Lord Corlys Velaryon

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About Lord Corlys Velaryon

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    Vaes Leisi

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  1. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    The grossly inaccurate pro-Renly & anti-Stannis comments in this thread gave me the sudden fever that left me bedridden in 126AC. Those utterly correct anti-Renly & pro-Stannis points are what healed me from it.
  2. Atlas of Ice and Fire

    @The Grey Wolf How do you think the Golden Company could raise such numbers so early in its existence with afawk, higher casualties & more frequent losses than in recent times, though? Primarily from exiles? Aerion & Brynden's urges need not have been public during say court, could easily have been behind closed doors with perhaps the Grand Maester of the time providing us with the account. Aegor's trial may have only followed after this discussion. What do you think happened to Haegon then?
  3. Atlas of Ice and Fire

    @Lord Varys The 3rd is certainly a possibility, but makes far less sense than the 4th, imo. For Bittersteel to seek alliance with the ironborn so soon after Dagon's reaving (which was only eventually defeated with royal intervention, possibly as late as 218 after Maekar became Prince of Dragonstone after Aelor's death) ... he doesn't seem to have been desperate enough. The Blackfyres would lose too much support from the Reach & Westerlands, the former definitely their main local support base & the latter arguably second-only, for it to be worth it. Not to mention, the Ironborn strength would be not be high so soon after Dagon. And although it sounds like he prematurely ended his rule Brandon the Shipwright-esque, TWoIaF chronology seems to have Alton at the least sitting the Seastone Chair between Dagon & Torwyn. If there were naval battles in the 3rd & Torwyn was part of that Rebellion, then Aegor probably would've had to have been supported by the Redwynes (or some Reach contingent most likely led by them) for their to have actually been battles. The Velaryons, Lannisters, & Arryns all-but-confirmed stayed loyal to the Targaryens, whilst Kiera of Tyrosh was most like still kept at court by the Crown to ensure Tyrosh wouldn't fully support (if at all) the Golden company with a fleet. And that's if she wasn't already married to Daeron. Despite sacking Qohor, that Bittersteel & his fellows had to sell their swords in the first place, means that money wasn't flowing into the Blackfyre invasion fund from Westerosi or Essosi supporters. Qohor probably only provided the capital to be able to launch the invasion, but not strengthen it with other hirelings, in the first place. Why don't you think it was Aerion who murdered Haegon? His "actions" are contrasted to the heroics of his father & youngest brother, & along with Brynden (the only other prime suspect) he called for Aegor's execution. Not to mention, it does add fittingly to his Monstrous moniker. And if a member of the royal family did such a heinous deed to an unarmed prisoner, it helps to explain Aerys' leniency in sending Bittersteel to the Wall (the very highest sort of traitor - just look at his eacape on the way) & very likely also to the likes of the Yronwoods, etc who fought for the Black Dragon again. ~10000 men as the strength of the Golden Company during the 4th (or the 3rd) is perhaps a little high, especially as they may not have suffered a serious defeat in the 40 years now since the Wot9pK & seemed to have been rather cruisey in recent years besides under Homeless Harry. Whereas it was only 17 years between the 3rd & the 4th, when the Company was likely still growing & diversifying their ranks. Isn't Tion the only Westerman, or indeed non-Crownlander, we know for certain who took part on the royalist side at Wendwater? Particularly given the relationship between the Crown & the Rock at the time, he was more likely just at court when the war was declared than having been home & bringing a Westerlands force.
  4. Atlas of Ice and Fire

