's treasury that Tyland sent to Casterly Rock) for rebuilding costs, I'm guessing it was most like just before Alyn left the west. Particularly also as thanks for all of his help, plus the Lannisters were able to recoup a great deal that Dalton's reavers had stolen. As @Lord Varys has theorised before, Alyn likely ransomed Viserys without orders from the Regents to do so, even though he may have actually been Aegon's heir at the time. And if Johanna did lend him gold, but Alyn picked up Viserys before returning to KL, then he also dipped greatly into his own wealth (whether bolstered with spoils taken from the Ironborn or not) to pay the enormous ransom. That could easily have sat poorly with his captains & sailors, but they continued to follow him, still at only ~18 years of age. We know that Aliandra showed "great favor" to Oakenfist, which likely involved at least a reduction of her encouragement of her men in raiding the Marches (& perhaps sexual attraction), but I think also some part (great or small) in Viserys' ransom. Especially as she was in-laws (not to mention Dorne military, political, & trade partners with the Triarchy previous) with the Rogares not too long before. (She may have even had child/ren with Drazenko, though the MUSH has that as otherwise. There really would be a great irony if the Targaryens - some of them anyway - were kin to the Martells before Daeron II & Mariah's sons. The Dorne-Triarchy & Aliandra-Drazenko relationships are ones I really want to know more about too). I think the Rogares & the Lyseni Spring are going to be central to the Targaryen dynasty, Alyn & Viserys in particular, from the Regent Wars all the way to Aegon IV's reign (& beyond). (I can expand on this if you like, but this specific post is already long enough. I do think Serenei was a Rogare descendant, though). A final point on Johanna - I think she was Viserys' primary educator on economics during his time hidden in Lys. A nice, but weird, parallel how he was the same for Elaena whilst she was in the Maidenvault.
  4. Friends in the Stormlands

    @Lord Varys Good points. Yeah, I've long wondered what the Stormlords wil be doing going forward, in particular those from the Marches. And that's a good addition with mentioning their prowess as archers (though very few Dothraki have dragonbone given it's rarity, as it's prized by them, however, Jorah does say they are better than Westerosi ones - presumably besides weirwood - so they likely get them from the Forest of Qohor or Ifequevron). Now, it may be that Aegon & JonCon will court the Marcher lords directly if some of their forces head west against the Ironborn (though I don't see this until Aegon claims King's Landing or Tarly defects to him before facing him in the field - then he could take his army to the Reach) or with envoys (I doubt it, more like it will just be ravens), but I think the primary motivator for them to join the (first) Targaryen campaign or not will be the Dornish. Surely, the Carons & Dondarrions at least. Doran has what, a host in both the Prince's Pass & the Boneway, of perhaps ~10000 men each. Easily powerful motivators to choose the side that they do, or if they actually raid/attack the Marches on the way through (would the Yronwoods, etc perhaps be bold enough to demand Marcher castles for their fealty?) to Aegon, to perhaps oppose them say when Dany arrives. I very much lean towards the former, though I certainly think the latter could be possible. (That said, the Dornish may not have been awarded any marcher castles Tyrion promised, certainly not any major ones). As @Scorpion92 proposes, Edric (along with perhaps a number of the Brotherhood who seem to have split from LSH's group with him) could perhaps be a factor here. A boy of only ~13, but the Lord of Starfall, Beric's squire, & perhaps guardian of his bones/ashes (I don't see them dragging a rotting corpse that far) until he can be set to rest at Blackhaven. On a different track to Scorpion92 however, that perhaps he is a factor for getting at least the Dondarrions to declare for Aegon. If Edric doesn't get Dankstar'd for Dawn (or survives, or simply goes to Blackhaven first), he may match Allyria (mayhaps she's even at Blackhaven instead of Sunspear) with some male Dondarrion to keep the alliance going (not only between the Houses, but to a degree on a greater level between Dornish & Marcher), or perhaps instead marry some female Dondarrion himself. We don't know if Beric had any heirs, close or distant, but I tend to think someone is at Blackhaven with a claim. Whatever the case, much (if not all) of Blackhaven's strength at home as it doesn't seem they declared for anyone during the Wot5K. How much do you think they can marshal? They & the Carons had ~4000 men & ~800 cavalry between them against the 206 Vulture King, but I tend to think that is towards the upper limit (indeed, they likely attracted a fair number of Ser Arlans, & there's all the wars the Stormlands have fought in since). Most like Blackhaven can field at least 1000 men currently, though I'm not sure I would say more than ~1500. Whatever the case, they presumably need a Dondarrion or trusted vassal of theirs still to lead them though. Despite them seemingly not being at the Blackwater, do you think House Dondarrion lost any lands afterwards? Presumably, some measure of the Nightsong strength marched (& died) with Lord Bryce. Despite Philip Foote being awarded Nightsong, it's not unlikely some of the lands were awarded to others post-Blackwater, perhaps particularly landed knights bordering the Reach. Did the surviving Caron men have to swear their service to Philip? Are they part of Randyll's army, which seems to contain most of the Stormlanders in the field for the Crown. Whatever the case, I'm