Aemon Targaryen

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  1. Fire and Ice Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. - Robert Frost I was reading Schmendrick's awesome thread "R + L = Lightbringer" (thanks altshiftx). Schmendrick on p.3 notes "George has acknowledged that the Robert Frost poem Fire and Ice is one of his inspirations for ASoIaF." The WW's motivation seems to ultimately be that they curse the fact that they were born/created and so hate life. This is perhaps simplistic, but for mine it is the only inotion that makes sense. (Obviously, there are speculations as to where they come from and whether they were created by; these speculations are consistent with the notion of hatred either of one's creator or one's existence; Milton's Satan's "I myself am hell"; Tyrell and the replicants in Blade Runner). The poem analogises fire and ice with desire and hate. Desire links to the Targaryens, Red God, AA/NN/LB; and perhaps also love and rebirth. Hate links to the WW and the notion of a more absolute destruction or annihilation, a total death without resurrection or rebirth, a great nothing, a void. Like the world perishing twice in the poem, WW and wights seem to have perished twice". I would appreciate the cliffnotes version of any theories on the WW's ultimate motivations. As far as I know, there is no dominant or consensus theory - and as far as I know there is not enough evidence in the books for one besides something simplistic like the above.
  2. I think you are right (and that was also how it was put in the show). Which means Tyrion's comment to Cersei in S7Ep7 that "I love my family" may have also been significant. My issue is I don't really see Tyrion's motivations or the nature of that betrayal. 1. Tyrion has doubts about Daenerys but she hasn't done anything really bad yet, still hasn't burnt down KL and has every chance of being further 'moderated' by Jon and Tyrion. 2. Tyrion knows Cersei is the most evil woman alive and said as much in the same episode. That leaves the issue of Dany's heir. Given D&D, we should look to the obvious. Tyrion, conscious of what would happen if Dany dies, decides to cut a deal with Cersei that if Dany dies in the war against the dead, then Tyrion would support Cersei's child as true ruler of Westeros. But why would Tyrion be stupid enough to believe this? (Although why was Tyrion stupid enough to conceive of and implement the wight hunt and treating with Cersei in the first place? And why does show Tyrion apparently believe Cersei's change of heart in the show?) But, even if he was that stupid to promise Cersei something (for nothing), why would he stick to that promise if circumstances changed and Dany became pregnant? Also, he knows Jon would make a much better ruler of Westeros anyhow if Daenerys died, and he is still friendly with Jon and helped him throughout the season. That would only make sense if Cersei had some massive hold over Tyrion, something he really wanted (a Shae) ... but I can't think there is anything like that? As far as Jorah, his character arc is done and he will never betray her. As far as Jon, Jon would simply never betray her unless, perhaps, they unintentionally become enemies after the aunt-nephew reveal or, perhaps, some silly 'Jon must kill her to save the world' thing happens. But it wouldn't be a true betrayal and would be unlikely. So it just doesn't make any sense. Though I can't see how a Tyrion betrayal would really work, it may make an interesting way for the AJT thing to come out .... and would be GRRM ironic symmetry (TM) - i.e. all of Cersei's accusations about Tyrion betraying his family would become true, except that it would be by betraying Jon and Dany?
  3. I want to believe too. But on what evidence? In all of the criticism of the show, ppl are forgetting that the books got steadily worse (subjective, yes, but the view is commonly held and I think it's right). The s8 leaks have made me think on jettisoning asoiaf entirely from my life, because it is not only a question of will he ever finish before he dies, but also will he finish in an even half decent way? Call me a cynic, but the probabilities seem something like this to me: 60% - series never finished in book form, all we have is show ending which is likely some version of s8 leaks (because ADOS never finished in even draft form, even if TWOW is published) 35% - series finished in book form, but weak like the last two novels and unsatisfying a la s8 leaks 5% - series finished in book form, masterful, taut like AGOT, satisfying character and plot resolutions It might just be time to call it and not waste any more of my life thinking about asoiaf.
  4. Do. Not. Say. That. (Actually, I think likewise ... the inconsistencies in the leaks were due to it being a draft ... it was a logical extrapolation from season 7 plotlines and of the same quality - not utterly awful, but far from inspiring or GRRM level. My main disappointment/despairing suspicion is that it is in fact GRRM's ending, albeit without a lot of the complications due to the cuts to the recent novels in the show ... that is, GRRM never had a good ending, or lost his good ending as the books kept growing. That is, given the disappointment of the last two novels, I don't think there's any reason to think GRRM has a better ending in store. And that is truly depressing.)
  5. That would make sense if Drogon and Rhaegal also died vs. NK (i.e. extension of logic that Viserion's death may break curse).
  6. Doesn't the prophecy say Daenerys is to be betrayed a final time by someone who loves her? That would now include Jon, Jorah and Tyrion, with Tyrion the most likely candidate surely given (a) the look during boatsex and (b) the unexplained offscreen resolution of the conversation between Cersei and Tyrion? I would say at this point Dany's death is (even) more certain than Jon's. The underlying theme of Season 7 seemed to be "she is too good for this world and will break herself in trying to break the wheel", whereas Jon is the terminator and just keeps surviving.
  7. Amen.
  8. But if GRRM never knew exactly how the story ended, then there are all sorts of possibilities, but mainly: 1. GRRM was 100% truthful and open in telling D&D the ending, as best he knew it at the time. 2. (Consistent with 1) GRRM changed his mind in big ways and small ways in actually writing the books. 3. (Also consistent with 1) GRRM changed his mind to intentionally diverge from the show. 4. GRRM was never 100% open or truthful about the ending. In other words: the show HAS changed the books .... if the show didn't exist, GRRM might have been much more straightforward but is now going to add even more twists than he otherwise would have. In light of that, the only sure things are who dies and who survives of the main characters.
  9. ... and that GRRM will largely follow them.
  10. The worst thing is that if the Season 8 leaks are real they must significantly reflect GRRM'S intentions for the ultimate ending. Which makes me feel nauseous and murderously angry in equal parts. I only read the "Season 8 potential leaks" yesterday, after watching the finale ...They made a lot of sense to me re: the show and even the books. It's true the Season 7 script leak ages ago means that how the "Season 8 potential leaks" fits with Season 7 isn't determinative, because Season 7 was already out there .... But the ending and the writing just seems too detailed and D&D-ish to be discounted. tl;dr -- I am extremely disturbed that the Season 8 leaks are real, and
  11. sum total of season is absolutely nothing new was learnt so this makes the finale a 2/10 for me
  12. So if Jon hadn't gone South to convince Dany about the threat ... And minus the stupid plan of a wight hunt --- which the show itself has proved was futile as Cersei would use it --- The NK would have just been stuck in shuffle mode North of the Wall?!?
  13. Hope GRRM has a better way to get NK past the Wall than a "jump the wight" moment