    @The Grey Wolf In the History of Westeros episode on either Bittersteel or the Golden Company, either Aziz or Steven Attewell (yeah, I need to go back & listen to them again) speculated that the Peake Uprising may have been a Blackfyre plot to kill Maekar, to pave the way for a less challenging invasion sometime afterwards. I've long thought that the Peake Uprising was not just a rebellion from Starpike, but actually a forceful land-grab of Dunstonbury by the Peakes obviously for themselves, but also to secure a landing point for an incoming fleet carrying the Golden Company. (Near the mouth of the Mander, with the intention of sweeping upriver & trying to gain support among the Reachmen as Daemon I had at the start of the 1st - likely with eyes on taking Highgarden, similar to Aegon with Storm's End). Except Bloodraven got wind of it so Maekar was able to put it down quickly - he did have Reynes with him after all, who weren't necessarily at court during winter, unlike Egg's squire Tywald Lannister who would've been. The Targaryens dealt with the Peakes so swiftly that Blackfyre scout ships in say Oldtown learned of the outcome of the Storming of Starpike & Bloodraven calling the Great Council, returning the news to the main fleet before it could even pass through the Redwyne Straits. Without a secure landing point & the gamechanger of Maekar's death & the GC, Bittersteel decided to turn around to put forth Daemon III's claim with the power of the Golden Company behind their back. However, Bloodraven lured Aenys to KL well before his relatives could get back to Tyrosh to resupply, with them learning of his death (along with perhaps Egg's ascension) before they could make it to say Blackwater Bay. So, the Golden Company returned back to Essos to try again & I'm guessing when Bittersteel decides to seek an alliance with the Seastone Chair. That he did at some stage, makes me think that the Velaryons stayed loyal to the Targaryens all throughout the Blackfyre era, especially as Bloodraven was holding back the royal fleet during Aerys' reign too. The Aziz/Steven is more likely, at the very least because of it's comparative simplicity. Although I'm not sure how the Peakes thought they could get away with it without direct Blackfyre support. The timeline isn't especially helpful, particularly with at least some lords of the realm travelling all the way to KL for the GC, although perhaps the Northerners may have been able to send their votes in via raven - it was winter, the Starks were related to Egg through marriage, & Edwyle may not have been +16 yet. And the Golden Company could have easily been delayed with logistics, storms, pirates, etc. Also I think "a warning to any who might still have Blackfyre sympathies" is better explained if there was actually the possibility of Daemon presenting his claim in person, or at least represented by say Bittersteel or another relative, with the Golden Company looming. For the moment, I lean towards my headcanon along with the History of Westeros proposal as part of it (or at the very least, perhaps attempting to hammer & anvil Maekar themselves - Bittersteel & his men - which also would've produced the chance of taking Egg hostage). Anyway, I tend towards the Battle of Wendwater Bridge being the only one between the royal forces led by Egg & the Golden Company, but there was a number of other localised battles across the realm: Yronwoods vs Marcher lords &/or other Dornish (as it seemingly happened in the 1st & 3rd too), likely the Brackens vs the Brackens, possibly something in the Reach (especially if including Hightower vassals &/or some continued fallout from the Peake Uprising) &/or the Three Sisters (the Sunderlands dragged them into two of them, but it was only themselves that were at the 2nd), etc. Yes, the royal losses of <100 men is hard to swallow (though less so than what we're told about the Field of Fire), however this is why I think Torwyn actively fought against Bittersteel, perhaps with his longships sweeping upriver to catch them as they were crossing (along with the Targaryens attacking at the same time). The Ironborn may have suffered more losses than the Crownlanders &/or the details may not be necessarily accurate as towards the royal casualties. We've seen with the Vale mountain clans in ACoK just how well raiders can dispatch scouts in the Kingswood, so the Golden Company could've easily been in the dark essentially. Not to mention, there was the Stormlander ambush of the far larger Targaryen army that killed more than 1000 of Orys' men & he had the scouting advantages of Rhaenys on Meraxes on his side (although I'd guess she was perhaps grounded or watching their rear instead at the time).
  5. Atlas of Ice and Fire