very confident that Philip has not set foot in Nightsong yet. AFAWK, the Lannisters didn't take any hostages that could perhaps be used against the castellan or any of the garrison. Garlan took what, ~20000 men, to claim Brightwater - Philip may only have a few men in his service, likely fewer than 100, imo. The Lannisters haven't given him any forces to make good on his claim, neither have the Tyrells. Presumably, he's either been at court, or in Randyll's host, or with a Lannister one. I'm inclined to think that Bryce didn't have any immediate/named heir, especially with Rolland claiming his brother's seat (although serving a rival king certainly is part of that). If so though, I'm surprised the Freys have not (AFAWK) argued their own claim to Nightsong through Perra. Unlikely really (particularly given her age & own rather high place in the Frey succession - as per normal lordly inheritance anyway), but I wonder if perhaps there has been some ravens between the Lannisters & the Freys, for a match between Perra & Philip to consolidate the claims. I wonder what strength Nightsong has left? Bryce would've had some trusted man behind as castellan, especially as Rolland wasn't it. But how much influence would that guy have in marshaling remaining Caron forces among the domains? I think the forces of Nightsong may be somewhat negligible compared to what actually happens to the castle itself, with who ends up with it. According to the A World of Ice & Fire app, Harvest Hall is between Blackhaven & Ashford, which certainly makes sense being on the northern edges of the Marches - more apt for the wheat fields their sigil & castle name suggest. They declared for Renly & had some strength at Storm's End, likely also some foot at Bitterbridge. We're not sure who after His Deadshitness, but I lean towards neutrality (if they could, which is a stretch) or the Lannister-Tyrells, rather than Stannis. The Selmys are doing better than the Carons & Dondarrions in the currently ruling lord department, if not also outright succession. That kind of stability helps, as does their seat & lands not being so close to the border. That said, whether they are effectively neutral atm or with the "Baratheons", I think they would only add perhaps ~500 men to Aegon if they were to join or defect to him. Like Blackhaven, I think Stonehelm is most key among the Marcher seats currently. AFAWK, the Swanns have perhaps only lost a few (dozen) sworn swords with Balon &/or Donnel, with their father keeping them his knights & men-at-arms at home. Now, as noted up-thread several times, Lord Gulian hasn't been keen to commit forces to anybody, but also there's hints that the Swanns may switch (nominal) sides again. I doubt that will be under Lord Gulian, unless perhaps Donnel is able to convince him o/w. Though I think the elder son is more likely to be with Randyll's forces (or has been at court) than at Stonehelm, perhaps trying to prove his loyalty to his current king. If Dankstar, Obara, or Hotah kill Balon & his father hears of it, I don't imagine it will send him running to Aegon with the Dornish set to join him, & their forces being a threat since ACoK. Nevertheless, a Balon vs Donnel scenario would be very interesting, if very unlikely. And if Clifford isn't actually a name change for Gulian & has actually usirped to become Lord of Stonehelm, well then the Swanns very well may declare for Aegon & JonCon - particularly being the closest of the Marcher lords to the Golden Company forces atm. Despite seemingly heavy losses during Robert's Rebellion, the Swanns surely can field +1000 men atm, perhaps even as much as 2000.
  5. Errors in the WOIAF

    @Lord Varys Ran has said somewhere (that I don't have linked on my tablet, but do on my currently charger-less laptop), perhaps in the Inconsistencies thread, that basically Reach-attacking Qhored (i.e. "the Cruel") is a different one to the Justman-extinguishing Qhored, with the former as a driftwood king & the latter a hereditary king. Indeed, that there were multiple Qhored Hoares during both periods. On Hardhand's background, remember that: Slavers & pirates from the Stepstones were attacking the North, Riverlands, & Vale (perhaps also the Stormlands &/or Dorne) at least during the Worthless War. The Basilisk Isles have been ruled by corsair kings at least as far back as c.700BC when Nymeria & her Rhoynar were there. Indeed, the Freehold abandoned their last Sothoryos outpost (Zamettar) c.1700BC & perhaps also the Isles themselves then too. After all, they wouldn't need them for Zamettar anymore & they had other places like their own mines to send their criminals. The paragraphs before Harwyn is brought up in "The Black Brood", suggests that since at least the Famine Winter (geez I want a dating on this! c.500BC?) that the Ironborn engaged in the New Way with the Free Cities, the Old Way in the Basilisk Isles & Stepstones, & a Quellon-esque combination of the two as sellsails for them there. The Freehold, particularly the dragonlords themselves, have actually been quite insular for much of their history; only involving themselves when needed, instead preferring the comforts of & power in Valyria. The trade wars & reavers would've very, very rarely (at best) have actually threatened one of their Daughters - let alone any of the others closer to & directly controlled by Valyria - & if they did, then the attackers would get the Second Spice War or Scouring of Lorath treatment. And even then, Rhoynar then or during earlier wars migrated to & assimilated with the Valyrian colonists of Myr & (some of) the remaining Essosi Andals likewise with Pentos. Really, I think for the most part, the Freehold would've benefitted from all of these various conflicts - particularly with the slave trade.
