Tianzi

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  1. Loras wasn't a POV either, though obviously he had the advantage of being alive longer. And for Renly we could only count on (higly unlikely) somebody else reminiscing his actions that would shed more light on his feelings. Ditto for Joanna. Cersei is voicing her opinions, but Arya is just observing facts about the Mountain's men. And yes, the author's views matter because he is the one writing his characters as straight or gay or anything else and make their actions based or not on their orientations. We just interpret. So, in Martinland in general rapists seem to have target base related to their sexual orientations and, if avaiable, attractiveness. Btw, I didn't call Euron gay.
  2. It's Loras' side, we don't know Renly's. (and that's part of why I consider Loras more sympathetic than Renly) Can I get a source to this science fact? Also not sure about Martin's outlook to that, and we're discussing Martin books here. We have little things like Cersei claiming that a pretty girl like Shae would have a 'busy night' when the Red Keep falls and the Mountain's men tended to line up for 'one girl, prettier than the others'. A girl beautiful like Sansa attracts all sorts of creeps. So, sexual attractiveness preference. Of course, Lollys or Brienne also aren't safe, but to think of it, the Bloody Mummers for one were more interested in raping Brienne than Jaime (and it has nothing to do with him being a Lannister, since the Goat wanted to 'ruin' him). So, gender preference. Seems to be more correlation than with hair colour. Agree about Lady Nym. Also Renly, who contrary to his TV counterpart is just a greedy asshole who doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities.
  3. They (Lyn and Septon Utt) still prefer boys over girls, that's why they're on the list. No argument that they're predators and deviants, but sexual violence acts they engage in happen to be homosexual as well. Euron is 'anything that moves' kind of rapist. All of them illustrate the point that Martin DOES NOT engage in any kind of 'positive discrimination here', there are good people and monsters there regardless of which way they swing.
  4. Well, JonCon aged and remained gay for Rhaegar, so it's safe to say that his gayness wasn't related to his youth and coolness, lol. Name one lesbian player. OK, Taena maybe. And the answer is: because sexuality of characters in the background is less explored? And their gay activities would be obviously less known facts than marriages/visiting brothels.
  5. And characters like Renly, not to mention Lyn Corbray, are rather negative. Loras is a badass and have some redemptive qualities (like genuine love for Renly, loyalty to his family and honesty of feelings), but amounts to an arrogant prick. Oberyn is everyone's bae, but it's not even confirmed he's really bisexual. It's only confirmed Ellaria is, and she's definitely a positive example, but she doesn't wave any weapon, so I suppose she doesn't count as "cool". As for other characters who may be straight, but go far in doing "gay things" onscreen than any of the aforementioned: Dany, who is at least debatable, Taena Merryweather and frigging Cersei. Oh, and let's not forget Euron the likely brother-molester. And wasn't one of the Bloody Mummers a homo pedophile (like Lyn Corbray) either? Seriously, disproportionately positive portrayal of gay characters suggesting that the author is immensely pro-gay? Seriously?
  6. OMG, LGBT characters having personalities and/or being successful, how shocking. First, the only decidedly cool character here is Oberyn Martell (I don't know about the Targaryen boy, didn't read prequels), who is Dornish and as such is just free-er to express whatever sexual desires he has. And it's not even confirmed he's bisexual. You're confusing books with show. The second coolest would be probably Renly, who has also a bit of Robert-like macho-obnoxiousness in him, but I'm surprised Loras isn't here. One of the greatest warriors in the Seven Kingdoms, anyone? Lyn Corbray is a deviant, Connington is a strict, humourless, dutiful dude, who doesn't even stand out with those traits, because the series has characters like Tywin or Stannis. I guess that if there was a truly macho character, like Victarion, who would happen to be gay and consequently have a big chip on his shoulder because of this, it would be interesting to explore. But we don't have a theme like that. Seven Kingdoms is just a place where is better to be a badass, no matter if you're gay or straight. Or are you just complaining that some characters you like happen to be of sexual orientation you don't like?
  7. The Most Intelligent Pre-Teen?