    In line with Lord Varys, I'd guess that the Golden Company landed at the base of Massey's Hook, instead of anywhere near Stondance. That said, I think Bittersteel was quite desperate at this stage: The Blackfyres were soundly beaten in the Third Rebellion, if perhaps only towards the end. With Haegon's murder (very likely) at the hands of Aerion, Aerys probably showed leniency to Blackfyre supporters (helps to explain how the Yronwoods are still so powerful, plus the likes of the Reynes & the Peakes decades later if they fought for the Black Dragon again), as he did with Bittersteel. If so, the Blackfyre loyalists would have retained a measure of power they could swear to the Black Dragon in a future campaign, but which wouldn't be for another 17 years - Bittersteel had to regroup, rebuild, wait for Daemon to come of age, & was most like seeing out Maekar's reign (especially if the Peake Uprising was a Blackfyre plot). Support is going to wane over that much time, especially after three defeats, even among some Blackfyre diehards - Bittersteel wasn't able to take proper advantage of anti-Targaryen sentiment (particularly Haegon's murder), especially once Aerys died & Maekar ascended. Meanwhile, those who were more only sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause, were only punished lightly (if they actually fought for the Black Dragon at all). That would embolden some to fight against the Targaryens again if it came out to, but I'd wager it turned more towards them. Despite likely being a better claimant & potential king than his nephew, Aenys was usurping the Blackfyre succession & certainly wouldn't have had the support of Bittersteel & Daemon at the very least. Even with another Blackfyre murdered by a "Targaryen", this time Aenys by Bloodraven, Bittersteel wouldn't have been able to utilise it as much he could've with Haegon's death. Particularly once singularly suitable Egg was crowned & swiftly punished Brynden for his crime with the appropriate sentence. The Golden Company would've already been seen far more as dangerous sellsword invaders (a fair number of them foreigners) than gloriously & justly returned Westerosi heroes. Bittersteel was ever more bitter & kept losing. Daemon was born & raised in Tyrosh/Essos, essentially a foreigner. That's all going to blunt local support for the Blackfyre cause. It's all-but-confirmed imo that this is when Torwyn Greyjoy betrayed Bittersteel: Frankly, any alliance with the Ironborn as a primary ally is desperate - Robb more likely than not wouldn't have sent Theon to his father had Lysa supported him, the Targaryen forces during the Wot9pK were greatly aided by Quellon & his 100 longships, etc. The 1st BfR was virtually only a land war & Daemon was basically winning until the end, Bittersteel wasn't involved in the 2nd, & although also unsuccessful; faired far better in the 3rd than 4th. The Golden Company wouldn't have had the naval strength, most likely only hired ships & crews no less, to take on the combined power of King's Landing, Driftmark, & Dragonstone - perhaps not even any one of them. However, the Ironborn could, perhaps especially if the intention was for them to send a reaving feint to say the Bay of Crabs to lure out the ships of Dragonstone & Driftmark, whilst the main fleet entered Blackwater Bay (whether by sea or portaging their longships from the east) to eventually ferry the Golden Company across the Bay & fight with them. Bittersteel would know their local support had waned since the 3rd & was a shadow of what it was during the 1st - their best chance was a quick & successful strike on King's Landing itself before the Targaryen loyalists could rally to the defense Egg & his royal family. This helps to explain the Massey's Hook landing instead of say at the Yronwood river (or Wyl) where they had strong & certain support, or at the Mander to attempt a 1st-esque rally of the Reach. And an ironborn betrayal certainly helps to explain how the GC were only able to make it to the Wendwater to meet Egg & his army - Torwyn likely tipped him off & may have even fought with him given how amazingly few men that the royal forces lost. If that last is the case, it could have been an inspiration for Quellon to continue military cooperation with the Iron Throne during his own time on the Seastone Chair. As much as he was a reformer with the New Way; Quellon was a warrior & knew the benefits the Old Way could provide if utilised wisely, instead of doing away with it completely, unlike Harmund III. Quellon's men still would've paid the Iron Price to at least some degree against their dead foes, as would Torwyn's. Indeed, the chronology in TWoIaF suggests that the progressive Loron (possibly once a hostage of the Mallisters after Dagon was defeated) was most likely the only other Lord Greyjoy between Torwyn & Quellon, particularly as Dagon was Quellon's grandfather - it's not unlikely at all that Torwyn was even Quellon's father.
  6. The ASOIAF wiki thread

    Just wondering. What's the source for the "500 other survivors of Robb's army" on the March on Winterfell page? Is it an estimation of Karstarks (only?) among Roose's host at Moat Cailin in Reek II of Dance?
  7. Story about Black Swan

    What a fucknuncle! Anyway ... @HouseFossoway Well said, I agree. Johanna may have met (& known) Saera Targaryen, the second youngest daughter of Jaehaerys & Alysanne who fled from her motherhouse (for the training of septas) to Lys, before owning her own "pleasure house" (hopefully she at least distinguished herself by not having slaves as her prostitutes) in Volantis. As much as I would like a Black Swan novella as well, it's extremely unlikely GRRM would ever write & publish one. However, I do think she will at least be mentioned - if not appear - in Fire & Blood (perhaps even beforehand in a novella covering at least the Regency, which he wrote far more about than what was published in The World of Ice & Fire). She came to rule Lys in all but name. Who ruled it after the fall of the Triarchy? The Rogares. Now, I suppose it's possible she did whilst the Triarchy was still together, perhaps even at the height of it. However, I think you have it spot on with her & the rise of the Rogares. Who's the only Lysene from that time we know for certain was an admiral? Sharako Lohar. Who could have been a murderous rival of his for Johanna's affections, especially if they were also Lyseni? Lysandro Rogare. Who had custody of Prince Viserys after the Battle of the Gullet? Sharako Lohar. Who ended up with custody of Viserys & matched the young prince with his daughter? Lysandro Rogare. I think it wasn't just about the Black Swan, but Aegon III's only male (male-line) heir for more than 12 years. Perhaps Johanna ruled whilst (rather briefly, before his death) with Lysandro, though I think she did from 134-c.136 when both Lysaro & Moredo were at court with Larra & Viserys. Still, some rise from sex slave to defacto ruler of Lys & the Rogare Bank! And she easily still could've been at least highly influential in the years Lysaro was in Lys before his fall. For whatever reasons, perhaps waiting for a more opportune time when Viserys could actually consummate his marriage or make a shot for the Iron Throne with him if anything happened to Aegon (Baela & Rhaena, at least, could still ID their youngest brother), it seems like Lysandro was waiting to reveal his ward. But some time after his death (double Faceless Men hit against he & Drazenko?), this policy seems to have changed. I think Johanna convinced Lysaro though, whether with talk &/or, affections. And the timing works out very well with Oakenfist potentially finding out whilst visiting Aliandra at Sunspear on his way back from clouting the Ironborn. We know that Johanna Westerling-Lannister (fucking hell, another character from this time we need to know more about!) lent the Crown gold (laugh it was the 1/4 of Aegon II's treasury that Tyland sent to Casterly Rock) for rebuilding costs, I'm guessing it was most like just before Alyn left the west. Particularly also as thanks for all of his help, plus the Lannisters were able to recoup a great deal that Dalton's reavers had stolen. As @Lord Varys has theorised before, Alyn likely ransomed Viserys without orders from the Regents to do so, even though he may have actually been Aegon's heir at the time. And if Johanna did lend him gold, but Alyn picked up Viserys before returning to KL, then he also dipped greatly into his own wealth (whether bolstered with spoils taken from the Ironborn or not) to pay the enormous ransom. That could easily have sat poorly with his captains & sailors, but they continued to follow him, still at only ~18 years of age. We know that Aliandra showed "great favor" to Oakenfist, which likely involved at least a reduction of her encouragement of her men in raiding the Marches (& perhaps sexual attraction), but I think also some part (great or small) in Viserys' ransom. Especially as she was in-laws (not to mention Dorne military, political, & trade partners with the Triarchy previous) with the Rogares not too long before. (She may have even had child/ren with Drazenko, though the MUSH has that as otherwise. There really would be a great irony if the Targaryens - some of them anyway - were kin to the Martells before Daeron II & Mariah's sons. The Dorne-Triarchy & Aliandra-Drazenko relationships are ones I really want to know more about too). I think the Rogares & the Lyseni Spring are going to be central to the Targaryen dynasty, Alyn & Viserys in particular, from the Regent Wars all the way to Aegon IV's reign (& beyond). (I can expand on this if you like, but this specific post is already long enough. I do think Serenei was a Rogare descendant, though). A final point on Johanna - I think she was Viserys' primary educator on economics during his time hidden in Lys. A nice, but weird, parallel how he was the same for Elaena whilst she was in the Maidenvault.
  8. Friends in the Stormlands