  6. Funny little questions

    @Lord Varys Yeah, I'd lean towards it being the Peakes. I think Starpike is roughly halfway between Horn Hill & Nightsong, south-east of Highgarden. If so, then I think it makes the most sense for that kingdom to have been ruled from a central-located seat, with the number of larger (Hightower, Gardener) &/or belligerent (whatever Dornish) kingdoms around them. This theorises that Dunstonbury is located at/near the confluence of the Mander & the "Goldengrove river", which I could see being the case. Although it reduces the believability of the Manderlys escaping the Reach c.700BC - having to sail past the Gardeners themselves. Instead, I think the Manderly seat is either south-west of the Highgarden where the Mander bends, with their lands perhaps having extended as far as the river's mouth. It makes the escape more plausible, along with having more ocean-suitable ships to do so with, & is more apt with the name of House & river. Given the classic Westerosi neighbour-esque feud between Peakes & the Manderlys & easier control for the former for ~900 years, I think Whitegrove sits between Highgarden & Horn Hill with adjoining lands to Starpike & Dunstonbury. Attewell's positioning of Whitegrove, whatever that of Dunstonbury, doesn't make much sense to me. If Dunstonbury was at the confluence, then I could perhaps see Whitegrove east of Highgarden instead. Rather, I think the castle is named for a weirwood grove. It's likely that the Manderlys &/or Peakes held it prior to the Andal migration to the Reach, perhaps even founding it. They are both First Men-founded Houses, & "Whitegrove" suggests a pre-Andal raising anyway. Now, the Royces have the geographically distant Coldwaters & Tolletts as vassals, though I think that is a layover from Robar II (though perhaps also influenced by more recent events). It makes far more sense to me, given various historical events (Florys, Gwayne III's judgement, daughters of Garth X, Manderly exile), that Starpike & Dunstonbury - with Whitegrove in between - are on Highgarden's south doorstep. The Marches kingdom was absorbed into the Gardener realm some time before Garland II & likely Meryn III, perhaps under Garth V "Hammer of the Dornish" for just that. If the Peakes were the kings of this realm that bent the knee, they more likely than not would have lost the Tarlys, Carons, etc as vassals then. If so, our ambitious Peakes would've looked to increase their power again & perhaps that led to the fued with the Manderlys. (If the Marches kingdom was brought in before Gyles I (particularly if under Garth V), it could help to further explain his actions, in trying to conquer the last major bordering kingdom in "the Reach". Perhaps this is when the likes of the Florents &/or Blackbars, if they had once been Hightower vassals - which "headwaters of the Honeywine" suggests, ceased to be so with how far Gyles conquered). Most likely, the episode of the feud during G-Fat's time had to with fighting over Whitegrove, or at the very least the lands that would come to be sworn to it. That they had to do fealty to him, could perhaps even suggest one or both had broken away & become a petty kingdom. Later John "the Tall" at least was still getting (border) petty kings to bend the knee, after all. Though Yandel refers to Peake & Manderly as "Lords", so it make it unlikely, more so if Dunstonbury & Starpike are located close to Highgarden. (I wonder how Gwayne settled their dispute ... Given the general Gardener philosophy, especially if Garland II was not long before him, he most likely did so with marriage. Whether that was for both with his House, or between the those two feuding - perhaps forming a new one at Whitegrove of their blood.) I agree that it's safe to assume that the Tarlys weren't the Marches kings, although as @The Grey Wolf says, the Carons could still be a possibility (perhaps the Swanns held a rival Eastern Marches kingdom, including the now Dondarrion lands).
  7. (Obviously) Rhaenys Targaryen & her husband, the Sea Snake. Truly why would take an essay-length (or multiple) post for both. Simply though, she was the Queen Who Always Was (up there with Alyssa, Rhaena, Alysanne, & Elaena) & Corlys was her counterpart (up there with Jaehaerys & Viserys II).
  8. Certain Problems Regarding the Legacy of the Kingmaker

    @The Grey Wolf I'd say different historiography & personal predicaments: Particularly in his earlier years, Cole was quite the tourney champion & LC for near two decades - particularly appealing to Jaime. Not to mention, he "championed" Rhaenyra (i.e. Cersei) & then turned to Aegon (i.e. patriarchy, especially as Tywin's son) via Alicent (another Cersei parallel), but of course played the game of thrones (something Jaime disdains for KG in an active role - of course he has his own hypocrisy her with twincest, etc, but whatever) in doing so. Jaime's main source would be the White Book (favourable to Cole until the Dance at least) & snippets of partriachal based learning from his youth. Gyldayn & Yandel meanwhile scrutinised Cole & his relationships more, i.e. Cole was actually an utter turd, but Jaime sees him as more grey (perhaps also personally coloured by his own journey). He was still a massive player before & during the Dance, but Alicent overshadows him because she was perhaps the only competent Green commander. I disagree with Otto - Alicent also trumped him & the only thing he did of note during the Dance was recruit the Triarchy. Before he was right up there towards his daughter much of the time, but he was quickly cast aside & killed during the war because his power & competency had diminished. Meanwhile, Cole is particularly highlighted by Arianne, Arys, & Barristan given their specific parallels to him or those he challenged, thus portaying him as having been such a major figure. Again, those with a similar predicament for or against the patriarchal model of Westerosi succession are more likely to be for or against Cole by association of his "kingmaking", instead of his relationship with (grooming of Rhaenyra). Arianne doesn't think of him in terms of the latter, because her KG is on her side. Instead, she associates Cole with Anders Yronwood (Quent's foster father, & of perhaps Dorne's most patriarchal House). She also has the far more culturally & historically apt Nymeria, instead of Rhaenyra, to disassociate from the "romantic" side of Cole - therefore the Andal tradition of brother over sister with him instead. Also for Arys, he stayed with his princess instead, so as a KG is more like to be troubled by his "game of thrones" aspect with Cole. Barristan of course only has an aspect applicable of disdain for KG playing politics - something he is thrust into by situation (& being manipulated by Skahaz). He was a steward's son (only for the Dondarrions, so not even on the level of the Pooles & certainly not the pre-Conquest Tyrells), so despite his natural (& developed) martial prowess, he didn't have the development into an actually skilled battle commander like say Daemon (royal learning privilege, dragonrider, plus experience). He was also blinded by his arrogance & hate for Rhaenyra & the Blacks - like how Tywin is controlled by his emotions & is rather average commander. Rook's Rest was a stupid plan that got lucky more dragons didn't come (it'd be very easy for a raven to have been sent to Daemon to help at the very least), whilst denuding KL of defenses (dragons, projectiles, & men) as Cole & Aemond would again later. Even still consolidating, the Blacks had the power to crush the Greens at Rook's Rest or take the capital earlier instead - even if they had of known about Rhaenyra being crushed by Luke's murder, it was a massive gamble. One that didn't pay off for them with ~1000 potential KL defenders killed (the gold cloaks would've had a harder time later if they were still around) & Aegon & Sunfyre almost killed. But yeah, it's just one of the Green commanders problems with what we know about the Dance, nevertheless. @Curled Finger Interesting, I argue the opposite for Jaime in point 1 - he has less information than the historians, not to mention his own life colouring his perception.
