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  1. will read your thread...surely to be interesting As for the quote, I have always thought it was odd and kind of off the top of the head. After all, assuming Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree (as I think most do at this point) there is no reason to think arya couldn't have been trained by a suitable master at arms with a sword simply built for her stature....
  2. I thought about this for a while and thought Petyr too..especially because of the titan of braavos sigil which he replaces. In the end I think that Littlefinger is a red herring wrt the faceless plot and that it is Varys. The reason I eventually saw things this way was due to 1) Many of his statements about "no one" and "wanting peace" and his general distain for the power elite as well as 2) the fact that his plans for Targaryen restoration, if that is his true purpose, are so stupid that Hodor could have done better meaning either varys is incredibly dumb and blind and bad at planning (which seems incredibly unlikely) or that his stated purpose for his actions is totally bogus. In the end, despite what he says, every single thing Varys does subtlety destabilizes the realm and leads to chaos and war which is the exact thing that he says he doesn't want.
  3. I don't seem to recall this other than JH saying that the red god is owed three lives to arya which, in the course of this thread, I thought we concluded is totally bs. I could just be forgetting something -- it happens
  4. I agree with you here Robb Snow...which is why I qualified that I like the theory but believe it does need tweaking. In the end, the idea that the FM are a doomsday cult and that "Valar Morguhulis" is to be taken literally and not as an existential motto clears up a lot of unanswered questions in all of the books. Also: @devilish It is my belief that there is a war between ice and fire and that the faceless men, as former slaves of the Valyrian Dragon Lords, are on team ice. I think they want to bring down the wall. There is a bunch more and I have actually written a lot of it out but in the end the binary of ice and fire has been playing itself out in a big way. In a super quick nutshell: FM begin as slaves in the freehold...slaves of dragon lords. They consider their assassinations as a gift, dragon lords used fire magic, slaves were tormented with fire and so the anti fire credentials are clearly there. The first FM gives the gift to the most miserable of the slaves. This is all 400 years prior to Robert's Rebellion. Really hating fire magic it would make sense for the FM to seek out its opposite, Ice Magic. If Fire is the province of R'Holler then Ice would be the province of the great other. The FM go to Braavos which becomes a famously anti slavery, anti dragonlord city. So the claim is that the FM are a doomsday cult here...they are out to bring the gift to everyone...All Men Must Die. The shrines of the death dieties in the house of black and white include the black Goat of Quohor (whose statue is burned by the priests of R'Holler). The teams break up as R'Holler/fire/life/light and The Great Other/ice/death/darkness The FM are trying to pull full scale apocalypse by crashing out the wall and bringing on the next long night. I think Varys is absolutely a faceless man and the team captain of Operation Bring Down the Wall (and possibly the immortal first faceless man). This explains why he has made some really crazy choices. As a targ loyalist trying to restore Viscerys (a mentally unstable targ who believes that all the great lords of Westeros need to be killed) then Dany (the realities of dragons and dothraki hitting westeros would be devastating) and then Aegon all seem absolutely insane. Varys tells ned, while in the black cells, “a septon told me that as we sin so do we suffer, but if that is true why is it always the innocents who suffer when you high lords play your game of thrones?” His beef is with the whole system and all suffering. The whole point of the faceless men is to bring peace to the suffering. Ned asks Varys to what ends his motives are aimed, but Varys immediate response is just “peace” This is taken to mean a peaceful kingdom (which is in conflict with his big plan to return the Targ family) and more likely means peace as in everyone being dead. Prophecy and legend speaks of the Others riding a giant spider but no rangers, wildlings or anyone, including mance, has ever seen a spider north of the wall. Prophecy is about Varys. Vary's plays a large role in keeping Rhaegar from becoming king, in the events leading to Roberts rebellion, in Roberts death, in pretty much everything that destabilizes westeros. Varys riddle to Tyrion: “A sellsword stands with a king, a priest and a rich man. Each says to the sell sword to kill the other……who is left alive…power resides where men believe it resides.” The king is obvious…the king. The Rich man (any Lannister fits here) the priest (the high septon) but who is the sell sword. Tyrion actually asks this question. Varys replies “no one” It is Varys' plan to have Ned take the black. If JH kills Ned on the way to the wall and impersonates him, who better to destabilize the watch with? He is so beloved that it would take a decade before anyone in the watch dared to question anything he said. In a lot of ways I think the Qartheen Warlocks are a priestly side to the FM too. Loads of stuff wrapped into this. To answer, I think that the realm and the wall need to be destabilized in order to bring on the long night which is something the FM are very much up to. Whether they are successful or not is another story. I like to think that there would be an epilogue after ADOS where spring comes and there are no people but surviving the long winter was Ghost and Nymeria with the consciousness of a dead Jon and Arya in it.