    @Lord Varys Good points. Yeah, I've long wondered what the Stormlords wil be doing going forward, in particular those from the Marches. And that's a good addition with mentioning their prowess as archers (though very few Dothraki have dragonbone given it's rarity, as it's prized by them, however, Jorah does say they are better than Westerosi ones - presumably besides weirwood - so they likely get them from the Forest of Qohor or Ifequevron). Now, it may be that Aegon & JonCon will court the Marcher lords directly if some of their forces head west against the Ironborn (though I don't see this until Aegon claims King's Landing or Tarly defects to him before facing him in the field - then he could take his army to the Reach) or with envoys (I doubt it, more like it will just be ravens), but I think the primary motivator for them to join the (first) Targaryen campaign or not will be the Dornish. Surely, the Carons & Dondarrions at least. Doran has what, a host in both the Prince's Pass & the Boneway, of perhaps ~10000 men each. Easily powerful motivators to choose the side that they do, or if they actually raid/attack the Marches on the way through (would the Yronwoods, etc perhaps be bold enough to demand Marcher castles for their fealty?) to Aegon, to perhaps oppose them say when Dany arrives. I very much lean towards the former, though I certainly think the latter could be possible. (That said, the Dornish may not have been awarded any marcher castles Tyrion promised, certainly not any major ones). As @Scorpion92 proposes, Edric (along with perhaps a number of the Brotherhood who seem to have split from LSH's group with him) could perhaps be a factor here. A boy of only ~13, but the Lord of Starfall, Beric's squire, & perhaps guardian of his bones/ashes (I don't see them dragging a rotting corpse that far) until he can be set to rest at Blackhaven. On a different track to Scorpion92 however, that perhaps he is a factor for getting at least the Dondarrions to declare for Aegon. If Edric doesn't get Dankstar'd for Dawn (or survives, or simply goes to Blackhaven first), he may match Allyria (mayhaps she's even at Blackhaven instead of Sunspear) with some male Dondarrion to keep the alliance going (not only between the Houses, but to a degree on a greater level between Dornish & Marcher), or perhaps instead marry some female Dondarrion himself. We don't know if Beric had any heirs, close or distant, but I tend to think someone is at Blackhaven with a claim. Whatever the case, much (if not all) of Blackhaven's strength at home as it doesn't seem they declared for anyone during the Wot5K. How much do you think they can marshal? They & the Carons had ~4000 men & ~800 cavalry between them against the 206 Vulture King, but I tend to think that is towards the upper limit (indeed, they likely attracted a fair number of Ser Arlans, & there's all the wars the Stormlands have fought in since). Most like Blackhaven can field at least 1000 men currently, though I'm not sure I would say more than ~1500. Whatever the case, they presumably need a Dondarrion or trusted vassal of theirs still to lead them though. Despite them seemingly not being at the Blackwater, do you think House Dondarrion lost any lands afterwards? Presumably, some measure of the Nightsong strength marched (& died) with Lord Bryce. Despite Philip Foote being awarded Nightsong, it's not unlikely some of the lands were awarded to others post-Blackwater, perhaps particularly landed knights bordering the Reach. Did the surviving Caron men have to swear their service to Philip? Are they part of Randyll's army, which seems to contain most of the Stormlanders in the field for the Crown. Whatever the case, I'm very confident that Philip has not set foot in Nightsong yet. AFAWK, the Lannisters didn't take any hostages that could perhaps be used against the castellan or any of the garrison. Garlan took what, ~20000 men, to claim Brightwater - Philip may only have a few men in his service, likely fewer than 100, imo. The Lannisters haven't given him any forces to make good on his claim, neither have the Tyrells. Presumably, he's either been at court, or in Randyll's host, or with a Lannister one. I'm inclined to think that Bryce didn't have any immediate/named heir, especially with Rolland claiming his brother's seat (although serving a rival king certainly is part of that). If so though, I'm surprised the Freys have not (AFAWK) argued their own claim to Nightsong through Perra. Unlikely really (particularly given her age & own rather high place in the Frey succession - as per normal lordly inheritance anyway), but I wonder if perhaps there has been some ravens between the Lannisters & the Freys, for a match between Perra & Philip to consolidate the claims. I wonder what strength Nightsong has left? Bryce would've had some trusted man behind as castellan, especially as Rolland wasn't it. But how much influence would that guy have in marshaling remaining Caron forces among the domains? I think the forces of Nightsong may be somewhat negligible compared to what actually happens to the castle itself, with who ends up with it. According to the A World of Ice & Fire app, Harvest Hall is between Blackhaven & Ashford, which certainly makes sense being on the northern edges of the Marches - more apt for the wheat fields their sigil & castle name suggest. They declared for Renly & had some strength at Storm's End, likely also some foot at Bitterbridge. We're not sure who after His Deadshitness, but I lean towards neutrality (if they could, which is a stretch) or the Lannister-Tyrells, rather than Stannis. The Selmys are doing better than the Carons & Dondarrions in the currently ruling lord department, if not also outright succession. That kind of stability helps, as does their seat & lands not being so close to the border. That said, whether they are effectively neutral atm or with the "Baratheons", I think they would only add perhaps ~500 men to Aegon if they were to join or defect to him. Like Blackhaven, I think Stonehelm is most key among the Marcher seats currently. AFAWK, the Swanns have perhaps only lost a few (dozen) sworn swords with Balon &/or Donnel, with their father keeping them his knights & men-at-arms at home. Now, as noted up-thread several times, Lord Gulian hasn't been keen to commit forces to anybody, but also there's hints that the Swanns may switch (nominal) sides again. I doubt that will be under Lord Gulian, unless perhaps Donnel is able to convince him o/w. Though I think the elder son is more likely to be with Randyll's forces (or has been at court) than at Stonehelm, perhaps trying to prove his loyalty to his current king. If Dankstar, Obara, or Hotah kill Balon & his father hears of it, I don't imagine it will send him running to Aegon with the Dornish set to join him, & their forces being a threat since ACoK. Nevertheless, a Balon vs Donnel scenario would be very interesting, if very unlikely. And if Clifford isn't actually a name change for Gulian & has actually usirped to become Lord of Stonehelm, well then the Swanns very well may declare for Aegon & JonCon - particularly being the closest of the Marcher lords to the Golden Company forces atm. Despite seemingly heavy losses during Robert's Rebellion, the Swanns surely can field +1000 men atm, perhaps even as much as 2000.
  9. Errors in the WOIAF