  9. Ranking the Targaryen kings from best to worst

    I find it hard to differentiate a distinctly quantifiable ranking between many of them, so in general terms: Best = Viserys II, Jaehaerys I Good = Aegon I, Daeron II, Maekar I Satisfactory = Aegon III, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II Poor (i.e. really bad) = Viserys I, Daeron I, Baelor I Shithouse (i.e. really, really bad) = Aegon II, Aenys I, Aerys I Worst (i.e. really, really, really bad) = Maegor I, Aegon IV, Aerys II. The Satisfactory kings are rather close to the Good ones, which in turn are also to the Best. Then a large gulf down to Poor, which is also quite close to Shithouse & Worst though. Female rulers, regents, political players, &/or consorts: Best = Alyssa, Rhaena, Alysanne, Rhaenys (the Queen Who ALWAYS Was), Elaena Good = Visenya, Rhaenys, Maegelle, Alicent Hightower, Laena, Jeyne Arryn, Baela & Rhaena, Naerys, Melissa Blackwood, Bellegere Otherys, Mariah Martell, Daenerys, Betha Blackwood, Rhaella, Elia Martell. Satisfactory = Alyssa's Targaryen mother, Ceryse Hightower, Alys Harroway, Aerea & Rhalla, Jocelyn Baratheon, Alyssa (sister-wife of Baelon), Aemma Arryn, Helaena, Larra Rogare, Daenaera Velaryon, Daena, Rhaena, Serenei of Lys, Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose, Dyanna Dayne, Kiera of Tyrosh, Aelora, Daenora, Shaera. Poor = Tyanna of Pentos, Falena Stokeworth, Barba Bracken. Worst = Rhaenyra. Again, there's not much difference between Best & Good. The Satisfactory women of royal power are ones that we don't know enough about yet &/or they had mixed results. Although I think Aegon (just) had the better theoretical claim (bloody hell, Jaehaerys!), I back Rhaenyra's instead (after the true Queen Regnant, Rhaenys, that is of course). That said, Rhaenya was almost as horrid as Aegon & Aemond, & was as incompetent. (Meanwhile Daemon was an utter monster, but generally competent). She was a terrible ruler & squandered so much of her potential & advantages. @Emie Good list, though I think Viserys I & Daeron I are far too high & Aerys I to a lesser extent. If I may, why did you rank them so? @Adam Yozza Same as Emie, plus the Unworthy? @Jon's Queen Consort Again, the same as Emie. Also, why the Conqueror & the Concialiator so low though?
  10. The ASOIAF wiki thread

    @Rhaenys_Targaryen I understand all that, I'm including the info from the extended chapter (vassals augmenting the Lannister force with their own levies before the camp battle with the Reynes) & frankly over TWoIaF published if need be. It's not as biased (I know different section, but it's still Pycelle & Yandel), it fills in missing details (because of course Tywin would be so nice to Rohanne & Cerelle), & even with Tywin's rapid momentum campaign; the four Houses mentioned in TWoIaF wouldn't be the only vassals to respond to Tywin's call. The Westerlings would've been declining before this (indeed, some of the lands & mines they've sold are more likely than not to have been to the Reynes) & were never a top-tier military power (Lannister, Reyne, Crakehall, etc) in the Westerlands anyway. The Stackspears are even more forgettable, not only in the same department. And the Plumms & Baneforts are roughly middle of the pack. There's just no way they are bringing ~7000 men between them, to boost Tywin's then ~6000 to ~13000. Particularly not in 261 & on such a short time-frame. Even in 298 (after almost a decade of summer & peace) with all the extra weeks to gather their men, that would really be a push, if not just outright wrong. Alone, TWoIaF could possibly make ~6500 original & ~13000 final work, but no way with the extended chapter too. Not to mention everything else I addressed with logistics & that the text points far more to ~3000 combined than ~3000 each. It fits far better for it to be ~3500 initial, boosted to ~6000 by the time of the camp battle with levies from 14 Houses (12 of them unnamed lesser lords - Houses that probably can't even martial 500 men each in the very best of conditions, most like only clocking in ~200 or something on average), & finishing at ~7000 at Castamere. Tywin had just about the opposite & ideal circumstances in AGoT in contrast (indeed, his hiring of foreign sellsword companies, likely means he was planning to some degree even before Cat took Tyrion) & yet the Lannisters only field what, 35-40k in invasion forces. The Reyne-Tarbeck revolt only drew active strength from ~1/4 of the Westerlands, with some ~2750 men from the same quadrant in opposition. Casterly Rock & Lannisport certainly help a great deal, but ~13000 men at that time & in that time, just doesn't work. Multiply that by three (perhaps sufficient for factoring in Casterly Rock) & you have the host in ASoIaF - ~39000 men in less than a 1/4 (if not 1/6, perhaps even 1/8) of the time. ~7000 expanding to ~21000 instead, New Ghis fielding a ~36000 men invasion force is far more ridiculous than even the Lannister numbers! What mega fleet abandoned the city for weeks to deliver ~12000 men north of the river? If the Yunkai-led alliance had these numbers from New Ghis, the latter would be in charge, & a storming of Meereen would even be a genuine possibility. ~36000 is more than what the North or Stormlands can marshal & field, from lands possibly as large as half of that of Skagos, because Ghiscar is rekt. That makes sense.
