Cowboy Dan

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  1. You admitted you weren't going to read the thread so I'll just let ya know I made the concession earlier. Alas I am unable to edit the thread's title and feel most users are smart enough to understand what I was getting at so it's a rather pointless edit this far along. Besides, I tend to not get hung up on such specifics. If I get to the core of what I'm trying to convey I find that such distinctions can be easily remedied later -- allowing both members of the conversation are willing to respectfully argue (and when appropriate, agree to disagree, or even *gasp* concede) their points. Which I see is not always the case, even on this forum. Good to know my initial assessment wasn't far off the mark. I have no intention of getting dragged down. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to steer clear and keep our riggings from getting tangled again, in case of another sinking. I feel this thread has devolved into arguing for the sake of arguing so I certainly won't blame you for not participating. Perhaps I'll try to right the topic again once I get some more time but that time certainly isn't now.
  2. Haha I've been there, it's a big reason why I try not to over-use this type of analysis but to find linked conflicts/events (like how Ned's wisdom links the blood drinking tree and a bolting horse, four books apart). Although I tend to stick to words that have 50-65 hits or less (and 5-25 is far more preferable), bolt is at ~100 and that gets too out of hand to read all the time (melt is at 168). I fully expect skepticism and, even from more symbolically-minded posters, the disbelieving side-eye. To be fair in hundreds (and hundreds) of searches I've identified maybe 2-3 dozen words/phrases linked in obvious ways. If you're familiar with Meyers-Briggs typology the INTP (logician) archetype is what I am and pretty sure what GRRM is. TFL's sig quote about how if GRRM knows exactly how the story will end then it makes him lose interest? That's classic INTP behavior. Primarily introverted thinkers with a bent for complex systems, but once the system is understood, the type gets bored in the tedium of application. I see this system at work and when I show it like this I expect some people just see white noise. At least it's coming off as interesting! I'm glad that, at the very least, I can liven up the boredom of our long wait. Perhaps in certain eyes I'm some drunk fool hopping around but if you find my dancing amusing then I consider my goal accomplished
  3. Well there's an invitation I won't refuse! I can't say I have a whole lot to say (of course this comment wound up being so very wrong) but re-reading this chapter is very interesting. Like wow, I can't believe how much is going on that I missed even in my second reading. Just.. holy crap! I finally nailed a couple ideas I've had knocking around but couldn't find direct examples for. So thanks for starting this thread and thanks @Unchained for tagging me, I wouldn't have made these connections for a long time to come otherwise. I've discussed before over in Heresy how I see the fractal symbolism going on and that kind of pastiched mash-up of overlapping conflicts between chapters influences my analysis. Due to this it's hard to really get into why I see things the way I do without going on a serious digression and showing a bunch of tangential chapter's analyses. That and the fact every time I feel like I have an understanding on the thing it seems to shift and change before my (mind's) eyes. It's like I'm walking up a stair and once I travel enough steps I can see where it's going. I reach the top platform where there are two more stairs, left and right, one up, one down and in front of me is nothing but air. But if I step forward I'll find in some weird Escher-esque way I am upside down on the same platform and I can descend the way I just came but I appear to be ascending all over again, walking forward now in the direction that was just behind. Oh and the two stairs to my right and left are replaced in its inverted state. One is now a dead end and the other leads to some darkened hall I've yet to illuminate. So right when I feel I've started to really get a hold on how this stuff connects I realize the bedrock I thought was below me was nothing more than shifting sands. It's both endlessly fascinating and frustrating. Similar to how RR honed in on Bran when he 'reaches' for Meera I want to hone in on how Meera 'bolted' from the fire. Which ties into LmL's whole fire of the gods and lightning/thunderbolt motifs which he likes to illuminate. Before I go into that though I want to backtrack a little in the chapter to BR's exposition on skinchanging for some quick set up. Interestingly "wild stallion" is only used once in the text otherwise, which is Daenerys eating the horse heart back in AGOT. This mimics BR's statement that 'the trees remember but men forget' (paraphrasing). Just as the maesters mock the old knowledge of raven speech through written messages, the Dothraki crone (one-eyed as BR is) administers the same blood rite BR does