    @Lord Varys Ran has said somewhere (that I don't have linked on my tablet, but do on my currently charger-less laptop), perhaps in the Inconsistencies thread, that basically Reach-attacking Qhored (i.e. "the Cruel") is a different one to the Justman-extinguishing Qhored, with the former as a driftwood king & the latter a hereditary king. Indeed, that there were multiple Qhored Hoares during both periods. On Hardhand's background, remember that: Slavers & pirates from the Stepstones were attacking the North, Riverlands, & Vale (perhaps also the Stormlands &/or Dorne) at least during the Worthless War. The Basilisk Isles have been ruled by corsair kings at least as far back as c.700BC when Nymeria & her Rhoynar were there. Indeed, the Freehold abandoned their last Sothoryos outpost (Zamettar) c.1700BC & perhaps also the Isles themselves then too. After all, they wouldn't need them for Zamettar anymore & they had other places like their own mines to send their criminals. The paragraphs before Harwyn is brought up in "The Black Brood", suggests that since at least the Famine Winter (geez I want a dating on this! c.500BC?) that the Ironborn engaged in the New Way with the Free Cities, the Old Way in the Basilisk Isles & Stepstones, & a Quellon-esque combination of the two as sellsails for them there. The Freehold, particularly the dragonlords themselves, have actually been quite insular for much of their history; only involving themselves when needed, instead preferring the comforts of & power in Valyria. The trade wars & reavers would've very, very rarely (at best) have actually threatened one of their Daughters - let alone any of the others closer to & directly controlled by Valyria - & if they did, then the attackers would get the Second Spice War or Scouring of Lorath treatment. And even then, Rhoynar then or during earlier wars migrated to & assimilated with the Valyrian colonists of Myr & (some of) the remaining Essosi Andals likewise with Pentos. Really, I think for the most part, the Freehold would've benefitted from all of these various conflicts - particularly with the slave trade.
  10. Funny little questions