  11. Is the Tarly-Mooton marriage a foolish one?

    Good points, particularly with Eleanor as a potential hostage. Maidenpool could still pass to a younger son or daughter of her & Dickon eventually, though. And Randyll & Melissa, still have three daughters besides, with Talla at least of a marriageable age. A younger child of Dickon & Eleanor could be married to a female Tarly-line cousin to consolidate a claim even more. And even with patriarchal & misogynistic as fuck Randyll, isn't by no means impossible for Talla or one of her sisters to not only inherit Horn Hill, but still keep it under the Tarly name (Lady Oakheart, Lady Waynwood, Lady Mormont, Lady Stokeworth, Lady Whent - there's the possibility that there are Tarly cousins we don't know about yet, etc). Indeed, unless they get back to the Reach (& even then, Euron's fuckery to come), Randyll & Dickon don't have the highest chances of living past the end of the series.
  12. The ASOIAF wiki thread

    How certain are the numbers of the Lannister forces on the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt wiki page? Both sources say "3000 men-at-arms & crossbowmen", not "3000 men-at-arms AND 3000 crossbowmen", for the original host from Casterly Rock. Bowmen of any sort are generally in the minority of infantrymen (& to an even lesser extent among men on horses, which I think Tywin's initial host all may have been, helping to explain the sheer mobility advantages they had against their foes) in Westeros, let alone crossbowmen specifically, particularly for a host that was on the attack & not defending a castle or city. Among ~6500 men total, ~3000 crossbowmen seems quite impractical, tbh: The garrison of Dragonstone is traditionally ~30 knights, ~100 crossbowmen, & ~300 men-at-arms. The Golden Company only has ~1000 bowmen among ~10000 men, & only ~333 crossbowmen specifically. The escort of Tywin's body back to the Westerlands only had ~100 crossbowmen, with ~300 additional men-at-arms, & ~lords of the west (sidenote: are the men that would be sworn to those lords, escorting & defending them, among those ~400?) In the Second Siege of Meereen, the Yunkai-led alliance only has ~300 crossbowmen (from Elyria) mentioned specifically. The New Ghis legions are Unsullied-lite (although the war elephants would certainly have crossbowmen upon them), I think the Qartheen camelry are meant to be more like heavy Westerosi cavalry than say Dothraki archers, I don't see even the "Wise" Masters giving their slave "soldiers" ranged weapons (besides perhaps spears) besides possibly a very low number of bowmen, & the Long Lances (completely?) & Windblown at least have high percentages of cavalry. Among a pre-Volantene fleet inclusion (which'll be the Targaryen alliance's before it even gets to Meereen, anyway) Yunkai host1 of ~20000 absolute minimum, perhaps ~30-35000, I'd be very surprised if more than 20% are crossbowmen (I'd guess perhaps 10%, 15% max); let alone +25% ... 1 I'm rather skeptical that New Ghis, even though it would surely flog Astapor at least in prosperity (particularly per citizen), could field an invasion force anywhere near ~36000 being smaller than even Astapor. It just doesn't have the lands to draw from like the other Ghiscari cities do, which we know they all have extensive hinterlands, indeed being the only plausible explanation for how the hell the Yunkish were able to have so many slave soldiers so fast (being from their hinterland estates that Dany neglected). I think Qarth could, certainly with the inclusion of its fleets, as it could draw from its vassal towns/cities & I'd be very surprised if it didn't control a good deal of northern Great Moraq (if not, even more of the island to that vast forest in the south). And it sits on an even more prosperous naval trade route, anyway. We don't even know if New Ghis bothers to exercise great control over Ghaen - it doesn't look particularly fertile - & we know Ghiscar isn't exactly a foodbowl & population centre. Two of the Ghiscari legions are north of the city & Skahazadhan, I'm guessing the ones that arrived later by ship. It makes more sense imo if the ~6000 legionnaires that Barristan notes at the Harridan are at least two of the legions that marched to Meereen combined, if not all four. The two legions across the river could certainly be larger than those that marched, particularly coming by ship (if the New Ghis ships were large enough, which they certainly could be for such a comparatively prosperous port city). New Ghis' six legions totaling roughly ~9000 men, ~12500 maximum, sounds more apt I think. As a sidenote, I'd have to imagine that the various cities of Slaver's Bay fought over the Isle of Cedars after the Doom - there has to be a treaty in place to explain why it's basically uninhabited & untouched during ASoIaF (& presumably for decades at least before). It should be riddled with pirates, reavers & corsairs; unless the various fleets work in unison to prevent such & really crack down hard on their own who set-up as such, in stark contrast to say the Three Daughters (where even state-sanctioned piracy is rampant at times). Back to the actual topic at hand ... Although Tywin marshaled his men before ("with all his preparations complete" plus he would've needed to have taken control of the household & maester/s so say Tytos couldn't interfere - he had overrode him eventually just ~1 year before, after all) sending the treason bait summons to the Reynes & Tarbecks, 6500 men just from Casterly Rock & Lannisport is really a long stretch, whilst keeping sufficient defenses in place, & in haste (there's only so long Tywin could control & hold his advantage). He only called the banners after receiving the "defiance" of both Castamere & Tarbeck Hall, even an already tyrant like Tywin would know he needed to "legitimise" his imminent brutality against them. And he very likely left within a day of sending out the ravens to other vassals - Tywin couldn't afford for Roger to be able to marshal up to ~8000 men with himself (though I think this includes not only his vassals, but the Tarbecks also, & certain other allies), or even half that. I think it would've taken Kenning, Prester, whoever else lives on that peninsula (if Tywin could trust), & Sarsfield levies at the very to make up the ~6500 quota, perhaps