to Bran but in a half-forgotten manner. The symbols are there but not the specific truths that men have forgotten. Think about it: she is wedded by eating a bloody heart, then when the khal dies the khaleesi is meant to return to the Dosh Khaleen just as the greenseers 'go into the wood' after they die, which is being 'wedded to the (heart) trees' by eating a bloody paste. A tree could be seen as a horned lord symbol, its antlers reaching into the sky but (in an inverted manner I'm sure @Feather Crystal will enjoy), its roots are likewise antlers that reach unseen into the earth. Another forgotten truth for the Dothraki in their horse worship: horses simply have hooves that trod over the ground and fail to pierce the earth its self as weirwood and ebony trees do. The branches that reach into the sky produce leaves, giving off their gift to others, while the branches below suck the nutrients from the soil. Kind of like inverted lightbringer swords, eh, @LmL, one drinking light, while the other produces it? Okay, that thought got away from me. It happens. So back to the bolting. In this scene, if we're building on the assumption that Bran is in fact attempting to skinchange Meera, Meera is acting as an unbridled horse herself. Bran and Meera begin their chat by ruminating on Jojen's depressive acceptance of his fate. Let's go all the way back to those first pages of the series in which Ned imparts this wonderful wisdom and we get the first use of 'bolt', shall we? Not only is a bridled horse wanting to bolt but it is restrained, just as I mentioned Meera (in her unbridled state), has free rein of her actions and Bran thus fails to restrain her. The blood is being drunk as wine and if Euron is the counterpart to Bran, who drinks Shade of the Evening, which is a nice blue wine (de-oxygenated blood?). The next few uses of bolt are also interesting in light of the point that she was running to prevent from being seen crying. Both actually make perfect sense. Interestingly Jon is drunk and "half-blind", just as Euron and Bran must be to unlock their powers, drunk on (blood) wine, they must close the lower half of their eyes to see with the upper eye. This is a great example of how GRRM obfuscates meaning -- as I see it. If you can find the ley lines you can then recognize the second meaning is there all the same, hidden among the paralleled events, nestled in the same cluster of symbolism. Its absence often serves to tell part of the story but you first need to find those ley lines and see the similar patternings as they crop up to recognize that an absence in the scene is even occurring. Which is no easy task and why my own research has been so slow going, due to that constant Escher-esque re-assessment I mentioned. Of course GRRM's talent at hiding his intent with key words/phrases makes following such trails a tricky business. (To wit: Remember that whole business about the Baratheon brothers being different metals and how Robert is the "true steel"? Kind of nails Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer hypothesis that lightbringer can be a person and not just a sword. Despite 7 uses in AGOT that phrase gets completely -- and very suspiciously -- dropped. I'm guessing GRRM felt it was a little too on the nose, even though true names and true faces stick around.) Looking around there's a few times I see bolts or lightning described along with "clawing" (the very first use of claw actually describes Bran's hands in his coma state). That's essentially what Bran would do if he were to 'pull himself along the ground with his hands,' in order to physically touch Meera, he must claw at the ground, but she bolts away first. I don't want to overdo this because I could follow these lines for a while and there's a couple other key phrases that hook in to some places I'm finding very fascinating. Although explaining why that is would require a lot more explanation and I don't want to derail this thread with my tangential musings. Hope you enjoyed reading my thoughts, @Curled Finger, it wound up being a bit more than originally intended, haha.
  4. Wonderful to hear there are receptive minds! Although to be fair I never intended to imply it was all that commonplace. Despite my moments of eloquence I can be rather inarticulate in getting my point across. It's mainly that I see it most obviously with Sam's chapters and that it can open up some interesting avenues that I haven't seen discussed by the fandom at large. I just wanted to expand the discussion on where these possibilities may be influencing arcs. That the possibility is being touched on by others tells me I had a good notion in the first place. Of course! I do have an idea why that may be important but it's a bit out there and without some stronger support it's just an idea for now. I accept that I too may be wrong and am simply looking too far into our only combat with an Other. These over-analyses are prone to happen when we get years between books.. I've really enjoyed what I've seen of the discussion going on in here but my time has been short of late. Hopefully I'll be able to set aside some time soon.