    @Lord Varys Yeah, I'd lean towards it being the Peakes. I think Starpike is roughly halfway between Horn Hill & Nightsong, south-east of Highgarden. If so, then I think it makes the most sense for that kingdom to have been ruled from a central-located seat, with the number of larger (Hightower, Gardener) &/or belligerent (whatever Dornish) kingdoms around them. This theorises that Dunstonbury is located at/near the confluence of the Mander & the "Goldengrove river", which I could see being the case. Although it reduces the believability of the Manderlys escaping the Reach c.700BC - having to sail past the Gardeners themselves. Instead, I think the Manderly seat is either south-west of the Highgarden where the Mander bends, with their lands perhaps having extended as far as the river's mouth. It makes the escape more plausible, along with having more ocean-suitable ships to do so with, & is more apt with the name of House & river. Given the classic Westerosi neighbour-esque feud between Peakes & the Manderlys & easier control for the former for ~900 years, I think Whitegrove sits between Highgarden & Horn Hill with adjoining lands to Starpike & Dunstonbury. Attewell's positioning of Whitegrove, whatever that of Dunstonbury, doesn't make much sense to me. If Dunstonbury was at the confluence, then I could perhaps see Whitegrove east of Highgarden instead. Rather, I think the castle is named for a weirwood grove. It's likely that the Manderlys &/or Peakes held it prior to the Andal migration to the Reach, perhaps even founding it. They are both First Men-founded Houses, & "Whitegrove" suggests a pre-Andal raising anyway. Now, the Royces have the geographically distant Coldwaters & Tolletts as vassals, though I think that is a layover from Robar II (though perhaps also influenced by more recent events). It makes far more sense to me, given various historical events (Florys, Gwayne III's judgement, daughters of Garth X, Manderly exile), that Starpike & Dunstonbury - with Whitegrove in between - are on Highgarden's south doorstep. The Marches kingdom was absorbed into the Gardener realm some time before Garland II & likely Meryn III, perhaps under Garth V "Hammer of the Dornish" for just that. If the Peakes were the kings of this realm that bent the knee, they more likely than not would have lost the Tarlys, Carons, etc as vassals then. If so, our ambitious Peakes would've looked to increase their power again & perhaps that led to the fued with the Manderlys. (If the Marches kingdom was brought in before Gyles I (particularly if under Garth V), it could help to further explain his actions, in trying to conquer the last major bordering kingdom in "the Reach". Perhaps this is when the likes of the Florents &/or Blackbars, if they had once been Hightower vassals - which "headwaters of the Honeywine" suggests, ceased to be so with how far Gyles conquered). Most likely, the episode of the feud during G-Fat's time had to with fighting over Whitegrove, or at the very least the lands that would come to be sworn to it. That they had to do fealty to him, could perhaps even suggest one or both had broken away & become a petty kingdom. Later John "the Tall" at least was still getting (border) petty kings to bend the knee, after all. Though Yandel refers to Peake & Manderly as "Lords", so it make it unlikely, more so if Dunstonbury & Starpike are located close to Highgarden. (I wonder how Gwayne settled their dispute ... Given the general Gardener philosophy, especially if Garland II was not long before him, he most likely did so with marriage. Whether that was for both with his House, or between the those two feuding - perhaps forming a new one at Whitegrove of their blood.) I agree that it's safe to assume that the Tarlys weren't the Marches kings, although as @The Grey Wolf says, the Carons could still be a possibility (perhaps the Swanns held a rival Eastern Marches kingdom, including the now Dondarrion lands).
  11. (Obviously) Rhaenys Targaryen & her husband, the Sea Snake. Truly why would take an essay-length (or multiple) post for both. Simply though, she was the Queen Who Always Was (up there with Alyssa, Rhaena, Alysanne, & Elaena) & Corlys was her counterpart (up there with Jaehaerys & Viserys II).
  12. Certain Problems Regarding the Legacy of the Kingmaker