even the Leffords &/or Marbrands too - & it'd be quite the stretch I think that the Tarbecks or the Reynes wouldn't learn of their neighbours marshaling their forces. And even with the Lann's Point (?) vassals, Ellyn was able to send her own knights down there to seize Stafford & the other two Lannisters, rather no worries considering they got back to Tarbeck Hall fine (afawk). Assuming that Tywin only left the Rock with ~3500 men, he'd possibly be down to ~3000 after the battle against Walderan & his ~500 knights/cavalry (I wonder how many squires counted among/also with them) & the Storming of Tarbeck Hall. Though of course by the time the Red Lion attacked the Lannister encampment, they'd been augmented by the forces of the Marbrands & Presters, along with "a dozen lesser lords"; to have ~3 times the men he did. If Tywin had ~6500 men when he left the Rock, it completely clashes with the ~6000 he's only meant to have against Roger's ~2000. That is unless the rumours that Tywin had Roger outnumbered 5:1 are actually true (though I'm inclined to believe that was just one among many of the pro-Lannister manipulations of the historical record). Even with the addition of the forces of two middling lords & a dozen lesser, ~3000 men between them combined (~200 men each, many/all mounted) seems apt to me: Out of ~11000 Westermen, there would've been a couple/several thousand casualties (battles, non-combat deaths, serious injury, missing/deserters), just the year before with the Wot9pK in the Stepstones. All Houses in the Westerlands would've been affected by that, Lannister loyalists perhaps even more so by fronting higher percentages. The Westerlands had been rather chaotic & bloody for 10-15 years before that, for what was technically peacetime. That's going to have an extra negative influence on gathering men. The Lannister supporters probably only had say a week to get there, from Tywin calling the banners, before the Reynes. And if Tywin's initial force was fully mounted, it could've been as little as say four days. Even the Westerlings could only join the Lannister host after the Reynes had retreated into Castamere. The Lannister supporters would've been vassals of the Rock rather close to the Tarbecks or the Reynes/the line of march, with some (certainly the Marbrands at least, & not among the "14", I'd guess the Westerlings) having been preyed upon in various ways by Ellyn, Roger, & Reynard. So, the ~13000 Lannister men at Castamere comes from the additions of Banefort, Plumm, Stackspear, & Westerling men ("swollen to twice its original size"); but I personally find two middling & two minor lords at best, fielding 750-1000 men (Tywin likely having ~9500 men, give or take ~500, after Roger's attack in this scenario) each with only a couple of days extra at most, a bit hard to believe. Perhaps even more than 1000 men each ("the battle that ensued was a closer thing than might have been expected"), though I very much doubt the Reynes were able to cause casualties of more than half their own number, most like not even a quarter. If Tywin had ~6000 men at the "battle of the camp", then I'd imagine he only had ~7000 at Castamere (double original). Furthermore, a host of ~13000 men is probably going to have even more difficulty keeping itself fed (Castamere's food stores were seemingly vast majority/all, underground) within a few days (which it took to make it Reyne) & marshaled so fast, without some serious foraging &/or importation. Unless of course Tywin had Tarbeck Hall's stores cleared out before putting it to the torch, but I'm leaning towards he didn't. Admittedly, I only questioned this after reading Race for the Iron Throne's latest (historical) essay (& "commandeered" the alternative figures from there). I'd looked over the figures on the wiki many moons ago & agreed (without digging deeper into it as the former caused me to). TL;DR: Original Lannister host = ~3500 men, instead of ~6500? The latter is too high, has far too many crossbowmen, & so ~13000 men at Castamere is also too many - ~7000 there seems more like - all (sort of) imo, of course. Oh, wiki New Ghis is OP as fuck, & Slaver's Bay & surrounds needs far more world-building in future ASoIaF/world books.
  13. Is the Tarly-Mooton marriage a foolish one?

    As the others have said, it could be down to "friends in the Reach" (whether Tarly actually had forewarning or not, I don't think he did, but he will be one) &/or the economic potential of Maidenpool. TWoIaF mentions that the River-kings of old denied the likes of Maidenpool, Stoney Sept, & Fairmarket city charters so that the Houses ruling them couldn't become over-powerful. This also continued under the Targaryens with Lord Darklyn, influenced by his wife Serala who could see how economically backwards Westeros was with feudalism (like Volantis has a few, it's not a giant leap that some of the other Daughters may have their own "vassal" cities - & even if not, Myr & others gained certain freedoms, economics included, from Valyria) sought out more rights - perhaps a city charter - from Aerys. We know that Duskendale once had quite the monopoly on trade in Blackwater Bay & had the now Crownlands been more developed & stable, it certainly could've rivaled White Harbor & Gulltown in terms of wealth, power, & population; but just maybe even Lannisport as well. Of course the fortunes of Duskendale waned somewhat under the Targaryens & the rise of King's Landing, though there of course would've been some benefit from that as well. Hell, Hull & Spicetown combined did even more trade than KL (~100 years established & already the largest city in the realm) for a time, but not even the Velaryons had the leave to move from a town to a city. Indeed, with Maidenpool itself, it wasn't connected to the Kingsroad with an arterial road (certainly not a major one anyway), but instead to KL via Duskendale - ensuring to a degree that its trade would be tied with KL & not more independent of it. Just look at the other kingdoms too & it's obvious imo that the development of cities (even large towns) was restricted there too: Barrowton never became the economic heart of the North it had the chance to be - existing population base, perhaps the best grazing & crop-growing lands (surely the largest anyway), proximate to the Ryswell