  5. Ah, dangit! *shrug* Sometimes when ya shoot from the hip you miss the mark. What makes you say they wouldn't be secret also? Just piques my curiosity why the Nightfort would be so special. It's 3000 miles, seems weird to have only one secret entrance along that entire stretch. I suppose it could be an oversight by GRRM though, he does tend to overestimate distances. That makes a lot of sense and serves to tie it to Winterfell too. I like it! Reminds me of the (Free) Folk Tales regarding Gendel and Gorne leading their wildling host through tunnels under the Wall. It could explain why the Watch was lying in wait at the exit: the free folk were using the tricksy crows' underground tunnels.
  6. Holy hell! So first off, Dunk was the savior at the incident of Summerhall. At the Tourney of Ashford Meadow he sees the green shooting star which is what he emblazons on his shield. Of coure the events at Ashford Meadow lead Dunk to wonder if his foot is worth a prince's life and ultimately leads him to serve in the KG due to that guilt. You posited in your wheel of time thread that Summerhall was the original beginning of the breaking of the cycle that is occurring. Which is all catalyzed by Dunk seeing that green falling star at Ashford Meadow and the events that followed.
  7. I recall that all the other castles along the Wall had their underground tunnels stopped up with stone and water. A thought I naturally sprang to is that perhaps there is a weirwood beneath each castle within all that elemental blockage. The wall would then be both a sword as you mentioned, designed to bar entry, along with being a part of the magic tree network.
  8. The wind is simply symbolic. Although it does serve to remove the fog/dirt cloud that gets kicked up by the falling moon meteors which I think is super important for reasons I won't get into here. It's all simply another one of those clusters I enjoy finding. We're talking about a wind blowing a cloud or clouds from in front of the sun and killing said dark solar king by the hand of a brother? I mentioned Qhorin Halfhand before as a solid analogue in your own thread, @LmL but I think that instance is linked inversely to the Tourney at Ashford Meadow, since one is intentional and the other accidental. One involving metaphorical brothers, the other literal. Notice how Dunk blacks out, that's a key indicator that something's up and GRRM is obfuscating the next step in the chain. Likewise, Maekar never remembers striking the blow that felled his brother. Suspicious stuff! I also recall a scene in which someone also uses that "up, up!" remark when his horse starts to fall (I think Tyrion at Blackwater but that may be wrong) and the horse does in fact get up, much to his surprise. Is the fallen solar king a horned lord symbol or attached to the same symbolism?
  9. Sorry. The correct quote was "I disagree with your premise." Which once again, we're at an impasse since you refuse to entertain an idea outside the world view you're espousing. I've been in the position you're at before so maybe it's some form of karmic retribution for pulling other's strings and pushing buttons in the past. Like how you've already made me out to be the bad guy before I even respond because I'm 'like so many others and need to respond.' It's a pretty standard troll tactic, you're being rather obvious. I'm not half as upset as you're making me out to be, I'm being rather dispassionate. If I was really upset my response would be markedly different. And you have been very rude, not simply disagreeing. I just don't care enough to quote you on how many informal logical fallacies and thinly veiled antagonistic remarks you've wrote that you'll inevitably dance around anyways. You're continuing to exhibit the same dishonest argumentative tactics and failing to engage with the core of what I'm saying or making a sincere effort to do so. I also never said you shouldn't respond, I simply asked you not to since you have made your point and it seems at this point your only intention is to inflame. I am no dictator but I do not have to give you my time. There's hundreds of millions of people (if not billions) looking to tear down and anger others, I feel no need to give in to one more. Good luck in your future 'arguments'.