  5. Not at all. That JH was in the black cells at all is absolutely absurd. Who caught him? Janos Slynt? I am a huge fan of @Toe's Grand Faceless Men Conspiracy Theory though I do think there are areas it is lacking and others that need refining. I will go on record and say that if Jaquen was in the black cells it was because he wanted to be there. I believe that Varys is a FM too and that the general plan was to have Ned take the black, JH to kill him and take his face and take up the roll of Ned on the wall to destabilize the Night's Watch. When Ned got his hair cut a little too short JH changed plans and headed over to the Citadel.
  6. 100% agree. I am on team kidnap here. At the very most I can say that he kidnapped her with words and stories of prophecy and not by sword point. I don't buy love or elopement. Either way, the start of this discussion, I believe, was just my assentation that Rhaegar was a shitty person regardless of which option it was. Even if you are 100% right through and through Rhaegar is still a dick
  7. Indeed....I will try to keep this one short. I am with you still here. This is where I can't follow you. If the adult crowned prince of a 300 year dynasty finds that the 16 year old daughter of one of his great lords is unhappy with her betrothal then the only possible thing for him to do is to keep his mouth shut. If, If, BIG IF, Lyanna was not arranged to be married to Robert yet AND if Rhaegar would publically wed her, and he if, prior to running off with her, went to Winterfell and spoke to Lord Rickard about the situation, then MAYYYYYYBBBEEEEE with enough smooth maneuvering, he could have got away with her as a second wife. But a marriage betrothal is not to be taken lightly in Westeros -- it is a point of honor to the girl, a point of honor to the father and, indeed, a holy point to both old gods and new. Add to this the less than honorable way in which it was pulled off and there is simply no way that Rickard could stand for it...especially given the diminished power of the Targaryen family under Areys and after Rhaegar's failure at Harrenall coupled with the Starks new found alliance with the Tully's. Further, even if you were right, even if RIckard swallowed his pride, ignored the way his daughter was dishonored and accepted the material breech of contract with Storm's End, Rhaegar had to know that he was alienating Robert who was a great lord in his own right. There would be no way that Robert would let this slide. Rhaegar making this move, even if his intentions were honorable, was going to alienate at least one Great Lord and Kingdom -- The Stormlands -- and I fail to see how he wouldn't alienate the North and with the North their alliances with the Riverlands and the Vale. There was the inevitability of totally destroying Targaryen relations with a quarter of the realm, the likely hood of destroying relations with half the realm and should all their allies join them then more than that. The moment Rhaegar took Lyanna he lost half the kingdoms I think this is where the misunderstanding stems from. This isn't about Brandon simply being hot headed. This is about breaking a marriage contract between two great lords, Rickard and Robert. Lyanna has absolutely nothing to do with this. I don't see how you can say that Rhaegar is horrified over Arey's actions when he returns from Dorne to lead his father's army against the very people you are suggesting he felt were horrifically treated.
  8. Yeah, this all makes sense to me for sure. Fortunately, I am in camp apocalypto and thing they will all be dead in the end but everything you say here seems right.
  9. Side note: A recapitulation of King Theodin and Grima Wormtongue with King Aerys and Undead Tywin in your hypothetical is almost impossible to avoid and just enough of a riff on LOTR fit with grrm in general.