horse-breeders, river access to the Sunset Sea. Even the relatively powerful & I'd imagine wealthy House Dustin of Barrow Hall, still only has wooden walls & square towers, instead of stone & round respectively. White Harbor grew into a city because of the Manderlys wealth, power, & experience they brought from the Reach, & the necessity to properly & permanently defend the White Knife, thus allowing the Starks to finally end the Worthless War by seeking peace with Sisterton & the Eyrie. Before Braavos' founding some centuries later, White Harbor wasn't a great deal situated better than what Barrowton was - the Iron Islands were generally far more progressive & trade-friendly under the Hoares of the time, & so that could open up opportunities also to Seagard & Lannisport, & even beyond. IIRC, we don't even know of any towns in the Vale! (Well, besides Sisterton). Gulltown was pre-existing to the Andal invasion & although Gerold Grafton would've been a "sage & clever ruler" (to see his House continuing ruling the port through such a transition), I think the rise of the town into the city would've had more to do with the tide of Andal migrations coming to the Vale, & then the Riverlands, via Gulltown. By the time the Arryns had consolidated their power in & over the Vale, they couldn't restrict Gulltown. And for the same reason anyway it was also beneficial for them to welcome their Andal cousins, but make sure they moved on to the Riverlands. A similar deal with the Westerlands - the urban & economic centres of Casterly Rock being Lannister controlled &/or founded. Kayce & Faircastle were already established by the time the Lannisters extended their kingdom there, but those two had been restricted from the chance of expanding with the Ironborn, but Casterly Rock made sure they didn't benefit too much from Lannister rule (House Prester's Feastfires being so close, & the Farmans having their naval power limited). As they expanded their territory eastwards with the Andal migrations, they could control the development of towns there too. Although more internally stable than most of the other Seven Kingdoms, the Stormlands had the perhaps the most unstable borders, & neither do they seem to have ever been as focused on trade as frankly parts of any of the other kingdoms. The Planky Town isn't as developed as it could be & indeed House Dalt, most likely to have control over the port (or at the very least potential to benefit greatly due to proximity & situation at the mouth of the Greenblood), are only landed knights. I don't think the Shadow "City" has the same potential, but nevertheless, it literally clings to Sunspear anyway. And finally the Reach ... Ashford, Bitterbridge, Brandybottom, Cobble Cover, Cuy, Dosk, Grassy Vale, Little Dosk, Lord Hewett's Town (interestingly, it's twice as "large" as Lordsport, which itself is "larger" than the hovels of Pebbleton - home of ~7000 people - so I'd have to imagine that LHT has a population of 10k at the absolute minimum), Nunny, Ryamsport, Starfish Harbor, Tumbleton, & Vinetown are all known towns in the Reach, some very prominent port or market towns. I'd have to imagine that the likes of the Oakhearts, Fossoways, Peakes (at least once, anyway), other Hightower vassals, Merryweathers, Rowans, Florents, other Shield Islands, Tyrells, & Tarlys have their own as well. And yet pre-established Oldtown is the only city in the Reach o.O ... I personally think that one of the reasons that the Manderlys were hunted out of the Reach is they began over-stepping their bounds with Dunstonbury (almost certainly towards the mouth of the Mander, west of Starpike, north-west of Horn Hill, south-west of Highgarden, & north-west of Brightwater Keep/Honeyholt), starting to develop it into a city during the reign of the weak Perceon III, giving Lorimar Peake the casus belli to manipulate the king into driving out his House's eternal foes & claim their castle/s & lands. Although House Tarly received some minor land increases after the Blackwater, Brightwater Keep was arguably "stolen" from both in terms of inheritance & reward; all whilst Tarly was in the field at Duskendale & then Maidenpool (that could only be draining his House's finances, because it's not like he & his men are plundering the town & area) where he couldn't argue to Tywin (in private) for Horn Hill's case over Garlan's. Meanwhile, the Fat Flower claims Tarly's triumphs, Ashford in particular, & is driving House Tyrell & the Reach to ruinous war with his over-ambitions. So Tarly has to make his own rewards elsewhere. If he were to become prominent in say a Targaryen regime independent of the Tyrells, he could perhaps push for more autonomy & economic freedoms for Maidenpool, among other things. TL;DR: Possibly with a change from a Tyrell backed "Baratheon" regime to a "Targaryen" one, House Tarly could potentially benefit through House Mooton of Maidenpool. He actually has at least two, & mayhaps they all would've gone "hunting" with Randyll eventually (if it weren't for the shitstorms in ADoS to come) ...
  14. Small Questions v. 10105

    Within days of his coronation, Aegon's armies were on the march again ... Summoned to the defense of Harrenhal, Tully declared for House Targaryen instead, raised the dragon banner over his castle. (TWoIaF, The Conquest) AFAWK, Aegon only revealed the heraldric banner of House Targaryen at his coronation. So how could Edmyn know of its design, have one made, raise it above Riverrun, then ride out to Harrenhal, & arrive outside Harren's castle by the time (if not before) Aegon's forces do? Short of collusion between Aegon & Edmyn a deal earlier than just at Harrenhal, or I'm just misreading/over-analysing the text, the only explanation I can think of for this is that Aegon actually did reveal the Targaryen sigil in a way with a seal for all of the ravens he sent all across Westeros before the Targaryen forces left Dragonstone. As a side-note: I'd have to imagine that the Citadel at the very least knew of the possibility for a Targaryen invasion for years given that Dragonstone had its own maester (with ravens for many Houses across the Seven Kingdoms), most likely commissioned by Aegon himself when he & Visenya visited Oldtown & the Citadel "in their youth" (not to mention perhaps also maps to have the Painted Table made).