  10. Haha yeah, I've talked about clustered symbolism before and one of my favorites is the stars-gods-candles connection which is really blatant in Arya's chapters at the HoBaW. So when she stole those candles it sent off some alarms, then when I hopped in your thread someone mentioned that Promethean fire stealing and I was like "duh, that's the answer, she's stealing god-fire." That chapter and the one before, where she overhears Varys/Illyrio were like the Qhorin one I mentioned: I can't explicitly point to A,B, and C as to why it matches with your MA stuff, it was just kind of scratching the back of my brain like one of those hinges. The one-eared tom is very interesting for sure, no way that's not having some deeper symbolism going on. When I get some time I'll hop over to your thread and we'll chat some more about this stuff. And the thread isn't that in-depth, just an idea I mentioned in Heresy and wanted to expand to get some discussion going and hopefully some more evidence, since it's a smaller part of a bigger idea I've been working towards. But any effort of help you could offer would be much appreciated!
  11. No worries at all FC! You weren't the one getting us off topic and as I said, I don't mind. Besides, that would make me a tad.. hypocritical, don't you think? Thanks for the consideration though! I want to respond to some of the ideas that I read here but I'll have to find the time to go back through and recap what you and RR were getting at to be sure I didn't mix something up in my head. I know LynnS also wanted me to participate in the Wall discussion going on and I see they're already at page 5 so I need to go sink some time into that too. Due to security at the new job I can't have my phone on me so it's harder to keep up with everything that gets posted. Of course there's also those pesky real life obligations, so it's a busy weekend!
  12. I will ask you again not to tell me what someone's intentions (especially mine) are since you are not in their (or my) headspace. You've made that abundantly clear and when challenged doubled down on your position. I don't think you need to keep playing the broken record act, we get that you don't agree. If you think everything about an author's intentions is to be gleaned from the title why are you on a forum discussing the text of a massive series? "A Song of Ice and Fire" -- by that logic now we know everything to be gleaned from Martin's intentions. I agree wholeheartedly. Dorian, you're consistently mistaking the surface of mine and other's comments/arguments for the core. You are applying an overly literal standard of proof to an idea that does not have a literal, direct example. If it did I wouldn't have to argue for the idea since it would have already been discussed and this would be a pointless exercise in self-gratification. To quote your own rude response back at you and tailor it to your behavior: "The standard reply of those who are unable to [take responsibility for their hostility]. good luck with that." Also the idea is not contradicted in the text. You are making the classic mistake of taking "absence of evidence as evidence of absence". But in the op I actually showed an example where this is possible and you simply say "the text doesn't support it". Beneath the veneer of polite argumentation you've been dismissive, combative, and frankly, rude as hell. You've repeatedly ignored key parts of premises, moved goalposts and burned strawmen. I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt because you're clearly an intelligent fellow but the amount of dishonest argumentation you've exhibited makes me question if I should. I said be nice so we can have nice things and you have repeatedly antagonized posters in this thread. We've heard your issues with the theory and we are at an impasse since you are applying a rigor that is not congruous with the arguments presented (and it is your personal opinion to hold that rigor, not an absolute necessity as you would dogmatically have others here believe). Further responses can only serve in an attempt to inflame others. If more posters join in and you want to convince them of your stance, feel free. To quote Aristotle, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." If you have no desire to entertain the idea as even remotely possible then I will ask you to stop arguing (because at this point your arguments are repeating and you've not made headway in convincing those you're arguing with) and leave us to our 'fan fic' as you so lovingly refer to it.
  13. Double post. Internet is being wonky. *shrug* May as well use this since it's here. I do love the books for their grey morality and nuanced take on the human condition in a fantasy setting! Although I think I'll call it 'subtle skinchanging', it's got a nice alliteration to it.
  14. Quick aside: @LmL In the chapter I quoted in the op Arya kills the boy in the stable, thus drenching Needle red and goes into the sept, stealing two candles from the Seven. She is literally stealing fire from the gods, wields a bloody sword and escapes underground! Thought you might find that chapter interesting if you haven't noted it already.
  15. All excellent points. The flocks of ravens sprang to mind too but it seems they slipped out of my mind in my haste to get out the door yesterday. Thanks for the additional examples! I'm on the same page regarding BR being stronger than Varamayr. That's saying something considering how arrogant and vain Varamyr is regarding the strength of his own skinchanging skills. Like I said, who knows where the roof on this thing is!