    @The Grey Wolf I'd say different historiography & personal predicaments: Particularly in his earlier years, Cole was quite the tourney champion & LC for near two decades - particularly appealing to Jaime. Not to mention, he "championed" Rhaenyra (i.e. Cersei) & then turned to Aegon (i.e. patriarchy, especially as Tywin's son) via Alicent (another Cersei parallel), but of course played the game of thrones (something Jaime disdains for KG in an active role - of course he has his own hypocrisy her with twincest, etc, but whatever) in doing so. Jaime's main source would be the White Book (favourable to Cole until the Dance at least) & snippets of partriachal based learning from his youth. Gyldayn & Yandel meanwhile scrutinised Cole & his relationships more, i.e. Cole was actually an utter turd, but Jaime sees him as more grey (perhaps also personally coloured by his own journey). He was still a massive player before & during the Dance, but Alicent overshadows him because she was perhaps the only competent Green commander. I disagree with Otto - Alicent also trumped him & the only thing he did of note during the Dance was recruit the Triarchy. Before he was right up there towards his daughter much of the time, but he was quickly cast aside & killed during the war because his power & competency had diminished. Meanwhile, Cole is particularly highlighted by Arianne, Arys, & Barristan given their specific parallels to him or those he challenged, thus portaying him as having been such a major figure. Again, those with a similar predicament for or against the patriarchal model of Westerosi succession are more likely to be for or against Cole by association of his "kingmaking", instead of his relationship with (grooming of Rhaenyra). Arianne doesn't think of him in terms of the latter, because her KG is on her side. Instead, she associates Cole with Anders Yronwood (Quent's foster father, & of perhaps Dorne's most patriarchal House). She also has the far more culturally & historically apt Nymeria, instead of Rhaenyra, to disassociate from the "romantic" side of Cole - therefore the Andal tradition of brother over sister with him instead. Also for Arys, he stayed with his princess instead, so as a KG is more like to be troubled by his "game of thrones" aspect with Cole. Barristan of course only has an aspect applicable of disdain for KG playing politics - something he is thrust into by situation (& being manipulated by Skahaz). He was a steward's son (only for the Dondarrions, so not even on the level of the Pooles & certainly not the pre-Conquest Tyrells), so despite his natural (& developed) martial prowess, he didn't have the development into an actually skilled battle commander like say Daemon (royal learning privilege, dragonrider, plus experience). He was also blinded by his arrogance & hate for Rhaenyra & the Blacks - like how Tywin is controlled by his emotions & is rather average commander. Rook's Rest was a stupid plan that got lucky more dragons didn't come (it'd be very easy for a raven to have been sent to Daemon to help at the very least), whilst denuding KL of defenses (dragons, projectiles, & men) as Cole & Aemond would again later. Even still consolidating, the Blacks had the power to crush the Greens at Rook's Rest or take the capital earlier instead - even if they had of known about Rhaenyra being crushed by Luke's murder, it was a massive gamble. One that didn't pay off for them with ~1000 potential KL defenders killed (the gold cloaks would've had a harder time later if they were still around) & Aegon & Sunfyre almost killed. But yeah, it's just one of the Green commanders problems with what we know about the Dance, nevertheless. @Curled Finger Interesting, I argue the opposite for Jaime in point 1 - he has less information than the historians, not to mention his own life colouring his perception.
  13. Ranking the Targaryen kings from best to worst

    I find it hard to differentiate a distinctly quantifiable ranking between many of them, so in general terms: Best = Viserys II, Jaehaerys I Good = Aegon I, Daeron II, Maekar I Satisfactory = Aegon III, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II Poor (i.e. really bad) = Viserys I, Daeron I, Baelor I Shithouse (i.e. really, really bad) = Aegon II, Aenys I, Aerys I Worst (i.e. really, really, really bad) = Maegor I, Aegon IV, Aerys II. The Satisfactory kings are rather close to the Good ones, which in turn are also to the Best. Then a large gulf down to Poor, which is also quite close to Shithouse & Worst though. Female rulers, regents, political players, &/or consorts: Best = Alyssa, Rhaena, Alysanne, Rhaenys (the Queen Who ALWAYS Was), Elaena Good = Visenya, Rhaenys, Maegelle, Alicent Hightower, Laena, Jeyne Arryn, Baela & Rhaena, Naerys, Melissa Blackwood, Bellegere Otherys, Mariah Martell, Daenerys, Betha Blackwood, Rhaella, Elia Martell. Satisfactory = Alyssa's Targaryen mother, Ceryse Hightower, Alys Harroway, Aerea & Rhalla, Jocelyn Baratheon, Alyssa (sister-wife of Baelon), Aemma Arryn, Helaena, Larra Rogare, Daenaera Velaryon, Daena, Rhaena, Serenei of Lys, Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose, Dyanna Dayne, Kiera of Tyrosh, Aelora, Daenora, Shaera. Poor = Tyanna of Pentos, Falena Stokeworth, Barba Bracken. Worst = Rhaenyra. Again, there's not much difference between Best & Good. The Satisfactory women of royal power are ones that we don't know enough about yet &/or they had mixed results. Although I think Aegon (just) had the better theoretical claim (bloody hell, Jaehaerys!), I back Rhaenyra's instead (after the true Queen Regnant, Rhaenys, that is of course). That said, Rhaenya was almost as horrid as Aegon & Aemond, & was as incompetent. (Meanwhile Daemon was an utter monster, but generally competent). She was a terrible ruler & squandered so much of her potential & advantages. @Emie Good list, though I think Viserys I & Daeron I are far too high & Aerys I to a lesser extent. If I may, why did you rank them so? @Adam Yozza Same as Emie, plus the Unworthy? @Jon's Queen Consort Again, the same as Emie. Also, why the Conqueror & the Concialiator so low though?
  14. The ASOIAF wiki thread