  15. Small Questions v. 10105

    Not to say, slither my own Sea Snake, but I've been saying this for ages on r/asoiaf: (unfortunately) there's never* been a (known) successful Queen Regnant (not a case like say Marla Sunderland, who I think was used as a puppet by her brother besides) for any of the First Men or Andal/mixed royal dynasties, petty or great. And so, such surely played greatly into 92AC & 101AC precedents (& to a lesser degree that of 48AC) for the Targaryen dynasty ruling all of the Seven Kingdoms. The First Men royals practice essentially Salic Law, the Andals do the same to continue that tradition to not displease their FM vassals, & the Targs keep it going (particularly with how much of a clusterfuck the Dance was & how Rhaenyra did so much to hurt her cause, & so that of her female descendants). Agreed, it was presumably the same sort of thing for Jeyne Arryn, the Maiden of the Vale. After seeing what Baelon's forcefulness (thanks for the confirmation in the RhaenyraxDaemon thread, btw) on Viserys did to (her half-sister? cousin?) Aemma (had they waited until she was at least 16, it certainly wouldn't have been as bad), the horror that was Rhea's (more likely than not a friend of hers, & at least distant kin through Hubert besides) marriage to Daemon (at least part-wise arranged by Baelon & Yorwyck), & possibly Royce being an ass as her Regent; there's no surprise that she would be both turned off by marriage & seceding any of her power to a male (again). *Though I must say, can we be certain that Gardener woman was a Queen Regnant & not just a great Regent for a son or an unfit-to-rule brother or something? Does "succeeded to the Oakenseat" seal that she was a QR? I suspect there was numerous cases of a female heir of a Great House pre-Conquest (as you said in the Jaehaerys is a "usurper" thread - the cases of Serena & Sansa Stark we have for even under Targaryen rule, hell, multiple times for Baela & Rhaena with Driftmark) married off to some male relative (even if of the female-line himself) to bind their claims & for him to rule in her stead upon succession. True, particularly with how central power with the Kingdom of the Storm was with Storm's End - they didn't have highly-threatening vassals &/or dangerous internal rebellions like the Starks, Gardeners, Lannisters, & even the Martells did. And of course even more unique circumstances, but it didn't help Argella Durrandon though. According to the legend, Alyssa had brothers, & a husband besides. So without a retcon in TWoIaF, that's troublesome. It's also hampered by the brothers part (unless for whatever virtually impossible reason they were actually there at the time), but I think Ronnel's Stark wife may have become part of the Alyssa legend. Not sure I follow - so the Lannisters would be that Andal House taking over Casterly Rock to be the ones to survive to the present? @Bael's Bastard - Exactly. And as Lord Varys said - I think the difference between royal FM-Andal succession (essentially Salic Law) & lordly FM-Andal inheritance (generally, male preference primogeniture), excluding Rhoynish-Dorne obviously. Just on the overwhelming part - where do you fall on the "20:1" for Viserys over Laenor ratio? Crock of shit, imo. No way Laenor loses by that much with the support of Houses Velaryon (you can be sure that Corlys & Rhaenys were doing everything they can get push his claim, including splashing the wealth around), Baratheon, Stark, Blackwood, Manderly, etc. Not to mention perhaps for a GC to even be called in the first place. And although there were many other factors playing into it, how much support the Blacks had during the Dance - indeed, the Greens specifically studied who voted for who in factoring in potential supporters (& dissenters) before Aegon's coronation. I think it would've been closer to 2:1 than 20:1. Also, like how it was said to have played a factor in Egg's ascension with the GC of 233, do you think the gold of Casterly Rock (particularly as a foil to Driftmark) helped Viserys (if likely a smaller amount) in 101? Tyland would get a Council position once old enough after all, & yet there's no mention of the Tullys, or the Tyrells or Hightowers (all but confirmed as Viserys supporters, imo), gaining (more) royal favour. Interesting, I've never considered that. I'd just put down cases like Jeyne & Cersei down to the Great Houses only being lordly post-Conquest, if helped by royal favour though. Meanwhile, more culturally & ethnically Northerners still pushed more for male rulers - Sansa & Serena, "She-Wolves" for their children & not themselves, etc. That makes a lot of sense, particularly with Alysanne's influence (generally) on her brother-husband & that would also have then played into their Second Quarrel! This is a very interesting one ... Though I'm more inclined to believe that Garmund wasn't Ormund's heir, & perhaps not even of his line, just some cousin or nephew or something. Corwyn Corbray was dead in 134AC & so it may have been headed by Thaddeus Rowan, Munkun, or Torrhen Manderly before the end of the Regency for Rhaena's match with Garmund - when Morning was perhaps still alive & perhaps even able to be mounted. A Targaryen-Hightower match makes a great deal of sense trying to heal from the Dance, but you don't give perhaps your only bonded dragon (by far largest anyway) over to the Hightower & Oldtown, or Rhaena herself for that matter. I'm more inclined to believe that at least for a time, the couple resided at court instead (geez, Aegon, Baela, Rhaena, & Viserys would all want to be around each other as much as they could after the fuckery of not only the Dance, but also the Regency). Of course only an indicator at best, but there is the MUSH - completely void of their line. Indeed, the legitimised bastard line set to inherit (a Jon becomes Lord Hightower & a Hand to Aegon IV, after all) some time after 143AC could potentially play into the canon Targaryen-Hightower relations. To not be younger than Tywin, Viserys could only become Hand 143 at the earliest, but I definitely get the impression that he was Hand for Aegon for a decade or more. Legitimising Lyonel & Samantha's children would be a further peace-making boon from the Crown for the Hightowers, whilst perhaps also furthering Rhaena & Garmund's daughters (with dragonrider, & imo GEotD, descent) from the succession ... Daughters that are then perhaps married not into the Hightower line, but among the likes of the Dondarrions &/or Penroses instead. I get the impression, that like Winterfell at least, that all of the Iron Islands have still tended to the classic FM succession of essentially no women even post-Conquest. But anyway, I'm not sure what a possible precedent from Oldtown would have weight here. It's generally the same for all the "greenlands" - daughter before nuncle. Plus, Goodbrother's maester would know that not only was Asha the preferred (if not, chosen) heir of/by Balon, but also that the Ironborn would be less shitheaded under her rule compared to Euron or Vic - something that would be preferable for Oldtown & the wider realm. What do you think of the possibility of her also having female-line Dustin descent to help with such? Not only with say William's death, but Ned was fine with her ruling as the dowager lady, if it would pass to her Ryswell kin with her death anyway ...