  10. There is a very big difference between Jon Stark leading the northern forces as a supreme battle commander and him being given the hereditary title King in the North or even Lord of Winterfell before a true born stark however. Plus, with Jon's schtick in general I believe he would very quckly step aside and see Bran of Rickon take that title. That said, I have no doubt you are right that in this case Jon would play an instrumental role in leading the armies of the north. But wearing a crown before Ned's sons I don't see.
  11. Oh Seams, thanks for reminding me why I need to not take breaks from this board. How much fun! I will give you possible on this, but it is still a stretch. It would be just as easy to say that the War of the Ninepenny Kings had a profound impact on a young Tywin as war so often will do to men. So I think what is necessary to really buy into it would be 1) a solid motive (will get to that below) and 2) some more solid proof that Tywin is dead other than becoming more ruthless after returning from a war. It is true that Tywin was in a great position to both influence Aerys as well as make independent administrative decisions at the very top echelons of power -- as hand he actually sat the iron throne, but can you point to a single decision, judgment, choice or move that Tywin made that would have had a positive impact on any shadowbinders? Is there anything that Tywin did that would have aided the Shadowbinders? The only time he mentions them is when he tells Tyrion that there are rummers that Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from asshai. Nothing Tywin does as Warden of West or Hand of the King seems to have helped anyone in Asshai or won any favors for shadowbinder interests. I am still dubious but if, for the sake of discussion, we say that Tywin is being puppeted...is it possible that somehow Aryes madness is related here. I have mentioned in another post that I think it is possible that Tywin was directly responsible for the Defiance of Duskendale and that the original plan would have been to storm, have areys die, get Rhaegar on the throne, blame and destroy house Hollard as a scape goat and in turn the Darklyn's would, after a suitable time, get the dornish style charter from King Rhaegar that they wanted while Tywin would get Cersei as queen, rid of Aerys and possibly manage to get Jamie back as heir and out of the KG. When things didn't work out the Darklyn's had to be silenced and Aerys was came back mad as a hatter. If you want a big bit of tin foil we might say that the Darklyn's dabbled in some form of first men magic (they were petty kings and during the Second Blackgyre rebellion they were one of the Families that came to the aid of Brynden Rivers..there could be some argument to be made for a Bloodraven-Areys Madness-Tywin being controlled connection but it would be incredibly tentative. Manipulate the dragons...well done. Any idea who? To imitate a Targaryen there would be been a lot of physical features one would need to posses that are generally rare in the 7K which could reduce the number of possibilities drastically. Interesting. It is a shame we don't have more information on who a young Marwyn was mentored by. If this is true and the Citadel was involved and there is magic at hand that would give us some clues.
  12. Yeah, makes sense. I really see this insanity all leading up to the destruction of the throne.
  13. yeah, this is really what it boils down to. I am pretty sure Stannis' clock is running out. That said, I feel Stannis would have better claim than Marcella because vagina. But I guess the answer I really want is, given Stannis and Marcella dead who would a guy like Selmy, a by the book, honor driven guy, consider king
  14. It is not certain that the Northern Lords will follow a bastard, even Ned's bastard, especially one who has already taken a vow to hold no titles or lands and really especially if there are true born sons of Ned Stark around.
  15. While this is interesting I think there are some fundamental problems with it. First of all, there is no noticeable change in tywin's personality. The tywin we see at Tyrion's trial is much the same man that brought down the Reynes. In fact, Tywin's character from the earliest mentions of it to the way he spoke to Tyrion right before being killed show a very consistent character. If he at some point died, was shadow bound and puppeted then the shadow binder basically had him act the way he always acted. ALso, to what end would Tywin have been shadowbound? His actions all benefitted house Lannister. In no way did Tywin do anything that benefitted anyone other than Tywin. When it comes to tin foil, especially super natural tin foil, I always ask one important question....."If True, what does this mean for the story." If Tywin died at some point before or after the start of GOT and was brought back to life as a puppet only to act in a way consistent with how he had been his whole life anyway then it is a major bit of supernatural that doesn't give us anything which isn't grrms style at all.