    @Rhaenys_Targaryen I understand all that, I'm including the info from the extended chapter (vassals augmenting the Lannister force with their own levies before the camp battle with the Reynes) & frankly over TWoIaF published if need be. It's not as biased (I know different section, but it's still Pycelle & Yandel), it fills in missing details (because of course Tywin would be so nice to Rohanne & Cerelle), & even with Tywin's rapid momentum campaign; the four Houses mentioned in TWoIaF wouldn't be the only vassals to respond to Tywin's call. The Westerlings would've been declining before this (indeed, some of the lands & mines they've sold are more likely than not to have been to the Reynes) & were never a top-tier military power (Lannister, Reyne, Crakehall, etc) in the Westerlands anyway. The Stackspears are even more forgettable, not only in the same department. And the Plumms & Baneforts are roughly middle of the pack. There's just no way they are bringing ~7000 men between them, to boost Tywin's then ~6000 to ~13000. Particularly not in 261 & on such a short time-frame. Even in 298 (after almost a decade of summer & peace) with all the extra weeks to gather their men, that would really be a push, if not just outright wrong. Alone, TWoIaF could possibly make ~6500 original & ~13000 final work, but no way with the extended chapter too. Not to mention everything else I addressed with logistics & that the text points far more to ~3000 combined than ~3000 each. It fits far better for it to be ~3500 initial, boosted to ~6000 by the time of the camp battle with levies from 14 Houses (12 of them unnamed lesser lords - Houses that probably can't even martial 500 men each in the very best of conditions, most like only clocking in ~200 or something on average), & finishing at ~7000 at Castamere. Tywin had just about the opposite & ideal circumstances in AGoT in contrast (indeed, his hiring of foreign sellsword companies, likely means he was planning to some degree even before Cat took Tyrion) & yet the Lannisters only field what, 35-40k in invasion forces. The Reyne-Tarbeck revolt only drew active strength from ~1/4 of the Westerlands, with some ~2750 men from the same quadrant in opposition. Casterly Rock & Lannisport certainly help a great deal, but ~13000 men at that time & in that time, just doesn't work. Multiply that by three (perhaps sufficient for factoring in Casterly Rock) & you have the host in ASoIaF - ~39000 men in less than a 1/4 (if not 1/6, perhaps even 1/8) of the time. ~7000 expanding to ~21000 instead, New Ghis fielding a ~36000 men invasion force is far more ridiculous than even the Lannister numbers! What mega fleet abandoned the city for weeks to deliver ~12000 men north of the river? If the Yunkai-led alliance had these numbers from New Ghis, the latter would be in charge, & a storming of Meereen would even be a genuine possibility. ~36000 is more than what the North or Stormlands can marshal & field, from lands possibly as large as half of that of Skagos, because Ghiscar is rekt. That makes sense.
  15. Is the Tarly-Mooton marriage a foolish one?

    Good points, particularly with Eleanor as a potential hostage. Maidenpool could still pass to a younger son or daughter of her & Dickon eventually, though. And Randyll & Melissa, still have three daughters besides, with Talla at least of a marriageable age. A younger child of Dickon & Eleanor could be married to a female Tarly-line cousin to consolidate a claim even more. And even with patriarchal & misogynistic as fuck Randyll, isn't by no means impossible for Talla or one of her sisters to not only inherit Horn Hill, but still keep it under the Tarly name (Lady Oakheart, Lady Waynwood, Lady Mormont, Lady Stokeworth, Lady Whent - there's the possibility that there are Tarly cousins we don't know about yet, etc). Indeed, unless they get back to the Reach (& even then, Euron's fuckery to come), Randyll & Dickon don't have the highest chances of living past the end of the series.