    Isn't Wylla Manderly older than Sansa? My vote goes for Missandei, bc her language abilities seem to be superhuman, but ...this.
  8. And given that Robert was basically a rapist... the only thing that kept that scene to be possible to stomach for me is that Taena was either into Cersei, or at least had a prostitute-professional outlook to it.
  9. "Moral ambiguity" is overrated and overestimated

    If ethical standards should be beneficial to life in general then boy, isn't the humankind a big cancer on the Earth's face. But still those standards are formulated by us, ie. a species that needs other life/natural survival to its own survival, so that's why we respect life in general. The Others are constructed in a seemingly different way, so our ethics has probably no use from their point of view. They have different goals from us (and all the other species that well, don't want to be frozen to death), it's in their nature. Um... if it's amorality, ergo lack of morality, then what is ambigous about that?
  10. "Moral ambiguity" is overrated and overestimated

    And what is the notion of good and evil here? Based on what's beneficial to humans? The idea of applying human standards of morality to some other race is absurd in itself, and hey, if so, the Others apparently just want to conquer and set the rules most beneficial to them. Is that this much worse than us? Tywin is an asshole who almost always does more than is necessary to maintain his family legacy, isn't above some petty revenge and actually treats his family like shit too. Having explanations makes the characters more human, and so does being forced to choose between the 'good' and the 'evil', along with situations where it's debatable what 'good' or 'evil' are, or where they are different from ~medieval point of view than they would be from ours. Also there are situations when acting 'good' is just plain dumb and may bring much worse consequences than acting 'evil'. Exploring those topics is what makes ASOIAF so interesting, so I'd say, no, moral ambiguity is not overrated. Though of course fans will eagerly use this phrase when they want to excuse their favourite from doing something repulsive Also, I don't think anybody would say that Gregor Clegane is not evil. He is, there is no doubt to it, and that's why we don't discuss his character.
  11. Most cowardly deed in ASOIAF.

    To me it's not this fact in itself that's cowardly (it only makes him a horrible person), but the implication that since 'he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children' he'd be afraid to walk the walk himself and gladly hid behind Tywin's villainy.
  12. In this thread I want to discuss which actions committed by various characters - mostly evil or at least questionable - really needed to be done. By that I mean: 'needed to be done' from the character's point of view, their cause and situation; no 'it was so inhuman s/he'd better died!' thinking, were really committed because the situation was calling for it, NOT because the character was an asshole (s/he could be one otherwise, tho), still needed to be done, ie. the cause was (in our subjective opinion) big enough; for example I'd classify Tyrion ordering the murder of that what's-his-face singer so he could keep his fav whore close, as not good enough. Tywin - surprisingly, I have a problem, I view most of his actions as very extreme. I guess annihilating the Tarbecks and the Reynes to the last one, since he'd decided to destroy those houses. Tyrion - sacrificing ships during the Battle of Blackwater to lure the enemy into a trap. And the very fact of siding with the incest born, psychopathic king and fighting a war for the wrong cause. Jaime - murder of Aerys, attempted murder of Bran, blacmailing Edmure. Cersei - offing Robert Baratheon, imprisoning Ned Stark. Daenerys - ordering to close the gates of... whichever Essos city it was, during the plague. Arya - several kills in situations essential to her escape. Sansa - sticking with Littlefinger's 'Marillion killed Lysa' story. Olenna - killing Joffrey and making Tyrion the scapegoat. Rhaegar - POSSIBLY that whole Lyanna's abduction circus, if he had basis to think it's essential to saving the world.
  13. Most cowardly deed in ASOIAF.

    It fits the story's setting. Also I never called the deed of pardoning his enemies cowardly, so not the topic. One thing we can agree on. Quite the opposite. I meant that equating high-profile deaths (the little Targs) to the regular victims of the word is quite silly in medieval terms. Oh, and they weren't a by-product of 'chaos of war' but targets of specifically crafted murder, so one reason more why equating this is a nonsense. The dude himself compares himself for Aerys. I think it stands fo 'shit'. As for him being a good man, some characters seem to think that and some don't, while the opinion about the quality of his kingship is the same from every side.
  14. Post your most hated POV's

    Davos - I like his character, but he's super-boring. Quentyn... or maybe some of his friends was narrating his chapters? - Yeah, that's how memorable he was.
  15. Most cowardly deed in ASOIAF.

    Well, kudos for that, but we were discussing if he was the one serving justice for the events of the wartime, and he was. So he was also the one to make a decision about Tywin. Tywin entered 'dead children' credit card ant the ATM Robert accepted it. That's all. Lol, you are really playing your 'medieval' card selectively. Sorry, not even stating my own opinion here, but the characters' in the books. Even Robert's own.